Metagame LC UU Introduction and Discussion [Sticky Web Banned]

[Camden]

Little Cup UnderUsed​

Banlist: Abra, Aipom, Archen, Bunnelby, Carvanha, Chinchou, Corphish (BL), Cottonee, Croagunk, Diglett, Drilbur, Dwebble, Elekid, Ferroseed, Fletchling, Foongus, Gastly, Gothita, Honedge, Houndour (BL), Larvesta, Lileep, Magnemite, Mienfoo, Munchlax, Omanyte, Onix, Pancham (BL), Pawniard, Ponyta, Porygon, Scraggy, Shellder, Skrelp (BL), Snivy, Snubbull, Spritzee, Staryu, Stunky, Surskit, Timburr, Tirtouga, Vullaby, Vulpix (BL), Zigzagoon (BL), LC Ubers
Banned moves: Shell Smash, Sticky Web

Welcome to LC UU, the tier where even the pipsqueaks of the pipsqueaks get a chance to shine! The goal of this tier is to simply have an alternative for those that wanna mix things up a bit. Just like how UU is with OU, LC UU experiences tier shifts so the metagame actually experiences changes on occasion. Besides that, we follow the same rule as standard LC. Feel free to use this thread to discuss the metagame, including any possible strategies you've been using, or even possible suspects for the tier. If you have any questions ask them here and we'll be happy to help you out!

LC UU Council:

QuoteCS (Tier Leader)
Jac
Omastar42
H&MBerkeley
metaphysical
Fiend Hound
Joltage
Cheir
Kingmidas

 

[Camden]

So now that we've got this new thread, I think it's time for the next suspect. In an effort to make LC UU more fun and balanced, we will be suspecting Sticky Web. In this tier, Sticky Web has proven itself to be a centralising force because of the the powerful offensive pokemon that can abuse it, as well as the tier's spinners and defoggers being easily checked by Pumpkaboo and Mankey respectively, making them unreliable at their jobs. The metagame has now progressed to a point where most matches are either webs vs. webs, or some sort of anti-web team which as mentioned, is still risky.

The process is simple. We'll have some discussion and encourage as much play as possible while the council votes over the next few days. Once we have our decision I will report the results. Have fun!

 

[lcuuftw]

First of all, I just want to report that I just played a team with Skrelp and Houndour on the ladder, so it doesn't seem like they're properly banned right now.

As for the Sticky Web suspect: Has this tier really been explored enough for us to answer this question? There were 57 total ladder battles in July. I'm sure there are plenty of battles outside of the ladder, but unless people have been going crazy with LC UU outside the ladder, LC UU is far from a fully developed metagame. In my personal experience, I haven't even seen much Sticky Web at all. I've played 10+ LC UU ladder battles and I've seen one other Sticky Web team. (Full disclosure: I have used Sticky Web in all of those battles, although that's honestly 100% because Cubone is my favorite pokemon). It's hard for me to justify banning an entire playstyle on the basis of such little evidence.

With that said, I would be against any Sticky Web ban on a theoretical basis as well. I want to especially dispute the following point:

the tier's spinners and defoggers being easily checked by Pumpkaboo and Mankey respectively, making them unreliable at their jobs.

Anorith, despite appearing in only 8 combined ladder battles in the last two months, is a very reliable spinner. First of all, it can function as a nice anti-lead to Spinarak, OHKOing with 3 hits of Rock Blast (rarely OHKOs with 2). It takes little from Poison Jab and can survive Megahorn with Eviolite or with Berry Juice + some HP investment. Once Sticky Web is down, Anorith still hits 12 Speed, which allows it to outspeed Pumpkaboo and usually 2HKO with Knock Off:

156 Atk Anorith Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 84 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Large: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO

And Anorith is not the only option. There are actually several spinners in LC UU that can heavily damage Pumpkaboo on the switch in:

156 Atk Sandshrew Knock Off vs. 84 HP / 236 Def Pumpkaboo-Large: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Kabuto Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 84 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Large: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
204 Atk Bergmite Avalanche vs. 84 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Large: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Unlike Anorith, Sandshrew and Kabuto do not outspeed after Sticky Web and thus cannot afford to stay in for the 2HKO, but both can remove Eviolite and put Pumpkaboo within kill range. Even Tentacool can hit semi-cripple Pumpkaboo with Knock Off and then hit fairly hard with Ice Beam.

As for Defog, I don't think Mankey in LC UU is nearly the counter to Defog that Pawniard is in LC OU. Unlike Pawniard, Mankey doesn't have the benefit of priority. It also doesn't have Pawniard's great defenses and typing and is OHKO'd by many of the Flying-type Defog users in LC UU. Some of these prospective Defoggers either outspeed (Doduo, Taillow, Wingull) or speed tie (Rufflet) with Mankey, meaning they can Defog as Mankey switches in and still OHKO before Mankey has the chance to do anything (as long as it isn't Scarfed of course).

Finally, Rapid Spin and Defog are not the only ways to beat Sticky Web. Taunt (Meowth, several others) can help. Magic Bounce Natu can be extremely hard for Sticky Web teams to play around. And then there are Pokemon (Inkay, Flying-types) and playstyles (Sand, Trick Room) that to some extent bypass or even benefit from the effects of Sticky Web.

tl;dr: There are tons of potential answers to Sticky Web. These options have not been sufficiently explored for Sticky Web to be banned at this time.

 

[Berks]

Though I've still yet to have too much difficulty playing against Webs I expect to give user: Omastar42 a run for LCPL wins with them (hint: anti-anti-web team incoming)

Outside of the obvious joking (or is it?? o_0) I'll be heading up the anti-Webs ban side, as I believe there are several great ways to handle Webs in this tier, and many of them are simply unexplored as of yet. Though they seem to offer a bigger advantage down here than up in the big leagues and even though once again I believe the lesser used webs setter is better (Spinarak can beat Snivy in OU and Sewaddle doesn't get demolished by Inkay) I also believe the tier can adapt around webs.

E: Also wow we already have a ftw user, success

 

[Berks]

OH AND ONE MORE THING

Riolu is S-rank for a whole bunch of reasons and one of them is the fact that using it can nullify nearly any Sticky Web team. With a combination of Blaze Kick and Copycat it is near impossible for any Spinarak or Sewaddle to get webs up solely on the opposing side. As the user above my first post mentioned, sticky webs certainly have quite a few answers.

The real question lies in this: how effectively can sticky web teams get around their answers? Are those answers better in theory than in practice??

Find out next week on LC UU, same time, same great channel n_n

 

[Joltage]

Because of the fact that nobody really plays on the ladder, usage stats and the like are not reliable for what the meta truly is. Members of the council have been focusing our attention on the more competitive matches that exist in LCPL. And while webs being "difficult" to deal with was cited as a reason for the suspect, which like you, I actually don't think it's that difficult, more so just annoying to deal with; the main reason for the suspect id the centralizing force that they have on the meta. Basically, you have to have something to remove webs or hella levitaters and flying types or you're likely to get tossed.

Like I said though, I really don't feel that webs (or Magby, which I know some people feel is broken as well (Not relevant to this post, but yeah)) is something that absolutely needs to go, but I've also never felt that suspecting something is necessarily a bad thing. For the record, I've yet to use webs in LC UU because I like running other things, so I don't know what it's like to play with webs. All I know is that playing against them is mildly annoying, and that they're always something you have to prepare for. I'm on the fence though at the moment, so we'll see how my opinion changes over the next few days.

 

[lcuuftw]

I know, I was primarily citing the usage stats to point out the lack of evidence we have to use as a basis for banning Sticky Web. LCPL might be a better indication of the meta, but there's no way there have been enough LCPL battles to explore all the options. Developing a meta takes time, and it's going to take more time when there are fewer people involved.

I don't think suspecting is necessarily bad, but I definitely hink they're bad if they lead to premature bans.

 

[Oma]

H&MBerkeley get ready for anti anti anti webs
Anywho time to lay down my thoughts on webs in this tier. To me webs seems to not be broken per se, however it is without a doubt the dominant playstyle and hard to counter. The support it provides is excellent, letting slow Pokemon or even fast ones, such as Magby, beat faster checks and Choice Scarf users that otherwise wouldve won. Webs is also very easy to keep up. Thanks to Pumpkaboo's excellent bulk it can not be 2HKOed by a Knock Off from any of the common rapid spinners (lcuuftw pumpkaboo runs 25/16 physical bulk which just avoids the 2HKO) The use of Mankey also deters Defog, while Scarf Mankey doubles as a bird and Inkay check. Any good webs team is obviously going to be well prepared for Birds/Inkay, so their existence doesnt make webs any worse imo. While Natu is a pretty good check to Webs, by switching in the defensive set risks getting 2HKOed by Megahorn, while Life Orb variants straight up get OHKOed. Spinarak has the right offensive presence to lay down webs easily, and Sticky Web teams have very little trouble keeping them up. People have been theorymonning about Defog Taillow or Wingull, but that just shows that webs is causing subpar sets to arise, because neither Taillow nor Wingull really has an open slot for Defog. Swords Dance Riolu and rain offense are both good checks to Webs, with Riolu struggling to beat Pumpka but pushing past everything else and rain just winning at team preview. Webs creates a sort of matchup issue where you either build to beat webs, use webs, or build to beat another strategy like weather or birdspam; then you lose according to what you didnt build to beat. Despite having some ways to beat Webs in LC UU, I feel the tier would be much better without them.

 

[Shrug]

can i be on the council

i talk about this tier a lot and won all my battles

I will talk more later

 

[Joltage]

I know, I was primarily citing the usage stats to point out the lack of evidence we have to use as a basis for banning Sticky Web. LCPL might be a better indication of the meta, but there's no way there have been enough LCPL battles to explore all the options. Developing a meta takes time, and it's going to take more time when there are fewer people involved.

I don't think suspecting is necessarily bad, but I definitely hink they're bad if they lead to premature bans.

I see where you're coming from, but the meta isn't quite as infantile as you make it seem, it wouldn't even be included in LCPL if it was. LC UU has had plenty of matches outside of LCPL through room tours and test games with a fairly diverse group of people. And we don't just make up things to be suspected, webs have been brought up by enough people as a concern that they are making the meta unfun that we are deciding to look at them. As a niche meta with a small playerbase, we need to and are doing everything we can to make the meta as fun as possible for everyone so that we can grow and attract new players, so if prospective players are shying away from playing the tier they deem as unfun because webs are an overcentralizing force, then you're damned right we're going to suspect webs.

 

[Fiend]

Going to preface this with I'm really, really tired; please ignore typoes and poor grammer, I'll clean it up later maybe.

The thing about Natu is that it is not very hard to switch into; LC UU lost the 3 best switchins to Natu with the last tier shift so it is much more viable, however the likes of Slowpoke and Inkay greatly deter it using anything that is not U-turn. It also cannot switch in comfortably to Spinarak and as an antilead it hardly suffices again, due to a 50/50 on Feather Dance or U-turn/Psychic (depending on what the Webs scarf/fast pokemon of choice is). Natu also has an unfortunate typing that makes it really not appreciate at least 3 of Pokemon on the standard Webs team.

Personally I run a Pumpkaboo that outspeeds Anorith at -1 while taking 2 knock offs from Kabuto and Sandshrew without SR up, which allows me to outplay and double on them if I feel like it. Without SR, 18 attack Anorith only has a 11.3% chance to 2HKO 25/16 Pumpkaboo (my spread), which, of course, means Anorith loses. And this Pumpkaboo wins 1v1 vs Natu. Bergmite does generally become an issue for Pumpkaboo, though it will get burned and the fact that you're resorting to Bergmite shows how centralizing Sticky Web is for the tier.

Unless you are running Scarf Inkay, Inkay doesn't really affect Scarf Mankey Webs as it will either get one kill and die, or give the opposing side momentum. And Inkay can only come in once or twice on attacks meaning something either has to bite a bullet for Inkay to get in and do something. Copycat users don't really provide a check to Webs either, as Bird Spam webs become even deadlier as they are faster than everything now (and Natu fits here providing a bad switchin to Riolu) and if the Sticky Webber runs protect, you cause Copycat to fail. This leaves Defog Finneon or random Taunts/Magic Coats (typical users can be played around) to 'reliably' counter webs and they only work thanks to 50/50s that may or may not lead to Scald burns or relying on unknown and frankly barely viable pokemon, such as the likes of that Magic Coat Vanillite. However this only works if they are unwise to such a monster, and thus cannot be used for a meaningful argument.

Or I guess you can go with the argument that kept Baton Pass in LC: If you lead with a sweeper that can set up vs their typical lead, you just won. This is of course prediction reliant and can often be seen from miles away since said sweepers are obvious as hell. And most of them can be easily revenge killed.

If the Webs player plays fairly safe with their team and has built to beat have at least a check to all the answers to Webs (ie a basic good webs team), they really win in quite possibly 4/5 matchups minimal bar being severely outplayed or haxxed or possessing the name Melon.

 

[lcuuftw]

Unless Pumpkaboo runs 25/17 physical bulk, it can only avoid a 2HKO from Anorith if it gets extremely lucky. Even if it does run 25/17 physical bulk, there is a chance for a 2HKO that becomes a virtual certainty with Stealth Rock. Also, Adamant Anorith almost always 2HKO's max physical bulk Pumpkaboo:

236 Atk Anorith Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Large: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Anorith Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Large: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Anorith Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Large: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Anorith Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 244 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Large: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO

 

[Anthiese]

First of all, I just want to report that I just played a team with Skrelp and Houndour on the ladder, so it doesn't seem like they're properly banned right now.

As for the Sticky Web suspect: Has this tier really been explored enough for us to answer this question? There were 57 total ladder battles in July. I'm sure there are plenty of battles outside of the ladder, but unless people have been going crazy with LC UU outside the ladder, LC UU is far from a fully developed metagame. In my personal experience, I haven't even seen much Sticky Web at all. I've played 10+ LC UU ladder battles and I've seen one other Sticky Web team. (Full disclosure: I have used Sticky Web in all of those battles, although that's honestly 100% because Cubone is my favorite pokemon). It's hard for me to justify banning an entire playstyle on the basis of such little evidence.

With that said, I would be against any Sticky Web ban on a theoretical basis as well. I want to especially dispute the following point:

Anorith, despite appearing in only 8 combined ladder battles in the last two months, is a very reliable spinner. First of all, it can function as a nice anti-lead to Spinarak, OHKOing with 3 hits of Rock Blast (rarely OHKOs with 2). It takes little from Poison Jab and can survive Megahorn with Eviolite or with Berry Juice + some HP investment. Once Sticky Web is down, Anorith still hits 12 Speed, which allows it to outspeed Pumpkaboo and usually 2HKO with Knock Off:

156 Atk Anorith Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 84 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Large: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO

And Anorith is not the only option. There are actually several spinners in LC UU that can heavily damage Pumpkaboo on the switch in:

156 Atk Sandshrew Knock Off vs. 84 HP / 236 Def Pumpkaboo-Large: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Kabuto Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 84 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Large: 10-14 (43.4 - 60.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
204 Atk Bergmite Avalanche vs. 84 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Large: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

Unlike Anorith, Sandshrew and Kabuto do not outspeed after Sticky Web and thus cannot afford to stay in for the 2HKO, but both can remove Eviolite and put Pumpkaboo within kill range. Even Tentacool can hit semi-cripple Pumpkaboo with Knock Off and then hit fairly hard with Ice Beam.

As for Defog, I don't think Mankey in LC UU is nearly the counter to Defog that Pawniard is in LC OU. Unlike Pawniard, Mankey doesn't have the benefit of priority. It also doesn't have Pawniard's great defenses and typing and is OHKO'd by many of the Flying-type Defog users in LC UU. Some of these prospective Defoggers either outspeed (Doduo, Taillow, Wingull) or speed tie (Rufflet) with Mankey, meaning they can Defog as Mankey switches in and still OHKO before Mankey has the chance to do anything (as long as it isn't Scarfed of course).

Finally, Rapid Spin and Defog are not the only ways to beat Sticky Web. Taunt (Meowth, several others) can help. Magic Bounce Natu can be extremely hard for Sticky Web teams to play around. And then there are Pokemon (Inkay, Flying-types) and playstyles (Sand, Trick Room) that to some extent bypass or even benefit from the effects of Sticky Web.

tl;dr: There are tons of potential answers to Sticky Web. These options have not been sufficiently explored for Sticky Web to be banned at this time.

nitpicks.

- Berg is a terrible spinner with too many common weaknesses to be utilised properly.
- Also I doubt your calc holds some validity since you'd have to switchin and what Bergmite runs max attack? You would want to have EVs dedicated to bulk since you're going to be a bulky spinner. Also to get the damage you're talking about, Berg has to get hit first so this calc under these pretenses is useless.
- Doduo cant learn Defog
- Rufflet only ties IF Mankey is Adamant.
- Not mentioning Piplup, Finneon, or Ducklett as defoggers. They make excellent defensive defoggers but only the last one can reliabily deal with both setters without much trouble. the formers have issues with Sewaddle. Oh yeah Finneon outspeeds if +Spe nature.
- How does Sand benefit from Webs? Or bypass? I'm p sure that Sand Rush mons rely on outspeeding after Sand and losing that Stage might make it easier to revenge.
- Dont use ladder to convey the state of the meta. Most the meta is played in tours and LCPL and challs on the side.

 

[Camden]

So since I'm tier leader of LC, I thought it would be weird to run both tiers, so Jac is the new tier leader of LC UU. Have fun buddy!

 

[Max Carvalho]

So many promotions

 

[Anthiese]

Ive already pinged council on more Webs discussion, i'd like to see some more opinions on how people really feel about it.

I personally am still on the fence about Webs. One one end, there's a lot of sweepers who can make their home in crushing unprepared teams such as Inkay, Cranidos, and Cubone. On the other end, Birds and Defoggers arent in short supply so Webs has to be actively put up and safeguarded.

But with options like Pumpkaboo and Mankey who together can block and punish the removal of webs respectively, how strong is Webs now? What can the meta do to respond to this?

Please give your opinion.

 

[Shrug]

Hi Jac im not on the council but i decided to share some... thoughts... as I've played lc uu in the past with reasonable effectiveness.

To look at webs you need to look at the metagame that frames it. Since a ban on the move Sticky Web is a ban on a peculiar playstyle, you need to look at how mons frequently seen on that playstyle (or used to counter it) benefit or are affected by the condition in question and their effectiveness in the general metagame. First, some comments on webs vis a vis lc uu: 1) theres a lot of mid-speed superpowered shit in lcuu - cranidos (though thats coming up to lc after i top the ladder) etc - which are mons whose "wheelhouses" usually come on webs teams; 2) webs are very easy to set (thing that blocks is natu and that isnt super good rn) and kind of easy to defend [in brackets bc this is less a parenthetical aside than a full-blown sub contention: there do exist spinners a lot of places, but the two main spinblockers - frill and pump - are very good both on webs and as spinblockers, so running one isnt crippling; defoggers are real but are punishable not only by the easy mankey but also by getting a free switchin to strongmons which feast because defog users are all slow save taillow which is weak and doesnt want defog, in fact taillow defog might be evidence of overcentrilization, but anyway webs arent hard to get and keep especially is you use evio spider which gives you multiple setup opps for webs] which means most web counterplay has to come with webs actively laid; 3) webs is kinda really good once it is up. The offensive nature of lc uu means having mons that hit harder and are faster than the opp's is a really solid win most of the time. This is partially a function of the nature of the meta, but imma get there

I decided the best way to look at how webs is different in lc uu is to compare it to an established metagame - lc. In that metagame, there exists (broadly) "in-meta" threats and "out-meta" threats. By that i mean, there are threats usually worked into teams as a typical goodmon idea w/ some semblance of balance through offensive or defensive synergy - these are "in-meta" and usually worked around in teambuilding. These mons balance each other out to form the "standard metagame" and as a band typically check most outside threats as well as having an interplay between them. by contrast, "off-meta" threats are usually very powerful but disadvantaged in some form mons that are in general checked by specific "in-meta" mons but are still v threatening if those mons fall. This is why off-meta threats usually manifest themselves as teamstyles - Ziggy offense, baton pass, etc - to give the needed support for the given off-meta threat to overwhelm its sole in-meta stopper; one does not slap Zigzagoon on a squad. I hold sticky webs is the same way - although most mons used on it are common, the way those teams approach breaking metagame cores is of a specific method (the slowing of mons thus removing checks) deliberately designed to throw the meta on its head. It causes tremors in the meta when a new viable off-meta style is introduced - the BP craze, the anit-sun brigade. Fuck ggggd was 7-0 in lc swiss with the same webs team by just clicking moves. But a strong and resilient base of in-meta mons adapts, which is why those styles are viable in certain contexts but not broken today.

Compare to lc uu. Because it's a submeta with a dead ladder (although cool players and a cute leader in QuoteCS ) no "metagame" w/ a true balance of in-meta mons has developed.If u think about it, in a situation w/o an in-meta that mostly checks "everything else" u have no idea to build a "standard team" that beats it all. So in this situ you are incentivized to commit all-out to a given style with a powerful-but-flawed mon / mons and go in to win with that squad. look at lcpl - i brought full tr and won, full magby shit and won, etc, webs were all over, sun, rain, full stall (approaching that off-meta level in lc, particularly lcuu), torchpass, all this shit to race past your opp and win. Look at my game with Joltage - a cool guy and a dude who i prolly played about equal to until 1 double i made - which entirely won the game for me. in an arms race the dude who has the capacity to eliminate the other first wins full-stop. Your all-out commitment means you have all your resources on a team dedicated to that style, but in lc, a lot of those resources go into mitigating the crippling weaknesses ultrastrong headhunting mons pack as a vital part of game design. in lc uu, theres no in-meta to assert those same effects, meaning you can overload your team with only a slight few concessions for those supposedly crippling weaknesses. this creates a volatile metagame typically centered around a single flashpoint of setup - basically, if u do this one thing, you win.

The question that remains is: how does webs differ from any other headhunting style present in the meta? I think the speed-lowering nature of webs is what makes it special. It actually trumps some other playstyles in theory equally dangerous bc of the speed element and can also commit some resources to defense, making it a dreadnought in a sea full of fast weak torpedos or smaller slowed-down ships. it's king (w/ possible exception of torchpass but thats a later thing) of the headhunters rn because of its soft check to them w/ the speed drop, meaning it gets noted more easily. I have a sneaking suspicion webs wont be broken when there is a general in- and out-metagame that can adapt to sticky webs. but we arent there rn, and having webs in the tier only makes it harder to create that balanced meta (both bc of its effect on possible balance teambuilding and the incentive system, i.e theres little reason to not go to webs or a similar thing while in need of a win in a tour). So id personally favor a ban w/ the expectation of a later retest after a "meta" forms - and to do this (the forming) i propose a strong incentive of some sort to get a decent-level lc uu ladder going to form a general base of threats. how that works idk.

 

[Anthiese]

Okay i'll say that i've been inactive for long enough. It's finally time to get this underway.


Coucil if you could fall in and lets make a decision once and for all? taggin:

QuoteCS
Omastar42
H&MBerkeley
metaphysical
Fiend
Joltage
kingmidas

and since Cheir has quit, i'll be giving his slot to Shrug welcome to council!

I dont really know if there's anything else to really discuss. So should this be banned or not?

 

[shiloh]

Sticky Web: Ban

 

[Joltage]

Sticky Web: No Ban

 

[Oma]

Sticky Web: Ban

 

[Camden]

Sticky Web: Ban

 

[kingmidas]

Sticky Web: Ban
I cannot realistically post this without explaining my rather "unpopular" view towards this. I believe sticky web can be reintroduced at a later date, and maybe be able to fit into the tier once the other problems the tier has (like doduo). For now goodbye spinarak the bae :(.

 

[Shrug]

sticky web: ban, citing the wall of text vide supra

 

[Berks]

Sticky Web: Ban
Shrug speaking in fucking Latin all the time: Abstain (please)