Resource Little Cup UU Viability Rankings

[Joltage]

Spoink is ranked cause Thick Fat, good speed and movepool I guess.
Elgyem seems p outclassed by Solosis. I agree with the rest of the propositions.

But Elgyem is quite a bit bulkier than Solosis, has just as much coverage, and when factoring in analytic, hits just as hard if not harder than Solosis.

Comparative Calcs

236+ SpA Analytic Elgyem Psychic vs. 236 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Growlithe: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)

240+ SpA Solosis Psychic vs. 236 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Growlithe: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15)

236+ SpA Elgyem Psychic vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)

240+ SpA Solosis Psychic vs. 228 HP / 140+ SpD Eviolite Lileep: 7-10 (26.9 - 38.4%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
(7, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)

236+ SpA Analytic Elgyem Psychic vs. 228 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Shellos: 12-15 (44.4 - 55.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15)

240+ SpA Solosis Psychic vs. 228 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Shellos: 10-13 (37 - 48.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(10, 10, 10, 10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

And regarding Spoink, while it's speed is decent, it's movepool really isn't that spectacular, especially when compared to the other psychics in the tier. And I don't really see a whole lot of situations where thick fat would be useful, other than against stuff like Amaura. (Whom Spoink actually checks really well now that I look at it) Maybe Spoink can be ranked, but imo, it is not as good as any of the other relevant Psychics in the tier, such as Slowpoke, Natu, Inkay, Smoochum, Elgyem, or Solosis.

 

[Anthiese]

Elgyem has Analytic which gives it a free LO boost when something comes in on it.

Options:

Psychic
Signal Beam
Shadow Ball
Thunderbolt

Recover
Nasty Plot
Trick Room
Thunder Wave

defenses are higher than solosis which are a plus in my eyes. has 4mss like it as well :(

Spoink's speed is average at best also as is it's movepool.

Also Dour's been banned. You need to catch up Svalk.

also ty Joltage for coverin my tush.

 

[Camden]

Any of all updates to the rankings will be considered after the tier shift. Don't worry, I'm certainly not ignoring you guys.

 

[Svalkenaeres]

Elgyem has Analytic which gives it a free LO boost when something comes in on it.

Options:

Psychic
Signal Beam
Shadow Ball
Thunderbolt

Recover
Nasty Plot
Trick Room
Thunder Wave

defenses are higher than solosis which are a plus in my eyes. has 4mss like it as well :(

Spoink's speed is average at best also as is it's movepool.

Also Dour's been banned. You need to catch up Svalk.

also ty Joltage for coverin my tush.

I ignored the ban, really sorry for this. I don't know why I thought it was still allowed.

Catch up ? You probably need a bit of moderation. When a person made a mistake in a subject where I'm good, (and probably there is a lot of subjects where i'm better than you.) I don't say that he should catch up. I don't like contempt, I prefer to not answering.

When you see that Solosis has Magic Guard and Regenerator, Analytics seems really a poor ability.
And the mon is not fast, so this is not even a cool Analytics as Magnemite. Also his bulk is cool but his typing seriously cripples him.
I don't think Elgyem is bad, I just think Solosis is better. I already used this for an unranked team in LC OU, six months before and I replaced
Elgyem by Solosis Magic Guard, because they shared the same counters and Elgyem was still beaten even with Analytic boost, and even if Solosis was beaten too, he was more useful most of the time cause Magic Guard + Sash or LO, allowing either to set u easily Trick Room or to hit like a nuke. I tried even Defensive Solosis with Regenerator (Sympathic but he has huge difficulties).

I was not trying to argue for Spoink, I was searching a possible explanation for his rank (word "guessing"). Spoink has a decent Taunt, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, Pain Split, Dual Screens and pseudo heal move in the form of Recycle + Berry Juice. It can wall Amaura/Snover (Ice stuff) and probably things like Numel. . There are some possible niches. I dont know if it's enough but there is probably a reason that this thing is C.

 

[Berks]

And the mon is not fast, so this is not even a cool Analytics as Magnemite.

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but you do know how Analytic works, right?? Elgyem being slow is really good for it being Analytic??

 

[Anthiese]

I ignored the ban, really sorry for this. I don't know why I thought it was still allowed.

Catch up ? You probably need a bit of moderation. When a person made a mistake in a subject where I'm good, (and probably there is a lot of subjects where i'm better than you.) I don't say that he should catch up. I don't like contempt, I prefer to not answering.

When you see that Solosis has Magic Guard and Regenerator, Analytics seems really a poor ability.
And the mon is not fast, so this is not even a cool Analytics as Magnemite. Also his bulk is cool but his typing seriously cripples him.
I don't think Elgyem is bad, I just think Solosis is better. I already used this for an unranked team in LC OU, six months before and I replaced
Elgyem by Solosis Magic Guard, because they shared the same counters and Elgyem was still beaten even with Analytic boost, and even if Solosis was beaten too, he was more useful most of the time cause Magic Guard + Sash or LO, allowing either to set u easily Trick Room or to hit like a nuke. I tried even Defensive Solosis with Regenerator (Sympathic but he has huge difficulties).

I was not trying to argue for Spoink, I was searching a possible explanation for his rank (word "guessing"). Spoink has a decent Taunt, Thunder Wave, Heal Bell, Pain Split, Dual Screens and pseudo heal move in the form of Recycle + Berry Juice. It can wall Amaura/Snover (Ice stuff) and probably things like Numel. . There are some possible niches. I dont know if it's enough but there is probably a reason that this thing is C.

You need to calm yourself. Im saying you need to catch up on what's banned / unbanned. Not on your actual playing skill. If you wanna get down and dirty with me in some matches that's fine but dont take me saying you need to catch up on some information as a personal attack.

Moving on to the rest of your post, Why compare a Pokemon who's banned from this meta to one who's in it?

Also talking about how a mon fares in LC OU doesnt really help it's case it and LC UU since they are two completely different metagames.

Now if you're willing to talk about how Solosis and Elgyem fare in LC UU then we can get on with this dicussion.

 

[Bughouse]

Cubone and pretty much any good Torchic pass recipient need to be higher than C. If Torchic is A-, then its recipient partners should be somewhere in B at worst (higher if they're also quite good without the speed boost)

Also Magby in B+ makes me chuckle

 

[shiloh]

Can we also move Frillish up to at least A-. It is a staple on most of the teams I make as it fills so many rolls. On more defensive teams its a great Spinblocker with Taunt / Hex / Wisp / Recover, it can also use TR over Taunt on TR teams. The offensive set is also amazing as a spinblocker with Water Spout having so few switch ins. Overall its a great mon and B really doesn't do it justice.

 

[Camden]

Tbh, I'm not sure why Spoink and Elgyem aren't ranked the way they should be. Also, Frillish and Tentacool are both amazing in this meta and will definitely see a rise after the shift.

I hope that despite any sort of language barriers, we can understand each others' arguments and cooperatively discuss this metagame. I am aware that these viability rankings are mostly outdated but I will guarantee that immediately after the shift (hopefully tomorrow) I will have the council formed and we will begin remodeling these rankings. I personally see a lot of changes that need to be made and I can't wait to do them.

 

[Camden]

Alright ladies and gents, the tier shift has occurred! We unfortunately lost three decent Pokemon and gained back virtually nothing. I am keeping my promise though, and updates will be made to the viability rankings. We will begin by performing a complete overhaul, seeing as how outdated this list is. Any suggestions you have for moving something up or down will be noted. I'm really excited about this.

 

[Max Carvalho]

Imo, pump to A- (altho I feel like its A material), simply best spinblocker in the metagame, can survive 2HKO from shrew and then synth; it hates Scald from Tentacool, but also switch ins ez. As how this meta has a great number of viable spinners, it's amazing how pump can switch in all of them. Maybe it shouldn't be A due to so many solid threats here forcing pump out, but I find Pump to be a no-brainer in honesty as a spinblocker for offensive teams one would build.

 

[Camden]

Big load of updates coming your way from the LC UU council:


Natu -> A-
Helioptile -> A-
Torchic -> A
Frillish -> A
Sandile -> A
Tailow -> S
Doduo -> S
Riolu -> S
Hippo -> A+
Sandshrew -> A
Venipede -> B-
Growlithe -> A-
Geodude -> B
Clauncher -> C
Finneon -> B
Starly -> Unranked
Cranidos -> A-
Tyrunt -> A-
Zorua -> B
Joltik -> B- / C
Kabuto -> A-
Mincinno -> B+
Meowth -> B
Magby -> A
Pumpkaboo-Everything -> A
Spinarak -> A+

I kinda wanna put Magby in A+, or maybe even S, but I'd rather hear more opinions on it first.

 

[Berks]

Magby to A+
Sewaddle to B-

More to come

 

[Joltage]

Smoochum for B

I shit you not, Life Orb Smooch 2HKOs the entire tier sans like Lickitung and SpDef Mantyke (maybe a few others but very few) after rocks. Also she makes a cool scarfer with her solid stabs and access to trick. Yeah, she dies to basically any physical move with her thinner than paper defenses, and having dry skin like her evo would be quite useful, but just because she's a glass cannon doesn't mean she deserves to not be ranked.

Smoochum Calcs

236 SpA Life Orb Smoochum Psychic vs. 228 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Shellos: 12-16 (44.4 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Smoochum Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Slowpoke: 16-21 (59.2 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Smoochum Ice Beam vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-26 (72 - 104%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Smoochum Shadow Ball vs. 236 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Frillish: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Smoochum Psychic vs. 236 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Growlithe: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Smoochum Psychic vs. 196 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Lickitung: 9-12 (32.1 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
236 SpA Life Orb Smoochum Psychic vs. 156 HP / 116+ SpD Eviolite Mantyke: 8-9 (34.7 - 39.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Litleo for B

Now, Litleo is a mon that is relatively unexplored LC UU and I feel that it is probably overlooked by other players for some reason. I'm really not sure why they do though because Litleo is actually super fuckin cool in LC UU where unlike in ou, it isn't completely outclassed by Houndour because Houndour is banned. Life Orb Leo hits like a truck and between its dual-STAB and Dark Pulse it hits everything in the tier at least neutrally. Sunnybeam is also a pretty cool set that hits stuff like Kabuto harder and can set sun for a Bellsprout or something if that floats your boat. Leo can also run other cool moves in his 4th move slot, including Taunt, Flame Charge, Sub, and even Will-O or Roar if you really want an inferior Growlithe. Litleo actually packs respectable bulk capable of hitting 23/14/12 while still remaining an offensive threat, which while not amazing, is pretty decent especially with an eviolite. Leo is also a fantastic switch-in to Pumpkaboo who can generally be a bitch to face for a few teams. Obviously, Litleo does have a few drawbacks; it's not overly fast, it doesn't have a useful ability, being weak to fighting is never an amazing trait to have, and it's SpAtk stat is 73 which is annoying af. But despite those flaws, I still believe that Litleo is a very solid and underrated mon in LC UU and deserves a B ranking.

 

[rhydonphilip]

Togepi to B Mid
Reasoning:
+One of the best defencive types being able to stop riolu, Mankey, Dratini, tyrunt, Deino,(basicaly fight, dragon and dark types who are important but resisting flying aswell would be godly.) Add to the fact it doesn't have any proper weaknesses, like steel/poison are both uncommon in LCUU outside of sludge bomb from tentacool and Aron's stab.
+Slow momentum being able to outslow all existing momentum users like Voltorb, Taillow, natu and heliolisk.
+Amazing bulk for support sadly there are some obvious wall breakers like: Taillow, duduo(~50%), darumaka and sutch.
+Wish support that unlike Regular LC isn't outclassed.
+Multiple forms of recovery including Wish/Softboiled/morningsun(idk why you did need that one but ok)
+Nastyplot what can be primairly used to pass into pokes like: amaura, smoochum and sutch who both treath a hugh part of the meta game and at +2 are able to 1HKO most of the meta game by it self(1HKO almost everything with rocks up).(and ofc shellos)

Many pokes could make use of solid wish pass and not get set up on by riolu,tyrunt in prosses(you do get set up on by other things that lickingtung does not but what do you do~).

 

[Anthiese]

Im iffy for multiple reasons.

>KO hinders it (like every defensive mon who need and want evio to really sap up hits)
>Birds keep it from doing it's job since they can overwhelm it, as does every other wallbreaker but it does handle Dragons / Fights / Darks sorta well.
>Bulk is not that amazing, good defensive stats but really poor HP at least for wishpassing but it's workable still.
>It's actually outclassed in HP given by Flabebe but has a more broad movepool offensively and defensively
>Morning Sun loses viability with all the rain and sand floating around (it's better if you dont have an event gen 3 toge but even still, wish is prolly a better alternative bc of the team support)
>NP gives the likes of Helioptile, Natu, Frillish, Wingull, Special Taillow, and other special attackers a free boost and the slow turn in keeps them at full HP
>"outslowing" momentum mons is kind of bad seeing that Torb has Taunt and that's the last thing you need

 

[rhydonphilip]

Im iffy for multiple reasons.

>KO hinders it (like every defensive mon who need and want evio to really sap up hits)
>Birds keep it from doing it's job since they can overwhelm it, as does every other wallbreaker but it does handle Dragons / Fights / Darks sorta well.
>Bulk is not that amazing, good defensive stats but really poor HP at least for wishpassing but it's workable still.
>It's actually outclassed in HP given by Flabebe but has a more broad movepool offensively and defensively
>Morning Sun loses viability with all the rain and sand floating around (it's better if you dont have an event gen 3 toge but even still, wish is prolly a better alternative bc of the team support)
>NP gives the likes of Helioptile, Natu, Frillish, Wingull, Special Taillow, and other special attackers a free boost and the slow turn in keeps them at full HP
>"outslowing" momentum mons is kind of bad seeing that Torb has Taunt and that's the last thing you need

It's not like any speed would matter against voltorb knowing voltorb has the highest speed stat/bench in all of LC hitting 20, what basicaly means you did need priority to outspeed it :/
but yea the poke has obvious flaws being taunt-bait but it's niches are still do-able.

 

[Anthiese]

My point is that you're claiming that Toge has an edge for being slower than momentum grabbing mons. While that's fine and dandy, what is Toge going to do?

Torb commonly carries Taunt which stop both BP and NP meaning you're stuck just dealing damage.
Helio who prolly wouldnt like taking DGleam still gets to paralyze you (also you have 4mss out of the ass so even if you're running nastypass you cnt get rid of it) and can bring in a check for free
Taillow does too much damage and you're not surviving 2-3 turns with it out in your face

Again, yes it's viable but it's not B worthy in my opinion. It still faces stiff competition from Flabebe as a cleric overall.

Nastypasser gives it something to give it some edge but in the end, it's still suffering since it becomes Taunt bait.

Anyone else got anything to say on Togepi?

 

[Berks]

My point is that you're claiming that Toge has an edge for being slower than momentum grabbing mons. While that's fine and dandy, what is Toge going to do?

Torb commonly carries Taunt which stop both BP and NP meaning you're stuck just dealing damage.
Helio who prolly wouldnt like taking DGleam still gets to paralyze you (also you have 4mss out of the ass so even if you're running nastypass you cnt get rid of it) and can bring in a check for free
Taillow does too much damage and you're not surviving 2-3 turns with it out in your face

Again, yes it's viable but it's not B worthy in my opinion. It still faces stiff competition from Flabebe as a cleric overall.

Nastypasser gives it something to give it some edge but in the end, it's still suffering since it becomes Taunt bait.

Anyone else got anything to say on Togepi?

Togepi is good but Flabébé, who does better in the faux-Spritzee role with its higher HP and much higher cuteness, is better in my experience

Smogon mobile sucks

 

[Krubby]

Budew for B

There is not a lot of Spikers in LC UU, so I guess that Sleep Powder + Spikes and being quite fast is a huge niche. I never used him in LC UU but this thing works in LC OU, and his best enemy called Dwebble is gone. Chespin miss Sleep Powder and Speed

From using this a lot in both OU and UU I can second this nom, or at least a nom for it to be ranked. Budew has a surpisingly large number of options with spikes, synthesis, sleep powder, giga drain, leaf storm, sludge bomb, natural cure rest, stun spore and coverage options in shadow ball, extransensory and dazzling gleam. Reaching 16 speed can be really helpful and 40/35/70 bulk isn't great, it has good defensive typing and can tank a lot of special hits, especially if you opt for a natural cure rest set which allows you to easily go in and out on special attackers a lot while fully healing each time before you leave. Very nice for an in n out spikes layer.

On another note, why is Trubbish C rank? Dude is hella viable in OU and I've seen other users put great use to it in UU

 

[Shrug]

On another note, why is Trubbish C rank? Dude is hella viable in OU and I've seen other users put great use to it in UU

its main niche in OU is stopping fighting types and foisting layers. Here, the lack of viable fighting types (they're certainly not mandatory) means trubbish is often dead weight. Since hazards are martin luther King of the metagame - they dont discriminate - i might see a rise to a low B-rank, but it wont be as good here as it is in lc ou. Best comparison might be amoongus being better in bw ou than bw uu.

 

[Anthiese]

Okay since Webs has been slain, both Webbers have lost their main niche and are kill.

What will this do to the viability of other mon?

Will birfspam finally take over?
Will TR and Rain get better?

Thoughts?

 

[Hugolaco]

Wailmer is unranked. But it is a very good Pokémon in LC UU. See for example a set with Wailmer Scarf:

Wailmer Choice Scarf: 30 HP, 11 Atk, Def 10, 16 Spa, SPD 10 and 24 Spe.

Guaranteed OHKO gives the following rankeados Pokemon: Doduo, Taillow, Hippopotas, Spinarak, Cranidos, Pumpkaboo-Small, Sandile, Sandshrew, Torchic (even with Speed Boost 1.5x does not exceed the Wailmer speed), Darumaka, Growlithe, Helioptile, Inkay (Choice Scarf, it does not outspeed Wailmer Scarf), Natu (Life orb and Dual Screens), Voltorb, Dratini (Mixed Attacker), Drifloon (AcroFloon), Machop, Minccino, amaura, Anorith, Aron, Axew (Choice), Bunnery ( Choice Band), Geodude, Meowth, Zorua, Joltik (Substitute), Binacle, Cubone and Pineco.

Chances (50% or more) of the following OHKO Pokemon: Tyrunt (Stealth Rock), Dratini (Dragon Dance outspeed not be used once), Snubbull, Tyrunt, Teddiursa, Omanyte, Barboach, Deino and Venipede.

There are still many others who would be easily defeated in two OHKO, including Riolu, Inkay (Trick Room), Kabuto, Natu (Defensive), Purrloin, Tyrunt (Dragon Dance not outspeed if used only once), Drifloon (Calm Mind and Baton Pass), Axew (Dragon Dance that was once used not outspeed), Buneary (Switcheroo Support), Finneon, Goldeen, Sewaddle, Togepi, Trubbish however this Wailmer is to kill in one hit only because it has little defense and Water Spout You lose a lot of power if HP has not completed.

Slowpoke could be a problem for Wailmer. At best Wailmer take 3 turns to defeat Slowpoke using HP Grass, however, is quite common Slowpoke have Thunder Wave, which would end much of Wailmer tactic that is based on its increased speed with Choice Scarf. Also Slowpoke could benefit from Regenerator, however, Slowpoke also take at least three shifts to defeat Wailmer (4 if you count one for Thunder Wave). Frillish may be another stone in the shoe Wailmer because Wailmer take 2-4 shifts (depending on the set and EVs) to defeat him, but Frillish need only 2 or 3 turns to beat him. Solosis not die in one hit and could end the tactic Wailmer with Trick Room, but it would take 3 turns to kill Wailmer. Shellos take 4 turns to die or to kill, Tentacool and Lickitung 3 to die or kill. Wynaut would be a good check, he holds two hits and sure kill in one hit with Mirror Coat, and prevent Wailmer change of Pokémon or attack once it's Scarf.

It seems that only Mantyke, Snover and Rufflet Scarf (same speed) may against Wailmer, since Mantyke defeat Wailmer 2 or 3 turns, and need Wailmer 3 to 5 turns. Snover defeat in OHKO But before would lose at least 1/4 HP. Rufflet Scarf is giving OHKO strike first, if not the first attack takes OHKO. Bulbasaur and Chespin defeat Wailmer, but not before losing at least 40% of HP. Deerling also defeat but lost even more. Joltik Scarf kills surely, if not Scarf dies in OHKO.

 

[gali]

Hi Hugolaco, welcome to Smogon. Unfortunately, Wailmer is unranked for a reason: it's largely outclassed by Remoraid, which sports a Water Spout of the same power as Wailmer's while also having access to 40 billion coverage options and the ability to effectively go mixed with Hustle, unlike Wailmer which is pretty much limited to Ice Beam and Hidden Power. (s/o Coconut.)

On a related note, this thread hasn't been updated in forever. Perhaps a new one is in order?

 

[Berks]

Hi Hugolaco, welcome to Smogon. Unfortunately, Wailmer is unranked for a reason: it's largely outclassed by Remoraid, which sports a Water Spout of the same power as Wailmer's while also having access to 40 billion coverage options and the ability to effectively go mixed with Hustle, unlike Wailmer which is pretty much limited to Ice Beam and Hidden Power. (s/o Coconut.)

On a related note, this thread hasn't been updated in forever. Perhaps a new one is in order?

Remind me to argue this in the morning