ss234
bop.
Approved by molk and oglemi.
Hi. So as many of you know, some people would like to see a suspect test on hail. Seeing as hail discussion in the np thread turned into a flamewar rather quickly then stopped, I thought it would be a good idea to have a dedicated thread for hail and its impact on the metagame. In this thread, supporters of hail suspect should be trying to convince the opposite side that hail is a suspect, and vice versa. Remember to stay on topic i.e. don't start talking about moltres being broken. This is a thread discussing hail as a potential suspect, and nothing else. If your post is not relevant it will be deleted.
Why I think hail should be a suspect:
1)Walrein-this mon is pretty damn ridiculous. If it gets a sub up, you lose a mon, unless you have something like klinklang or cinncino which, guess what, are rlly ez to wall. It can be insanely bulky both physically and specially-of course, while it can't do both at the same time, this means that sometimes your pokes won't be able to stop rein getting up a sub and your pokes will stop rein getting up a sub, and you don't know before it is too late. Here are some calcs for reference:
2) Residual damage-I don't think that this is broken on it's own, but it is certainly a pain to deal with, especially combined with entry hazards. Obviously, it stops leftovers recovery, making pokemon such as lanturn and slowking so much easier to wear down. Pokemon without lefties, ofc, lose 6.25% of their HP each turn, which certainly adds up over time-for example, protect snover can easily strip 50% off of an entei / emboar if it's carrying protect, with 25% of that damage being down to hail over 4 turns. This isn't game breaking on its own, but it does make some pokemon just a bit more powerful, and it means your hail checks have to deal with losing 6.25% every turn, or get nothing if holding leftovers.
3) Offensive ice types-glaceon and rotom-f are the main pokemon here. Specs glaceon is insanely hard to switch into-the only pokemon that can switch into it with a moveset of blizzard / HP fire / shadow ball and win is HP fire cryogonal and specially defensive magneton. Lanturn looks like a decent check, but is 3HKO'd after sr iirc and can't do anything back(scald does around 30% I think). Rotom-f is in a similar boat, in that it has incredibly few counters with it's subsplit set. Again, HP fire cryogonal and magneton are basically the only answers. Scarf sets of both of these are also good, and while they do have far more counters, both are deadly against more offensive teams-glaceon is still very strong thanks to 130 special attack, and rotom-f has STAB thunderbolt to beat some common hail checks such as kabutops and moltres.
Remember, this thread doesn't mean hail is getting suspected at all, this thread is merely to explore the possibility of suspecting it, and if we as a community do decide its worth a test, how we should go about it.
Now, I've given my point of view across and I'd like to here yours. Do you think hail is worthy of a suspect or not? Please share your opinions on hail and its impact on the metagame :)
lgi
Art by CyzirVisheen.
Art by CyzirVisheen.
Hi. So as many of you know, some people would like to see a suspect test on hail. Seeing as hail discussion in the np thread turned into a flamewar rather quickly then stopped, I thought it would be a good idea to have a dedicated thread for hail and its impact on the metagame. In this thread, supporters of hail suspect should be trying to convince the opposite side that hail is a suspect, and vice versa. Remember to stay on topic i.e. don't start talking about moltres being broken. This is a thread discussing hail as a potential suspect, and nothing else. If your post is not relevant it will be deleted.
Why I think hail should be a suspect:
1)Walrein-this mon is pretty damn ridiculous. If it gets a sub up, you lose a mon, unless you have something like klinklang or cinncino which, guess what, are rlly ez to wall. It can be insanely bulky both physically and specially-of course, while it can't do both at the same time, this means that sometimes your pokes won't be able to stop rein getting up a sub and your pokes will stop rein getting up a sub, and you don't know before it is too late. Here are some calcs for reference:
252 SpA Life Orb Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 226-268 (53.3 - 63.2%) -- 78.52% chance to 2HKO after weather
252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 220-261 (51.88 - 61.55%) -- 59.77% chance to 2HKO after weather
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 322-382 (75.94 - 90.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 152-182 (35.84 - 42.92%) -- 3.59% chance to 3HKO after weather
252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 218-260 (51.41 - 61.32%) -- 51.56% chance to 2HKO after weather
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 372-440 (87.73 - 103.77%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Rotom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 252-299 (59.43 - 70.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 254-300 (59.9 - 70.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 330-393 (77.83 - 92.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
252+ Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 324-384 (76.41 - 90.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 255-301 (60.14 - 70.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 283-338 (66.74 - 79.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Moltres Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 220-261 (51.88 - 61.55%) -- 59.77% chance to 2HKO after weather
252 SpA Life Orb Galvantula Thunder vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 322-382 (75.94 - 90.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
252 SpA Manectric Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 152-182 (35.84 - 42.92%) -- 3.59% chance to 3HKO after weather
252 SpA Life Orb Lilligant Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 218-260 (51.41 - 61.32%) -- 51.56% chance to 2HKO after weather
252+ SpA Choice Specs Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 372-440 (87.73 - 103.77%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Rotom Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Walrein: 252-299 (59.43 - 70.51%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 254-300 (59.9 - 70.75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 330-393 (77.83 - 92.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
252+ Atk Gallade Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 324-384 (76.41 - 90.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 255-301 (60.14 - 70.99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
252 Atk Life Orb Electivire Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Walrein: 283-338 (66.74 - 79.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
2) Residual damage-I don't think that this is broken on it's own, but it is certainly a pain to deal with, especially combined with entry hazards. Obviously, it stops leftovers recovery, making pokemon such as lanturn and slowking so much easier to wear down. Pokemon without lefties, ofc, lose 6.25% of their HP each turn, which certainly adds up over time-for example, protect snover can easily strip 50% off of an entei / emboar if it's carrying protect, with 25% of that damage being down to hail over 4 turns. This isn't game breaking on its own, but it does make some pokemon just a bit more powerful, and it means your hail checks have to deal with losing 6.25% every turn, or get nothing if holding leftovers.
3) Offensive ice types-glaceon and rotom-f are the main pokemon here. Specs glaceon is insanely hard to switch into-the only pokemon that can switch into it with a moveset of blizzard / HP fire / shadow ball and win is HP fire cryogonal and specially defensive magneton. Lanturn looks like a decent check, but is 3HKO'd after sr iirc and can't do anything back(scald does around 30% I think). Rotom-f is in a similar boat, in that it has incredibly few counters with it's subsplit set. Again, HP fire cryogonal and magneton are basically the only answers. Scarf sets of both of these are also good, and while they do have far more counters, both are deadly against more offensive teams-glaceon is still very strong thanks to 130 special attack, and rotom-f has STAB thunderbolt to beat some common hail checks such as kabutops and moltres.
Remember, this thread doesn't mean hail is getting suspected at all, this thread is merely to explore the possibility of suspecting it, and if we as a community do decide its worth a test, how we should go about it.
Now, I've given my point of view across and I'd like to here yours. Do you think hail is worthy of a suspect or not? Please share your opinions on hail and its impact on the metagame :)