Implemented Make public rules for streaming tournament games

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pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
Hello,

I'm making a suggestion on tournament game streaming rules because a tournament director has told me this was discussed by tournament directors but no public conclusion was made.

My core suggestion is that the tournament directors should make public rules about streaming tournament games either in this rules and general guidelines thread or another thread. There are at least three reasons we need this: 1) to be fair to people who want to stream but are concerned they may be punished if they are breaking ghosting rules, 2) to be fair and consistent if there is indeed streaming going on already so nobody is unfairly advantaged/disadvantaged and 3) to be fair to people who want to participate in streams (but not necessarily stream themselves) and not break Smogon rules.

I am not strongly suggesting what the rules should be - of course I have thoughts on this and thoughts on areas on where and why rules should be made, but simply having rules in the first place is the most important part and would likely sufficiently answer my three concerns previously mentioned.

With that in mind, I am briefly outlining two topics to help guide discussion but if we go in another direction, that's fine by me.

1) Why should we have rules on streaming?

All the reasons for rules I previously mentioned boil down to fairness. We need public rules so everyone knows what they're getting into as they commit to playing Pokemon. In this sense, requesting streaming game rules isn't very different from requesting rules on scheduling - it's currently standard procedure for example that if you're 15 minutes late to a game and you don't ping your opponent after they ping you, your opponent can take an activity win. Obviously some cases may have gray area for various factors, but this rule covers the vast majority of cases and makes life easier for hosts and promotes the image of fairness when our tight-knit community often has hosts ruling for their friends.

Fairness is most important and most difficult to achieve when their is ambiguity in what is permissible, i.e., when there is ambiguity in the rules. Right now, it's not clear to me how our rules on ghosting interact with streaming.

Tournament Rules and General Guidelines said:
Ghosting: Ghosting is defined as giving any piece of advice to someone playing a game. Any form of direct advice is considered ghosting. A player should be able to make their own decisions based on what they observe by themselves. Asking for suggestions or affirmation adds an unfair dynamic and greatly reduces the chances of making mistakes. Our tournaments are designed to be tests of individual skill, not the skill of one player with the support of others providing suggestions or preventing bad plays. Playing a game while in a voice call with someone else will always be treated as ghosting of the highest severity.
A literal reading of this definition to me means there are currently no restrictions on streaming any tournament game. A streamer could give direct advice on an ongoing game but as long as they are not directly giving it to a player, this isn't ghosting.

The ambiguity comes from Smogon authority. I've been informed by more than one authority member that there needs to be a 1 minute delay on any stream of a live tournament game or ladder game if it's a ladder tour, but if there's this requirement communicated via chats, why isn't it in a public place so people can know about it?

It's true that streaming is on a different platform from what Smogon normally regulates - Twitch/YouTube isn't Smogon/PS/Smogon affiliated discords. But the fact is, Smogon regulates behavior all the time outside official Smogon places. The key for Smogon I see is if Smogon users are involved. As long as it is our players raising these questions and participating in these activities, I feel like the TDs have a responsibility to make their position known.

2) What should the rules cover?

I'm honestly spitballing here and much of this might not be worth discussing, but maybe the best sign of it being worth discussing if there's organic discussion on it.

Anyways, some topics:
  • If there's indeed a one minute delay necessary, fine, but I think we should discuss how long the delay should be if there is one? Why is one minute the magic number?
  • Is it different for streaming team tour games vs your own games vs completely unrelated games?
    • What about rules for ladder games in ladder tours?
  • Should stream chats have a rule saying something to the effect of "Please don't give advice to the player when they are playing a tournament game" - is that something we should be requiring?
  • What would the punishment be if these hypothetical rules are broken?

Anyways, I'd like to emphasize again, my main point is I'd be grateful if TD's could make the rules clear - even if there are no rules (which I think is a very bad decision but I digress, we can discuss that later if people end up supporting no rules at all) - at least that should be made clear so people know what they are allowed to do.

Thank you for any input and the efforts of all TDs, players, and Smogon members involved.
 

Finchinator

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  • If there's indeed a one minute delay necessary, fine, but I think we should discuss how long the delay should be if there is one? Why is one minute the magic number?
I personally have thought of 30 seconds and 60 seconds as valid time delays. I know some others have mentioned 90 seconds, too, but this seems a bit much.

I want to get ahead of it though: any number is arbitrary unless we use the full duration of the PS timer, which is 5 minutes and far too excessive. So any number will effectively be a "magic number" as you say. It is mostly going off of feel. I feel 60 seconds is a big disadvantage for someone playing on a tight timer, but in the same vein 61 seconds is slightly more while getting it further from the action and 59 is slightly less while getting it closer to reality. A round number just always made sense to me, and I would personally (just speaking for me, not all TDs) be ok with codifying something pertaining to 60 or a little higher.
Is it different for streaming team tour games vs your own games vs completely unrelated games?
I think people can do whatever they want for their own individual games and proceed at their own risk, but I think any game involving someone else in a team tour or individual tour or circuit tour should be adhering to a stream delay time (which I assume this thread will devolve into deciding).
What about rules for ladder games in ladder tours?
I think any delay for OLT streaming should have to adhere to the same rules for regular tournaments. We do not let OLT ladderers play in call or receive ghosting to begin with, so the rules should line up fully.
Should stream chats have a rule saying something to the effect of "Please don't give advice to the player when they are playing a tournament game" - is that something we should be requiring?
I think this becomes hard to enforce since the streaming platform is not Smogon affiliated directly -- i.e: Twitch/YouTube are not Smogon. If people directly linked to Smogon are acting out in very malicious ways (i.e: bigoted behavior or harassment) in a Twitch chat, we will act on a report, but I think it cannot be moderated quite the same as smogtours when it comes to discussing plays just because it is not the same as PS.
What would the punishment be if these hypothetical rules are broken?
A tourban in the realm of ghosting, but potentially a bit less in terms of length depending on the situation. Not enough precedent here to give a firm answer, but perhaps this thread can go a long way towards setting the bar. I would think more like a few months or even a warning/non-TB infract rather than a full year if you are just streaming with less delay.
 
What would be excessive about a 5 minute delay? Coming from other competitive games, I've anecdotally found that a 5 minute delay is pretty standard for turn based games of this pace. It pretty much eliminates any possibility that the chat could have an effect on the outcome of the game.
 

MANNAT

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5-minute delay should absolutely be done, useful information can still be given with a large delay. For example, if the streamer knows one of the teams and reads out the sets at team preview, that can absolutely be useful 30, 60, or even 90 seconds later. As far as I'm concerned, the longer the stream delay, the better with this system. It's very easy to game the system and cheat while escaping prosecution, let's not make it any easier.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
I'm mainly trying to just bump this thread so we can get rules, I'll emphasize again I don't feel strongly on what the rules are, as long as we have rules that we can follow. Or even an acknowledgement there are no rules.

What shouldn't continue is a couple of moderators telling me on discord a 60 second delay is the rule but having this written nowhere for other people to be aware of and follow.

I will reply to just one thing (not doing your post justice, you mention other things as well but I think this one has a straightfoward reply:

I think people can do whatever they want for their own individual games and proceed at their own risk, but I think any game involving someone else in a team tour or individual tour or circuit tour should be adhering to a stream delay time (which I assume this thread will devolve into deciding).
You seem to be implying here that the person doing their own game is simply risking their own game (someone might snipe them), and if they want to play with that risk, it is okay. That's definitely a very valid point here, all I want you to know is it might still be unfair because the player might not just be risking, but getting live help from an audience.

You later say

"I think this becomes hard to enforce since the streaming platform is not Smogon affiliated directly -- i.e: Twitch/YouTube are not Smogon. If people directly linked to Smogon are acting out in very malicious ways (i.e: bigoted behavior or harassment) in a Twitch chat, we will act on a report, but I think it cannot be moderated quite the same as smogtours when it comes to discussing plays just because it is not the same as PS."

Everything you say is true.

But if someone is ghosting on an unaffiliated Discord server, you guys have (most would agree rightfully), punished the cheaters if you get convincing evidence. Why would this not be the same for YouTube or Twitch? It's simply a different program/website.

Apologies if none of this is making sense or making a clear request, really, the main purpose of this post is to bump the thread so the TDs can resolve it.
 

Finchinator

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Why would this not be the same for YouTube or Twitch? It's simply a different program/website.
I am referring to people without Smogon accounts. I cannot tournament ban a random stream viewer who does not have an account to participate in tournaments to begin with. If someone linked to Smogon violates rules, we will act as we have in other recent cases pertaining to Twitch chats.

I think this thread needs more people (especially with an interest in streaming or following streams) to provide input. I’d love to hear from more people and reach some verdict here once my LOA is over next week.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
I am referring to people without Smogon accounts. I cannot tournament ban a random stream viewer who does not have an account to participate in tournaments to begin with. If someone linked to Smogon violates rules, we will act as we have in other recent cases pertaining to Twitch chats.

I think this thread needs more people (especially with an interest in streaming or following streams) to provide input. I’d love to hear from more people and reach some verdict here once my LOA is over next week.
Well you can't ban random discord users who don't have Smogon either.

So you're saying if you found out someone on YouTube had a Smogon account and ghosted someone in a tour game and you had evidence of this, you'd punish them. Right? If so, then we're clear here.
 

Finchinator

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Well you can't ban random discord users who don't have Smogon either.
Random discord users aren’t allowed in Smogon servers and seldom, if ever, surface in team tournament chats or circles. But streaming and content creation attracts many people who aren’t owners of Smogon accounts in comment sections and live chats.
So you're saying if you found out someone on YouTube had a Smogon account and ghosted someone in a tour game and you had evidence of this, you'd punish them. Right? If so, then we're clear here.
We recently infracted numerous people for highly inappropriate conduct in Twitch chats, so I don’t see why this would be any different. Reporting it and proving it may require some investigation, but rules are rules and should be applied to all of our users.
 

pokemonisfun

Banned deucer.
The guide to this subforum says:


The TD team will strive to reach a conclusion within 2 weeks of a thread being started. Whether that conclusion is to keep the status quo or change something is irrelevant as long as one is reached. Exceptions can be made in the event of extremely lively and/or controversial discussions, but should be avoided.
Again, I don't really mind what the rule is or even if you end up saying there is no rule, but can we please have a ruling?
 

kaori

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I think this thread needs more people (especially with an interest in streaming or following streams) to provide input. I’d love to hear from more people and reach some verdict here once my LOA is over next week.
I've streamed a few DPL games recently so I'll give a couple brief thoughts on it.

Streaming with a full 5 minute delay makes for a pretty bad viewing product, the actual game could already be over or close to it by the time you even begin covering it (Especially formats like Doubles with quicker games). There's little incentive to listen live if it's going to be extremely delayed, while a 60 second delay or something similar is much more digestible.

Even with a 5 minute delay, this isn't stopping a player from potentially receiving beneficial information, such as commentators talking about the overall matchup on team preview, speculating on sets, and so forth. Turn by turn ghosting isn't the only thing possible with streams. There is virtually no way to be airtight about ghosting when it comes to streaming outside of turning the streaming product into something on the level of a Smogtours lobby, in which case who the fuck is going to watch that anyway.

The options as I see them are:

a) 60 second delay
b) 5 minute delay
c) Live streaming is not allowed in order to prevent ghosting, or the content able to be broadcast is heavily restricted

Realistically speaking, anybody that wants to ghost will simply do so in a private voice chat or some other medium. Risking a tourban on something that is specifically designed to be public would be kind of ridiculous. Option A gives the best balance of production value and anti-ghosting in my opinion. I think B is just a half measure that doesn't really satisfy the production value crowd or the anti-ghosting crowd either. C would suck for obvious reasons but if the primary concern here is ghosting, it's the only one that actually does its job.
 
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Lily

wouldn't that be fine, dear
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Realistically speaking, anybody that wants to ghost will simply do so in a private voice chat or some other medium. Risking a tourban on something that is specifically designed to be public would be kind of ridiculous.
Pinch of salt etc bc I've only streamed mons like 3 times in my life but I agree w/ this post and would go even further. The quote here has me wondering - do we even need delays at that point? If someone is streaming it's pretty much guaranteed that they aren't going to be looking for help during their games, I think that logic holds up perfectly fine, so like, what does a delay even do? I suppose it helps with combatting unsolicited ghosting but between the smogtours lobby and just randomly pming people, this is something that people are gonna do anyway if they for some reason want to do it. To me the idea that people would drop hit-and-run game advice that the streamer would actually care about is kinda nuts and a much more on-paper issue than a real one

To me it seems like it'd just be better to handle suspected cases of stream ghosting case by case rather than have a rule bc it just doesn't really seem like an issue. If anything it's probably more important to mandate "no ghosting during tournaments" in the streamers own rules section, which is better for new viewers who may not be totally aware of Smogon rules.

60sec delay is probably fine too, esp since streamers probably should not be interacting with chat until after the game anyway, but it just feels unnecessary - at least atm, given how small the streaming scene is. Maybe if time goes on and it becomes a bigger issue, fules can be revised, but for now I think it's fine to keep at at 0 or 60.

Edit: has been pointed out to me that the delay is more applicable when streaming -other people's- games and commentating over them, so fair enough there. 1min seems fine still
 
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DerpySuX

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I know that smogon meta games use a different timer function than official console formats (BSS and VGC) but I would like to point out that the chess timer in those formats is 1 minute per turn, so a 1 minute delay seems relatively reasonable to enforce.


If someone is streaming it's pretty much guaranteed that they aren't going to be looking for help during their games
While generally this is true, I’ve seen a few instances of chat pointing out options that the streamer isn’t aware of and might not have picked up on during their turn. Sometimes you miss things no matter how skilled you are, and having an extra set of eyes, or in some cases, several, to analyze the situation in real-time with you is still an advantage and should be addressed imo.
 

TyCarter

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While generally this is true, I’ve seen a few instances of chat pointing out options that the streamer isn’t aware of and might not have picked up on during their turn. Sometimes you miss things no matter how skilled you are, and having an extra set of eyes, or in some cases, several, to analyze the situation in real-time with you is still an advantage and should be addressed imo.
Streaming on youtube can disable live chat entirely, while on twitch this isn't possible to my knowledge although the person streaming can create their own list of "ban words"/"ban phrases" which would be a possible way to deal with this on top of the 1 minute delay for twitch.

Edit: you can probably also do members/subscribers/followers only chat too afaik to at least limit randoms coming in and unintentionally ghosting kinda thing
 
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Finchinator

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I apologize for the delay in finalizing this.

After internal discussion, the Tournament Director team has concluded that any stream of a live Smogon Tournament game must include a two minute stream delay. Keep in mind that watching a stream of your own game is equivalent to being in a call during your own game, qualifying it as a form of being ghosted.

We feel this is the most appropriate response to the worries cited in this thread about potential influence on the game while still not derailing the streams themselves in an excessive fashion. There is no truly perfect solution in this situation, but we feel this closely aligns with our needs on the matter.

Tagging pokemonisfun as this was their topic — thanks for bringing it up and your patience!
 
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