Resource Little Cup UU Viability Rankings

[Camden]

Approved by macle and with help from the LC UU Council
LC UU Viability Rankings

Welcome to the LC UU Viability Rankings thread! Here we will be ranking Pokemon in the LC UU metagame into different tiers based off of overall usefulness. If you have a suggestion to raise or drop a Pokemon's ranking, please post it here, but remember to be civil and try to make a solid argument for your thoughts and ideas.
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S-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are outstanding in the LC UU metagame. These Pokemon are able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or one particular role in an incredible manner. Pokemon in this tier are generally considered to be a low risk of use for a high reward. Any flaws they might have are extremely outweighed by their positive traits.

S

Doduo

Riolu

Taillow

A-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that perform very well in the LC UU metagame. They can perform their role(s) smoothly with only minimal support, and while they have slightly more flaws than S-Rank Pokemon, their positives still outshine them.

A+

Hippopotas

Slowpoke

Spinarak

A

Cranidos

Frillish

Pumpkaboo-Large/Super

Pumpkaboo-Small

Sandile

Sandshrew

Shellos

Torchic

A-

Darumaka

Growlithe

Helioptile

Inkay

Kabuto

Magby

Natu

Purrloin

Tentacool

Tyrunt

Voltorb


B-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that perform well in the LC UU metagame, but simply do not function in the same capacity that A-Rank and S-Rank Pokemon do. They require a bit more team support to achieve their maximum usefulness, but they are still effective threats.

B+

Dratini

Drifloon

Machop

Mankey

Minccino

B

Amaura

Anorith

Aron

Axew

Buizel

Buneary

Finneon

Geodude

Lickitung

Mantyke

Meowth

Rufflet

Snover

Solosis

Zorua

B-

Bulbasaur

Chespin

Clauncher

Deerling

Joltik

Teddiursa

Venipede

C-Rank

Reserved for Pokemon that are able to function in the LC UU metagame, but require a decent amount of team support to be effective. While they can form a solid niche in the metagame, they have enough flaws to prevent them from being consistent.

Binacle

Clamperl

Cubone

Deino

Flabébé

Goldeen

Pineco

Piplup

Sewaddle

Spoink

Squirtle

Togepi

Trubbish

Wynaut


Up for discussion:

 

[cityfolk]

Ok I have a few nominations so here we go

Hide

Bulbasaur to D or C Rank (if there ends up being a D Rank)

Set/Spread:
Bulbasaur @ Eviolite
Ability: Overgrow
Level: 5
EVs: 76 HP / 204 Def / 156 SpD
Calm Nature
- Knock Off
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Synthesis

Bulbasaur is a good mon that is pretty under-appreciated and is overshadowed by Foongus in LC OU. Since Foongus isn't in LC UU, it has the time to shine. It is still somewhat outclassed by Chespin, but Bulbasaur still has a decent niche.

Bulbasaur has access to reliable recovery in Synthesis. It has some interesting stab options such as Energy Ball, Leaf Storm, Giga Drain (preferred), Sludge Bomb, and the odd Venoshock. It also has access to Knock Off. Bulbasaur is a surprisingly bulky 'mon, reaching 22/14/16 bulk, so 22/21/24 with eviolite. It's bulk, paired with reliable recovery, allows it to absorb plenty of non-SE hits.

Bulbasaur also has the interesting Growth ability, so if it's in a tight spot and is at a low health and has to Giga Drain. it deals a larger amount of damage, resulting in more recovery.

Bulbasaur is also able to run a Sun sweeper set with it's access to the Chlorophyll ability. However, this isn't that good since it is outclassed by Bellsprout. Although Bulbasaur has better bulk, speed, and reaches the same Special Attack stat, it cannot have Weather Ball with Chlorophyll, and must run HP Fire or another coverage move in that moveslot.

Bulbasaur is by no means a perfect 'mon, but it has a niche with it's great bulk paired with reliable recovery in Synthesis, as well access to support moves like Knock Off and Sleep Powder. This is why I'm nominating it for D or C rank, and Not B, A, or S rank.

Next up is Squirtle to D rank (again, if there ends up being a D Rank)

Set/Spreads:
Squirtle @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
Level: 5
EVs: 84 HP / 156 Def / 244 SpD / 12 Spe
Bold Nature
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin
- Haze

Squirtle @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Torrent
Level: 5
EVs: 4 HP / 200 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Water Spout
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Squirtle @ Life Orb
Ability: Torrent
Level: 5
EVs: 212 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 11 HP
- Fake Out
- Aqua Jet
- Waterfall
- Ice Punch

Squirtle is another good 'mon that is outclassed in LC OU both as a spinner and as a water type. It struggles as a defensive 'mon, seeing as it has no reliable recovery outside of Rest. It has other niches in LC UU, with access to Water Spout or Fake Out + Aqua Jet.

Squirtle's main niche is Rapid Spin. There are other, possibly better options such as Anorith and Kabuto, however Squirtle has another interesting support move pool that these two don't, which is Haze. Squirtle is usually able to live moves from many set-up sweepers, including Shellder, Tyrunt, Axew, and Binacle. It can Haze away their stat boosts, however is severely weakened in the process.

+2 236+ Atk Shellder Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 84 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Squirtle: 15-20 (68.1 - 90.9%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 180+ Atk Binacle Stone Edge vs. 84 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Squirtle: 15-18 (68.1 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 220 Atk Mold Breaker Axew Outrage vs. 84 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Squirtle: 15-18 (68.1 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock - DD Axew
+1 124+ Atk Tyrunt Outrage vs. 84 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Squirtle: 15-18 (68.1 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Squirtle is also able to use Scald to burn and cripple many physical attackers, as well as use Ice Beam for coverage. It can also go physical with Aqua Jet/Waterfall paired with Ice Punch.

Squirtle can also run an offensive Choice Scarf set, paired with Water Spout, as seen above. This set runs Water Spout/Hydro Pump/Ice Beam/Hidden Power Grass. Water Spout is the main move, with Hydro Pump for after it loses too much HP to use Water Spout, and Ice Beam + HP Grass for coverage. This set is, however, sadly outclassed by Frillish, who has a better move pool, abilities, and special attack stat.

Another odd niche that Squirtle has is access to several priority moves. These moves include Aqua Jet and Fake Out. It can run the Life Orb set seen above, with Fake Out/Aqua Jet/Waterfall/Ice Punch. It also has coverage in Iron Tail, Zen Headbutt, and Brick Break. However, all of it's sets are completely walled by Frillish, and it is pretty mediocre.

Squirtle is far from perfect and it's sets are mostly outclassed, however it has a decent niche, which is why I'm nominating it for C rank or the potential D Rank.

Buizel to C or B Rank

Set/Spread:
Buizel @ Choice Band
Ability: Water Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SpD / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Ice Punch
- Switcheroo

Buizel is completely overshadowed in every way (except for Water Veil) in LC OU by Corphish. However, in LC UU, Buizel has room to shine. It also reaches the coveted 19 speed tier, which is less common in LC UU (with the removal of Pokemon such as Abra and Ponyta).

Buizel has the great ability of Water Veil, which prevents it from being burned. This is especially helpful to Buizel since it is a more physically oriented 'mon.

Buizel has another great niche in Switcheroo. This allows Buizel to hold a Choice Band and strong hits. This also allows Buizel to use Switcheroo on slower defensive 'mons and special attackers to cripple them severely, while Buizel takes their Life Orb/Eviolite/whatever.

Unlike many water 'mons, Buizel is not completly walled by Frillish. With this set, Buizel can cripple Frillish by taking it's Eviolite and giving Frillish a Choice Band. Frillish is also unable burn Buizel, since it has Water Veil.

Buneary to C Rank

Set/Spreads:
Buneary @ Assault Vest
Ability: Klutz
Level: 5
EVs: 228 Atk / 4 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Drain Punch / Fire Punch
- Quick Attack / Baton Pass / Fake Out
- Switcheroo

Buneary @ Life Orb
Ability: Limber
Level: 5
EVs: 228 Atk / 4 Def / 236 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Drain Punch / Fire Punch / Jump Kick
- Quick Attack / Fake Out
- Ice Punch / Thunder Punch / Fake Out

Buneary is pretty similar to Buizel in that it reaches 19 speed and can utilize Switcheroo. However, Buneary can run several items to cripple 'mons. With the ability Klutz, Buneary ignores the effect of it's item. This allows it to run and Switcheroo usually detrimental items to most LC mons, including Assault Vest, Iron Ball, Flame/Toxic Orb, Choice Band/Specs/Scarf, and pretty much anything you can think of (apart from Mega Stones).

This particular set uses Assault Vest. Assault Vest raises the user's Special Defense stat by 1.5 times, but only allows it to use attacking moves. Since Buneary's Klutz ability ignores the effect of items, it is still able to use Switcheroo with this item equipped. This especially cripples support Pokemon, stopping them from using their recovery moves/entry hazards/status moves/etc., while Buneary takes their Eviolite in return.

Buneary also has good coverage in it's STAB Return, Drain Punch + Elemental Punches, priority in Quick Attack and Fake Out, and also has Baton Pass to ease prediction.

However, Buneary is frail before it obtains an Eviolite and struggles to switch in on most things. It's normal typing stops it from having resistances, and it's STAB can't hit anything super effectively.

Buneary also can use a Life Orb set. Since it reaches the coveted 19 speed tier, it can outspeed most 'mons and deal heavy damage with it's STAB moves and array of coverage.

Clauncher to C Rank

Set/Spread:
Clauncher @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mega Launcher
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 20 Def / 212 SpA / 12 SpD / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Water Pulse / Scald
- U-turn
- Flash Cannon / Sludge Bomb
- Ice Beam / Sludge Bomb
OR
Clauncher @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mega Launcher
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 20 Atk / 212 SpA / 12 SpD / 224 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Water Pulse / Scald
- U-turn
- Flash Cannon / Sludge Bomb / Crabhammer
- Ice Beam / Sludge Bomb

Clauncher has an interesting niche as the only Mega Launcher 'mon in LC UU, as well as in LC OU. However, what holds Clauncher back is it's lacking movepool, and the fact that it has to choose between being bulky or fast.

While Clauncher's movepool is somewhat lacking, it does have enough interesting moves to run a Choice Scarf set, since it reaches 14 speed with a +Speed nature. it has access to Mega Launcher-boosted Water Pulse (or non-boosted Scald if you prefer burns), Dragon Pulse (which is boosted by Mega Launcher but adds very little, besides being it's only move to hit Frillish neutrally), Ice Beam (not boosted) Flash Cannon (not boosted), Sludge Bomb (not boosted), as well as some physical moves like Crabhammer, Aqua Jet, and U-turn. It somehow manages to have 4mss and lack good moves all at the same time.

Clauncher is able to hit decently hard and can act as a pivot with U-turn. It can also potentially spread status with Water Pulse (confusion), Scald (burn), Sludge Bomb (poison), and Ice Beam (freeze).

Spoink to D or C rank

Set/Spreads:
Spoink @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 236 Def / 116 SpD / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
- Magic Coat / Taunt / Whirlwind / Heal Bell
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball / Heal Bell / Taunt / Hidden Power Fighting (would need EV adjustments)
- Thunder Wave / Whirlwind / Heal Bell

Spoink @ Eviolite
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 5
EVs: 160 Def / 200 SpA / 120 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 30 Def / 30 SpA / 30 SpD / 2 Spe
- Psychic
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Trick Room

Spoink is the cutest 'mon in Little Cup (tied with Skiddo) so that should be enough to convince you of it's greatness. The only thing really holding it back is a lack of physical bulk, paired with a Knock Off weakness. However, Spoink has great special bulk, good Special Attack, and decent speed.

Spoink also has a wide array of support moves, including Magic Coat, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick, Trick Room, Toxic, Reflect, Light Screen, Torment, Heal Bell, and even Whirlwind. It also has a great ability in Thick Fat, which adds Fire- and Ice- type to it's (sadly, short) list of resistances.

Spoink can also act as an offensive Trick Room setter (the 2nd set). With it's high base 70 Special Attack, it can set up Trick Room and begin attacking. This set, sadly, is almost completely outclassed by Solosis, who has 105 Special Attack and can run Magic Guard + Life orb, or Regenerator + Eviolite, while setting up Trick Room. Solosis also out-slows Spoink with base 20 speed, and has a wider array of coverage moves.

Finneon to C rank

Set/Spread:
Finneon @ Eviolite
Ability: Storm Drain / Water Veil
Level: 5
EVs: 124 HP / 228 Def / 44 SpA / 108 SpD
Bold Nature
- Scald
- U-turn
- Defog
- Ice Beam

Finneon is one of the very few non-flying type Defog users. It also has access to a pivoting move in U-turn. Finneon is able to spread status with Scald, and has coverage in Ice Beam and Signal Beam.

Finneon also has 2 interesting abilities in Storm Drain and Water Veil. Water Veil prevents Finneon from being burned, while Storm Drain raises it's Special Attack stat by +1.

WOW that took a while.

 

[boo836]

Meowth to A-.

Shell Smash + Ziggy necessitates it.

Buneary to B-, Healing Wish gives it a strong niche as an offensive supporter, esp to mons like Binacle, Doduo, and Houndour, which have limited opportunities to set up or die quickly thanks to passive damage. Doesn't kill momentum either.

 

[Corporal Levi]

Hi, just for the record, this list was written with the assumption that Zigzagoon was banned (and everybody on the council except for Starmaster has voted for its quickban, so rest assured that this will be the case). Shellder was added at S+ after the rest of the tier list was already created because there is no doubt that it will be rendered less powerful in some manner, but I wasn't sure at the time how this would be so. Also, the C-rank we have here was originally C+, which is why it's so short; C and below were not initially included.
In regards to the given nominations, I don't see a problem with most of them other than Meowth for reasons described above, but I'm not sure if I can agree to Buizel being placed as high as B, although C+ or C seems fine to me thanks to its high speed and good, although not great damage output. The banded set relies immensely on risky predictions, which is problematic because Buizel's frailty means that a wrong prediction will be very, very costly. The Life Orb set doesn't suffer from being rendered set-up bait by top sweepers if it's locked into the wrong move, but both sets are walled by the ubiquitous bulky Water-types and are easily revenge-killed by just about anything that can avoid a OHKO from its attacks, a category that consists of just about every important threat that isn't ridiculously frail or weak to Water-type attacks, on top of a few that are:
236 Atk Choice Band Buizel Waterfall vs. 36 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Sandshrew: 18-24 (81.8 - 109%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Sandshrew Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Buizel: 19-24 (86.3 - 109%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Stratis]

Where is manytke and bellsprout? Edit: Where is rufflets :(?

I also think mincinno and meowth are too good to be both at B-

 

[Camden]

Changes:

Removed Zigzagoon
Shellder down to S

Proposals:

Binacle and Clamperl need to drop, but not sure where atm.
Would like to see more support on cityfolk and stratis's suggestions before I put them anywhere.

 

[Corporal Levi]

I think that a good placement for Mantyke is C- because even though it has two roles that are somewhat useful on certain teams and are very different, it doesn't perform either very well at all. As sweeper, its damage output is honestly quite underwhelming, and it lacks the power to break through important defensive Pokemon like Lickitung, Lileep, and Shellos; even many offensive Eviolite holders are able to avoid the OHKO from its attacks, including anything with 22 HP and 14 SpD or more for Rain-boosted Life Orb Modest Hydro Pump; this is all assuming that Mantyke has wasted a turn setting up Rain Dance, which can be somewhat difficult due to its low physical bulk. As a defensive RestTalk user, it's weak to Stealth Rock, can't deal with 3HKOs because of its reliance on Rest, loses to more wall-breakers than not as well as just normal offensive Pokemon, and is mostly outclassed by Shellos.
As for Bellsprout, I'm not too sure because I don't think non-Sand weather has established itself as a viable playstyle as much as it could yet, but given how Sun isn't prominent at all just yet, I'd probably just rank it at C (which was slightly lower than its placement in LC OU before queenlucy came along, for reference) given how it's undoubtedly the strongest Chlorophyll sweeper available. I think this is fair because of how threatening Bellsprout is once set up; however, it is greatly hindered by the difficulty in actually setting up, as well as numerous methods available to stop its sweep, most importantly its frailty allowing priority to take it out, but also the extremely common Hippopotas.
I think that a good place for Rufflet for now would be A-, although it probably deserves to be higher and I'm just being conservative. Not even Life Orb Doduo has a guaranteed 2HKO on a full health Lileep (although it's quite likely), a feat Choice Scarf or Eviolite Rufflet accomplishes without much issue. Furthermore, Rufflet, unlike Taillow or Doduo, gets a viable boosting move in Bulk Up, giving it yet another niche over its competition on top of its ridiculously powerful Choice Scarf set that can carry U-Turn, unlike Doduo. The reason I am ranking Rufflet below the other two birds is that it needs Choice Scarf to function as an effective cleaner, meaning it is much more reliant on prediction early in the match, and Hustle misses are irritating (Aerial Ace isn't all that powerful). I know there's a huge discrepancy here between Rufflet's LC UU and LC OU rankings, but many of the viable bird checks are stuck in LC OU to deal with Fletchling, and what's left is stuff that gets crushed by Superpower.
I think Meowth is fine in B- because it loses badly to most bulkier Pokemon, especially walls, and is set-up bait for Tyrunt (and rain sweepers). Its priority is of course very useful, but that's the vast majority of its niche, and I think B- is a good measure of how useful this niche is.
I suppose I can better see Minccino rise, but I'm not totally sure about it. It's certainly a very potent wall-breaker, but this tier has no shortage of wall-breakers, and I don't know why I would choose a frail Pokemon with no resistances or priority that has trouble immediately breaking through a very important wall in Lileep over the alternatives.

Proposing Clamperl for C-. There is almost no reason to use any set other than the DeepSeaTooth set except for the most ridiculously specific of scenarios that will never actually happen, so I won't go there. As for the DST set, I know I just said that Minccino is outclassed as a wall-breaker but Clamperl is basically hopeless outside of Trick Room; even Cubone is usually better, since it can hit 14 Speed, packs Knock Off, and can boost its Attack to levels where nothing can avoid the OHKO, and let's just not go into the wall-breakers that can deal with Knock Off, or actually take a hit, or outspeed important threats. Even inside its one niche as a Trick Room sweeper, it suffers competition from Pokemon that can actually come in without having the Trick Room user blow up.

Proposing Binacle for D, because Omanyte and Kabuto do just about everything better. And before anybody brings it up:
180+ Atk Tough Claws Binacle Cross Chop vs. 228 HP / 220+ Def Eviolite Lileep: 10-14 (38.4 - 53.8%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
196+ SpA Omanyte Ice Beam vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Lileep: 10-14 (38.4 - 53.8%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
I'm leaving it out of E-rank because I guess it gets Choice Scarf Switcheroo to prevent it from being totally outclassed.

Proposing Omanyte for B+. It's quite versatile, not to mention effective; other than easily being the most threatening rain sweeper, it can also run a nice Weak Armor suicide lead set due to its access to all the hazards except for Sticky Web akin to Omastar in other tiers, and once again thanks to its access to all the hazards, it can even feasibly fit onto defensive teams as one of the few Toxic Spikes users that aren't Poison-type. Obviously I don't have much experience with it just yet, but I think this would be a good starting placement for it.

Proposing Shellder for A+, because it's not as metagame-defining as Gothita. I'm not proposing it move down any further just yet because it's not really clear how good it is at the moment; the Choice Scarf set seems really great on paper and it gets Rapid Spin too if an Eviolite support is needed, which is viable thanks to its high Defense and offensive presence even with a defensive set.

Proposing Tyrunt for A-. It no longer has nearly as much competition as a set-up sweeper, and it's a really, really good sweeper. It has all sorts of coverage moves on top of its immensely powerful STABs to break through just about everything except for bulky Ground-types, which are probably the only things that check it reasonably well. The prominence of birds and Normal-types, coupled with above average bulk, gives it numerous opportunities to set up and wreak havoc. It can also run a decent Stealth Rock support set, but I'd rather just have a teammate do that considering how good Tyrunt is at sweeping with Dragon Dance. With that being said, it's still prone to being revenge-killed by things like Sandshrew under sand, Mankey, and, if things go poorly, Riolu, as well as paralyzed by Purrloin. One thing I would like to note is how well it pairs with Sticky Web; many of the Pokemon immune to Sticky Web, such as Taillow and Doduo, are merely set-up bait for Tyrunt, who can now proceed to outspeed both Mankey and Sand Rush Sandshrew at +1.

 

[Kavatika]

honedge and riolu are still missing from this

 

[Camden]

If a Pokemon is missing from the list, it means that a ranking couldn't be agreed on for it. Please offer a suggestion for its ranking instead of simply stating stuff is missing.

Edit: Moved Binacle and Clamperl into C Rank for now. Added Riolu to A+.

 

[LoboMuzenza]

Proposing Tyrunt for A-. It no longer has nearly as much competition as a set-up sweeper, and it's a really, really good sweeper. It has all sorts of coverage moves on top of its immensely powerful STABs to break through just about everything except for bulky Ground-types, which are probably the only things that check it reasonably well. The prominence of birds and Normal-types, coupled with above average bulk, gives it numerous opportunities to set up and wreak havoc. It can also run a decent Stealth Rock support set, but I'd rather just have a teammate do that considering how good Tyrunt is at sweeping with Dragon Dance. With that being said, it's still prone to being revenge-killed by things like Sandshrew under sand, Mankey, and, if things go poorly, Riolu, as well as paralyzed by Purrloin. One thing I would like to note is how well it pairs with Sticky Web; many of the Pokemon immune to Sticky Web, such as Taillow and Doduo, are merely set-up bait for Tyrunt, who can now proceed to outspeed both Mankey and Sand Rush Sandshrew at +1.

I agree with Tyrunt being A-. That thing is awesome as a setup sweeper as it is (even in the regular LC) and he's now in a tier that bans most things that stop him. With fighting types being this rampant even in LC UU, I don't think he deserves anything more than A- though (at least not until sturdy tyrunt is released).

And I nominate Squirtle for...... A-.

+ Squirtle has a better mixed bulk in comparison to Tentacool and considering the amount of bopping that Tentacool is exposed to in its physical side, it is a very good thing.
+ Squirtle (fake out + aqua jet variant) can kill gothita after stealth rock damage, Tentacool is bopped by it.
+ Squirtle is a whole lot better revenge killer with fake out + aqua jet
+ Squirtle has access to Foresight
- No recovery bar rest.
- Offensive stats are not very good.

 

[cityfolk]

I agree with Tyrunt being A-. That thing is awesome as a setup sweeper as it is (even in the regular LC) and he's now in a tier that bans most things that stop him. With fighting types being this rampant even in LC UU, I don't think he deserves anything more than A- though (at least not until sturdy tyrunt is released).

And I nominate Squirtle for...... A-.

+ Squirtle has a better mixed bulk in comparison to Tentacool and considering the amount of bopping that Tentacool is exposed to in its physical side, it is a very good thing.
+ Squirtle (fake out + aqua jet variant) can kill gothita after stealth rock damage, Tentacool is bopped by it.
+ Squirtle is a whole lot better revenge killer with fake out + aqua jet
+ Squirtle has access to Foresight
- No recovery bar rest.
- Offensive stats are not very good.

The problem with Squirtle is that it has fewer useful resistances (steel and ice are irrelevant) than tentacool does and doesnt offer anything besides scald burns and spin support, while tentacool is faster, has better abilities (liquid ooze/clear body), can spread scald burns & spin as well, can knock off items, can lay toxic spikes, can actually recover some health with giga drain (although its STABs are more useful), and break down walls with acid spray.

 

[Oma]

And I nominate Squirtle for...... A-.

+ Squirtle has a better mixed bulk in comparison to Tentacool and considering the amount of bopping that Tentacool is exposed to in its physical side, it is a very good thing.
+ Squirtle (fake out + aqua jet variant) can kill gothita after stealth rock damage, Tentacool is bopped by it.
+ Squirtle is a whole lot better revenge killer with fake out + aqua jet
+ Squirtle has access to Foresight
- No recovery bar rest.
- Offensive stats are not very good.

Woah, A- is exceedingly high for Squirtle. I'd actually argue that Squirtle has no niche at all that isn't done better by other Pokemon. (sorry OP) I'll go point by point.
+mixbulk: Yes it has good mixed bulk, but it's got no offensive presence and no reliable recovery. Tentacool has more resistances, utility, and special bulk; while spin Shellder has more physical bulk and offensive presence. Both of these mons can get around spinblockers w/o the terrible foresight. (Squirt has to foresight on the switch and can still just get killed by Pump)
+FO+AJ: Ew just use Meowth. Also, Gothita typically doesn't 1v1 things, so it won't even get hit by FO. In addition, Tentacool lives Goth's Psychic and can Knock Off the scarf, crippling or killing Goth.
+Foresight: Carrying Knock Off to hit them on switch is way better than foresighting on switch and dying. Shrew, Tenta, and Shellder can actually get around Pump.
I guess Cityfolk's haze set is viable (the rest are all outclassed), but that doesn't even put it in C rank imo. If we make a D rank, it could go there.

Proposing Bellsprout be put in C. Not as good as it is in standard LC with its buddy Vulpix, but it is just as powerful when given the right support through manual sun. Purrloin can give a Prankster Sunny Day, a slow U-turn, and Knock Off support to help Sprout, and from there it can do its job in sweeping. Can run LO, Evio, and even Oran Berry to get past that Chespin, while Sucker Punch can avoid being revenge killed and Sleep Powder helps get past checks. Unfortunately, Hippo is much more prevalent here, and that brings it down in viability.

Honedge sounds good in B for now, it's bulky af but not a great typing. Fire Spam and Knock Off spam are very effective in the meta, but Honedge can still manage to shine as a Pursuit trapper, revenge killer, and bulky attacker. Its sheer bulk lets it survive many hits and hit hard back.

 

[Stratis]

Is squirtle even outright better than piplup? For lc uu, are we to say that rapid spin > defog? There is a reason that piplup was popular in early lc uu.

- They can both get 23/16/14 defenses (good hp number to keep SR at 2 damage). They can both yawn/scald
- Hazard removal becomes defog vs rapid spin.
- They can both easily use 12 attk/spa
- Squirtle has some slightly more interesting moves like aura sphere/zen headbutt, but you don't really need them with scald/ice beam/aqua jet/aqua tail/rapid spin/toxic as options.
- Squirtle has access to aqua jet priority which is somewhat important. you might even want to use a -speed nature with mixed.
- Piplup can actually set up it's own stealth rocks

Spin blocking ghosts probably won't be very common and priority in lc is always important so perhaps squirtle does hold a small advantage now over piplup. It should not be overlooked that in this role piplup can use stealth rocks while squirtle can only remove hazards. It doesn't seem like it's A- to me. Piplup is probably better than C (B- at the very least). I can't see squirtle going any higher than B. You can almost compare kabuto with squirtle but the additional rock typing and lesser hp/special bulk put it at a disadvatage in this utility role battle between piplup and squirtle

I agree with Tyrunt being A-. That thing is awesome as a setup sweeper as it is (even in the regular LC) and he's now in a tier that bans most things that stop him. With fighting types being this rampant even in LC UU, I don't think he deserves anything more than A- though (at least not until sturdy tyrunt is released).

And I nominate Squirtle for...... A-.

+ Squirtle has a better mixed bulk in comparison to Tentacool and considering the amount of bopping that Tentacool is exposed to in its physical side, it is a very good thing.
+ Squirtle (fake out + aqua jet variant) can kill gothita after stealth rock damage, Tentacool is bopped by it.
+ Squirtle is a whole lot better revenge killer with fake out + aqua jet
+ Squirtle has access to Foresight
- No recovery bar rest.
- Offensive stats are not very good.

As for a fake out/aqua jet squirtle I'm not sure that's worth it. It's certainly much weaker than meowth as a "revenge" killer unless you are facing steel/rock type. Outside of priority a LO squirtle (it would need a LO) is kind of slow/vulnerable. "The offensive stats are not very good" is kind of important. I doubt anyone would use foresight. Ghosts aren't common and it's better to kill/remove them then to run a risky move.

212+ Atk Life Orb Squirtle Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Gothita: 6-8 (28.5 - 38%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
(6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 8)

212+ Atk Life Orb Squirtle Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Gothita: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)

_____

236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Gothita: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Gothita: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)

6 + 9 = 15 squirtle

12 + 9 = 21 meowth

I fail to see how squirtle would even kill gothita after stealth rocks damage. Even two turns of stealth rocks would leave gothita with 17 health and out of range of life orb fakeout + aqua jet from squirtle.

Meowth, however can kill gothita from 100% health cause meowth is a fucking boss.

 

[Stratis]

I nominate rufflets for B-. The scarf set is mediocre compared to darumaka but has some undeniable power behind it anyways. I would like to add that a bulk up eviolite set is both unexpected and sometimes very effective. rufflets has surprizing good bulk, attack stat, and a commendable base 60 speed. It is capable of maxing it's bulk at 26/14/14. It is forced to use super power to hit steel/rock types and the only move it could hope to use against honedge is heatwave. It's probably not worth using this as a wannabe defog vullaby since it doesn't have knock off and lacks the sheer physical bulk vullaby commands. Can it pull off using sheer force with moves like heatwave/airslash/rock slide to go with defog and roost? I'm not sure that's worthwhile since lc uu is still predominately offensive.

 

[Stratis]

Without smash binacle and clampearl are extremely less threatening. Tooth pearl with trick room is okay but easily killed or forced out if it can not land a kill. It has the same problem as cubone of being powerful but not powerful enough to secure the kills it would need to be worthwhile.

I would say Binacle should remain whatever the lowest rank becomes whether that is C or D. Until someone can prove otherwise, there isn't much reason to use it; It doesn't have a noticeable niche. It's not strong enough to be a worthwhile scarfer and having decent coverage/power isn't enough to get it by.

Clampearl is harder to place than binacle. I suppose it could be somewhere in C rank with cubone since, as I explained, the only team is would find reliable use on is a trick room team and it would easily die if it failed to land kills.

 

[Anthiese]

The fact that Clamperl gets double the SpA with DST is very useful and give it a noticable power boost over it's competition. It has VERY middling coverage which doesnt help it's case. Being a TR / Web Abuser is what it's left with at this point.

Binacle does have Switcheroo and can utilize a Choice Scarf / Band and has a slightly more expansive movepool containing:

Brick Break / Cross Chop / Power-Up Punch (if you're into that kind of thing)
Dual Chop (if you're into that kind of thing)
EQ / Bulldoze
Night Slash / Thief
Poison Jab
Razor Shell
Stone Edge
X-Scissor

I dont know about you but i see massive potential with this mon. SD + 3 Atk on Web teams, Band Switcheroo on TR teams, Even Sub BJ is a thing if you so desire it. It's got a bigger physical movepool than it's "counterparts" Kabuto and Shellder on the phsyical end. If anything a more expansive movepool covers for it's lower stats in my opinion.

Yes Clamperl hits harder on the special side than Binacle but Binacle has a much better movepool. And more roles can be preformed with it's better options.

So in short

Clam = C-
Binacle = B-

 

[Stratis]

(Edit: Even though it's not "up for discussion") Nominating togepi for C rank. This will probably the only other somewhat viable fairy type in lc uu other than maybe azurill, and while it's spa is low it can run a decent amount of physical bulk. The reason this could be useful is dratini and tyrunt have become interesting options for set up dragons that aren't threatened by the usual lc fairy type spritzee. This would be an antimeta poke against dragons as snover is against sand teams. Togepi can get a decent 23/16/13 defenses, has recovery, can get 12 spa with 36 evs + modest nature, and if what it switches into does not stay in it can at least get up a reflect or use thunderwave. I was thinking of a set that might look like the following.

Togepi @ Eviolite
Ability: Serene Grace? idk
Level: 5
EVs: 236 Hp / 236 Def / 36 Spa
Modest Nature
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunder wave
- Reflect
- Soft-Boiled

_____

36+ SpA Togepi Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Dratini: 18-24 (94.7 - 126.3%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

36+ SpA Togepi Dazzling Gleam vs. 52 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Tyrunt: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 18)

_____

+1 244+ Atk Life Orb Dratini Waterfall vs. 236 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Togepi: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10)

+1 244+ Atk Life Orb Dratini Waterfall vs. 236 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Togepi through Reflect: 4-5 (17.3 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO
(4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5)

_____

+1 124+ Atk Tyrunt Stone Edge vs. 236 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Togepi: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)

+1 124+ Atk Tyrunt Stone Edge vs. 236 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Togepi through Reflect: 6-8 (26 - 34.7%) -- 0.7% chance to 3HKO
(6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 7, 8)

_____

The idea here is that iron head and iron tail are not lucrative moves for tyrunt and dratini to run. Unless they can get waterfall flinches or stone edge crits they are going to lose to topegi or be forced to switch. If they do switch a free reflect/thunderwave is usually not bad. These two pokes cannot learn knock off so togepis eviolite would be safe.

Of course togepi can also use nasty plot and a few other moves like flamethrower. It can use baton pass and is an effective receiver with stored power. I don't like to encourage baton pass shenanigans in LC though and I'm not a fan of torch pass.

 

[Stratis]

Proposing Bellsprout be put in C. Not as good as it is in standard LC with its buddy Vulpix, but it is just as powerful when given the right support through manual sun. Purrloin can give a Prankster Sunny Day, a slow U-turn, and Knock Off support to help Sprout, and from there it can do its job in sweeping. Can run LO, Evio, and even Oran Berry to get past that Chespin, while Sucker Punch can avoid being revenge killed and Sleep Powder helps get past checks. Unfortunately, Hippo is much more prevalent here, and that brings it down in viability.

I'm not sure this is a fair assessment. Hippo can change the weather but it certainly doesn't want to be switched in on bellsprout. I would not put it passed people to have something creative like mixed bellsprout. Bellsprout does have more attack than special attack. It has some nice options with power whip, knock off, sludge bomb, sucker punch, and sleep powder.


236+ Atk Life Orb Bellsprout Power Whip vs. 212 HP / 212+ Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 23-31 (88.4 - 119.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 31)

236+ Atk Life Orb Bellsprout Knock Off vs. 164 HP / 196 Def Pumpkaboo-Large: 13-18 (54.1 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

36 SpA Life Orb Bellsprout Sludge Bomb vs. 36 HP / 120 SpD Eviolite Snover: 18-23 (78.2 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 23)

236+ Atk Life Orb Bellsprout Power Whip vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 13-17 (50 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)

236+ Atk Life Orb Bellsprout Power Whip vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tyrunt: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)

36 SpA Life Orb Bellsprout Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Doduo: 19-23 (100 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)

36 SpA Life Orb Bellsprout Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Dratini: 16-19 (84.2 - 100%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)

36 SpA Life Orb Bellsprout Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Houndour: 16-19 (84.2 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)

Frail and not overly difficult to revenge kill, but bellsprout can do a lot of damage to teams. Admittedly, there isn't much other reason to use sun. You could include a fire type like scarf darumaka or add a weaker version of bellsprout like bulbasaur. I'd rate it as high as A- if there seemed to be good synergy with sun. It still has so much potential that I'd have to give it a B. Since sun isn't such an obvious choice it could give other players a rough time dealing with the sleep powder and heavy damage.

 

[Rowan]

hi Stratis, for future reference please use the edit button (under your post) if no-one has posted after you, instead of just double posting, it makes the thread extremely cluttered. I'll let it slide this time (mainly because I can't be bothered to edit it myself), jsyk in future. If you're worried that your post would end up too long, you can always put calcs in hide tags or write about each mon in its own hide tag

 

[Kavatika]

If a Pokemon is missing from the list, it means that a ranking couldn't be agreed on for it. Please offer a suggestion for its ranking instead of simply stating stuff is missing.

Edit: Moved Binacle and Clamperl into C Rank for now. Added Riolu to A+.

If something couldn't be agreed on, give it a preliminary ranking and make it a point of discussion.

I'll edit this soon with noms

 

[SilentMango]

I've been playing around with Joltik a lot and would like to nominate Joltik for B- or B.

Joltik's typing is pretty amazing in LC UU. The bug typing lets it take on Riolu and Mankey very well. Volt switch makes for nice pivoting, and Joltik is pretty much like the only user of it in LC UU except for like Voltorb. Joltik can either be played offensively or defensively as well, each set with their own merits. Joltik with eviolite can also hit 17 speed and is a shaky check to birds as it can barely eat a facade from Taillow (no SR or previous damage though) and hit back with a powerful volt switch. The scarf set is a much better bird check. It has Giga Drain to use against water to gain some more longevity, or Volt Switch against the very common water type. You can even use sucker punch for some random priority. The only things is, IDK how it compares to Voltorb.

Also, it's cute, which is a big selling point :).

 

[Berks]

I've been playing around with Joltik a lot and would like to nominate Joltik for B- or B.

Joltik's typing is pretty amazing in LC UU. The bug typing lets it take on Riolu and Mankey very well. Volt switch makes for nice pivoting, and Joltik is pretty much like the only user of it in LC UU except for like Voltorb. Joltik can either be played offensively or defensively as well, each set with their own merits. Joltik with eviolite can also hit 17 speed and is a shaky check to birds as it can barely eat a facade from Taillow (no SR or previous damage though) and hit back with a powerful volt switch. The scarf set is a much better bird check. It has Giga Drain to use against water to gain some more longevity, or Volt Switch against the very common water type. You can even use sucker punch for some random priority. The only things is, IDK how it compares to Voltorb.

Also, it's cute, which is a big selling point :).

Imma edit in some discussion when I get home, but there's no way Joltik is a bird check. The SR weakness and a mere neutrality to birds coupled with only decent defenses does not a bird check make. see below for more discussion

 

[Anthiese]

Imma edit in some discussion when I get home, but there's no way Joltik is a bird check. The SR weakness and a mere neutrality to birds coupled with only decent defenses does not a bird check make. brb with more to edit in

To piggyback

Joltik- 50 / 47 / 50 / 57 / 50 / 65
Voltorb- 40 / 30 / 50 / 55 / 55 / 100

They have the same defensive stats so Joltik isnt taking hits better. Plus Voltorb is naturally faster so it can afford to run LO to boost it's damage output. Joltik has to rely on Scarf to keep up with Birds and even then it's hitting for less power.

 

[Berks]

To piggyback

Joltik- 50 / 47 / 50 / 57 / 50 / 65
Voltorb- 40 / 30 / 50 / 55 / 55 / 100

They have the same defensive stats so Joltik isnt taking hits better. Plus Voltorb is naturally faster so it can afford to run LO to boost it's damage output. Joltik has to rely on Scarf to keep up with Birds and even then it's hitting for less power.

Piggybackception

Joltik is completely, and I mean completely outclassed by Voltorb as an Electric type, as it has no moves with which to abuse Compound Eyes. It's only true niche is fast webs. EDIT: lol not even webs?

On to some more discussion, Omanyte deserves at least A+ rank for the following reasons:

• Omanyte's base stats are damn solid, with exceptional Defense and Special attack held back by middling Special Defense and Speed
• Its typing is very, very good in this meta, checking a beating many top tier threats such as Houndour, Darumaka, Flying-types, Skrelp, and Cranidos, while only really super losing to Riolu and Lileep
• It has access to every damaging hazard
• Helix 11/10 pls put up

On another hand, I think Solosis really needs to go from B to B-, that Special Attack is godly and its abilities are golden but it's just so damn frail even if it has Regen and its typing is only meh. I'd love to be wrong on this one tho, I've always wanted Solosis to be good uwu

One more thing, I haven't really seen or used Spinarak yet, what exactly does it do and what makes it A rank?

 

[gali]

joltik doesn't get webs lol

edit: spinarak does, that's why it's in a