Lost in Translation: Shoddy 2 DS

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"Yeah, gotta agree, it isn't quite as fast as whipping stuff up in shoddy, but with pokesav, AR, or RNG (pick your flavor) you can have battleworthy DS mons pretty snappylike. If I want any mon, I just RNG it. Might take an evening at most. A half hour at least."

If you actually want to battle, RNG. If you don't care about being a filthy cheater, go ahead and AR, no one that's not a lazy ignoramus will take you seriously though.
You're calling me a troll? Jesus Christ, I'm tired of your "OMG you don't believe what I believe YOU ARE WRONG" attitiude. You are purposely ignoring everybody's valid points so you don't have to admit you're wrong. Also, efficient=/=lazy. You have still not addressed the efficiency issue. Every single post by you has been "SAV is for loozers, RNG is legit because I say so".

RNGing is legit, it isn't cheating. Can't do it? Fine, but don't call it cheating. It requires no external devices so shut up about it already people. Do you use an IV Checker? Yeah? Filthy cheaters.
What. The. Fuck. I feel like I am being massively trolled here. So it's okay for you to repeatedly say that you believe SAV isn't legit, yet we are not allowed to say that we believe RNG isn't legit? Seriously? And IV checkers do not help you get better Pokemon, it's simply telling you what you have. You're logic is horribly flawed and hypocritical. Or you're a troll. If so, please try and fix either or both. If you respond to anything in this post, please let it be this. SAV is more efficient than RNG. True or False? I say true.
 
Also, if simply saying that not using an outside device were grounds for legitimacy the Beserk Gene Glitch would not be banned.

Similar to RNG abuse both are done in-game with no (direct) help from any outside devices. Therefore, according to the argument my Choice Scarf Machamp with Shear Cold is legal. It passed a hack check at VGC (I didn't use it but it was sitting in my box, plain as day) therefore it is legitimate and I can use it on Wi-fi.
It most certainly is illegal. The reason they didn't dq you for it was because they only check pokemon in your party/on your team sheet. It was not subject to any test.

Yes it is. You are manipulating the game to obtain exactly what you want in an efficient way.You aren't supposed to be able to manipulate the RNG. AFAIK, GameFreak does not approve of RNG abusing, so apparently the creators consider it cheating. No I don't have a link, but I'm not going through the B&W threads for it.

It is very efficient. It takes a lot less time than RNG, and you end up with the same product. How is it not efficient?
To me, Gamefreak's actions to this point say otherwise.

RNG abuse in Ruby, Sapphire, FireRed, and LeafGreen was already next to impossible with dynamic seeds and the frame advancing 60 times per second. But in every game they've released after those four, RNG abuse has been downright simple to pull off. Not only that, it's become easier in the newer games. The frames in 4th generation games no longer advance constantly, making it possible to RNG bred shiny pokemon, and making RNG abuse in general much easier. You'd think if they truly disapproved of RNG abuse, Gamefreak would have made it harder, not easier, at least in the later games like Platinum or HGSS.
 
I concur with you on this point, and I will just have to concede that Smogon uses shoddy, and that if you breed the old fashioned way, then it is difficult to keep up with tier changes. This is true especially if you play in the lower tiers (or, for example, spend a while SRing for a good Raikou with HP grass.)

There is also no denying that the wifi metagame is different. for a long while, the lack of good suicunes, celebis, and the extreme rarity of event pokemon such as wishbliss meant the that metagame took a different shape. I never played shoddy too much, so i dont usually even think about Rotom A.
 
Again, I find the creation process rewarding; a win counts for a lot more when you put the effort into creating the pokemon yourself, not just the moveset. That's my take on it.
Said wonderfully. I however also like the fast paced nature of the sim. So I sim and make my own pokes.

It's the fact that your standards of play dictate mine in the general community that I sometimes find frustrating.
Again well said. I feel the same. Theoretical pokemon should stay in shoddy while real legitamely obtained pokes should be present on wifi. I find it frustrating that shoddy creates a community that sees hacking as legit.

But that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the data and number crunching compiled by the many fine folks that develop these tiers in the first place. This thread was intended to discuss how these two play fields don't work the same way, but the standards of one dominate those of the other.
It is thanks to the secondary programs and the desire to stay up to date with shoddy's tiering. However, like you pointed out shoddy's tiering is based on a completely different metagame (assuming everyone plays ethically)
 
We can go back and forth on the RNG/SAV debate, here's my personal opinion. There is an extremely significant difference between RNG and SAV that makes one, in my opinion, cheating, and the other "legit". SAV is you actually creating your own Pokemon, using another foreign program that Game Freak does not approve of and then sending this "Pokemon" to the game. RNG is you understanding how the game works and attempting to provide for yourself better results. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS. Who here checks Serebii to find where you can get a slowpoke in diamond or pearl, or used a reference book when they were a kid to see what Pokemon Elite Four members have? Ok, what's the difference?? Somebody had to start up the game, research some information, and has generously decided to share it with everyone so that they, too, might be able to use their information. If you're like me, you know what Pokemon the Elite Four has and thus do not need "external guides" to beat the Elite Four. Somebody could be stumbling along breeding and stuff and get a good Pokemon and say, "Huh! That's really swell. Everytime I breed, I'm going to do this the exact same way, so that my Pokemon are all as good as this one!" Then they aren't even using another program, they just know how to do well in a game because of experience, just like me with the Elite Four. Is that wrong?

If you want to get technical, I think that the difference between RNG and SAV is the presence of an external program creating the Pokemon instead of the game creating the Pokemon.

"But Smith, isn't RNG reporter another program?" Not in the sense you're probably thinking of. RNG is a reference program, not a creation program. In other words, RNG Reporter does not say, "Here's your level 100 31/31/31/31/31/31 Shiny Rayquaza". It says, "Oh, you want an awesome Rayquaza? Here's how you do it". In the long run, you're still rummaging through some grass or breeding some Pokemon or doing something IN-GAME to, basically, find your own Pokemon. If I may use my guidebook example, say the guide says, "You can find a rare item at night on Route 500!" And then you go and find it. Is this cheating? Of course not, so why is RNG? "You can find a rare Pokemon at precisely 25:67 on Route 500!" is what RNG tells you, if I may simplify it. Bolded words are changed words.

When using SAV, you are not playing Pokemon. Pokemon is a game where you catch Pokemon and battle them against each other, and the game recognizes no difference between Joe's Charaizard with Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Fire Spin/Hyper Beam and your RNG'd Metagross. In the game's eyes, you went out in the tall grass and found yourself a Beldum, and wow aren't you lucky! It's shiny and wow aren't you lucky! It has 31's in every stat. But the game doesn't know that you're lucky, because for all it knows you're trying to find a silver beldum so that your whole team has a colour theme and this golden plague just threw a wrench in your plans! In other words, the game doesn't know that you just hit the jackpot, and more importantly, it doesn't know that you know you just hit the jackpot because the jackpot is objective. If just getting lucky (or as I've discussed, unlucky or average or whatever) is cheating, then I don't know what isn't. If you spend 500+ hours actually catching pidgeys until you get one that's perfect, and you finally catch one after 1 million pidgeys, it is NOT DIFFERENT AT ALL FROM THE ONE YOU RNG'd, because for all the game knows, you had set aside a week just to catch this pidgey and the first one you found just so happened to be perfect. When you use SAV, you are NOT rummaging through tall grass to find Pidgeys, you are dismantling the shroud of reality set up by the game and give the game a message in a code only it understands saying to produce the Pokemon you need. Think of it this way. You are trying to find a needle in a haystack. In RNG, you know that the haystack behaves in such a way that the needle is produced at this part of the haystack at this time of day, hour and year, after your one friend who knows fucking everything about haystacks posted on the web his findings after exhaustive years of researching haystacks. In SAV, you are taking a needle out of your pocket and giving it to your friend and saying, "Hey Bob. Put this needle in a haystack at X by Y by Z". Then you check back after he's done and pull it out of the exact place you told him to put it. In the first example, did you find a needle? Yes, you used your knowledge of haystacks to give you the results you wanted. In the second example? No, you're the one that put it there, asshole.

So, in summary, because I realize this a wall of text:

Rng: Because I know that I get a good Pokemon if I do this, I'll do it. I am finding a Pokemon that the game has provided, utilizing my knowledge of how the game performs. This is legal.

Sav: If I tell a machine to tell the game to give me a good Pokemon, then I will get one. I am producing my own Pokemon. This is not legal.

CONCLUSION: If you want to battle using hacked Pokemon, it is not fair to the people who played the game to find their Pokemon. Battle with other hackers. I am NOT saying hackers are bad or evil or crooked, I'm just saying it's not a legitimate process of finding Pokemon and really shouldn't be used in a competitive by nature game.

Postscript: There is a satisfaction that comes with winning a game with your Pokemon, that you found and raised. I could have trade some high-level Pokemon over to beat some hard gym leaders for me, but I trained my own Pokemon and felt proud when they won because of my efforts. Same for Wifi. Of course this is objective and not a real arguement, so I didn't post it in the main body of my post.

Postpostscript: Please excuse any small errors with the grammar of this post, I've been typing for a while.

edit/postpostpostscript: I'm going to again emphasize that I hold nothing against you who use a SAV, I understand your points on using it. I just feel that people saying that RNG is illegal/SAV is legal need to be addressed, but again it is not, "wrong", to hack, so long as you acknowledge that you are hacking the game and realize that you have an advantage over your RNGing peers. I do NOT intend to start an argument with any of you over the stupidity of RNGers or the disintegrity of SAVers.
 

SJCrew

Believer, going on a journey...
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hacking for something is never competitive. Lazy people will only agree that legal hacks can exist, which they can't. No hack is legal or legit, ever.

Competitive = everyone trying to win in a fair game.
Cheating = hacking
Cheating = not a fair game

The meaning of competitive doesn't change depending on what community you are in.
The only difference between the Wifi and Shoddy players is that you take hours to do the same thing we can in seconds. We're all here to do one thing: compete in Pokemon battles. It doesn't matter how long you take to train your team, what matters is strategy and winning with said strategies. This is what Smogon is about.

Taking longer to play the game does not make you better than anyone. You have no moral high ground. You may get a certain degree of satisfaction out of training your Pokemon, but that is not it any way important to the actual competition involved.

Following your logic of competitiveness, playing, and winning, why even tier? Just use ubers.
The standard metagame is composed of the Pokemon that are used the most. If certain Pokemon have an unfair advantage over the vast majority of the standard metagame, those Pokemon are banned.

Ubers are banned because having them on a team is always an unfair advantage. They don't necessarily counter one another, and unbanning them all is just going to center focus around the handful of Pokemon that have the advantage. This was decided by our community to be uncharacteristic of favorable metagame.
 
It most certainly is illegal. The reason they didn't dq you for it was because they only check pokemon in your party/on your team sheet. It was not subject to any test.



To me, Gamefreak's actions to this point say otherwise.

RNG abuse in Ruby, Sapphire, FireRed, and LeafGreen was already next to impossible with dynamic seeds and the frame advancing 60 times per second. But in every game they've released after those four, RNG abuse has been downright simple to pull off. Not only that, it's become easier in the newer games. The frames in 4th generation games no longer advance constantly, making it possible to RNG bred shiny pokemon, and making RNG abuse in general much easier. You'd think if they truly disapproved of RNG abuse, Gamefreak would have made it harder, not easier, at least in the later games like Platinum or HGSS.
To your first point, not true. After a few rounds they took everyone's cartridge and went into another room where hack checks were performed. There is no way that Machamp will look any different than any other Machamp that is legitimately obtained. Why? Because I caught a Machop one day and after it evolved traded it to evolve it again. The Beserk Gene Glitch is not hacking the same way RNG abuse is not hacking.
Now, don't get me wrong I don't think using the Beserk Gene Glitch is okay. I was countering the implication that RNG abuse was okay to do because it required no extra devices.
To clarify here, I don't think abusing the RNG is wrong, per se. It does, however, defeat the spirit of the game the same way simply hacking in a Pokemon does. I do think there is something wrong with RNG abusers who "refuse to play with hackers" that SAV in their teams (or make them with an AR, the distinction is unimportant). If you want to change the clock on your DS to February 3rd 2081 that's your business. But don't change the clock and catch a Modest 31/31/31... Heatran and then refuse to play with the Heatran that I gave the IVs for HP Grass.


Also, to your second point: do you really think they made RNG abuse easier on purpose? I would bet a LOT of money that it has more to do with the nature of the Nintendo DS and the programming language for its games (as opposed to the Game Boy Advance system) than anything intentional or not Game Freak did concerning the Random Number Generator.


P.S. @The Duderino, thank you for actually making a post On-Topic with the OP.
 

haunter

Banned deucer.
Apparently there's not much to add to what had already been said in the threads I linked in my previous post. If the best you can do is insulting each other with this off-topic bullshit, then I better lock this thread.
 
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