LC Viability Rankings (Archive)

[Anthiese]

Sewaddle waddle waddle is D rank and im okay with this. <3

Voltorb should be higher, maybe C or B mostly because i use him as a semireliable Yanma check. LO Tbolt maims anything neutral to it, WTF Boom if you cant kill it. Also can run Signal Beam/HP Ice, wow what a set. Plus 20 Spe is a godsend.

Also why isnt based Bunnelby higher up? I can see that treecko is bitching a fit, it's Huge Power conbined with it's high base power move pool strikes fear in weakened pokes. Man i've went from 2-4 to 2-0 causae of that wascally wabbit. (im being serious Bunnelby is hella stronk)

 

[Rowan]

I have a few more which I'm unsure about so I'll think about them and write more on them later, I'll let you know what they are incase anyone has any opinions on them:
Mantyke --> B-tier?
Chinchou --> A-tier?
Porygon --> A-tier?
Croagunk --> A-tier?
Gastly --> C-tier?
Hippopotas --> C-tier?
Abra --> B-tier?
Growlithe --> B-tier?
Shellder --> B-tier?
Helioptile --> C-tier?

So yeah, I've had time to think and read other opinions in this thread and I'm gonna talk about the mons I listed earlier.

Mantyke - not sure because I don't feel I've seen it enough, but as dcae said, it does seem like it'd need more support than other mons in A.

Chinchou - This should definitely be A. Its scarf set threatens so much, it can keep momentum with volt switch and wall threats such as Murkrow and Magnemite

Porygon - Probably A, although it is in the lower half of that tier. Paralysis makes this a great support Pokemon as many mons hate paralysis right now. And the ones that are immune to T-Wave are pretty much walled or KOd by Porygon (Chinchou, Gligar, Magnemite) Great answer to Yanma, Missy, Swirlix and more.

Croagunk - A for sure. Handles Sturdy Smashers, Carvanha, checks Tangela, Swirlix and Fighting types (bar tits), Bunnelby, Pawniard and has access to Icy Wind which discourages Yanma, Gligar and Murkrow from switching into it.

Gastly - not sure because I haven't seen it much, but if someone explained its niche to me, maybe I'd accept it as a B-tier mon. The only noticeable advantage over Misdreavus is a Fairy resistance with STAB Sludge Bomb, but its so frail that it can't survive a +1 Flamethrower after 1 round of LO recoil.

Hippopotas - Deffo C. Yeah it's annoying for sun - but that's all it is, a slight annoyance. Sun sweepers can just take it out with Giga Drain or a Sleep Powder. As a physical wall it is pretty much outclassed by Gligar, its only advantages being Whirlwind (Torchic check anyone?) and the fact that random HP Ices won't KO it. Its pretty weak offensively and if you do want to use a Sand team, it has to sacrifice its bulk with Smooth Rock, or not give Drilbur enough turns to do damage.

Abra - Yea, I don't have much of an issue with it remaining C. It seems outclassed by a lot of other fast attackers.

Growlithe - I think this still could move up to B. It is a great Fighting switch-in, and can burn a lot of shit with Will-o-Wisp. I don't get people using Pawniard as a reason why it isn't good... its not as if you have to switch Growlithe in when Pawniard is out...

Shellder - Definitely B imo. It can set-up on the most common Pokemon in the tier, Gligar, and then just sweep. It can get past most S-B mons with a bit of support from Knock Off, though Pawniard is still an issue.

Helioptile - Move up to C. Great Misdreavus check as many only carry Shadow Ball + T-Bolt. Also great in the sun with Solar Power actually making it a pretty good scarfer.



Raseri, Onix, is bulky (on the physical side) but what is it actually walling with it, besides Dwebble, and maybe Bunnelby (who just breaks Sturdy with U-turn)? Most Physical attackers will carry EQ or a fighting move. It can basically take 2 attacks in a clutch situation before dying. It's not really a great answer to Dwebble as well, because it isn't difficult to attack Onix whilst it switches in, breaking its Sturdy and then setting up later on and KOing with EQ.

 

[Pokechampion]

zigzagoon 4 C, u use him and if he handles 1 attack he heals with juice, belly drums and hits with xtreme speed everything not resisting it HARD, eviolite gligar still gets badly damaged by it.

 

[Chieliee]

Abra - Yea, I don't have much of an issue with it remaining C. It seems outclassed by a lot of other fast attackers.

isn't this what we thought it was in Gen V too? until we discovered it's amazing revenge killing capabilities? Abra can be used to force out any sweeper, including chlorophyll ones(providing something else is already put to sleep)

it's also really fast and it's psychic hits shit like a nuke, especially now that everyone runs berry juice

At least B material, imo

 

[Raseri]

going to make a few of the changes that no one is contesting at all right now.

Chinchou is now A rank
Porygon is now A rank
Archen is now A rank
Mantyke is now B rank
Tirtouga is now A rank
Zigzagoon is Now C rank when i find the mini-sprite :)

Many of the other popular suggestions, primarily Ferroseed, Croagunk, and most of Corkscrew's suggestions, I want to discuss a bit more. But I'll move those tomorrow if there isn't a valid opposition formed. Thanks guys for having good posts so far :)

 

[Sergetank]

> Anorith

Oh man that knife struck me deep in the heart guys. Anorith isn't garbage yo. Well as a rapid spinner yes but you don't have to make it spin to win ok.

I just want to list some things cuz I can't think straight after helping my gf breed 3 boxes of ponyta all afternoon (need to find ditto friend safari or i'm doing to die).

+ 18 Max Speed w/ Nature
+ 20 Max Attack w/ Nature
+ Decently Bulky with Eviolite
+ Swift Swim
+ Swords Dance
+ Knock Off
+ Aqua Jet (pseudo stab in rain and just nice to finish off other mons like all priority does)
+ Rock Blast, which can beat SturdyJuicer Dwebble and anything with a focus sash idk other study juicers (cept magnemite he stronk)
+ 2 Resists, one of which is to Normal which is sorta important in this metagame
+ Bug type that isn't weak to fire or flying, can actually strike them back supereffectively with it's other stab
+ Rock type that isn't weak to fighting or ground or grass
+ One of 2 swift swimmers in LC that isn't weak to Grass and Electric (Lotad too but fuck Lotad)
+ Sweet shiny colouring

+ Occasionally adorable

cute almost

- 3 weaknesses, to water (ouch) steel (ouch) rock (damn it)
- 2 of those have priority and one has the best hazard ever (fuck)
- both stabs resisted by fighting (damn it)
- it evolves into armaldo

pls not garbage tier, it's better than that ok.

pretty pls

 

[Kingler]

The thing is, that's not what you bring it on, is it? You bring it in on stuff that CANNOT ohko you and doesn't have knock off. Torchic is an example of such. Then you can either attack or shell smash and hit stuff etc. Clamperl isn't TOO slow, so it can outspeed stuff like scarf chinchou at +2. Also you can bring it in with stuff like slow volt switch/u-turn/baton pass. Yes, it faces competition from shell smashers, but its sheer power and the fact that it is specially based more than grants it a niche.

Reposting my post about clamperl, it's not D material.
Please move goomy to D, it has no utility whatsoever and is spikes bait for ferroseed AND sd pawniard bait AND CM SWIRLIX AND CM SPRITZE BAIT(sludge bomb does crap). These are some of the biggest threats in the metagame. It walls tangela and fire types i guess, but sucks.

--------
Can we have a carvanha for S discussion? It's an amazingly powerful cleaner and works great with spikes. It's messed up by Tangela, but that's gonna(hopefully) be banned anyway, and ice beam is 2stronk. It can actually survive priority like meditite's bullet punch, and hits like a freaking truck. I think it's better as an attacker than yanma. I'll get back to this argument after further testing.

 

[apt-get]

how is cacnea E rank???

It has good bulk, SD, spikes, swords dance, water absorb... It can setup on a ton of shit, and SD/seed bomb/sucker punch/spikes is a perfectly acceptable set, you can run drain punch if you want for the things that might tank its hits.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

I personally don't understand why Binacle is in the frogs, but maybe someone could explain this.

 

[Nozzle]

Croagunk in B rank is a crime. It's definitely the best utility check in the tier right now.

As Corkscrew said:

Croagunk - A for sure. Handles Sturdy Smashers, Carvanha, checks Tangela, Swirlix and Fighting types (bar tits), Bunnelby, Pawniard and has access to Icy Wind which discourages Yanma, Gligar and Murkrow from switching into it.

Theres just nothing more to add and it's definitely A for me.
Ras i will find you if you don't move it >:(


And yeah Goomy is crap.


I would like to nominate Magby for B. It hits 19 speed, has Belly Drum, priority named Mach Punch, decent coverage and is all in all very threatening if it sets up a Belly Drum.


Why the hell is Tyrunt in C? It actually has very nice typing and is probably one of the best Mixkrow counters out there. Being a Rock type that is not weak to grass and water, has nice bulk, good attack and an ability to back it up is enough to put it in B imo.

GOOMY
IS
CRAP

 

[reiku]

Skrelp should be A-Rank this thing is a beast on the special side, Restalk w/ Sludge Bomb and Scald is a p good set.

Also Skrelp is a very good counter of the 'overused' mons like Meditite / Yanma / Gurdurr / Mienfoo / Tangela (no clorophyl) with restalk it can be the perfect status absorber and it can inducer burn/poison with his STABs.

It gets Adaptability w/ Pokebank so its gonna be more powerful and his spatk is decent, it deserves the A Rank imo

 

[apt-get]

Skrelp should be A-Rank this thing is a beast on the special side, Restalk w/ Sludge Bomb and Scald is a p good set.

Also Skrelp is a very good counter of the 'overused' mons like Meditite / Yanma / Gurdurr / Mienfoo / Tangela (no clorophyl) with restalk it can be the perfect status absorber and it can inducer burn/poison with his STABs.

It gets Adaptability w/ Pokebank so its gonna be more powerful and his spatk is decent, it deserves the A Rank imo

It doesn't have adaptability.

Meditite Zen Headbutts/Thunderpunches it, Timburr knock offs it, usually Yanma will just U-turn on it to gain momentum, Mienfoo will use knock off too, and Tangela can probably 3HKO it with Giga Drain or straight-up OHKO if it's Life Orb offensive with Leaf Storm.

 

[Darkamber8828]

hold on a damn second drifloon is not languishing in d-rank with the likes of voltorb and zubat

-Unburden + Berry Juice + Acrobatics is still pretty damn good
-I mean seriously 30-34 speed is great
-Ghost buff makes Calm Mind sets a lot more threatening
-Ghost buff means dual Ghost core with Misdreavus is even more awesome, as many teams only carry a single Dark- or Normal-type, and Misdreavus has Will-o-Wisp, Destiny Bond, TrickSpecs, and Dazzing Gleam to kill Murkrow, while Drifloon has Will-o-Wisp, Destiny Bond, often runs Substitute to play with Sucker Punch users, and Hidden Power Fighting for Pawniard
-BERRY JUICE + RECYCLE
-Weakness Policy + Stockpile + Baton Pass (or, failing that, Weakness Policy + Will-o-Wisp + Calm Mind + Baton Pass) is scary as shit and it works preeeetty consistently since Drifloon has a lot of common weaknesses
-Weakness Policy still doesn't activate with Knock Off on Showdown >:[

Demand S-rank! Er, B-rank. Or at least C-rank.

 

[Raichy]

It doesn't have adaptability.

Meditite Zen Headbutts/Thunderpunches it, Timburr knock offs it, usually Yanma will just U-turn on it to gain momentum, Mienfoo will use knock off too, and Tangela can probably 3HKO it with Giga Drain or straight-up OHKO if it's Life Orb offensive with Leaf Storm.

Standard set of Meditite doesn't use that because It lose coverage, that means that you are using that specially for X pokemon, same with Zen Headbutt. Timburr Knock Off hims, can't kill him anyway in 1vs1 and even worse with Mienfoo. If Yanma U-Turn, that doesn't mean that Skrelp isn't a good counter and he can get poisoned. Tangela is 2HKO'd since Skrelp is 3HKO'd only If Tangela is max sp atk, and Skrelp is 2HKO'd by Solar Beam with Life Orb since he can 1HKO back. At least, he deserves a B rank, but absoluty not a C Rank.

 

[Phemeto]

Standard set of Meditite doesn't use that because It lose coverage, that means that you are using that specially for X pokemon, same with Zen Headbutt. Timburr Knock Off hims, can't kill him anyway in 1vs1 and even worse with Mienfoo. If Yanma U-Turn, that doesn't mean that Skrelp isn't a good counter and he can get poisoned. Tangela is 2HKO'd since Skrelp is 3HKO'd only If Tangela is max sp atk, and Skrelp is 2HKO'd by Solar Beam with Life Orb since he can 1HKO back. At least, he deserves a B rank, but absoluty not a C Rank.

I was curious on how pokebank would give this this adaptability. Am i missing something that would allow that to be the case?
And without it, Im not sure its going to do anything other than check tangela. sure rest/talk is fun, but using rest is just asking to get setup on, especially with skrelp who (without adaptability) isnt hitting anything that hard. while 50/60/60 defenses are definitely not bad, they also dont really stand out. and if you're going to use a rest/talker why not Munchlax who is an amazing wall, and spritzee can handle the same roll as rest/talk skrelp without the rest/talk. Wish/protect is much safer + aromatherapy to remove statuses without putting yourself to sleep.

Sure it seems great, but this thing doesnt seem to check anything but tangela, which admittedly is nice, i just dont think it does anything else that cant be done by another pokemon.

Meditite either runs Ice Punch, T-Punch, or Zen headbutt, and ive seen all 3 used, so checking 1/3 variants doesnt seem too safe, even though at least half run ice punch.
Mienfoo and Yanma do get the U-Turn, which means you cant really use it against those 2 and you give them a free switch out of it basically.
And there are plenty of Chinchou and Magnemites and misdreavous running around that would ruin skrelps day.

just my 2 cents really. by no means am i an expert, i just dont believe Skrelp is A or B material.

 

[Raichy]

I was curious on how pokebank would give this this adaptability. Am i missing something that would allow that to be the case?
And without it, Im not sure its going to do anything other than check tangela. sure rest/talk is fun, but using rest is just asking to get setup on, especially with skrelp who (without adaptability) isnt hitting anything that hard. while 50/60/60 defenses are definitely not bad, they also dont really stand out. and if you're going to use a rest/talker why not Munchlax who is an amazing wall, and spritzee can handle the same roll as rest/talk skrelp without the rest/talk. Wish/protect is much safer + aromatherapy to remove statuses without putting yourself to sleep.

Sure it seems great, but this thing doesnt seem to check anything but tangela, which admittedly is nice, i just dont think it does anything else that cant be done by another pokemon.

Meditite either runs Ice Punch, T-Punch, or Zen headbutt, and ive seen all 3 used, so checking 1/3 variants doesnt seem too safe, even though at least half run ice punch.
Mienfoo and Yanma do get the U-Turn, which means you cant really use it against those 2 and you give them a free switch out of it basically.
And there are plenty of Chinchou and Magnemites and misdreavous running around that would ruin skrelps day.

just my 2 cents really. by no means am i an expert, i just dont believe Skrelp is A or B material.

Even without adaptability the 30% of burn is very useful, doesn't matter against what poke It happen. You can compare two pokemon that have diferent function. You say that Munchlax outclass him, but how is that true If he can't counter the pokes that Skrelp can? I mean, even If Meditite is using T-Punch or Zen, Munchlax lose 100% of the time and Skrelp only lose If it has Thunderpunch or Zen Headbutt. You can't say that Spritzee does his job better, because the coverage is absoluty different, Spritzee can't dealt with Tangela because he can use Sludge Bomb and Spritzee can't 2hko like Skrelp can. Mienfoo can U-Turn in Spritzee, Yanma can do it aswell and happen the same thing that happen with Skrelp, it is not a good way to say that he doesn't deserve a spot in higer rank.

 

[Kingler]

agreeing with raichy, NOT ALL RESTTALK MONS ARE SAME. they perform different functions. :O
anyway, why is snover in A? i mean, what does it do? sure, check sun i guess, but most mons have a fire move and it cant switch into half of tangela's moveset(granted, the ones it can't switch into are moves that it wont use often, but still). i dont think it utilizes blizzard that well, especially with vulpix running around the tier with tangy. most mons can still take a hit and weak it down with priority. move to B please(unless a substantial argument for it in A is made).

 

[Vileman]

I'd like to see some pokes moving up:
Lickitung's bulk is insane, its an amazing support poke with useful moves like wish, heal bell and dragon tail. Its a good check(Id even say counter) to yanma and to most special attackers, and its an overall good mon.
Get abra to b at minimum, its a lifesaver with the sash set and with his good coverage moves. I dont even know how its down there lol
Im not too sure with this one but i can see swilrx in S rank. It has 2 extremely good sets which require little support and are extremely dangerous.
Wtf is clamperl doing in D, it is indeed outclassed by the other shellsmashers but clanperl has the added bonus of hitting like a nuke before sshing, and lets be real you have to be stupid to get it in vs a knock off user. With more people running berry juice over eviolite, it can pretty much OHKO every offensive mons, and it deals huge damage just to everything but munch, licki, ferro and mantyke.
Wheres goldeen btw

 

[HedgeKnight]

Am I missing something about sewaddle? It looks like a chlorophyll sticky web user with calm mind and okay stats. What's bad about it?

 

[Sergetank]

It's got multiple 4x weaknesses, 6 common weaknesses, vulnerable to every hazard, 40 SpAtk, It's the cutest sticky web users ( Surskit gets the prize for coolest while shiny though ) but Sewaddle isn't going to the top for a while.

 

[Expulso]

Fennekin for D

Although it is mostly outclassed by other fire types, such as Ponyta and Growlithe, Fennekin has carved out a niche for itself with its signature ability, Magician. This allows it to steal the target's item if the attack does not kill. Frillish comes in on your Fire Blast? Take its Eviolite and run. However, this does not work if you are holding an item, so it is forced to hold Berry Juice, a Power Herb, or some other consumable item.

Good strategy: Power Herb + SolarBeam.

 

[DTC]

Snover is great, not sure what you are talking about. "Half the meta kills it" is a gross exaggeration, and let me explain why. As you can see in the viability rankings, 4/5 of the S Pokemon are all weak to Ice. A lot of other Pokemon are also weak to Ice. Choice Scarf Snover can revenge many common Pokemon, like Gligar, Tangela (even in the sun), non Speed Boost Yanma, and so much more. Ice is a great attacking type in LC, and it can actually be pretty hard to switch into Snover since those Blizzard's hurt. Giga Drain is also a pretty good move that beats Water-types and has the side effect of keeping Snover healthy. Another cool attribute about Snover is the Fire-types that would be able to counter Snover hate hail as it removes Morning Sun recovery, and this helps wear them down.

Ice/Grass, while a flawed typing, is one of the best typings for beating Water-types. It resists Water, Electric, and is neutral to Grass and Ice. This means basically no Water-type besides Carvanha and Fire Blast Slowpoke can really do much to Snover.

So yea, basically Snover revenge kills a lot of dangerous threats including hard to revenge threats like Gligar and Chlorophyll Poekmon, Blizzard + hail damage does quite a lot of damage, and it counters most Water-types handily.

 

[Raseri]

k I'll do a few more of the more popular changes now.

Ferroseed is now A-rank
Croagunk is now A-rank
Pancham is now C-rank
Hippopotas is now C-rank
Tyrunt is now B-rank
Shellder is now B-rank


There are a few other that I would like to see a bit more discussion on, particularly Gastly, Goomy, Timburr, and Amaura. I can see arguments being made for 2 different tiers for each of these Pokemon.

About Goomy in particular, is its ability to wall Tangela and other sun sweepers outright enough of a niche for C-rank? I personally think it is, but if you disagree, please post why :).

 

[Kingler]

timburr for A definitely, infact it gives mienfoo competition as a pivot due to access to mach punch and ice punch(hallo gligar! gg).
These viability rankings should be for an example to the community as to what should be used. Hence keep goomy in frogs imo, it can't even OHKO tangela with sludge bomb and is a sitting duck for every. fucking. sweeper.
with the poison buff, gastly is almost as viable as missy imo, A rank.
DTC i tested snover out a little and it's depressingly weak at times. It also has a LOT of issues switching in on stuff it would revenge kill(my prior doubts confirmed), and sun dominates atm. I stand by my motion for B Rank.
Edit-also darkamber makes an excellent point, while snover deals with the best waters, it doesnt deal with all of them and hence isnt the 'best counter' as you suggested. Could we get in a bit of snover discussion too?

 

[Darkamber8828]

Ice/Grass, while a flawed typing, is one of the best typings for beating Water-types. It resists Water, Electric, and is neutral to Grass and Ice. This means basically no Water-type besides Carvanha and Fire Blast Slowpoke can really do much to Snover.

Mantyke, Skrelp, Tentacool all squish it with their STABs while takine neutra hits from Snover. Tirtouga hates hail but outspeeds after a Shell Smash and wrecks it. Shellder Rock Blasts it.

+2 252+ SpA Deep Sea Tooth Clamperl Ice Beam vs. 36 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Snover: 22-26 (95.6 - 113%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

The only Water-types Snover can deal with are Chinchou, Frillish, Wooper, and Shellos, and the latter three are quite uncommon. Also Corphish, but Snover hates Knock Off, and if they run Superpower (although there really isn't room for it usually), you're done.