Discussion time!
So I've always liked Heracross, but no matter which gen, I've always had trouble fitting it in to teams or building teams around it. I'd like to use it in a GSC team, however, so I've been thinking about the stipulations that make Heracross useful to a team. What follows is a bunch of possibly irrelevant data and perhaps some off-base theory that could give me hints as to how to build a team with him. Some people who actually know what they're doing probably already know what Heracross is all about, but as I value the opinion of other users, I present this wall of crap for discussion.
First off, why would you want to use Heracross? The obvious answer is its main asset, STABed Megahorn. Let's start the thought process with its damage vs Pokemon in the OU tier:
Pokemon - Damage - Damage after Reflect
So, what in OU actually switches in and poses a threat to Heracross? First, let's assume that anything that gets 3HKO'd generally doesn't switch in. That leaves 11 Pokemon in the running.
There are 3 Pokemon that take four Megahorns after Leftovers recovery (Cloyster, Rhydon, and Misdreavus), and 8 Pokemon which resist it to the extent to make the damage negligible. Those first 3 are 3HKO'd with Spikes down and generally don't hurt Heracross enough to matter before it is outgunned, outside of Cloyster's Explosion, so let's omit them.
Of the aforementioned 8 Pokemon, one (Gengar), can be dealt with through Pursuit (or Earthquake, if that's actually viable).
Of the remaining 7, three of them (Forretress, Nidoking, Steelix) will generally lose, eventually, to Seismic Toss or be forced to switch or Explode, while inducing minimal damage to Heracross before that point (Nidoking could be carrying Fire Blast, but for the sake of argument, we'll say that it doesn't or that it's generally not expected to).
2 of the remaining four Pokemon (Heracross and Machamp) are negligible matchups. Heracross vs itself is self-explanitory, and while Heracross is a Machamp counter, it must use Curse to stall out the Curse Machamp set. Essenttially these are stalemate matchups. No one wants those unless necessary. Omitted.
That leaves Zapdos and Skarmory, which both take minimal damage from Heracross and threaten to do the most damage to Heracross of anything that would switch in to take damage from it in an ideal scenario. While Heracross has a number of ways to be threatened in the flow of battle, these two are the highest priority threats, thus I believe focusing on them will help contribute to my theory that Heracross's role is to initiate momentum.
If the stuff I've said above is of any indication, it is that:
What that means is that, even if some Pokemon like Miltank can switch in and Growl/Milk Drink, it is quickly being forced to use a passive move in order to deal with Heracross, making it generally more ideal for another offensive Pokemon to switch in. Few Pokemon after can damage it with common sets without non-drawback moves to where, even if they resist Megahorn, Seismic Toss wears them down and makes it harder for them to deal with shared counters. This would make it seem especially important against Zapdos and Skarmory, where forcing them to Rest and predicting it makes it tough for the opposition to deal with an offense you're setting up. Just imagine the usual scenario where a player predicts a Skarmory Rest and sends Zapdos out on that turn. Later on, when it's safe for DrumLax to come out, and Skarmory (in this scenario, the only Lax counter) still has two more turns on its sleep counter. Such a play can be attempted without Heracross, obviously, but if my logic is sound, then Zapdos and Skarmory are the only two Pokemon you'd have to lure in and create pressure for. Since few things want to take its Megahorn, Seismic Tosses can be used to create this pressure with very little in missed opportunities for damage (Read as: Exeggutor is too scared to predict a SToss and use Psychic, and eventually Suicune is going to want to stop switching in to Roar you, so the likelihood of catching Skarmory with Toss goes up).
Now the problem is...what does Heracross switch in on? Just for perspective (and because I like lists):
If we take the first list and narrow it down based on how common certain moves are, the intent to actually be advantageous in your switch, and how often you'll actually predict a Eggy Giga Drain to get Heracross in:
tl;dr
Heracross can make it hard for the opponent to switch in and gives you some momentum, but has a similar problem itself without the right switch-ins. This, combined with it's particular role as a lure for Zapdos and Skarmory could potentially create room for a devastating offense.
Maybe I'll add more about team building ideas when my brain isn't fried. I don't really have any besides pairing it with Drumlax and/or a Pursuit user, though. I also didn't mention stuff about movesets, though I believe SToss should almost always be included.
Discuss.
So I've always liked Heracross, but no matter which gen, I've always had trouble fitting it in to teams or building teams around it. I'd like to use it in a GSC team, however, so I've been thinking about the stipulations that make Heracross useful to a team. What follows is a bunch of possibly irrelevant data and perhaps some off-base theory that could give me hints as to how to build a team with him. Some people who actually know what they're doing probably already know what Heracross is all about, but as I value the opinion of other users, I present this wall of crap for discussion.
First off, why would you want to use Heracross? The obvious answer is its main asset, STABed Megahorn. Let's start the thought process with its damage vs Pokemon in the OU tier:
Pokemon - Damage - Damage after Reflect
* All are OHKOs except for Umbreon which is a 2HKO. With Reflect, Eggy/Starmie are 2HKOs (with high damage roll) and Tyranitar/Umbreon are 3HKOs.Super Effective said:
*All are 3HKOs except for Cloyster and Rhydon (Leftovers recovery factors in). These turn into 3HKOs with Spikes damage factored in. With Reflect, only Jolteon is a 4HKO (with leftovers). Spikes turns it into a 3HKO.Neutral said:
The point of all that was to emphasize the kind of damage Heracross is doing with one move. Calculating for Reflect was probably pointless, but it makes me feel better. Essentially, Heracross is gunning down most Pokemon in 1-3 hits, after omitting stuff like Recovery moves from Miltank. While that omission neglects some significant points in an actual battle, the main point is how this damage spread helps control momentum, which I'll touch on later.Not Very Effective (Reflect Omitted) said:
So, what in OU actually switches in and poses a threat to Heracross? First, let's assume that anything that gets 3HKO'd generally doesn't switch in. That leaves 11 Pokemon in the running.
There are 3 Pokemon that take four Megahorns after Leftovers recovery (Cloyster, Rhydon, and Misdreavus), and 8 Pokemon which resist it to the extent to make the damage negligible. Those first 3 are 3HKO'd with Spikes down and generally don't hurt Heracross enough to matter before it is outgunned, outside of Cloyster's Explosion, so let's omit them.
Of the aforementioned 8 Pokemon, one (Gengar), can be dealt with through Pursuit (or Earthquake, if that's actually viable).
Of the remaining 7, three of them (Forretress, Nidoking, Steelix) will generally lose, eventually, to Seismic Toss or be forced to switch or Explode, while inducing minimal damage to Heracross before that point (Nidoking could be carrying Fire Blast, but for the sake of argument, we'll say that it doesn't or that it's generally not expected to).
2 of the remaining four Pokemon (Heracross and Machamp) are negligible matchups. Heracross vs itself is self-explanitory, and while Heracross is a Machamp counter, it must use Curse to stall out the Curse Machamp set. Essenttially these are stalemate matchups. No one wants those unless necessary. Omitted.
That leaves Zapdos and Skarmory, which both take minimal damage from Heracross and threaten to do the most damage to Heracross of anything that would switch in to take damage from it in an ideal scenario. While Heracross has a number of ways to be threatened in the flow of battle, these two are the highest priority threats, thus I believe focusing on them will help contribute to my theory that Heracross's role is to initiate momentum.
If the stuff I've said above is of any indication, it is that:
- Heracross hits a lot of things Super Effective or neutral for scary amounts of damage with one move.
- Of the Pokemon that counter Heracross/resist its moves, few of them pose to damage Heracross itself for significant damage without sacrificing itself, or in the case of Gengar/Misdreavus, can be dealt with via Pursuit user
- Zapdos and Skarmory are the most threatening Heracross counters in the OU tier, as they do not have to deal with the issues mentioned in the previous bullet.
What that means is that, even if some Pokemon like Miltank can switch in and Growl/Milk Drink, it is quickly being forced to use a passive move in order to deal with Heracross, making it generally more ideal for another offensive Pokemon to switch in. Few Pokemon after can damage it with common sets without non-drawback moves to where, even if they resist Megahorn, Seismic Toss wears them down and makes it harder for them to deal with shared counters. This would make it seem especially important against Zapdos and Skarmory, where forcing them to Rest and predicting it makes it tough for the opposition to deal with an offense you're setting up. Just imagine the usual scenario where a player predicts a Skarmory Rest and sends Zapdos out on that turn. Later on, when it's safe for DrumLax to come out, and Skarmory (in this scenario, the only Lax counter) still has two more turns on its sleep counter. Such a play can be attempted without Heracross, obviously, but if my logic is sound, then Zapdos and Skarmory are the only two Pokemon you'd have to lure in and create pressure for. Since few things want to take its Megahorn, Seismic Tosses can be used to create this pressure with very little in missed opportunities for damage (Read as: Exeggutor is too scared to predict a SToss and use Psychic, and eventually Suicune is going to want to stop switching in to Roar you, so the likelihood of catching Skarmory with Toss goes up).
Now the problem is...what does Heracross switch in on? Just for perspective (and because I like lists):
Heracross Takes Minimal Damage From Most Common Moves said:
Heracross Takes Moderate Damage From Most Common Moves said:
Heracross Gets Wrecked And/Or Probably Shouldn't Be Switching In Without A Good Reason/Prediction said:
If we take the first list and narrow it down based on how common certain moves are, the intent to actually be advantageous in your switch, and how often you'll actually predict a Eggy Giga Drain to get Heracross in:
Technically vs Machamp is still in Hera's favor, but we're looking to gain momentum, not initiate potential stalemates. Aaaaaand one more list to account for the unlikelihood of certain Pokemon being on the same team:
Assuming a team had these four Pokemon, that'd be an impressive matchup for Hera, if theory holds true, but overall, we're looking at relatively few switch-ins where Heracross it at its safest. Everything else does damage at least somewhere in the 30ish%, which, in that range, isn't too bad, but with Spikes, generally puts it in the situation it was trying to induce. That's something I can't say anything definite on as it looks much different on paper than it does in practice. Plus, I have no real conclusion as to what this means, save that I'm probably the only person who finds taking 33% before leftovers particularly troubling. Also, I'm missing out on stuff like the fact that some Pokemon could boost up before Heracross switches in, making them even more troublesome.
tl;dr
Heracross can make it hard for the opponent to switch in and gives you some momentum, but has a similar problem itself without the right switch-ins. This, combined with it's particular role as a lure for Zapdos and Skarmory could potentially create room for a devastating offense.
Maybe I'll add more about team building ideas when my brain isn't fried. I don't really have any besides pairing it with Drumlax and/or a Pursuit user, though. I also didn't mention stuff about movesets, though I believe SToss should almost always be included.
Discuss.
