Litten, Torracat, Incineroar Discussion

Would he be able to pull off a bulk up leftovers set at all? Or would it just be better to go with fake out and an assault vest?
 
its too slow for scarf...but in VGC with intimidate and fake out itll be pretty good. Something like Fake Out/EQ/Sucker Punch/Flare Blitz with AV um...yeah this thing isnt that bad. Everyone at first was kinda disappointed with the stats of the starters but at the very least Incineroar and Prim will get work down in UU.
One little teensy little hiccup there; Incineroar does not get Sucker Punch.
 
So...the main EV spread for this Pokemon will be focused on HP and Attack...right? or is it good to invest in Speed too?

I'm thinking something like:

Incineroar@Leftovers/Assault Vest/Incinirium-Z
Adamant
Intimidate
252 Hp/ 252 Atack/6 SpDef
Bulk Up/Sword Dance/Fake Out (In case you equip it with an Assault Vest)
Flare Blittz/Flame Charge
Darkest Lariat
Leech Life

Or

Incineroar@Leftovers/Rocky Helmet
Careful
Intimidate
252 Hp/252 SPDef/ 4 Attack
Will-O-Wisp
Leech Life
Crunch (Defense drop)/Darkest Lariat
Taunt
 
Does anyone think Torrocat, might, just might have some PU viability?
I think it's more than just a "might," I'm going to go with a "definitely". It's movepool, spread, and hidden ability give it a very defined niche as a pivot. Example:

Torracat @ Eviolite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp/Toxic
- U-Turn
- Fire Blast

Defensive typing isn't great, but between Eviolite and Intimidate it definitely has some pseudo-physical bulk while also possesing a great speed tier for PU standards and a great supporting movepool. Fast Taunt is annoying to deal with for a lot of Pokemon, Will-O can help improve its physical bulk even more while Toxic can help further Stallbreaking, U-Turn preserves momentum, and Fire Blast is a decently strong STAB option without recoil.
 
I was thinking something like this:
Incineroar @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk /4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
- Flame Charge/ Flare Blitz
- Throat Chop
Basically you come in on something passive or something that doesn't break your sub at -1 like scarf Jirachi or Weavile without Low Kick and you either set up a sub or use Flame Charge if you predict Mega Gardevoir or Sylveon coming so now you outspeed them the next turn and then you Throat Chop them, which is enough to KO Mega Garde and it cockblocks Sylveon so you can set up on it. At +1 it outspeeds mons up to 113 speed (Serperior). Throat Chop blocks Heal Bell from mons like Chansey, Mega Altaria and Togekiss and shuts down sound based moves that could hit you behind your sub. It also prevents Roarcune and Perish Song Celebi from stopping your setup. Swords Dance lets you set up for free on Mega Sableye, Amonguss, Tangrowth, Ferrothorn etc. Flare Blitz is an option if you need more of a wallbreaker.
I'm not sure if it will be any good, but it sure has a lot of wallbreaking potential thanks to its bulk and Throat Chop. It's something new that could really work
 
I've been thinking isn't Tapu Bulu basically Incineroar's best friend?

  • Grassy Terrain basically kills EQ which is the most common ground move and what Incineroar normally need to watch for
  • Grassy Terrain gives Incineroar some extra passive healing which will help make the bulky cat more bulky
  • Incineroar's 4 weaknesses are ground, water, fighting, and rock and Tapu Bulu covers all them in fact NOTHING weak to grass will want to come in on Tapu Bulu.
  • Any grass types that come out in hopes to benefit from Bulu's terrain will be running for the hills from Incineroar
  • Incineroar in return covers the steel and ice weaknesses big time, though grassy terrain will prevent it from effectively dealing with poison and fire as well as it could. Regardless most of Bulu's common checks like Scizor or amoonguss are not wanting to come into a flare blitz or a flame charge.
  • Incineroar can run STAB snarl effectively which would pretty much mitigate Tapu Bulu's weaker special defense area if you wanted to.

I'm not sure a good doubles set for the two of them but it feels like they have a lot of potential as partners and that Tapu Bulu could really help Incineroar shine. Main issue mostly be that both of them are lacking in speed which is why I think I'd take advantage of Bulu increasing Incineroar's durability to get off an easy flame charge for the speed increase. Then have Incineroar focus on taking down the faster threats to Bulu and Bulu playing clean up.
 
I've been thinking isn't Tapu Bulu basically Incineroar's best friend?

  • Grassy Terrain basically kills EQ which is the most common ground move and what Incineroar normally need to watch for
  • Grassy Terrain gives Incineroar some extra passive healing which will help make the bulky cat more bulky
  • Incineroar's 4 weaknesses are ground, water, fighting, and rock and Tapu Bulu covers all them in fact NOTHING weak to grass will want to come in on Tapu Bulu.
  • Any grass types that come out in hopes to benefit from Bulu's terrain will be running for the hills from Incineroar
  • Incineroar in return covers the steel and ice weaknesses big time, though grassy terrain will prevent it from effectively dealing with poison and fire as well as it could. Regardless most of Bulu's common checks like Scizor or amoonguss are not wanting to come into a flare blitz or a flame charge.
  • Incineroar can run STAB snarl effectively which would pretty much mitigate Tapu Bulu's weaker special defense area if you wanted to.

I'm not sure a good doubles set for the two of them but it feels like they have a lot of potential as partners and that Tapu Bulu could really help Incineroar shine. Main issue mostly be that both of them are lacking in speed which is why I think I'd take advantage of Bulu increasing Incineroar's durability to get off an easy flame charge for the speed increase. Then have Incineroar focus on taking down the faster threats to Bulu and Bulu playing clean up.
You know, I was thinking... Tapu Bulu is probably the best friend of a LOT of Pokémon lol.
 
How about Spiteful Splash, or Fearsome Firebird?

They both work while keeping the name of the actual move.
Which is 450 Splash or Firebird Splash.
I'm just gonna call Malicious Moonsault the Burning Hammer and Darkest Lariat the Clothesline from Hell and call it a day.

I'd also like to point out though that Kukui has an alter ego that is a freakin Luchador. GF/Nintendo knows how big wrestling is in Hawaii/Samoa/most other Polynesian Islands. Either The Rock or someone in his family (which if you know your wrestling history you know is BIG) joked that wrestling came before church.
 
I'm not very invested in this thing because I'm not the biggest fan of its design, but I want to see it work because it's a starter and I want all the starters to do well. So, just in case it was missed, I wanted to point something out that will hopefully lead to some different sets with this thing:

Incineroar has almost the exact same stats as Swampert, except it trades 5 HP for Attack. It doesn't have the amazing defensive typing Swampert does, but it does get WoW and Intimidate (and Snarl, if you can work it in).

That's all, carry on.
 
Looking pretty decent for VGC. Gets tons of utility in Intimidate + Snarl, plus having Fake Out (which is a godsend) and Throat Chop to potentially stop Sylveon. Best of the starters IMO.
 
I think this whole thread's been underrating the crap out of this thing. The bulk's really good considering it has Intimidate, it hits hard and it has a great movepool outside of not having Sucker Punch for some sad reason. It's got a bunch of different offensive and defensive sets it can run. I'm seeing this as UU at worst.

All-out Attacker
Incineroar @ Choice Band / Incineroarium Z / Fireium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe (or 72 HP / 252 Atk / 184 Spe)
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Darkest Lariat
- U-turn
- Cross Chop

This thing's gonna be a mean wallbreaker and pivot on bulky offense. Checks Bulky + Band Scizor, Jirachi, Weavile, Victini and others while breaking through just about everything aside from like Suicune (at least with Choice Band). It's got all the coverage it needs aside from lacking something for Water/Fairy and has U-turn to shift momentum into its team's favor. I can't see this not being useful in OU.

The first EV spread will outspeed bulky Mega Scizor and Skarmory while the latter beats Mega Venusaur, Mandibuzz and speedless Heatran. Speed creep on 68 Spe EVs Heatran can be done with 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe.

Band calcs:
252+ Atk Choice Band Incineroar Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 259-306 (65.9 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Z-Crystal calcs:
252+ Atk Incineroar Malicious Moonsault vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 207-244 (49.2 - 58%) -- 60.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Incineroar Inferno Overdrive (Flare Blitz) vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 219-258 (52.1 - 61.4%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Incineroar Darkest Lariat vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 146-174 (37 - 44.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Incineroar Malicious Moonsault vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Slowbro: 306-362 (77.6 - 91.8%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 174-205 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Bulky Pivot
Incineroar @ Leftovers / Assault Vest
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 128 HP / 252 Atk / 128 Spe (or 240 HP / 252 Atk / 12 Spe)
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Darkest Lariat
- U-turn / Leech Life / Toxic / Will-o-Wisp
- Cross Chop / Earthquake / Toxic / Will-o-Wisp

Nearly identical to AAA except more focused towards durability of course. If you run Wisp and Leftovers or Earthquake on this set, you can check Aegislash really well, presuming that it's unbanned at the start of the generation. Fire Blast or Dark Pulse are other possibilities for that purpose, but probably less optimal.

-1 0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 136-160 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- 57.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 229-270 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Incineroar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 154-182 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Aegislash-Shield: 276-326 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Bulk Up
Incineroar @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 244 SpD / 12 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Flare Blitz / Darkest Lariat
- Substitute / Sleep Talk
- Darkest Lariat / Rest

I don't think this set will be as successful as the others, especially with Azumarill, Tapu Fini, Keldeo and Primarina probably all running around OU, but it's interesting enough. Enough Bulk to set up, but the 5 weaknesses may hold it back.

Defensive

Incineroar @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- U-turn / Will-o-Wisp / Toxic
- Will-o-Wisp / Flare Blitz
- Darkest Lariat
- Cross Chop / Toxic

Similar to the bulky pivot set, but more focused on just tanking those hits. With the lack off attack investment Leech Life isn't quite as good here, so no recovery outside Leftovers, but that's still not so bad since the bulk can carry it. This set should definitely be running a status move. Roar is also worth considering.

-1 0 Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Incineroar: 96-114 (24.3 - 28.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Incineroar: 161-192 (40.8 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Incineroar: 166-196 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bug Bite vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Incineroar: 93-111 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Incineroar: 95-112 (24.1 - 28.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Incineroar: 191-226 (48.4 - 57.3%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Incineroar: 140-166 (35.5 - 42.1%) -- 89.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Just keep those darn Stealth Rocks off the field and it's good.
 
Nice sets but on the all out attacker while it has little issues 2HKOing pretty much everything under the sun that doesn't resist it...can it's bulk really let it survive long enough to 2HKO it with that speed?
 
Intimidate is nice but someone said it earlier, as far as its bulk goes it's really Swampert with a worse defensive typing
 
What about a SD set to break stall teams? It's basically like Jaguar360's AAA set but swaps U-Turn for SD to make it a more potent wall-breaker.

Incineroar @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Darkest Lariat
- Swords Dance
- Cross Chop / Leech Life

The spread is made for outspeeding Heatran, but would obviously be adjusted depending on the tier Incineroar ends up in.

On a side note, I'm wondering if Throat Chop may be better on defensive sets, maybe even some offensive ones. The utility of blocking sound moves may be worth the loss of 5 BP.

Edit: Actually 184 Speed EVs aren't enough to out speed 68 Spe Heatran. You need 208.
 
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If it's made to deal with Heatran isn't EQ a more logical move choice than cross chop or Leech life?
It's made to break stall. Cross Chop is better coverage overall and still murders Heatran. Darkest Lariat easily 2HKOs at +2.

+2 252+ Atk Incineroar Cross Chop vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 418-492 (108.2 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Since I'm picking Incineroar, I wanted to know if anyone could critique my planned moveset

Darkest Lariat
Flame Charge- to increase speed
Maybe swords dance or bulk up
I haven't decided on the final move, though I need something to counter water and other weaknesses

Any critique?
 
What about a SD set to break stall teams? It's basically like Jaguar360's AAA set but swaps U-Turn for SD to make it a more potent wall-breaker.

Incineroar @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 48 HP / 252 Atk / 208 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Darkest Lariat
- Swords Dance
- Cross Chop / Leech Life

The spread is made for outspeeding Heatran, but would obviously be adjusted depending on the tier Incineroar ends up in.

On a side note, I'm wondering if Throat Chop may be better on defensive sets, maybe even some offensive ones. The utility of blocking sound moves may be worth the loss of 5 BP.

Edit: I didn't actually double check Jaguar's calculations, but actually 184 Speed EVs aren't enough to out speed 68 Spe Heatran. You need 208.
The first EV spread will outspeed bulky Mega Scizor and Skarmory while the latter beats Mega Venusaur, Mandibuzz and speedless Heatran. Speed creep on 68 Spe EVs Heatran can be done with 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe.
But yeah, this SD stallbreaking set should be solid I think. Full stall teams are gonna hate this thing and it has just enough bulk to get a kill or two against offense without setting up. Its viability depends on how often defensive teams will be used and how much Tapu Kini/Azumarill/Keldeo we'll be seeing in OU.

Since I'm picking Incineroar, I wanted to know if anyone could critique my planned moveset

Darkest Lariat
Flame Charge- to increase speed
Maybe swords dance or bulk up
I haven't decided on the final move, though I need something to counter water and other weaknesses

Any critique?
For the main story (which from your wording it seems like it is) this should be a fine set with Leech Life or Earthquake to finish off the set. Competitvely its too slow and not quite bulky enough for Flame Charge to be viable. If it had 65 or 70 speed then maybe it could work. The set Haymaker posted would be good if you want to set up and hit hard. Choice Scarf with U-turn/Flare Blitz/Darkest Lariat/Cross Chop|Earthquake might be a thing if you want to be fast, but idk how good it would be.
 
But yeah, this SD stallbreaking set should be solid I think. Full stall teams are gonna hate this thing and it has just enough bulk to get a kill or two against offense without setting up. Its viability depends on how often defensive teams will be used and how much Tapu Kini/Azumarill/Keldeo we'll be seeing in OU.


For the main story (which from your wording it seems like it is) this should be a fine set with Leech Life or Earthquake to finish off the set. Competitvely its too slow and not quite bulky enough for Flame Charge to be viable. If it had 65 or 70 speed then maybe it could work. The set Haymaker posted would be good if you want to set up and hit hard. Choice Scarf with U-turn/Flare Blitz/Darkest Lariat/Cross Chop|Earthquake might be a thing if you want to be fast, but idk how good it would be.
Thanks, sorry I misread that to say the 184 Speed spread out speeds Heatran. Scarf seems kinda outclassed by Gyarados.
 
But yeah, this SD stallbreaking set should be solid I think. Full stall teams are gonna hate this thing and it has just enough bulk to get a kill or two against offense without setting up. Its viability depends on how often defensive teams will be used and how much Tapu Kini/Azumarill/Keldeo we'll be seeing in OU.


For the main story (which from your wording it seems like it is) this should be a fine set with Leech Life or Earthquake to finish off the set. Competitvely its too slow and not quite bulky enough for Flame Charge to be viable. If it had 65 or 70 speed then maybe it could work. The set Haymaker posted would be good if you want to set up and hit hard. Choice Scarf with U-turn/Flare Blitz/Darkest Lariat/Cross Chop|Earthquake might be a thing if you want to be fast, but idk how good it would be.
Thanks for the critique, I wanted to find a moveset that would work for both the main story and competitive
 

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