Gen 2 GSC OU Viability Ranking Thread V2

Status
Not open for further replies.

Texas Cloverleaf

This user has a custom title
is a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
iirc the Drag set that got popular recently on stall was Body Slam/Haze/Reflect/Rest or something along those lines which is a total bitch for certain offensive teams to deal with.

great list, most people will probably think you overranked porygon2 so you may want to give a bit of explanation on that one
 

Mr.E

unban me from Discord
is a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
Even I kinda think that, totally the most "murky" of my choices, but I don't really think P2 belongs any lower either. Actually, I swapped it and Heracross at the last moment before I hit post because I dunno man. I really like it though, even if it doesn't see much use. If Suicune can be A-rank based solely on being an annoying douchebag who never dies, if I'm gonna let Umbreon/Meganium/Venusaur hang out above C, I kinda figure Porygon2 has to be in between somewhere since it's of a similar mold. It's the kind of mon that you can just sorta switch into almost everything if you need it to, being bulkier than Zapdos with NO WEAK [Machamp weak] and Recover. Good at speading PAR since its Double-Edge and choice of Ice Beam or TBolt are just strong enough to discourage all the most common Sleep Talkers from switching in to tank status ad nauseam, plus it's also a competent Curse user.

P2 is super well-rounded. It doesn't have the raw offensive power to apply serious pressure on the opponent like Raikou and Zapdos, but it's not incompetent to the level of U/M/V. I think that pegs it as closer to Suicune, who actually provides even less offense but at least does enough to chip away at the frail offensive threats it's best designed to handle (Nidoking, TTar, Marowak, to a lesser extent Machamp). I'm not sure Suicune is even better, but Suicune eats status and defensively hard counters a decent chunk of the metagame in a way P2 doesn't.
 
I believe that dnite is a kind of middle of the pack mon but I think b+ is overrating it slightly I mean in total between last year's spl and this year Wcop the thing was used a total of seven times. I think the he is b- minus at it still doesn't really have the most solid win rate either. But I guess that this could be a shitty argument on where to place him but I would say he is a b- mon. He is good enough where he won't be complete deadweight in a match but I also don't think he is as good as other b+ mons but tbh it all comes down to opinions and prefrence between players but it varies from player to player.
 

Royal Flush

in brazil rain
is a Past WCoP Champion
Yeah it feels weird to see Nite on the same boat of stuff like Miltank/Forry/Missy, even Umby to some extent. I can give a lot of merit to the haze set, but I'd rank him down to B-.
Other than that, I heavily disagree with Cune being A+. He might be as passive as Skarm, but hey Skarm checks the best pokemon of the game.
 
i think ice beam or even sleep talk is better over slam, since you're not really killing anything.

regardless, i'm ok with gengar staying where it is. but everything else i proposed still makes perfect sense in my head. nidoking is simply better than machamp/marowak, who are both situational pokemon unless things have totally changed. being ko'd by toxic is definitely an issue in gsc.

skarmory definitely deserves its top tier a ranking. he's not a pokemon you want to run on your team persay, but there's absolutely no question skarmory has a higher metagame impact than everything else in the tier (bar maybe cloyster). suicune is similar, but less centralizing, and that's a- for me. please don't use 3 subrankings.

starmie belongs in whatever tier the shittier of the two spikers is (forretress).

and until heracross and dragonite starts putting up some god damn RESULTS instead of just being decent on paper, then they do not deserve to be in the rank as a tried and true gsc staple like miltank. i think miltank definitely sets the bar for b+ mons as it stands. i would not oppose umbreon and maybe even misdreavus being dropped to blissey territory also, although they don't fit the description of "reject ou mons" as they tend to serve rather important roles and performance consistently when used properly. it's just a much more niche role than the very splashable miltank.
 
Last edited:

Mr.E

unban me from Discord
is a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
At least Heracross does stuff on paper. It kills virtually everything except Zapdos and Skarm, maybe Gengar gets in the way of mono-Cursetalk but is limited in what it can do back. (Wins with the odd Perish Song, Fire Punch or Psychic, otherwise eventually loses.) The problem, of course, is that Zapdos and Skarm are really fucking common regardless. Machamp's predator, Starmie, is much less naturally occuring and nothing walls off Marowak straight up. Still, Heracross does have some nice defensive utility with its own Ground/Fighting resists. Machamp doesn't switch into much of anything very well besides TTar and Marowak is frail is balls because no Leftovers.

Dragonite I dunno what the hell it does besides sit in front of Snorlax and bore it to death, and I'm pretty sure other mons could do that job better if you're dedicated enough to the cause to render a Pokémon so hideously worthless at doing anything else. (That actually may not be true, because the rest of the Haze crowd is either naturally too frail or weak to Ground, but Misdreavus or Machamp probably still do the job better in their own manners.) It learns lots of stuff but nothing particularly unique, like Spikes or Heal Bell or even just a sleep move. It just has generically high stats and a good defensive typing.
 
i'm positive snorlax doesn't switch into dpunch dnite.

unless the only thing people do is run haze dragonite then yeah no shit it's not gonna get anything done.
 

Mr.E

unban me from Discord
is a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
Snorlax switching into Dragonite isn't a problem, it's Dragonite switching into Snorlax. At any rate, it's definitely an inferior mixed attacker to Tyranitar and Nidoking but I suppose that's why it should be clearly ranked lower. It's kinda like the Heracross of that mixed attacking trio, heh. It's plainly inferior at its primary role (mixed attacking in this case) but has some unusual defensive advantages that might make it occasionally worth using.

Lots of people seem to like their do-nothing mons too though.
 
you shouldnt need to switch dragonite into snorlax. in any case, when has not being able to switch into snorlax stopped any pokemon from being good at all? and i don't believe we're really arguing that dragonite is a great pokemon, we just seem to have varying definition of how to rate "niche" pokemon. i'm perfectly comfortable with classifying both dragonite and heracross as "ou but shouldn't be" tier.
 
Okay, there's something I think I need to clarify: Subranking syntax will not change. Simply put, everyone wants a different format that they prefer, so there will always be people unsatisfied with the current way things are going. Yes, you may not prefer the way the rankings are set up currently, but I highly doubt that you actually have a major problem with them, and that your argument is "what's in place right now isn't bad, but I think it can be done better this way". I'm going to keep discussion about rank definitions going though, since I'm not completely sold that the descriptions are in the same boat as the subranking syntax in that regard, and to be honest, since I ripped the definitions from an old gen 6 VR thread, they probably aren't the most accurate to this list, just more accurate than the ones I wrote up myself.

Rankings changes:

Suicune | Tyranitar A+ --> A-
Everyone seems to be in favor of a Suicune drop, and I have no comment on the matter. As for Tyranitar, it doesn't do its job consistently enough to warrant A+. Everything and its mother can chip it down to nothingness, which means it has a hard time switching into pretty much anything, even the Pokemon that it's supposed to beat. Gengar was also nominated to drop, but I finally decided to keep it in A+ since it's not supposed to switch into anything in the first place, and the sheer versatility it brings to the table is insane, being able to act as a sleeper, a boomer, a perish trapper, or a tailored offensive threat able to hit almost everything hard.

Machamp | Marowak | Starmie A- --> B+
These nominations were mainly brought up by Borat, and even though there wasn't much discussion about them, I see enough merit in them to implement them. Machamp and Marowak are in a very similar boat and should honestly be ranked together in the current metagame; both hit insanely hard, but are both frail and relatively slow, meaning the their trainer needs to go through hell and back to try and get them out on the field, and even then, the opponent could still have a decent switch-in to them, forcing them right back out. They are a massive threat if allowed to function, though. Starmie just sits there, removes spikes, and counters Machamp, while being massive, massive Snorlax bait. Simply put, it's very hard to fit on a team, since most teams that need/want a spinner run Cloyster or Forretress, since they also bring Spikes to the table, and give strong role compression, meaning that to run Starmie, you NEED a spinner, and you can't fit either of the spikers on your team. Otherwise, you're usually better off running Cloyster. Starmie still has some cool options, though, like Psychic to lure Gengar, T-Wave, and pseudo-passing.

Dragonite | Heracross B+ --> B-
Dragonite certainly has its merits, as has been described above, but it's pretty obvious that B+ is way too high for it. To be honest, I should have caught that from the beginning. As for Heracross, I've never used it, so I have no comment on the matter. I'll take Borat's word for it being good on paper but hard to pull off in practice, though, since I've seen that phenomenon myself in other generations that I am much more familiar with (read: OR/AS M-Absol).

Some things that have been brought up, but still need discussion before a ranking change:

Quagsire | Espeon | Porygon2 B- --> C+
Quagsire and Espeon were brought up by Borat but never got any debate. Porygon2 got some debate but there was no real conclusion as to whether it should drop or stay. I'm personally leaning towards staying, since I mainly agree with Mr. E on the subject.

Misdreavus | Umbreon B+ --> B-
Brought up by Borat but never got any debate. Borat' reasoning behind these nominations is mainly that while they perform their niches consistently and reliably, their niches are relatively small, and not exactly on par with the rest of B+.
 
i never formally brought up missy/umbreon for a good reason. while they're comparable to something like blissey, they're definitely better than your jolteon/quagsire/whatever's left. it all depends on where you draw the line, and what pokemon you set as the "bar" for that tier. any pokemon not unquestionably better than the "bar" in a lower tier needs a discussion. to me, the best pokemon in each tier are:

a+ - cloyster
a- - steelix
b+ - miltank
b- - blissey

e.g. steelix compares very favorably to gengar, but not so much to the other 3 (skarm is a special case as mentioned). in that sense, i'm arguing for steelix moving up as much as gengar moving down. maybe i'm delusional.

likewise, umbreon/missy in my head are in a similar scenario with blissey. but of course, having blissey in the same tier as miltank doesn't make any sense either, so there should only be a discussion of umb/mis going down rather than bliss going up.

espeon and quagsire should definitely go to c+. you could literally describe that whole section as super specific offensive threats with huge potential payoffs (3 drummers, exploders, swords dance). everything in that tier is meant to sweep and find a super niche hole in enemy teams. if for that reason alone and not on power they belong together. charizard simply isn't getting past starmie same way kanga's never getting past gengar same way espeon is never getting past ttar same way quag's never getting past skarm. it all makes sense to me. they're made for that tier. pgon2 is "somewhat" similar in that regard, although the twave set tends to work better in practice.

and heracross is definitely not difficult to use. he's a straight forward rest talker (either curse or st) who doesn't pose as much consistent threat as vap/zapdos/raikou. he freely walls major threats like nidoking, dragonite, machamp, gengar -- all the while not giving snorlax a free switch. i think in a heracross-heavier meta you can keep mixed sweepers more "honest" by forcing the occassional fb on nido, hp flying on dragonite, fp on gengar, etc. unfortunately, given all 3 are basically almost always running boltbeam is a telltale sign of how impactless heracross is.
 
Last edited:

Royal Flush

in brazil rain
is a Past WCoP Champion
About Dragonite and Heracross going down:

To be fair Heracross is a lot better in practice than Nite. Like Borat said, pretty straightforward restalker and he can switch-in somewhat easy against a portion of the meta (nido, gengar, lix, fbless ttar, machamp). His biggest selling point imo is being able to threat anything not named zapdos with basically two attacks, so you add the longevity of restalk and eureka, works like a charm.

Nite on the other hand needs the whole moveset to be a consistent threat so you can't just go banana and switch him recklessly because of the lack of recovery. Even passive stuff like Skarm's drill peck or ToxicCune can hurt him on the long run. And there's the x4 ice weakness which sucks a lot.

So in general, Hera is a safer pick if you wanna be cool and use stuff outside of the top picks. Funny thing each one is hard walled by one of the electrics. That said, I agree with both going B-: being on the same tier of Machamp/Marowak/Miltank doesn't feel right.

About Quagsire/Espeon/Porygon2:

Quag and Espy gotta go down. Quag looks super good by having a safe switch against electrics, but will fail to drumsweep more often than not. Espeon is just too frail to switch against anything not named Gengar and can't really hit phazers unless you run hp water lmao.
P2 is plain better than those two, in my opinion. Recover alone compensates the fact of it being a Snorlax jr, plus it's an amazing paralysis spreader, perhaps one of the best. Let the boy stay B.
 
I'm in favor of p2 staying while I am not the biggest fan of the curse set I have found the paralysis set to be generally consistent in what it's doing and it is definitely better then quagsire and espeon.
 

Mr.E

unban me from Discord
is a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
I mean, I ranked M&M lower than Nidoking in my list so I suppose I would have to argue in favor of Nidoking. I like them more, because they're more consistent offensive threats, but Nidoking is slightly less frail, combining Marowak's Electric immunity and Machamp's ability to carry Leftovers at a mid-tier speed, and covers sleep for your team. Nidoking is very versatile, sort of a lesser Gengar with different typing. Too bad Nidoking doesn't get Explosion.
 

Cased

Banned deucer.
I personally believe that SubSD Tentacruel is a better Pokemon than Venusaur right now, I know Venusaur has the unpredictability factor since it can run the Reflect/Leech set that Meganium does or run a Growth set with Leech or Sleep Powder with your choice of Hidden Power Fire or Ice. I've used both Venusaur sets a few times and while it's done alright, I don't think I'd say it's on the level of some of the Pokemon in its ranking. I know the Defensive set has an easier time with Machamp as opposed to Meganium but I just think that even though they have the same niche, that Meganium is just better at doing that job. Just my opinion though, I'm sure you have good reasoning so I'm curious if you think Venusaur is truly that good (Although due to no Synthesis, Sleep Powder/Reflect/Leech all on Venusaur is a true bitch to deal with so I could see the argument)

Muk in C+ kinda hurts the feels, if Explosion is so good like you said, Muk should definitely be moved up a tier in my opinion! There's only so many Pokemon who enjoy switching in, and the Sludge Bomb poison rate makes it a risk at all times, while punishing Steels and such with Fire Blast. Also Zard is always a threat to almost any team if set-up correctly, I think it deserves a higher tier but I wouldn't get upset if it stayed in C I guess
 
Last edited:

Jorgen

World's Strongest Fairy
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion
You could make a case for Machamp being on the same level as Nido due to the Lax matchup. Marowak is pretty inferior outside of a few niche scenarios though. No Leftovers? Tanked hardcore by Skarm and Cloy? Everyone runs that shit without a second thought. Nido and Champ, at the bare minimum, force teams to run "different" walls to account for them specifically.

If Zard doesn't move up, Muk def shouldn't.

Venu probably shouldn't be running Meganium's set. The Ground resist is the main reason to run Meganium in the first place, it more or less runs the set it does because its movepool is garbage and it has to use something lol. Growth all the way on Venu. With Sleep Powder ofc. Leech Seed is pretty lame.
 

M Dragon

The north wind
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Tournament Director Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Dedicated Tournament Host Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis the Smogon Tour Season 17 Championis a defending World Cup of Pokemon Championis a Past SPL Champion
World Defender
Yeah Wak could be lower, but Machamp is just a huge threat for most teams, and it beats lax. I wouldn't rank it B.
 

Mr.E

unban me from Discord
is a Two-Time Past SPL Champion
Skarmory doesn't wall Marowak, it's just the only thing that reliably avoids getting OHKOed with even a smidge of chip damage. Nothing walls Marowak, that's why it's so dangerous. Machamp is a step back offensively because it gets soft countered by numerous things and still has to deal with its shitty accuracy even where it's most threatening. Marowak would be wholly superior if it wasn't such a defensive liability. Even so, Machamp ain't much better since Marowak has more numerous safe switch-in opportunities. Machamp just takes Spikes damage better.

Else I would just say Heracross is the best of the trio because it's actually defensively competent.
 
Time to do something that should have been done a long time ago. Frankly, the reason it didn't happen earlier was half because I was hoping there would be discussion on it, and half procrastination. But without further ado...

Rankings changes:

Espeon | Quagsire B- --> C+
There's been nothing but approval of this, so seems right to bring it down. Feels right at any rate.

At this point, it looks like the upper rankings are more or less solid bar M Dragon's qualms about wak/champ, so I'm going to say we should be looking at the lower ranks, mainly C- and D. They haven't been looked at in a while, and some stuff might need to get kicked out while other things could be allowed in. I have no experience using any of these Pokemon, so I'll stay silent on the matter for now.
 
doesn't it make more sense to look at upper tiers because changes waterfall on down? making changes to lower tiers FIRST makes absolutely no sense. if we continue to move things down (which i have proposed), that naturally gives a power creep to all lower tiers. addressing low tiers directly without accurate upper tiers leads to wasted effort. you need to approach tiering linearly rather than via shotgun approach. clearly there are still disagreements on up. and it really is m dragon vs rest, and i don't think "Lol" is adequate justification. wak's already been bumped anyway, it's just machamp that's left.
 
Cntrl+F Lanturn not found.

Lanturn is a niche Electric that can switch into Waters easier than other Electrics due to its secondary Water type which is its biggest selling point because no Ground-type (wak, Steelix, Nido) will like to get Surfed in the face.

On the other side of things. Zapdos and Raikou exist. And Lanturn can't phaze which sucks. So definitely is not going higher than C. Pushing for C- or D
 
i don't think getting STAB is worth trading electric resistance. lanturn would be much better as a pure electric, but as it stands it has issues walling things electrics are suppose to wall (i.e. other electrics).

zapdos doesn't resist tbolt either, but it's zapdos. he trades that for ground immunity. lanturn has what? stab surf? confuse ray?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top