LC Speed Tiers

[Ssin]

Hi, I felt like a new speed tiers list would be something I could use, so I made it and got approval, blarajan loves me now ^^, so I guess it s public now:

38
+2 max+ Buizel

36
+2 max+ Anorith / Deerling
+2 max Buizel

34
+2 max+ Drifloon / Surskit
+2 max Anorith / Deerling

32
+2 max+ Kabuto / Tangela
+2 max Drifloon / Surskit

30
+1 max+ Yanma
+2 max Cranidos / Dwebble / Horsea / Kabuto / Tangela / Venipede
+2 max+ Binacle / Dratini / Mantyke / Swirlix

28
+1 max+ Misdreavus / Murkrow
+1 max Yanma
+2 max Binacle / Dratini / Mantyke / Swirlix
+2 max+ Bellsprout / Cherubi / Exeggcute / Golett / Omanyte / Shellder

27
+1 max Misdreavus / Murkrow

26
+2 max Bellsprout / Cherubi / Exeggcute / Golett / Omanyte / Shellder
+2 max+ Aron / Clamperl / Oddish / Petilil / Rhyhorn

25
+1 max+ Archen / Carvanha / Chinchou / Cyndaquil / Froakie / Mankey / Mienfoo / Sandile / Vulpix

24
+1 max+ Axew / Cranidos / Larvesta
+2 max+ Tirtouga
+2 max Aron / Clamperl / Oddish / Petilil / Rhyhorn

22
+1 max Axew / Cranidos / Larvesta
+1 max+ Amaura / Bagon / Darumaka / Dratini / Helioptile / Inkay / Magnemite / Scraggy
+2 max Tirtouga

21
+1 max Amaura / Bagon / Darumaka / Dratini / Helioptile / Inkay / Magnemite / Scraggy
+1 max+ Larvitar / Machop / Shellder / Snover

20
max+ Diglett / Elekid / Voltorb / Yanma

19
max+ Abra / Aipom / Buneary / Buizel / Glameow / Gligar / Magby / Meowth / Misdreavus / Murkrow / Poliwag / Ponyta / Staryu / Taillow

18
max+ Anorith / Blitzle / Deerling / Doduo / Gastly / Minccino / Stunky

17
max+ Anorith / Carvanha / Chinchou / Cottonee / Doduo / Drifloon / Drilbur / Espurr / Froakie / Gastly / Helioptile / Houndour / Joltik / Litleo / Mienfoo / Mankey / Onix / Smoochum / Surskit / Vulpix

16
max+ Axew / Bunnelby / Chimchar / Cranidos / Dwebble / Eevee / Fennekin / Fletchling / Horsea / Kabuto / Meditite / Noibat / Pawniard / Pumpkaboo (Small) / Spoink / Tangela / Vullaby

15
max+ Amaura / Bagon / Binacle / Clauncher / Darumaka / Dratini / Helioptile / Inkay / Magnemite / Mantyke / Pancham / Pumpkaboo / Pumpkaboo (Large) / Scraggy / Skiddo / Swinub / Swirlix / Tepig / Tyrunt

14
max+ Cacnea / Cherubi / Chespin / Corphish / Flabébé / Frillish / Gible / Golett / Goomy / Larvitar / Machop / Omanyte / Phantump / Porygon / Pumpkaboo (Super) / Scatterbug / Shellder / Snover / Teddiursa / Timburr

13
max+ Aron / Bergmite / Clamperl / Klink / Oddish / Paras / Petilil / Rhyhorn / Skrelp / Spritzee

12
max+ Foongus / Honedge / Litwick / Slowpoke / Solosis / Tirtouga / Wooper

11
max+ Ferroseed / Munchlax / Trapinch


If you notice anything wrong, or notice any poke I missed, please notify me, cuz I'm only human :p

 

[dcae]

Cool list, your 19+ max got merged with your 20+ list. Just pointing that out.

 

[Ssin]

Cool list, your 19+ max got merged with your 20+ list. Just pointing that out.

fixed, thank you

 

[Goddess Briyella]

20
max+ Diglett / Voltorb / Elekid / Yanma

So many people forget about this rare 20 Speed tier... a lot of people consider 19 to be the "coveted" Speed stat.

Brilliant!!!! This is going to be useful for a lot of players.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

So many people forget about this rare 20 Speed tier... a lot of people consider 19 to be the "coveted" Speed stat.

Brilliant!!!! This is going to be useful for a lot of players.

A lot of people forget about 20 because, let's be honest here, the 20 Speed mons in gen 5 weren't the best. Even now, with Yanma having Speed Boost, 20 speed isn't that relevant to the metagame. It is something players should know however so they aren't caught off guard when Elekid, Voltorb, or Diglett outspeeds them.

 

[sparktrain]

+2 max+ Swirlix and +2 max Swirlix deserve a mention in 30 and 28 (Unburden) since Drifloon is on there.

Thanks so much for posting this! Very useful.

 

[Ssin]

+2 max+ Swirlix and +2 max Swirlix deserve a mention in 30 and 28 (Unburden) since Drifloon is on there.

Thanks so much for posting this! Very useful.

thank you, fixed

 

[Sergetank]

Amigo, Shellder's chur avatar. He's not on here yet though...! But dang if this list hasn't been handy, since lots of people use max speed+ nature for a lot of their mons, I usually keep it open to see if I'll hit first against the opponent. Thanks again for making this Ssin!

 

[Ssin]

Amigo, Shellder's chur avatar. He's not on here yet though...! But dang if this list hasn't been handy, since lots of people use max speed+ nature for a lot of their mons, I usually keep it open to see if I'll hit first against the opponent. Thanks again for making this Ssin!

Dear God, how could I ;-;

 

[blarajan]

i sticky'd this threead, until we make a huge xy article. at that time, this and apt-get's threat list will be included with huge credit given to him and ssin. thanks for this, please try updating it further / making it more complete if you can!

 

[Ssin]

I will rework this next saturday to include more pokes/remove not important pokes

 

[Lolk]

Great Job! Ssin could you possibly keep the speed tiers in alphabetical order? You got it good for the most part, and it would be much easier to read that way.

 

[Ssin]

Great Job! Ssin could you possibly keep the speed tiers in alphabetical order? You got it good for the most part, and it would be much easier to read that way.

I'll unleash my inner autist for that later, im currently reworking the whole thread

 

[Ssin]

completely reworked after some tips from electrolyte ^^

 

[blarajan]

this is pretty gorgeous

 

[Ray Jay]

One thing that's important to note in LC is that different base stats have different numbers of EVs they need to max said stats, and our Speed Tiers from last gen listed this. I think it's important as it determines where you can get other stat points through EVs as well (ie, Pokemon who max at 252 have an inherent disadvantage when compared to Pokemon that max at 196).

The problem arises in that some Pokemon have slightly different base stats, and thus need a different number of EVs by 20 or 70 or so in order to reach that same stat.

I would be willing to put some work with you on this, but I don't want to just contribute to your project if you don't want my help. Basically, what it'd look like is this:

19
max+ Abra (196) / Aipom (236) / Buneary (236) / Buizel (236) / Glameow (236) / Gligar (236) / Magby (252) / Meowth (196) / Misdreavus (236) / Murkrow (188) / Poliwag (196) / Ponyta (196) / Staryu (236) / Taillow (236)

Maybe you don't find that to your liking, so you instead think each base stat that hits the actual stat should be listed under the actual stat:

19
Max + base 83 (252 EVs needed): Magby
Max + base 85 (236 EVs needed): Aipom, Buneary, Buizel, Glameow, Gligar, Misdreavus, Staryu, Taillow
Max + base 90 (196 EVs needed): Abra, Meowth, Poliwag, Ponyta
Max + base 91 (188 EVs needed): Murkrow

Or maybe you don't want this tidbit of information included at all! Just my two cents, let me know if you'd like my help.

 

[snowcrow]

thank you for the work you put in to this

 

[Electrolyte]

Hey Ssin, this is an awesome list that you have here! Thanks for all of the work you've put in!

However, as I told you before, there are certainly ways to improve this list. While Ray Jay's suggestion is a valid one that you or someone should eventually tackle, there are other things you can do as well. I looked through the list and here are some things you should probably add / remove:

(possibly) ADD 40 Spe +2 Max+ Yanma.

ADD 38 Spe +2 Max Yanma.
ADD 27 Spe +1 Max Yanma, not 28. Stats round down.
ADD 19 Spe +0 Max Yanma.
(Modest Yanma is pretty legit and I personally prefer it over Timid)

I don't think you should list +2 Spe stats of Pokemon that only carry +1 boosting moves. This means you should remove all +2 Dratini, as you it's not only uncommon but also relatively easy to prevent from reaching +2 because it needs to setup twice unlike the other listed +2 Spe Pokemon.

Remove mentions of Mankey, Cherubi, Eevee, Larvitar, Spoink, Glameow, and Scatterbug. None of them are viable at all in LC and are so rare that their speeds don't matter.

Remove the 11 speed tier completely. Ferroseed and Munchlax never run any speed investment, and Trapinch is unviable in LC.

The 12 Speed tier can be largely removed as well. Foongus and Slowpoke never run max+ speed, and Litwick, Solosis, and Wooper are way too rare to matter. Honedge / Tirtouga you might want to keep but they're better off with + offensive natures, since they're not outspeeding anything relevant with max+ spe anyway...

I don't have the time to check your math but keep in mind that boosted speed stats always round down. I noticed your mistake with max Yanma, which should be at 27 spe (19 x 1.5 = 27.5 which rounds to 27)
The combination of Giga Drain or Solar Beam, a sun-boosted Hidden Power Fire, and Ancient Power, is walled by absolutely no typing available.
Math error on my part (thanks RayJay)

I must emphasize again on how awesome this list is. Very nicely done, Ssin! Keep up the good work :)

 

[Ray Jay]

I lol so hard at this list. If you're looking for a reformatted version of ssin's data with a few extra inclusions and reasoning for including things that Electrolyte just questioned, please go here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-speed-tiers-gp-2-2.3494369/

 

[Ssin]

Hey Ssin, this is an awesome list that you have here! Thanks for all of the work you've put in!

However, as I told you before, there are certainly ways to improve this list. While Ray Jay's suggestion is a valid one that you or someone should eventually tackle, there are other things you can do as well. I looked through the list and here are some things you should probably add / remove:

(possibly) ADD 40 Spe +2 Max+ Yanma.

ADD 38 Spe +2 Max Yanma.
ADD 27 Spe +1 Max Yanma, not 28. Stats round down.
ADD 19 Spe +0 Max Yanma.
(Modest Yanma is pretty legit and I personally prefer it over Timid)

I don't think you should list +2 Spe stats of Pokemon that only carry +1 boosting moves. This means you should remove all +2 Dratini, as you it's not only uncommon but also relatively easy to prevent from reaching +2 because it needs to setup twice unlike the other listed +2 Spe Pokemon.

Remove mentions of Mankey, Cherubi, Eevee, Larvitar, Spoink, Glameow, and Scatterbug. None of them are viable at all in LC and are so rare that their speeds don't matter.

Remove the 11 speed tier completely. Ferroseed and Munchlax never run any speed investment, and Trapinch is unviable in LC.

The 12 Speed tier can be largely removed as well. Foongus and Slowpoke never run max+ speed, and Litwick, Solosis, and Wooper are way too rare to matter. Honedge / Tirtouga you might want to keep but they're better off with + offensive natures, since they're not outspeeding anything relevant with max+ spe anyway...

I don't have the time to check your math but keep in mind that boosted speed stats always round down. I noticed your mistake with max Yanma, which should be at 27 spe (19 x 1.5 = 27.5 which rounds to 27)

I lol so hard at this list. If you're looking for a reformatted version of ssin's data with a few extra inclusions and reasoning for including things that Electrolyte just questioned, please go here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-speed-tiers-gp-2-2.3494369/

I must emphasize again on how awesome this list is. Very nicely done, Ssin! Keep up the good work :)

what he said

 

[Sunkern]

I don't see me on there