Let's catalogue the ways in which PS does not replicate cart mechanics

Hipmonlee

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With Dig and Fly we dont really need a patch. You just add a clause that says that while invulnerable you are only allowed to select Dig or Fly. We just have never bothered because the moves arent good enough in OU.
 
With Dig and Fly we dont really need a patch. You just add a clause that says that while invulnerable you are only allowed to select Dig or Fly. We just have never bothered because the moves arent good enough in OU.
I understand, but if we remove the invulnerability part that made Dig/Fly banned, doesn't that mean that we're also obligated to fix moves like Focus Energy and secondary status effect moves?
 

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We're not obligated to do anything other than what we feel is convenient or appropriate, within the context of selecting for a playable competitive metagame
 
We're not obligated to do anything other than what we feel is convenient or appropriate, within the context of selecting for a playable competitive metagame
So that's the argument. If we play by cart rules then Dig, Fly, Psywave, Counter, etc have to be banned.
If we assume Stadium rules for all games, we don't have to worry.
If we play by Custom Patch rules and fix the Psywave Desync problem, then why wouldn't we want to fix Focus Energy and secondary status moves?

Also, I just realized that if we do cart accurate then the best case scenario would be contuining the ban on Metronome (since it can copy a desync attack), Dig/Fly, Psywave, Counter, Mirror Move, and banning teams where one or more of their Pokemon has Ice Beam/Blizzard and a Fire Attack (aside from Fire Spin).

Actually wouldn't we have to also ban Mimic, Transform, and Mirror Move anyway since it can copy a move that would create a potential thaw desync problem by cart accurate rules?
 
DDX2 move bans are unnecessary for dealing with thaw desyncs. Since the pokemon being thawed needs to act second to trigger a desync, it needs to be in play at the start of the turn in order for this to be an issue, as if it's switched in, it won't be acting after being thawed. This means that the player using a Fire move would know that there's a frozen pokemon in play and that using a fire move would probably thaw and potentially desync. Therefore, a desync is incredibly unlikely to occur because knowingly thawing the opposing pokemon is a terrible play. Furthermore, we could simply implement a rule along the lines of "don't deliberately thaw opposing pokemon" and it would resolve the issue while having almost no significant impact on play.

The only impacts that I can see from the rule against thawing is that it could be used to guarantee a subsequent attack wouldn't be a Fire attack, and that if you freeze a Ghost, there can be some scenarios where it ruins sweeps or even breaks down due to some pokemon relying on Fire/Normal coverage. As for the rule breaking down, that would only be the case if the player had literally no option to damage the opponent except for using a Fire attack, which is extremely unlikely to occur, and shouldn't hold much weight
 
Ive played a freeze clause less metagame a lot, and honestly, you basically dont do anything different.

Think about how rarely you ever think "I need to keep my frozen pokemon alive in order to block a second freeze from my opponent". It does happen every now and then, but on the whole its pretty rare... You might think "I will save this frozen pokemon in order to protect me from a dangerous switch later", but that has nothing to do with freeze clause. Mostly freeze clause just protects you from those ridiculous games where Jynx freezes you twice before you've even had a chance to attack it.

Here's a hint for RBY in future: lines where you seek out a freeze in RBY are not actually that great. A paralysed pokemon has to try to ice beam 9 times to have a better than 50% chance of getting a freeze. What damage can your opponent do to your team while you ice beam for 9 turns? Cause if they are sitting there with their own Chansey trying to ice beam you back they are either not very good, or you were already in an absolutely dominant position. And once you've gotten your freeze you are almost always way better off trying to exploit your numerical advantage in some more proactive way than just trying to keep ice beaming things. And remember that even if you do manage to find 9 turns to ice beam against un statused opponents, freezing something isnt an insta-win. It's just not that great.


Sounds arbitrary to me. I could make up some malarkey about how moves learnt in GSC are part of GSC not RBY and make it sound great. But the real reason is that whenever there is a status quo, no matter how arbitrary it may be, it will win out until you convince people that theyd be better off changing. That isnt fear of change, that is just how every decision you are ever going to face in your entire life is going to work.

You can throw scare quotes around all you like, but what Smogon plays is RBY OU. We can change the rules, you just need to engage in terms the people who play RBY OU are actually going to recognise.
Most of the changes I’m suggesting would actually make the game better, but people are against them simply because it’s not what they’re used to. Removing freeze clause is debatable, but allowing tradebacks is literally giving Pokémon more moves and giving players more viable options. How could that possibly not make the game better to play?

Fixing focus energy would be literally fixing a glitch that got fixed later. It would make Pokémon like machamp better, and some might argue that reflect may be less ubiquitous with focus energy jolteon everywhere.

You’ve just said yourself that freeze clause makes little difference, yet people were happy to change game mechanics for it. Yet these changes clearly make the game better by giving Pokémon more viable moves but people don’t want them? I can’t think of a single explanation other than the fact to these people, sticking to what they’re used to is more important than making the meta better.
 

earl

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Most of the changes I’m suggesting would actually make the game better, but people are against them simply because it’s not what they’re used to. Removing freeze clause is debatable, but allowing tradebacks is literally giving Pokémon more moves and giving players more viable options. How could that possibly not make the game better to play?

Fixing focus energy would be literally fixing a glitch that got fixed later. It would make Pokémon like machamp better, and some might argue that reflect may be less ubiquitous with focus energy jolteon everywhere.

You’ve just said yourself that freeze clause makes little difference, yet people were happy to change game mechanics for it. Yet these changes clearly make the game better by giving Pokémon more viable moves but people don’t want them? I can’t think of a single explanation other than the fact to these people, sticking to what they’re used to is more important than making the meta better.
In no way do more options inherently make a meta better- imagine lovely kiss lax if you need an example of tradebacks potentially being detrimental (or at least hurting diversity).
 

xJoelituh

Banned deucer.
In no way do more options inherently make a meta better- imagine lovely kiss lax if you need an example of tradebacks potentially being detrimental (or at least hurting diversity).
Tracebacks + All sleep moves banned. It removes the clause to a better ban, viable in console and more "diverse" metagame.
Anyway, I honestly feel like if you want to do this really close to console, I believe that doing Stadium No team Preview should be the way to go, just for the fact we would have the clauses available(although iirc you cannot randomly select them in Stadium 1, that's just a feature of 2?, someone correct me on this), and you can "circle around" team preview by making both players not look at each others part of the screen.
 
Except... I'm pretty sure you could also "circle around" RBY clauses by implementing the ACE patch I've talked about, so you could still have claused RBY without going with Stadium. Stadium also has the issue with the Pokemon's exact HP being displayed. You'd need to obstruct certain parts of the screen in addition to making sure players can't preview the other's teams. And if that were accepted, now ADV players have to deal with a precedent that could affect them because the same "circle around" tactics could apply to ADV using XD instead of Emerald, "fixing" Sleep Talk mechanics (among other things, iirc Tracing Intimidate works in XD so Porygon2 and to a lesser extent Gardevoir become better)

As for Tradebacks... we really need to properly explore that sometime. I constantly hear about the LK Snorlax boogeyman, but have never seen any evidence of it ruining the metagame. The way people speak of it they act like it'd be worse than UU Tentacruel.
 
Question: Is the explosion/substitute glitch coded in?
I'm only asking as I thought it was a fairly neat way of using an attack that is typically only used once to have a potential to be used more if wanted.
 
Tracebacks + All sleep moves banned. It removes the clause to a better ban, viable in console and more "diverse" metagame.
Anyway, I honestly feel like if you want to do this really close to console, I believe that doing Stadium No team Preview should be the way to go, just for the fact we would have the clauses available(although iirc you cannot randomly select them in Stadium 1, that's just a feature of 2?, someone correct me on this), and you can "circle around" team preview by making both players not look at each others part of the screen.
Stadium is an objectively more competitive meta. There’s a bit less RNG because crit rates got standardised and substitute is everywhere.Focus energy and hyper beam glitches are fixed which makes less games determined by a hyper beam vs body slam 50/50s.

I’d rather we played tournaments on stadium mechanics because it’s basically how the game was meant to be played but people are used to cartridge now so it’s a lost cause.

In no way do more options inherently make a meta better- imagine lovely kiss lax if you need an example of tradebacks potentially being detrimental (or at least hurting diversity).
I don’t see LK lax being that centralising. Sleep functions differently in RBY compared to GSC. In GSC getting sleep early is not that important, and the reason why LK is good on lax is because he can sleep a counter then belly drum and sweep a team. In RBY you have normally slept something before lax comes out, and if you run LK you’re missing out on an attack or reflect/rest which is quite costly. Sleep doesn’t automatically make good Pokémon great. Sing was always a fringe option on chansey for years.
 
I always thought the boogeyman with tradebacks was Amnesia Hypno.
It’d be interesting to see how a trade backs meta would develop. People always say that the “community” didn’t want tradebacks but in reality most of the players who played back then don’t play anymore.

There’s plenty of people who play now that want them, but I don’t really know how you instigate those types of changes with Smogon and Showdown.
 

Deleted User 229847

Banned deucer.
In no way do more options inherently make a meta better- imagine lovely kiss lax if you need an example of tradebacks potentially being detrimental (or at least hurting diversity).
You cited literally the only example of bad tradeback that everyone agreed upon banning, good job. But nevertheless, I agree that more options do not imply better meta, unless we are dealing with RBY that has so few options that a bit of variety can only make things better.
But anyway, tradebacks are illegal because of bad tiering decisions in the past and the conservatism approach of the council afte that, doesn't matter if they are bad or not for the meta (even though they are not).
 
I always thought the boogeyman with tradebacks was Amnesia Hypno.
There are a few more Pokemon that can learn Amnesia through tradebacks aside from Hypno.
Clefable, Nidoking, Persian, Kingler and Tangela

Plus you get some new Sleep-Inducing Users:
Lovely Kiss
Nidoking, Nidoqueen, Poliwrath, Victreebell, and Snorlax

Hypnosis:
Ninetales, Persian, Golduck, Rapidash, and Mr. Mime

Sing:
Raichu

and plenty more changes which shakes up everything.
 
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I for one loathe having a working Substitute, which is why I prefer RBY to Stadium, though I still think Stadium is worth playing. The game just becomes too stally and the cost of breaking out of that stall scenario is often very troublesome. I honestly prefer Reflect spam. Also I dislike the sleep nerf in Stadium- I think that with sleep being restricted via sleep clause (cart-accurate or not), it's really powerful, but not OP and makes for interesting gameplay in terms of how you play around it, and that just doesn't exist in Stadium
 
Is wrap programmed to work on Ghost types?

I was watching this Let's play video, and the NPCs Ekans was able to wraplock Gastly. Granted it did no damage, but it's interesting it is able to do it.
Edit: Since I don't know if it plays at the second selected, the example is at the 3:42 mark.
Edit2: Also Bind by Tangela at 8:18
 
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Is wrap programmed to work on Ghost types?

I was watching this Let's play video, and the NPCs Ekans was able to wraplock Gastly. Granted it did no damage, but it's interesting it is able to do it.
Edit: Since I don't know if it plays at the second selected, the example is at the 3:42 mark.
Edit2: Also Bind by Tangela at 8:18
Pretty sure it is, as this has been known for some time
 
People here aren't the "RBY community", they're an RBY mod community lol. The people who still battle on cartridge or virtual console would be the real RBY community.
The few poketubers playing on tgbdual and project 64 are the RBY community.
 
@Dre89 said @Makkususu I don't think we have to discriminate players based on where they play Gen 1. In my opinion, anyone is free to play Gen 1 on simulator, real cartridges or Virtual Console without fearing to be looked down by someone. By the way, I play on simulator, cartridges and Virtual Console for those who care.
 

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