Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0

[Max Carvalho]

Ok so you obviously did... something to make it go all wonky. Analytic isn't quite the same as a LO boost, because rolls in LC are weird.

Here's the actual calc.

236+ SpA Analytic Magnemite Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 20-24 (80 - 96%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I don't disagree with Mag to S-, though. BJ Chou isn't really a counter, granted, but it kinda never was if Mag was running a SE Hidden Power, regardless of whether or not you run Analytic. Analytic can just possibly save you some damage if rocks are up.

240+ SpA Magnemite Hidden Power Grass vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 16-20 (64 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
152 SpA Chinchou Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite: 15-18 (78.9 - 94.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Mag kills in 3 hits, Chou kills in 2. Scarf Mag outspeeds BJ chou and gets to hit 3 times if chou switches in while chou can attack back exactly once most of the time. That's kind of why you run HP in the first place, in order to deal with Chou. Evio RestTalk Chou still does a pretty damn good job against Mag though, even with analytic.

My biggest issue with Endure/Recycle though is that it gives magnemite horrible 4MSS. Chinchou is now a 100% counter, and you have to give up either thunderbolt (not ideal since now if you want to use electric STAB you switch out) or Volt Switch (which means Mag can't give you nearly as much momentum). Sure, it can work, but it's essentially just forcing a 50/50 vs Diglett akin to Sucker Punch on Pawniard, but this isn't the place to discuss it.

(Also a note to if you want to calc stuff, make sure you're calcing what you want to calc, not the closest equivalent. For example, Analytic is properly implemented in the calculator, so just set mag to 1 base speed and remove the scarf if you want to show its proc, not just slap a LO on it and call it good enough)

Actually if you check, Analytic has for some dumb reason same dgs as non Analytic. With Analytic + Rocks, Mags also 2HKO RestTalk Chou :D You're right on endure being a 50/50 against Dig though.

 

[Berks]

Actually if you check, Analytic has for some dumb reason same dgs as non Analytic. With Analytic + Rocks, Mags also 2HKO RestTalk Chou :D You're right on endure being a 50/50 against Dig though.

That'd be because you didn't make mag slower than chou

 

[Rowan]

Actually if you check, Analytic has for some dumb reason same dgs as non Analytic. With Analytic + Rocks, Mags also 2HKO RestTalk Chou :D You're right on endure being a 50/50 against Dig though.

endure isn't a 50/50 against diglett unless endure has already been revealed. most mag don't wanna run endure in favour of hp ground/grass, and no diglett user would risk clicking rock slide on the small off chance it has endure.

 

[tazz]

Magnemite is really good right now, but not to the degree of abra or timburr (timburr is arguable but not abra) and not above anything else in A+ rank (except spritz but that should be A anyway). I've used berry juice and it's not S- material. It's prone to being knocked off, misses out on the 17 Spe tier, and is crippled once hazards are on the field. Scarf is probably the best set as analytic volt switches are really, really good, but if a ground type or Chinchou is on the opposite team it hinders it's capabilities (hp ground is bad to be locked into), and it's also hindered by diglett.

Mag is good, but it's definitely where it belongs with porygon diglett and fletchling.

Edit: Max Carvalho can I have some reasoning as to why mag warrants a spot over fletch/dig/pory

 

[Frostsama]

What outclasses Chimchar enough to put it in Frog rank?

 

[Tymano]

What outclasses Chimchar enough to put it in Frog rank?

Pretty much every single other fire type is either bulkier (Pony, Larv) hits harder (Dour, Pony, Larv, Darumaka), or has some other quality over it (Torchic can pass speed, Vulpix can put up sun, Dour and Larv both have Dual Stabs) which all make them better Chimchar in some way.

 

[gali]

I wouldn't say chimchar is directly outclassed by anything; fake out+encore+sr+blaze overheat is a cool set. unfortunately 16 speed isn't fast enough to really take advantage of its good traits.

Mag is definitely s- imo, hits really hard & fast with scarf and bj is probably the best offensive pivot in the meta.

 

[Frostsama]

Pretty much every single other fire type is either bulkier (Pony, Larv) hits harder (Dour, Pony, Larv, Darumaka), or has some other quality over it (Torchic can pass speed, Vulpix can put up sun, Dour and Larv both have Dual Stabs) which all make them better Chimchar in some way.

But it hits a decent speed and has access to SR, unlike most fire types in lc.

 

[Merritt]

But it hits a decent speed and has access to SR, unlike most fire types in lc.

Being a fire type with SR isn't really notable, or even something that most teams are looking for. The two best spinners both are able to outpace and OHKO chimchar, making it only really viable as a suicide hazard lead if that's what you're going for, in which case Dwebble would be a better choice, since it has better bulk and Sturdy, meaning that it usually gets up at least two layers of hazards. 16 speed is unfortunately on the lower end for such a frail Pokemon, since it really wants at least 17 so it can tie with Mienfoo, Archen, Drilbur ect. Chimchar is also, as noted, pretty weak and doesn't have some amazing coverage move to separate itself from other fire types. It might not be quite Smog Frog, but it's absolutely not worthy of being ranked, either.

 

[Max Carvalho]

endure isn't a 50/50 against diglett unless endure has already been revealed. most mag don't wanna run endure in favour of hp ground/grass, and no diglett user would risk clicking rock slide on the small off chance it has endure.

Although Diglett could also have Substitute which, granted Mags last used an Electric-type move, is always safe. A good player would be pretty sure that it is able to take out Magnemite anyway.

Magnemite is really good right now, but not to the degree of abra or timburr (timburr is arguable but not abra) and not above anything else in A+ rank (except spritz but that should be A anyway). I've used berry juice and it's not S- material. It's prone to being knocked off, misses out on the 17 Spe tier, and is crippled once hazards are on the field. Scarf is probably the best set as analytic volt switches are really, really good, but if a ground type or Chinchou is on the opposite team it hinders it's capabilities (hp ground is bad to be locked into), and it's also hindered by diglett.

Mag is good, but it's definitely where it belongs with porygon diglett and fletchling.

Edit: Max Carvalho can I have some reasoning as to why mag warrants a spot over fletch/dig/pory

On a more deep note, Magnemite's presence makes it too difficult to it truly abuse Volt Switch (Volt Switching a Ground-type is bad, but if you are Scarf with Dig, it may cost you the game). So yeah, maaybe we could get a rise if Dig actually gets banned, as currently you gotta be too careful when Volt Switching.
About the three mons you mentioned, I think the main reason is Magnemite's easiness to fit in a team, forming VoltTurn cores with the very best Pokémon in the metagame. Individually, Fletchling requires some support to function, which Magnemite doesn't (as much), at the moment I am fine with Diglett being S- too, yet Diglett is pretty much designed to take out some key threats if they appear, while if they don't, dig is mostly appearing to revenge kill weakened threats than anything. Magnemite can do fine and be quite important most of the games, even if the opponent lacks a Fairy- or a Water-type. Porygon is another awesome Pokemon, but, while it may have an actually overwhelming offensive presence, just like Magnemite, it can't provide momentum like it. Basically, that's all about it, but it's a subjective point just like every single one in this thread, so point out where I'm wrong (cus I must be :c).

 

[boo836]

I'm not sure whether this is completely appropriate to post here, but I really, really want to see suspect processes be closely tied to our viability rankings. I'm not suggesting we limit possible nominations to our highest ranking, but I believe that the more controversial suspect tests (Baton Pass, Gothita) necessitate that we limit possible nominations to the higher rankings. It's puzzling, to say the least when the Pokemon we (and other metagames) have put up for suspect aren't recognized as the most viable Pokemon in the metagame.

I don't mean to criticize anyone in particular (and especially not just this metagame) when I say that suspect processes feel rather cheapened when we begin nominating lower A-Rank mons to suspect. If something is truly banworthy, shouldn't they be recognized as metagame-forming threats? Misdreavus, Meditite, Murkrow, Swirlix, ect fit this bill, so why shouldn't other mons fit this standard?

when I get back from work, I'll also nominate Diglett for -S

Edit: ugh my phone refreshes pages when I open other tabs fml

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Good list overall, a few things I disagree with:

I think Shellder and Tirtouga should be switched. Every time I've used Shellder, I've always been disappointed. You have to either give up Icicle Spear which now means bulky Grass types easily beat you, or give up Razor Shell which means you can't touch Steel types. Tirtouga on the other hand has fantastic coverage with just its STABs: only Croagunk and Ferroseed resist both. The SturdyJuice Smash set I'd agree isn't as good as it used to be - Solid Rock Shell Smash with Eviolite is what I run personally, and it never disappoints. In my opinion the Shell Smash hierarchy of LC would be Omanyte > Tirtouga > Shellder = Dwebble > Clamperl > Binnacle.

Rufflet I think could be C+, maybe B-. It's much bulkier than Taillow and Fletchling, can hit hard without recoil unlike Doduo and has access to Superpower, meaning it's one of the few birds in LC that can smash straight through Pawniard and Berry Juice Tirtouga.

Anorith I think could be C or C+, as it's the fastest Stealth Rock setter in LC (bar Diglett who'd prefer to have Substitute or Memento in that slot) and hits pretty hard too. Unlike Drilbur, it can also get through defensive Archen and Vullaby with its STAB Rock Blast, and it packs Knock Off so you can lure in bulky Fighting types and remove their Eviolites. Seriously underrated Pokémon.

Elekid - C+ IMO. It is very fast, but it's extremely fragile and not that powerful. Priority makes it harder for Elekid to do its job.

Shellos. Is Sticky Hold really that good?

Frillish - B-. Great bulky spinblocker, and unlike Slowpoke and Shellos it can do decent damage thanks to STAB Hex (when you're throwing around Scalds and Will-O-Wisps getting the enemy statused is not difficult). It can also run a Scarf set with Water Spout, although I personally think Wailmer and Remoraid do that better. It can also check dangerous Pokémon like Shell Smash Omanyte.

 

[Josh]

Nominating Diglett for S- :O
Diglett is really good in the meta, and is definitely at the same level as timburr/abra imo.

s rank calcs

It can beat foo that doesn't have Evio, or revenge weakened foo preventing regen shenanigans
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Mienfoo: 19-23 (90.4 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 18-26 (85.7 - 123.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Also beats Eviolite pawn, assuming you do well with sub/sucker 50/50s (which are in your favor because you can afford to mess up a few times; they can't).

Easily outspeeds and ohko's non sash Abra.
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abra: 27-32 (142.1 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And brings it down to sash if it sash, for easy revenging.

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Timburr: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Once Evio has been knocked off, diglett can easy revenge.

Diglett fairs similarly well against most of the other top tier mons. The thing about Diglett though is that it doesn't necessarily have to use power to be good. It's job is often just to revenge weakened threats, and prevent them from switching for later use. Having a guaranteed way to eliminate checks is awesome, and it allows things like zigzagoon or fletch to just sweep since their checks have been trapped and killed. Diglett is a far better trapper than Gothita, since it has a much better speed tier and isn't forced to run scarf to trap efficiently.

Anyways, you all have read a lot about Diglett because of the recent suspect. I won't drone on.
Tl;dr: obviously people think it's good or they wouldn't have suspected it; while I don't think it is ban worthy I certainly think it is a top threat in LC and is definitely metagame defining. Diglett to S-!

 

[Sken]

Well, you've got some decent ideas but I don't really agree with them so I feel like posting my thoughts.

I think Shellder and Tirtouga should be switched. Every time I've used Shellder, I've always been disappointed. You have to either give up Icicle Spear which now means bulky Grass types easily beat you, or give up Razor Shell which means you can't touch Steel types. Tirtouga on the other hand has fantastic coverage with just its STABs: only Croagunk and Ferroseed resist both. The SturdyJuice Smash set I'd agree isn't as good as it used to be - Solid Rock Shell Smash with Eviolite is what I run personally, and it never disappoints.

I get where you're coming from but I'm not so sure about this. Let's start with the premise you're never giving up on Icicle Spear since it's Shellder's best attacking move. The choice you have to make is between having a priority move in Ice Shard or a strong stab to hit Steel types, you can choose the one which fits your team the best. The fact that Shellder can have a really decent physical bulk to set up in front of a lot of physical mons is really important, as much as the ability to hit hard multi-hit moves, which lets Shellder break through Sashbra and getting some rolls due to how rolls work in LC. When you say that without Razor Shell you can't touch steel-types you're kinda right, although the only relevant steel types which resist both ice and rock-type moves are only Pawniard and Magnemite. Another point for Shellder is its pure water type, which leaves it with only 2 weaknesses and no x4 ones.

Tirtouga has a great moverpool and sturdy + berry juice, but it lacks of power enough to beat what it wants to. The fact that only 2 mons resist its stabs doesn't mean it has only 2 counters, it is very easy to stop with foongus, pumpkaboo, mienfoo, sashbra, chinchou, timburr and any 17 speed scarf mon (+ croagunk and ferroseed), though I'm sure I'm leaving some mons.

In conclusion, Shellder is better than Tirtouga. I also recommend reading this post for more information.

Rufflet I think could be C+, maybe B-. It's much bulkier than Taillow and Fletchling, can hit hard without recoil unlike Doduo and has access to Superpower, meaning it's one of the few birds in LC that can smash straight through Pawniard and Berry Juice Tirtouga.

I get your point but personally I find it outclassed by any other bird and Superpower ohkoing pawniard is like its only niche. I think it's fine where it is.

Anorith I think could be C or C+, as it's the fastest Stealth Rock setter in LC (bar Diglett who'd prefer to have Substitute or Memento in that slot) and hits pretty hard too. Unlike Drilbur, it can also get through defensive Archen and Vullaby, and it packs Knock Off so you can lure in bulky Fighting types and remove their Eviolites. Seriously underrated Pokémon.

I completelly agree with this, Anorith is really underrated and it's really good in the current metagame.

Elekid - C+ IMO. It is very fast, but it's extremely fragile and not that powerful. Priority makes it harder for Elekid to do its job.

Elekid is awesome in the current metagame. It hits 20 speed which means it can run LO to mitigate its weakness while still outspeeding a lot of things. Elekid has a huge moverpool (Thunderbolt/Volt Switch/Psychic/Cross Chop/Hidden Power (whatever, generally grass)/Ice Punch, Substitute...) and it's one of the biggest anti-meta mons nowadays. It destroys balanced teams and has a good time against offense, 2HKOing every switching-in mon. It definitelly deserves to stay if not raising.

Shellos. Is Sticky Hold really that good?

Yes, it is. It is a good choice for a bulky water with such a good coverage move options and a reliable recovery move in Recover. It's a nice choice for most of semi-stall teams.

Frillish - B-. Great bulky spinblocker, and unlike Slowpoke and Shellos it can do decent damage thanks to STAB Hex (when you're throwing around Scalds and Will-O-Wisps getting the enemy statused is not difficult). It can also run a Scarf set with Water Spout, although I personally think Wailmer and Remoraid do that better. It can also check dangerous Pokémon like Shell Smash Omanyte.

Frillish is generally outclassed as a bulky spinblocker by Pumpkaboo which is just better, and as a bulky water by a lot of mons like Chinchou or Slowpoke. It's niche is being in the half of the way, but being Knock Off weak for a defensive pokemon in Little Cup is too big. The offensive version isn't good enough to deserve B-. It should stay as well.

I hope I didn't make any mistakes but excuse me just in case, it's been a long time I didn't make a long post X)

 

[boo836]

I agree with Sken except on the point that Frillish is outclassed by Pumpkaboo. Sure, i'd rather use pump more but we can't deny that they check completely different things lol

 

[Lange]

Stunky B to B+ / A-

It traps a lot of common LC threats such as Gastly, Abra, and Gothita. Sucker Punch is a STAB priority move that helps against faster Pokemon or against other priority users, and it can help against a weakened Diglett. It has access to Fire Blast to hit Ferroseed and Pawniard, a very powerful "surprise move" in Explosion, and several utility moves such as Taunt, Defog and Memento. Specifically, Taunt prevents Surskit from setting up Sticky Web and it helps against Dwebble, while Memento favors setup sweepers. It has good bulk thanks to its high HP and a good Speed tier, outspeeding all 17 Speed Pokemon such as Mienfoo and Snivy.

 

[kingmidas]

Stunky B to B+ / A-

It traps a lot of common LC threats such as Gastly, Abra, and Gothita. Sucker Punch is a STAB priority move that helps against faster Pokemon or against other priority users, and it can help against a weakened Diglett. It has access to Fire Blast to hit Ferroseed and Pawniard, a very powerful "surprise move" in Explosion, and several utility moves such as Taunt, Defog and Memento. Specifically, Taunt prevents Surskit from setting up Sticky Web and it helps against Dwebble, while Memento favors setup sweepers. It has good bulk thanks to its high HP and a good Speed tier, outspeeding all 17 Speed Pokemon such as Mienfoo and Snivy.

Stunky traps a very limited number of pkmn, thats why its lower, its role on teams is niche, it can be dead weight in a good number of matches. Also diglett tends to beat stunky not the other way around, sash guarantees it and LO has favorably odds as you're forced to predict every turn with more pressure. As your post shows, it wants to do so much but it can't, its forced to run pursuit and sucker 99% of the time, then you have to choose between, fire blast, sludge bomb, taunt, explosion, defog, memento in the last 2 slots, 18 speed tends to be only valuable for beating snivy and pawniard but snivy requires sludge bomb to KO iirc and pawniard requires fireblast, and you can still lose. It also requires you to totally rely on resistances to switch in. Unless you drop sucker and run play rough you do 0 to mienfoo or archen/drilbur that you couldn't already.

 

[rhydonphilip]

Natu to C+... (I get the joke people think i complain just to complain but this is a poke i wanted to ask to upvote a long time already and is the most valid one to argue-about that i thought was underrated)
ahh this poke is interesting imo, mostly i see people complaining about how it loses to most hazard users like <Name any rock type with Sturdy+Juice+SR> and Practicaly spreaking almost any SR setter, what it does....
But... natu's natural type makes it already one of the better checks to fight types, grass types(most notably compleatly blocking: cottonee, foongus) and dealing fairly well against other psychic types with strong offencive mixed set or outwalling them + U-turning them to finish them.
Stats:
Enough to go somewhat bulky and enough to go viable offence hitting 17 speed, 16 sp attack and on the offencive set also 13 physical attack with that.
Niche: U-turn, Viable 2 set's being the mixed set and the Bulky set (and maby if you concider the screen set aswell but i am not a fan of screens at all),
Magic bounce what is a thing on it's own, however if the poke wouldn't be viably able to use ,it's not mutch of a use. It does however do a great job with blocking paralysis, Will-O-Wisp and the already explained Spore/Sleep powder users aswell as checking hazards+ Pressuring them with your awairness (or atleast it should, sady i haven't seen that be true at all >.>)
Some Calcs fo those who did love to see them:

Hide

Offence:
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Heat Wave vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 26-31 (118.1 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Psychic vs. 156 HP / 116+ SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-26 (78.2 - 113%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
116 Atk Life Orb Natu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gothita: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO (HP Fire goth)
116 Atk Life Orb Natu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gastly: 23-29 (121 - 152.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Drifloon: 21-27 (84 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
116 Atk Life Orb Natu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Drifloon: 23-29 (92 - 116%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Giga Drain vs. 156 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Omanyte: 26-31 (118.1 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Giga Drain vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 18-23 (90 - 115%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Psychic vs. 140 HP / 52 SpD Eviolite Pancham: 23-31 (92 - 124%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Psychic vs. 0 HP / 212 SpD Eviolite Pancham: 18-26 (78.2 - 113%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Psychic vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
with SR/Hazard calcs:
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Psychic vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 18-26 (75 - 108.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
116 Atk Life Orb Natu Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Gothita: 16-21 (76.1 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Psychic vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus: 18-26 (72 - 104%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Psychic vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Psychic vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 9-13 (33.3 - 48.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Giga Drain vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 21-26 (84 - 104%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 SpA Life Orb Natu Psychic vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Shellder: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
Defences:
200+ SpA Adaptability Skrelp Hydro Pump vs. 196 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Natu: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
116 Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Natu: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Natu: 16-21 (69.5 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180+ Atk Pancham Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Natu: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Pumpkaboo-Super Shadow Sneak vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Natu: 6-8 (26 - 34.7%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO (lol 0%)
196+ Atk Snubbull Play Rough vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Natu: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 240 SpA Snivy Leaf Storm vs. 196 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Natu: 11-13 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
0 SpA Foongus Sludge Bomb vs. 196 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Natu: 7-9 (30.4 - 39.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
+1 116 Atk Timburr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Natu: 16-20 (69.5 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 116 Atk Guts Timburr Mach Punch vs. 196 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Natu: 4-6 (17.3 - 26%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO

I can't be bothered to list all the resisted grass attacks and fight moves but i named the most treathning once.
All pokes listed above can be 1HKO'd or 2HKO'd(+outspeeds). There is allot more but i just named the most important once.

I actualy saw allot of team support with/from this poke mostly being faster momentum support from the LO set and slow(ish) momentum giving for slower momentum teams.(13-14 speed)
It also because of this more versatile set difference was quite easy to build with.(there also happened to be 2 teams that just wanted Magic Bounce support but i don't include those.)

 

[Celestavian]

So the number of suggestions have been dropping lately, so I compiled some possible changes that could boost discussion:

Pumpkaboo-Super: A- -> A

It's pretty much the premier special wall right now. Being Knock Off and Fletchling weak sucks but besides that it has a lot going for it.

Pancham: B+ -> B

I haven't seen this in a long time and now that it's surprise value has worn off it functions as kind of a mix of Timburr and Mienfoo that retains few of the qualities that makes them good individually.

Elekid: B -> B+

Good with or without Webs, Elekid is pretty hard to switch into if you are unsure if its physical or special.

Onix: B -> B-

Onix had its time to shine a few months ago but now it somewhat feels like an inferior Dwebble.

Taillow: B -> B-

Specs Boomburst sucks. Don't be convinced otherwise. Guts Facade + BB is still pretty strong, but Fletchling really stole this thing's thunder.

Pumpkaboo-Small: B- -> C+

Requires Webs to be decent, as outside of that it's too slow and not really that powerful.


I won't implement any of these changes without community discussion of course but it seems like this thread could use some life. Go ahead and discuss any of these changes, or one of those above, or any of you own that you wish to add!

 

[Merritt]

Taillow: B -> B-

Specs Boomburst sucks. Don't be convinced otherwise. Guts Facade + BB is still pretty strong, but Fletchling really stole this thing's thunder.

I disagree with this. I agree that specs is terrible in almost every way (use LO if you must go special, it hits about as hard and lets you switch moves) but the old standard of physical is still absurdly strong. If you don't resist Facade (and have fairly high physical defense to boot!) you're getting 2HKOed. Period. Taillow can easily clean lategame due to its great speed and absurd power. Even before that Taillow can provide a fast u-turn that actually hurts quite a bit due to Guts.

While Fletchling is a better sweeper due to SD and priority, Taillow actually makes a good teammate since birdspam is still effective, especially since BJ Archen is so popular as the bird check/counter now. Magnemite also isn't exactly the best answer to Taillow either, since it's cleanly 2HKOed. You all know how birdspam works, taillow weakens burd checks, fletch weakens gutsy burd checks and then one of them sweeps.

While Taillow isn't the most effective mon and is slightly overshadowed by the glory of Fletch, it's certainly better than everything in B- and better than a decent portion of B as well.

 

[rhydonphilip]

So the number of suggestions have been dropping lately, so I compiled some possible changes that could boost discussion:

Pumpkaboo-Super: A- -> A

It's pretty much the premier special wall right now. Being Knock Off and Fletchling weak sucks but besides that it has a lot going for it.

Pancham: B+ -> B

I haven't seen this in a long time and now that it's surprise value has worn off it functions as kind of a mix of Timburr and Mienfoo that retains few of the qualities that makes them good individually.

Elekid: B -> B+

Good with or without Webs, Elekid is pretty hard to switch into if you are unsure if its physical or special.

Onix: B -> B-

Onix had its time to shine a few months ago but now it somewhat feels like an inferior Dwebble.

Taillow: B -> B-

Specs Boomburst sucks. Don't be convinced otherwise. Guts Facade + BB is still pretty strong, but Fletchling really stole this thing's thunder.

Pumpkaboo-Small: B- -> C+

Requires Webs to be decent, as outside of that it's too slow and not really that powerful.


I won't implement any of these changes without community discussion of course but it seems like this thread could use some life. Go ahead and discuss any of these changes, or one of those above, or any of you own that you wish to add!

The only change on that i would agree with is the onix one.

Pumpkaboo small is a suicidal lead+ mixed offencive pressure and with LO + Bullet seed it properly doesn't need ''mutch'' attack (ignore how it hit's 17 attack) knowing it hit's higher rolls doing some damage with just 2 hit's.

LO mixed taillow is one of the 2 ways to go idk why you ignore that and only think physical exists.

Pancham has many viable reasons to be B+, Most of it's set's are infact not too amazing/sometimes outclassed by mienfoo but it's pivot set is more then any other poke could do, having 25 HP 18 speed 14-12 defences and 11 speed it outspeeds the 11 speed group, out-slows all 12 speed ''slow momentum'' pokes and has amazing enough defences to keep going even after a super hit, Moldbreaker allows it to compleatly pressure sturdy pokes by 1HKOing them, Parting shot is a thing on it's own and shows amazing uses at stallbreaking + supporting other Bulky Offncive mons aswell as supporting generaly more defencive teams.

I my self LOVE Pumpkaboo-Super and i would love to say the poke right now is godly being able to block both trappers, blocking the strongest special attackers with it's good sp defence + seeing somewhat less fire types like ponyta also adds up a bit. But there are so many things that can make this thing have draw back one including fire types compleatly blocking everything it can do outside of Rockslide what idk why one would run that knowing it doesn't even 2HKO ponyta/1HKO larvesta. so IDK.

Didn't we like discust elekid on september 1st o-o? I mean it's not like it's randome awairness on teams , rater poor defence and not too ballenced pressure outside of web's are going to changing that quickly.

But this is just my opinion.....

Why natu no C+ yet

 

[The Avalanches]

Pumpkaboo A -> A+

No opinion, really. I have used it a fair bit lately, and it's obviously the tier's most prominent spinblocker. The fact that it makes good use of Shadow Sneak helps it beat some of the more annoying Pokemon in the tier, and I can honestly see why it could move up. It evades trappers, has good healing (albeit low in PP) and Bullet Seed is pretty cool.

Pancham: B+ -> B

Agree. Pancham just isn't as effective as its company in B+. It's a great Pokemon, but there are so many Fighting-types it has to compete with, I rarely see a reason to use it on my teams. Parting Shot just isn't enough of a niche to keep it in B+.

Elekid: B -> B+

Thousand times agree. This thing is excellent. It can clean up handily late game, and it can pick up momentum so easily early/mid-game. I already told how I feel about this Pokemon a few posts ago. The argument above me about it being frail is somewhat negated by the fact that only scarfers can outspeed it, and there really aren't a lot of switch ins to it.

 

[gali]

I disagree with Onix moving down.

It's not an inferior Dwebble. Onix has a lot of things going for it that Dwebble wishes it had. Taunt/Roar prevent it from being setup bait like Dwebble is, Its crazy physical bulk lets it live basically any physical attack thats not stab waterfall or hjk. STAB Edgequake is godly and does a lot of damage even off of 14 Attack. It also gets 17 Speed, allowing it to potentially get up rocks vs tauntfoo. Spikes are cool but Dwebble basically sits there getting up hazards for the first 3 turns then dies while Onix can come in and check shit throughout a match (Please dont play Onix like a suicide lead.)

tl;dr Onix is better than you're giving it credit for.

 

[sparktrain]

Pumpkaboo-Super: A- -> A

I support this one. As Hawk touched on, it's a very effective wall at the moment, and its great overall bulk lets it take on the most common spinners with ease. Though Pump can't punish Fire-type switch-ins nearly as well as other Grass-types can (Spore or a potential Sludge Bomb poison in Foongus's case, Thunder Wave in Ferroseed's case), as it struggles to fit Rock Slide in its set (which is kinda weak anyway), it still pulls its weight and performs its niche very well thanks to its typing and bulk, not to mention it doesn't care a single bit about trapping, so I'd support a rise.

Pancham: B+ -> B

Also support this. Pancham is still an effective mon on the right teams (Parting Shot is really neat support for setup mons after all), but facing heavy competition from Mienfoo and Timburr for a teamslot really hampers its overall viability. I'd even argue that Croagunk, which currently shares a rank with Pancham, is easier to fit on a team courtesy of its added resists + Water immunity, priority, and ability to check Fairy-types more easily. Even when you take trappers into consideration, Croagunk can still chunk them with a priority move before going down. Pancham also can't check Pawniard quite as effectively as any of these other Fighting-types, as it lacks priority or in Mienfoo's case, higher Speed and Regenerator. Pancham certainly has its niche, but I feel that a drop would be fine.

Onix: B -> B-

I disagree here. Tahu sums up my opinion on this pretty well. Onix's ability to continue functioning effectively throughout a match alone sets it apart from Dwebble, plus its better Speed tier, Taunt, and STAB EQ are all really helpful advantages for it as well. I think Onix is appropriately placed where it is.

I'm neutral on Elekid and Pumpkaboo-Small. I'm neutral on Taillow as well, but it shouldn't be moved down on the basis of Specs being bad, because Life Orb is the way to go on sets with Boomburst.

 

[eren]

Ok
The lower tiers are a disgrace imo

I have also challenged Mambo to a bo9 with our team archive teams and will be playing on the pokemonshowdown.com server

I'll start with the one im most passionate about, and will possibly make more posts later

Wingull from D -> C
This thing is a monster oml. Since many of you dont know what this does heres the set I used on my team requested by Merritt (so thanks for showing this monsters abilities) in my team archive here which probably most of you have seen:

pierce the heaven (Wingull) @ Life Orb
Ability: Rain Dish
Level: 5
EVs: 236 SpA / 36 Def / 236 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 19 HP
- Scald
- Hurricane
- Knock Off
- U-turn

Wingull has the very spammable move in Knock Off, which separates it from Mantyke, and allows it to beat down its own counters, such as Chinchou, especially BJ or scarf variants, quite easily (presumingly on the switch-in). Also equipped with another great move in U-turn, it allows Wingull to circumvent any potential bad matches barring things such as Elekid or the ubiquitous Diglett, however it cannot be trapped by Diglett. Furthermore, Wingull has a powerful, however somewhat unreliable STAB in Hurricane. Here is a calc against both Chinchou (BJ variant) and Ferroseed (before and after Knock Off)

calculations

Vs chou
236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Chinchou: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Vs Ferroseed

(With eviolite)
236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-12 (40.9 - 54.5%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

0- Atk Life Orb Wingull Knock Off vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Ferroseed: 4-5 (18.1 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO

(Without)
236 SpA Life Orb Wingull Hurricane vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Ferroseed: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

In conclusion, telling any potential lc player that Wingull is as good as Piplup, Azurill, Mankey, and Litleo is just ludicrous. Please raise. Thank you