Resource Little Cup Underused Introduction and Discussion Thread Mk.II

Anthiese

formerly Jac
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
approved by Quote also i stole and tweaked his last thread's OP

LITTLE CUP UNDERUSED





Banlist

Pokemon:
Abra, Aipom, Anorith, Archen, Bunnelby, Carvanha, Chinchou, Cottonee, Croagunk, Diglett, Drifloon, Drilbur, Dwebble, Elekid, Ferroseed, Fletchling, Foongus, Gastly, Gothita, Honedge, Larvesta, Lileep, Magnemite, Mienfoo, Munchlax, Omanyte, Onix, Pawniard, Ponyta, Porygon, Scraggy, Shellder, Snivy, Snubbull, Spritzee, Staryu, Stunky, Surskit, Timburr, Tirtouga, Vullaby

BL: Corphish, Houndour, Pancham, Skrelp, Vulpix, Zigzagoon

LC Ubers (Scyther, Sneasel, Yanma, Tangela, Gligar, Swirlix, Murkrow, Meditite, Misdreavus)

Banned moves: Shell Smash, Sticky Web


Council

Jac (TL)
Quote
rozes
H&M Berkeley
Shrug
Kingmidas
Joltage
Oma
Fiend

Quote said:
Welcome to LC UU, the tier where even the pipsqueaks of the pipsqueaks get a chance to shine! The goal of this tier is to simply have an alternative for those that wanna mix things up a bit. Just like how UU is with OU, LC UU experiences tier shifts so the metagame actually experiences changes on occasion. Besides that, we follow the same rule as standard LC. Feel free to use this thread to discuss the metagame, including any possible strategies you've been using, or even possible suspects for the tier. If you have any questions ask them here and we'll be happy to help you out!
Discussion points:

What do we do now that sand is BACK BABY (also Torchic pass is back rejoice)
 
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Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
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I do not think that birdspam is a noteworthy strategy anymore. Taillow and Doduo are far too easily worn down to be able to sweep effectively, and their checks are both prominent and threatening. There will very rarely be a situation where Doduo just wins because Stealth Rock + two Brave Bird KOs = dead Doduo, and there are so many Pokemon that can force Doduo out once or twice that it will often struggle to get more than a single KO, despite how difficult it is to switch into repeatedly. Taillow/Doduo/Rufflet are not bad Pokemon at all - in fact, they are all phenomenal stand-alone wall-breakers - but pairing them up stacks weaknesses and mandates hazard removal for very little gain. I suppose Birdspam can catch off guard a newer LC UU player thinking that birds need not be prepared for in a metagame without Drifloon/Vullaby/Fletchling.

What I think is quite strong in LC UU right now, as touched upon in the previous thread, is stall. The huge number of bulky Pokemon and hazard setters available, coupled with the scarcity of wall-breakers that aren't fodder to offensive teams (LO Abra and Gastly would be examples of these wall-breakers in LC OU), makes stall much more viable than it is in LC OU despite the unfavourable mechanics. Partially due to how good stall teams are, I actually think that Rufflet is the best bird, as Superpower allows it to break through common defensive bird checks.
I may try to elaborate a bit on this topic later, but those are a quick summary of my thoughts.
 
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Anthiese

formerly Jac
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Sand itself i can see being more popular since Hippo is already too easy to place on a team and offers a bunch of things (can phaze and nice phys wall with a hazard) to a team. Getting Lileep back helped big time. I dont see Sand slowing down at any point and time.

Rain, I dont see getting any more popular since it requires a lot of work to start up adn keep up and it lost a really good abuser in Anorith. Plus Lileep's back and well, it's going to be difficult to break Lileep open with your run of the mill Rain abusers.

Lastly, ive seen a little play with Chloro Sewaddle that's convinced me it's not done in without Webs, despite it's literal trash pile of weaknesses, it's still able to come in and wreck havoc and play with the weather a bit. Also Spinirak still makes for a bulky TSpikes setter with a nice package of moves. They both suffered the lost of Webs but they arent dead weight yet.
 
Doesn't Venonat outclass Spinarak at setting t. spikes? It has better stats across the board, reliable recovery, better abilities and tons of support options. the only thing its missing is strong stabs and priority but thats not what it or spinarak are focused on anyway.
 

Anthiese

formerly Jac
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Doesn't Venonat outclass Spinarak at setting t. spikes? It has better stats across the board, reliable recovery, better abilities and tons of support options. the only thing its missing is strong stabs and priority but thats not what it or spinarak are focused on anyway.

I was only speaking on Spinarak's behalf because it used to be a popular webber. I was unconcerned with finding a better tspiker since i was only talking about webbers and their niche now. That being said:

Froakie, the naturally fastest tspiker with taunt access and protean shakes up it's type disadvantages every turn
Koffing, phys bulky af, can abuse venoshock with it along with tbolt and fire blast and shit healing
Nidoran-F, mostly outclassed bc slow and frail
Nidoran-M, see its female counterpart, better off abusing hustle
Pineco, gets all the hazards and rapid spin
Skorupi, phys bulky af better hp worse def than koffing but it can hit back at least, has ko and taunt
Spinarak, has good attacking moves that's about it lol
Tentacool, stellar sdef plus ko and spin and great special movepool
Trubbish, good vs fighting type and cant lose item but cant take strong neutral hits
Venipede, speed boost plus endeavor to break up defensive threats and some offensive threats, also gets spikes, only for suicide use tbh.
Venonat, compound eyes + powders (sleep and stun) are cute, also has bp so really good on vt, and it's slightly bulkier than spinarak, and can heal too wow this thing is amazeballs
Yamask, has hex and mummy somewhat stops physically inclined mons who rely on their abilities, too bad it cant heal

tl;dr venonat is cute, i use froakie / skorp / tenta / koffing though.
 
Honedge moved from LC UU to LC OU
Houndour moved from LC OU to LC BL
Skrelp moved from LC OU to LC BL
Cranidos moved from LC UU to LC OU
Anorith moved from LC OU to LC UU
Pumpkaboo-Super moved from LC OU to LC UU
Pancham moved from LC OU to LC BL
Gothita moved from LC OU to LC UU

So we lost Honedge (which really ruins my HO teams :[ ) and Cranidos, and gained back Anorith (yay cuz cool spinner) Pump-Super (I'm indifferent) and Goth (whom Levi is currently worried about ruining his beloved LC UU stall) I don't really have much to say on these outside of my brief asides, but I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on them
 

Corporal Levi

ninjadog of the decade
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnus
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Yea, I take back my second paragraph now because Gothita flips stall on its head; the lack of trappers was one of the main reasons why stall was so good compared to LC OU. Gothita straight-up KOes or weakens beyond repair some very important stall mons in Tentacool / Hippopotas / Trubbish / Kabuto / Slowpoke and tricks a Scarf onto Lickitung / Lileep. Frillish can still switch out, and I guess Stockpile Shellos holds its own, but other than that, the previously top notch stall mons are all but shut down. Pursuit Sandile is all but mandatory now because all of the Gothita-weak mons except possibly Tentacool are barely able to function without their Eviolites, and none of the other Pursuit users are of any use to stall save Shelmet, which is far too weak to use the move effectively. Although Sandile isn't a bad mon by any stretch between Intimidate and Stealth Rock, it drastically limits stall's previously excellent flexibility. Even then, Gothita will still be able to get a key KO, which can open up holes in a composition where every Pokemon matters. I don't think stall has been rendered unviable but I wouldn't call it the next big thing anymore.

Anyways, LC UU has pretty much 0 activity atm so I don't think it's too silly of me to call for some retests (but please correct me if I'm wrong). The main mon I don't think should be banned is Houndour. I get that it has no switch-ins but I think this is the wrong perspective to look at it, because how from what I have seen, offense is the big thing, meaning dedicated wallbreakers aren't very good, except for the few months before where stall was extremely strong, meaning the wall-breakers at the time were ineffective. For all its offensive power, Houndour has low bulk and plenty of weaknesses, making it extremely difficult to get into play bar a revenge-kill, and very easy to force out - not great for dog when it's vulnerable to every entry hazard. In other words, it's a wall-breaker. Sucker Punch makes it more threatening to offense than, say, Cranidos, but it's unreliable to say the least. Its Speed tier is pretty good, but certainly not anything to write home about when the birds can outspeed it and play around Sucker Punch with Quick Attack (Doduo usually OHKOes Hasty dog with Quick Attack after Stealth Rock, by the way). Basically, I'm not seeing what makes Houndour so much better than our current top offensive Pokemon to warrant a ban.
Also, Houndour doesn't even beat stall because 1. Kabuto is super good on stall and Kabuto learns Aqua Jet, 2. Tentacool is arguably even better and Tentacool walls Houndour, and 3. +2 Modest LO HP Grass doesn't OHKO Shellos and +2 Modest Fire Blast doesn't OHKO Lickitung, so Houndour doesn't even get to sweep on the off chance it finds the opportunity to set up and Kabuto/Tentacool are down. I guess it wins in conjunction with Gothita, but Houndour definitely isn't the only thing that beats stall in conjunction with Gothita.
 

Merritt

no comment
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Head TD
Hippopotas moved from LC UU to LC OU
Torchic moved from LC UU to LC OU
Houndour moved from LC OU to LC BL
Skrelp moved from LC OU to LC BL
Anorith moved from LC UU to LC OU
Cranidos moved from LC OU to LC UU
Pancham moved from LC OU to LC BL
Gothita moved from LC UU to LC OU

Rises and Drops, even though this is mostly dead. Worth updating OP for I guess.

RIP Sand, RIP Torchic, RIP Anorith, RIP Gothita.

Welcome back Cranidos.

Everything else is already banned.
 

Anthiese

formerly Jac
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
OP is updated, thanks Merritt

What I can say is that, thank the gods I've stopped building Sand and build a lot of VoltTurn and Birdspam. That being said, Cranidos will be a somewhat eh re-entry. Losing Hippopotas was a massive blow. Losing Torchic I guess hurt. Personally I wasnt a large fan of Chic but I didnt feel it had to go. That being said I can feel the meta wont shift that much without Hippo. There's still a bunch of bulky mons to play with like Frillish, but it does pave the way for offense.
 
Just from a balance perspective, I think sand being gone is a positive thing, less restriction to teambuilding and all that. But I'm new to this meta so what do I know...
 

Anthiese

formerly Jac
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Just from a balance perspective, I think sand being gone is a positive thing, less restriction to teambuilding and all that. But I'm new to this meta so what do I know...
There's no need to proclaim that since you're new, you dont know anything. While you're less experienced, you still notice trends and shit.

I do agree that Sand was really strong and I do miss it being a thing. But since all I run is VoltTurn with a bunch of stallbreakers, I guess i have some building ot do. Balance is still viable imo but finding stable cores is kinda hard when Doduo breaks everything open but tbh if you have enough mons on your team to harass it, it shouldnt really be a big issue in the end.
 

Anthiese

formerly Jac
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
REVIVAL (bc teir shift)

So Chic and Hippo are back, welcome back babies! We'll enjoy you for another 3 months and re-lose you again.

(so is Dour Skrelp and Cham but no they arent getting unbanned)

thoughts?
 

Merritt

no comment
is a Tournament Directoris a Site Content Manageris a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Head TD
I can't think of anything that's made torchic not-amazing while it's been gone. It's still really good, the LO set is a fantastic cleaner and can dent and flee midgame pretty well. All around just solid and really good at just being an offensive threat. It switches in on basically nothing, but that's a minor flaw.
 

fanyfan

i once put 42 mcdonalds chicken nuggets in my anus
Corphish moved from LC OU to LC BL
Meowth moved from LC UU to LC OU
Pancham moved from LC OU to LC BL
Surskit moved from LC OU to LC UU

If anyone still plays this, you gained Surskit, lost Meowth. Since sticky web is banned, Surskit seems kind of meh. And losing Meowth might shake up the meta. I'd love to see an experienced LC UU player talk about these changes, but until then, I decided to try and give this thread some activity. Have a nice day.
 

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