Lower Tiers GSC NU Viability Rankings

Earthworm · Sep 26, 2020

I'm making the change freezingpop87 suggested re: Dugtrio and Sudowoodo. Not adding Butterfree to the rankings though...

The OP has now been updated with the changes. The rank changelog is below:

Xatu (1 -> 1, +0)
Weezing (2 -> 2, +0)
Primeape (3 -> 3, +0)
Dewgong (4 -> 4, +0)
Pineco (10 -> 5, +5)
Chinchou (7 -> 6, +1)
Ninetales (14 -> 7, +7)
Kingler (13 -> 8, +5)
Hitmonlee (19 -> 9, +10)
Dugtrio (17 -> 10, +7)
Sudowoodo (6 -> 11, -5)
Rapidash (8 -> 12, -4)
Magnemite (20 -> 13, +7)
Octillery (9 -> 14, -5)
Stantler (15 -> 15, +0)
Wigglytuff (11 -> 16, -5)
Fearow (18 -> 17, +1)
Magmar (5 -> 18, -13)
Flareon (12 -> 19, -7)
Lickitung (16 -> 20, -4)
Azumarill (24 -> 21, +3)
Gloom (46 -> 22, +24)
Dunsparce (25 -> 23, +2)
Farfetch'd (37 -> 24, +13)
Arbok (35 -> 25, +10)
Porygon (42 -> 26, +16)
Shuckle (21 -> 27, -6)
Graveler (26 -> 28, -2)
Exeggcute (33 -> 29, +4)
Pupitar (66 -> 30, +36)
Sneasel (22 -> 31, -9)
Persian (28 -> 32, -4)
Pidgeot (27 -> 33, -6)
Ledian (36 -> 34, +2)
Raticate (49 -> 35, +14)
Houndour (31 -> 36, -5)
Dragonair (29 -> 37, -8)
Seaking (30 -> 38, -8)
Mantine (34 -> 39, -5)
Hitmonchan (39 -> 40, -1)
Gastly (23 -> 41, -18)
Corsola (40 -> 42, -2)
Cubone (43 -> 43, +0)
Slowpoke (45 -> 44, +1)
Poliwhirl (55 -> 45, +10)
Hitmontop (38 -> 46, -8)
Bayleef (47 -> 47, +0)
Machoke (50 -> 48, +2)
Parasect (51 -> 49, +2)
Flaaffy (56 -> 50, +6)
Magcargo (53 -> 51, +2)
Seadra (48 -> 52, -4)
Furret (62 -> 53, +9)
Elekid (58 -> 54, +4)
Delibird (32 -> 55, -23)
Sunflora (64 -> 56, +8)
Tangela (41 -> 57, -16)
Voltorb (65 -> 58, +7)
Drowzee (Unranked -> 59, NEW)
Ariados (54 -> 60, -6)
Venomoth (52 -> 61, -9)
Murkrow (44 -> 62, -18)
Tentacool (71 -> 63, +8)
Noctowl (59 -> 64, -5)
Staryu (57 -> 65, -8)
Snubbull (73 -> 66, +7)
Wartortle (63 -> 67, -4)
Rhyhorn (Unranked -> 68, NEW)
Beedrill (67 -> 69, -2)
Charmeleon (69 -> 70, -1)
Abra (61 -> 71, -10)
Croconaw (68 -> 72, -4)
Ivysaur (60 -> Unranked)
Aipom (70 -> Unranked)
Onix (72 -> Unranked)

Gamer1234556 · Sep 26, 2020

Dewgong being higher than Chinchou still feels very offputting for me. I just don't think it fits higher thank Chinchou with how splashable Rest-Talk Chinchou is at the moment. That said, I will admit that it does have some nice tricks like Toxic and Encore and synergizes very well with Xatu and Gloom.

Magnemite feels a bit high as well, I know its one of the few mons that has Thunder, but it also potentially invites Dugtrio into the field, the same way I take the issue of Dewgong giving Primeape a free switch-in.

dawnbuster · Sep 26, 2020

Gamer1234556 said:
Dewgong being higher than Chinchou still feels very offputting for me. I just don't think it fits higher thank Chinchou with how splashable Rest-Talk Chinchou is at the moment. That said, I will admit that it does have some nice tricks like Toxic and Encore and synergizes very well with Xatu and Gloom.

Magnemite feels a bit high as well, I know its one of the few mons that has Thunder, but it also potentially invites Dugtrio into the field, the same way I take the issue of Dewgong giving Primeape a free switch-in.

I personally still think Dewgong is overall more viable then Chinchou. While Chinchou does admittedly fit on more teams, when Dewgong is paired with the right teammates, most notably Gloom and Ninetales, it can be a monster to take down, especially given that most of its checks, most notably Primeape, don’t like switching into its Ice Beam. Dewgong also can shoot for a deadly Freeze on opposing Pokémon and is also harder for your average Pokemon to break through, due to Chinchou's physical frailty, this is also combined with the fact that Dewgong actually checks Xatu better then anything else in the tier, while Chinchou only checks Xatu if it’s coming in at full health. The tour stats also prove this, as Chinchou had high usage but a mediocre winrate, while Dewgong had an incredible winrate of 69% ~~nice~~

Marowhacked · Sep 28, 2020

ReeceHughes said:
Now that the GSC NU tournament has ended, I‘d like to show the overall usage stats of the tournament so we get a better feel as to what is trending in the metagame

GSC NU Usage Stats

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- + | Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % | + ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- + | 1 | Xatu | 56 | 65.12% | 44.64% | | 2 | Weezing | 39 | 45.35% | 41.03% | | 3 | Primeape | 32 | 37.21% | 37.50% | | 4 | Chinchou | 28 | 32.56% | 42.86% | | 5 | Pineco | 26 | 30.23% | 57.69% | | 6 | Magnemite | 23 | 26.74% | 43.48% | | 7 | Wigglytuff | 20 | 23.26% | 45.00% | | 8 | Kingler | 17 | 19.77% | 70.59% | | 8 | Stantler | 17 | 19.77% | 41.18% | | 10 | Arbok | 16 | 18.60% | 50.00% | | 10 | Rapidash | 16 | 18.60% | 31.25% | | 12 | Dugtrio | 15 | 17.44% | 53.33% | | 13 | Ninetales | 14 | 16.28% | 57.14% | | 14 | Dewgong | 13 | 15.12% | 69.23% | | 14 | Magmar | 13 | 15.12% | 23.08% | | 16 | Hitmonlee | 11 | 12.79% | 63.64% | | 17 | Dunsparce | 10 | 11.63% | 40.00% | | 18 | Fearow | 9 | 10.47% | 66.67% | | 18 | Octillery | 9 | 10.47% | 44.44% | | 20 | Azumarill | 8 | 9.30% | 37.50% | | 20 | Sunflora | 8 | 9.30% | 37.50% | | 22 | Flareon | 7 | 8.14% | 71.43% | | 22 | Sudowoodo | 7 | 8.14% | 42.86% | | 24 | Poliwhirl | 6 | 6.98% | 66.67% | | 24 | Lickitung | 6 | 6.98% | 50.00% | | 24 | Mantine | 6 | 6.98% | 33.33% | | 27 | Dragonair | 5 | 5.81% | 80.00% | | 27 | Pupitar | 5 | 5.81% | 60.00% | | 27 | Farfetch’d | 5 | 5.81% | 40.00% | | 30 | Gloom | 4 | 4.65% | 75.00% | | 30 | Porygon | 4 | 4.65% | 75.00% | | 30 | Furret | 4 | 4.65% | 75.00% | | 30 | Flaaffy | 4 | 4.65% | 50.00% | | 30 | Venomoth | 4 | 4.65% | 50.00% | | 30 | Cubone | 4 | 4.65% | 25.00% | | 36 | Houndour | 3 | 3.49% | 66.67% | | 36 | Bayleef | 3 | 3.49% | 66.67% | | 38 | Parasect | 2 | 2.33% | 100.00% | | 38 | Corsola | 2 | 2.33% | 50.00% | | 38 | Exeggcute | 2 | 2.33% | 50.00% | | 38 | Ledian | 2 | 2.33% | 50.00% | | 38 | Tangela | 2 | 2.33% | 50.00% | | 43 | Voltorb | 1 | 1.16% | 100.00% | | 43 | Magcargo | 1 | 1.16% | 100.00% | | 43 | Slowpoke | 1 | 1.16% | 100.00% | | 43 | Tentacool | 1 | 1.16% | 0.00% | | 43 | Persian | 1 | 1.16% | 0.00% | | 43 | Snubbull | 1 | 1.16% | 0.00% | | 43 | Sneasel | 1 | 1.16% | 0.00% | | 43 | Murkrow | 1 | 1.16% | 0.00% |

Xatu continues to be the best Pokemon in the tier, being on over half of all teams in the tournament is an impressive feat

Magnemite saw a huge spike in usage this tour, coming in at 6th place. I wonder if it deserves a VR rise

Arbok also saw surprisingly high usage, even more then some staples such as Magmar

Kingler is doing extraordinarily well, having an excellent win rate of 70%, higher then any Pokemon in the top ten

Although the usage of these Fire types was high, they had very poor winrates. I contribute this to the overall presence of Anti-Fire options in the tier, such as Chinchou, Ninetales and Dugtrio

Specially bulky defensive Pokemon are doing very well, all three of these Pokemon had well over 55% usage.

Sunflora somehow had good usage although a mediocre win rate. This surprised me, as Sunflora was used even more then Gloom who I consider to be easily the best Grass type in GSC NU

Sudowoodo saw surprisingly little usage despite the fact that Normal types such as Wigglytuff and Fearow are currently common and dangerous.

Persian was only used once. I think we should move this one down on the VR, it faces serious competition from Stantler

Let me know any nominations you have based off of these usage stats!

Do you have access to data about the most commonly used moves/sets for the top mons? One thing that I find really interesting about this tier is the diversity in opinions on the best sets and what should be considered standard. I think this information would be really helpful for both newcomers to the tier trying to build for the first time and also for people trying to cook up some fresh ideas.

dawnbuster · Sep 28, 2020

Marowhacked said:
Do you have access to data about the most commonly used moves/sets for the top mons? One thing that I find really interesting about this tier is the diversity in opinions on the best sets and what should be considered standard. I think this information would be really helpful for both newcomers to the tier trying to build for the first time and also for people trying to cook up some fresh ideas.

dawnbuster · Jan 17, 2021

Well, the time has come. With the final GSC NU game of GSCPL concluding, I went ahead and obtained the usage stats for the NU games in the tournament in order to see how the tier has evolved. Overall, the tier seems to be going in a very positive direction and there is plenty of innovation to be used still. I will use the GSC PL usage stats for the A and B Pokemon.

Cheers to Xatu for having over 80% usage btw ._..

GSC NU IN GSCPL USAGE STATS

Code:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Xatu               |   28 |  82.35% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Weezing            |   16 |  47.06% |  43.75% |
| 3    | Kingler            |   12 |  35.29% |  58.33% |
| 4    | Pineco             |   10 |  29.41% |  70.00% |
| 5    | Flareon            |    9 |  26.47% |  55.56% |
| 5    | Wigglytuff         |    9 |  26.47% |  55.56% |
| 5    | Octillery          |    9 |  26.47% |  33.33% |
| 8    | Gloom              |    8 |  23.53% |  62.50% |
| 8    | Primeape           |    8 |  23.53% |  50.00% |
| 8    | Magnemite          |    8 |  23.53% |  50.00% |
| 11   | Chinchou           |    7 |  20.59% |  71.43% |
| 11   | Dewgong            |    7 |  20.59% |  42.86% |
| 11   | Magmar             |    7 |  20.59% |  42.86% |
| 11   | Sudowoodo          |    7 |  20.59% |  42.86% |
| 15   | Rapidash           |    6 |  17.65% |  83.33% |
| 15   | Hitmonlee          |    6 |  17.65% |  66.67% |
| 17   | Graveler           |    5 |  14.71% |  40.00% |
| 17   | Stantler           |    5 |  14.71% |  40.00% |
| 17   | Dugtrio            |    5 |  14.71% |  40.00% |
| 20   | Ninetales          |    4 |  11.76% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Azumarill          |    4 |  11.76% |  50.00% |
| 22   | Sneasel            |    3 |   8.82% |   0.00% |
| 22   | Fearow             |    3 |   8.82% |   0.00% |
| 24   | Dragonair          |    2 |   5.88% | 100.00% |
| 24   | Venomoth           |    2 |   5.88% |  50.00% |
| 24   | Tangela            |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 24   | Dunsparce          |    2 |   5.88% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Murkrow            |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Houndour           |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Porygon            |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Shuckle            |    1 |   2.94% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Magcargo           |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Persian            |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Hitmonchan         |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Farfetch’d         |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Cubone             |    1 |   2.94% |   0.00% |

Missing 1 Pokemon from RANSHIIN.

Teamates and moves section here!

Based off this and a few other things I’m going to suggest quite a number of nominations to this Viability Rankings.

:gs/Kingler:

Kingler from A2 to A1 Rank, maybe even S2 Rank alongside Weezing.

Kingler is clearly one of the best Pokemon in GSC NU now. 60% win rate from the third most used Pokemon is nuts, and it has an incredible role in the tier. Stall teams are rising, and Kingler is an absolute pain for those teams, forcing them to run Xatu which isint even a perfect check thanks to Kingler's great pairing with Gloom(who we will get to in time). It’s splashable on almost every team, and is an incredibly dominant force in the tier.

:gs/Gloom:

Gloom from B1 to A2 Rank, and Azumarill from B1 to A3 Rank(maybe A2)

Gloom has exploded in popularity and was seen a ton in the tour while having a positive win rate. It’s able to do so much for its team with its positive matchup vs many common Pokemon such as Primeape and Chinchou, and can spread paralysis easily with Stun Spore. With it splashable on just about any team style, Gloom is definitely deserving of A2 Rank in my opinion. Now, Azumarill didint have a very good show in GSCPL(it’s my fault ._.), but it’s supporting capabilities and ability to counter many prominent Pokemon such as Rapidash and Magmar are invaluable, and forms an amazing defensive pair with Gloom and Ninetales. Light Screen is incredibly useful alongside Kingler as well. It’s seen great use outside of GSCPL so I’d be happy to rise it.

:gs/Octillery:

Octillery and Dugtrio up to A2 Rank, Magmar up to top of A3 rank, and Rapidash to A2 as well

These four all saw good success, especially Octillery. The slight drop in usage of Chinchou and rise of offensive teams is great news for Octillery, as offensive teams often don’t have a very reliable switch in to Octillery, and can its solid matchup against most of the tier one on one is great. Dugtrio saw good success is definitely one of the premier offensive Pokemon with its unmatched speed, good attack, and STAB Earthquake. Its a great lead, can be a major pain to deal with lategame, and recently Thief Dugtrio has had popularity for Pokemon such as Azumarill. Lastly, Magmar saw good performance, with its ability to 2HKO almost the entire metagame with Fire Blast, great speed, and crazy coverage, so I’d be happy to nom it to A3 rank. Lastly, Rapidash had a phenomenal showing with over 80% winrate. Hypnosis lead sets are still common, and RestTalk Rapidash is seeing more use for its ability to sit on Pokemon such as Magmar, Ninetales, and do well vs Xatu.

:gs/Magnemite:

Magnemite to high A2

Magnemite saw a lot of usage for good reason, it is an amazing Pokemon. It has many useful resistances to Psychic(one of the best Xatu checks) and Normal, and it hits very hard. It has to be taken into account when building teams and even still is a threat, so High A2 looks good for it. People are even using random Hidden Power Ground on Pokemon like Gloom, and Fire Blast Weezing is making a comeback, all because of this magnet.

:gs/Stantler:

Stantler from A4 rank to A2 Rank, and Wigglytuff from A4 to A3

Curse Light Screen Stantler O_O. This set is incredibly dangerous, able to completely dominate stall teams that lack Shuckle. It gets a KO almost every game if played well, able to boost its defensive abilities while retaining its hard hitting STAB Return, so I’m nomming Stantler for mid A2. Wigglytuff on the other hand is an incredibly well rounded and dangerous Pokemon with Curse, and it saw good usage and winrate on a lot of teams. Its very splashable, and with all of this I’m nomming for second in A3 behind Magmar

:gs/Graveler:

Graveler from B2 to bottoms of A4, and Dragonair from B3 to B1.

Graveler has had a resurgence recently with its offensive Substitute set being very dangerous with paralysis support. It’s useful resistance to Normal and Explosion are also useful. I still think Rapid Spin Graveler is garbage lol, but with its decent performance in GSC PL I’d nom it for A4. Dragonair is an exceptional Growth pass recipient and supporting Pokemon, with decent bulky, Light Screen, Reflect, and Thunder Wave, and it saw good usage in GSCPL.

:gs/Pidgeot:

Pidgeot from B3 to B2, Persian from B3 to B1, and Hitmonchan and Mantine from C1 to B3

Pidgeot a useful defensive Pokemon with its good bulk and access to moves like Reflect and Whirlwind while also hitting decently hard. Persian is seeing usage with its blazing speed, good attack letting it hit hard, and other useful moves like Thunder, Thief, Hypnosis, Nightmare, and even Amnesia is good on it. Hitmonchan faces completion from Hitmonlee but it has a better matchup against physical threats such as Dugtrio, and isint instantly destroyed by Primeape. File 13 came up with Agility Mantine a while ago and it seems to be a solid late game cleaner and offensive threat with good matchups vs Pokemon like Rapidash, but Mantine can also be a Spikes immune bulky Water with access to Haze on defensive teams, although the 4x weakness to Electric is a bit dire lol.

Now for the drops(not many of em tbh)

Fearow should drop a slight bit from A4 to top of B1

Fearow had a rather poor showing, only being used three times and not winning any game. It lets in a lot of mons like Sudowoodo and Magnemite if runnin RestTalk and isint very good defensively. It’s still quite good, but I think B1 is better for it.

:gs/Dewgong:

Dewgong should drop to A2

Dewgong is incredible, but it faces a lot of competition from Azumaril, who resists Fire, and has Light Screen. Dewgong is still better offensively with its ability to spam Ice Beam and having Encore, Azus traits are more useful most of the time I feel.

:gs/Sneasel:

Drop Exeggcute and Sneasel to C1 Rank

Sneasel really isint very good, having little opportunity to come in except vs Xatu and it doesn’t hit anything very hard. Exeggcute faces a shit ton of competition from Gloom, with Explosion and STAB Psychic being the only reason to use it.

:gs/Hitmontop:

All of these are ass and should drop further lol.
Hitmontop is almost entirely outclassed by the other Hitmons. Bayleef is outclassed by Gloom and very passive. Slowpoke gets destroyed by Xatu, and the many other Electric moves in the tier. Murkrow is just electric weak Houndour, and I don’t really have to explain Delibird, just use Pineco instead.

NEW POKEMON NOMS

Omanyte has a decent place due to its normal resistance alongside decently strong Surf and access to Thief. Phanpy is really bad, but I think maybe bottom of D due to its unique combo of Roar and Encore.

Volk · Jan 28, 2021

I'm very new to this meta, so feel free to disregard my opinions, but I have watched a lot of matches and finally started playing, so I wanted to comment on some of ReeceHughes's nominations. On the whole, I don't disagree with any of them, but I am only going to comment on the ones I have at least a decently informed opinion. So note that if I don't mention a nomination, it is not because I don't support it, it is just because my opinion on the nomination just isn't really valuable so I chose not to give it.

Gloom B1 -> A2 Support
In my experience, this Pokemon is pretty much carried by its typing. It is really good at patching up random weaknesses your team may have, such as against Chinchou, Hitmonlee, and Primeape. The move pool is also reasonably diverse, allowing Gloom to take on a wide variety of roles and remain a presence throughout the game. At the very least, this ought to be somewhere in A.

Dugtrio A3 -> A2 Support
More than anything else, I am an RBY UU player. Knowing this, it should not surprise you that I gravitated to Dugtrio immediately when I started this tier. I think this is one of the most underrated Pokemon in the entire tier. Being the fastest Pokemon in the tier is an absurd trait to have. I think Dugtrio's ability to just sweep outright is being extremely underplayed right now. Dugtrio really doesn't require much support to just get in and close the game. I wouldn't be surprised if this Pokemon ends up as like a top five Pokemon or something. It's great.

Also, call me crazy, but I think leading with this Pokemon is a waste of time. Keep it in the back for sweeping.

Stantler A4 -> A2 Support
Yes, yes, so much yes. Stantler is a vicious Pokemon with crazy utility. Stantler has Screens, Curse, Hypnosis, and a solid offensive move pool. Stantler can lead, sweep, break walls, or receive Baton Pass. This is one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the tier and remarkably difficult to switch into. It reminds me quite a bit of RBY UU's Kangaskhan.

I was planning on writing more comments, but those were the only ones I thought I had something of value to say. I look forward to getting more involved in this tier and getting a better view of it as a whole. Cheers!

Earthworm · Jan 29, 2021

ReeceHughes said:
Kingler from A2 to A1 Rank, maybe even S2 Rank alongside Weezing.

Kingler is clearly one of the best Pokemon in GSC NU now. 60% win rate from the third most used Pokemon is nuts, and it has an incredible role in the tier. Stall teams are rising, and Kingler is an absolute pain for those teams, forcing them to run Xatu which isint even a perfect check thanks to Kingler's great pairing with Gloom(who we will get to in time). It’s splashable on almost every team, and is an incredibly dominant force in the tier.

Kingler + support teams are certainly some of the most fearsome. I support this move to A1.

Gloom from B1 to A2 Rank, and Azumarill from B1 to A3 Rank(maybe A2)

Gloom has exploded in popularity and was seen a ton in the tour while having a positive win rate. It’s able to do so much for its team with its positive matchup vs many common Pokemon such as Primeape and Chinchou, and can spread paralysis easily with Stun Spore. With it splashable on just about any team style, Gloom is definitely deserving of A2 Rank in my opinion. Now, Azumarill didint have a very good show in GSCPL(it’s my fault ._.), but it’s supporting capabilities and ability to counter many prominent Pokemon such as Rapidash and Magmar are invaluable, and forms an amazing defensive pair with Gloom and Ninetales. Light Screen is incredibly useful alongside Kingler as well. It’s seen great use outside of GSCPL so I’d be happy to rise it.

Gloom can go straight to the top of A2 (or maybe right below Pineco). As for Azumarill, it's clearly not bad but I don't think there is enough evidence to support a climb to A3 or A2. Being setup fodder for Kingler is clearly also a very undesirable trait. I will support a rise to A4 somewhere.

Octillery and Dugtrio up to A2 Rank, Magmar up to top of A3 rank, and Rapidash to A2 as well

These four all saw good success, especially Octillery. The slight drop in usage of Chinchou and rise of offensive teams is great news for Octillery, as offensive teams often don’t have a very reliable switch in to Octillery, and can its solid matchup against most of the tier one on one is great. Dugtrio saw good success is definitely one of the premier offensive Pokemon with its unmatched speed, good attack, and STAB Earthquake. Its a great lead, can be a major pain to deal with lategame, and recently Thief Dugtrio has had popularity for Pokemon such as Azumarill. Lastly, Magmar saw good performance, with its ability to 2HKO almost the entire metagame with Fire Blast, great speed, and crazy coverage, so I’d be happy to nom it to A3 rank. Lastly, Rapidash had a phenomenal showing with over 80% winrate. Hypnosis lead sets are still common, and RestTalk Rapidash is seeing more use for its ability to sit on Pokemon such as Magmar, Ninetales, and do well vs Xatu.

Octillery is a valuable Pokemon but it had a pretty mediocre showing with only a 33% win rate. I was a bit surprised that Dugtrio wasn't used more in the tour because I think it should be pretty strong. I've also experienced plenty of games where Dugtrio was dominant. It has great synergy with Explosion / Self-Destruct Rock-types as well. Magmar had a decent showing that surpassed Fearow's at least, so bumping it up a bit in A4 seems good. Rapidash had pretty remarkable success so I think it can swap places with Ninetales, which did not achieve that level of success.

Magnemite to high A2

Magnemite saw a lot of usage for good reason, it is an amazing Pokemon. It has many useful resistances to Psychic(one of the best Xatu checks) and Normal, and it hits very hard. It has to be taken into account when building teams and even still is a threat, so High A2 looks good for it. People are even using random Hidden Power Ground on Pokemon like Gloom, and Fire Blast Weezing is making a comeback, all because of this magnet.

I agree with this. There aren't many viable Pokemon that can take it on and it gets plenty of opportunities to come in against Xatu and Normal-types, plus Gloom if it lacks Hidden Power Ground.

Stantler from A4 rank to A2 Rank, and Wigglytuff from A4 to A3

Curse Light Screen Stantler O_O. This set is incredibly dangerous, able to completely dominate stall teams that lack Shuckle. It gets a KO almost every game if played well, able to boost its defensive abilities while retaining its hard hitting STAB Return, so I’m nomming Stantler for mid A2. Wigglytuff on the other hand is an incredibly well rounded and dangerous Pokemon with Curse, and it saw good usage and winrate on a lot of teams. Its very splashable, and with all of this I’m nomming for second in A3 behind Magmar

Stantler does seem dangerous but I'm having trouble deciding which Pokemon it is actually better than right now. Its limited usage and win rate also discourage me from putting it as high as A2. As for Wigglytuff, it seems to be popular and performing reasonably well so I agree with moving it to A3.

Graveler from B2 to bottoms of A4, and Dragonair from B3 to B1.

Graveler has had a resurgence recently with its offensive Substitute set being very dangerous with paralysis support. It’s useful resistance to Normal and Explosion are also useful. I still think Rapid Spin Graveler is garbage lol, but with its decent performance in GSC PL I’d nom it for A4. Dragonair is an exceptional Growth pass recipient and supporting Pokemon, with decent bulky, Light Screen, Reflect, and Thunder Wave, and it saw good usage in GSCPL.

Graveler did alright but I'm hesitant to put it in A4 too quickly, so I think B1 might be better. Dragonair performed ridiculously well in the battles I saw, happy to raise it to B1.

Pidgeot from B3 to B2, Persian from B3 to B1, and Hitmonchan and Mantine from C1 to B3

Pidgeot a useful defensive Pokemon with its good bulk and access to moves like Reflect and Whirlwind while also hitting decently hard. Persian is seeing usage with its blazing speed, good attack letting it hit hard, and other useful moves like Thunder, Thief, Hypnosis, Nightmare, and even Amnesia is good on it. Hitmonchan faces completion from Hitmonlee but it has a better matchup against physical threats such as Dugtrio, and isint instantly destroyed by Primeape. File 13 came up with Agility Mantine a while ago and it seems to be a solid late game cleaner and offensive threat with good matchups vs Pokemon like Rapidash, but Mantine can also be a Spikes immune bulky Water with access to Haze on defensive teams, although the 4x weakness to Electric is a bit dire lol.

These Pokemon were either used once and lost or not used at all in GSC PL. Of these, I think Persian and Hitmonchan have the most potential but as I haven't seen it demonstrated I think we should hold off on these.

Now for the drops(not many of em tbh)

Fearow should drop a slight bit from A4 to top of B1

Fearow had a rather poor showing, only being used three times and not winning any game. It lets in a lot of mons like Sudowoodo and Magnemite if runnin RestTalk and isint very good defensively. It’s still quite good, but I think B1 is better for it.

Agreed.

Dewgong should drop to A2

Dewgong is incredible, but it faces a lot of competition from Azumaril, who resists Fire, and has Light Screen. Dewgong is still better offensively with its ability to spam Ice Beam and having Encore, Azus traits are more useful most of the time I feel.

Encore and STAB Ice Beam are both really useful: Encore makes it not a sitting duck against Kingler and with Dewgong's Speed it can mess up various Pokemon, Ice Beam threatens Xatu and Gloom. None of these Pokemon are Pokemon you would ideally like to allow in for free. Nevertheless, I do think Ice typing works against Dewgong overall so I am okay to drop it to A3 and allow other Pokemon to rise to A2 in its place.

Drop Exeggcute and Sneasel to C1 Rank

Sneasel really isint very good, having little opportunity to come in except vs Xatu and it doesn’t hit anything very hard. Exeggcute faces a shit ton of competition from Gloom, with Explosion and STAB Psychic being the only reason to use it.

I'm fine with the Sneasel drop. Exeggcute I think still has a worthwhile niche as an offensive Explosion with some useful defensive attributes. I am okay to drop it quite far but I think B3 is a good spot for it.

All of these are ass and should drop further lol.
Hitmontop is almost entirely outclassed by the other Hitmons. Bayleef is outclassed by Gloom and very passive. Slowpoke gets destroyed by Xatu, and the many other Electric moves in the tier. Murkrow is just electric weak Houndour, and I don’t really have to explain Delibird, just use Pineco instead.

Murkrow is already very low. Hitmontop I am okay to drop further. Slowpoke I think is in an okay spot but I could be persuaded to change my mind. Bayleef could probably drop but I'd rather move the Pokemon that are better than it higher.

NEW POKEMON NOMS

Omanyte has a decent place due to its normal resistance alongside decently strong Surf and access to Thief. Phanpy is really bad, but I think maybe bottom of D due to its unique combo of Roar and Encore.

Omanyte I am happy to rank since it's a decent Rock-type. Phanpy I am not sure about. It does have decent base HP but I feel like I'd rather see it in action before ranking it.

I am not making these changes immediately in case anyone has any further feedback.

Lukee · Jan 29, 2021

Yo so take my words with a grain of salt Im not the best player of all time but I cant let ReeceHughes continue to diss murkrow as well as my general opionions

ReeceHughes said:
All of these are ass and should drop further lol.
Hitmontop is almost entirely outclassed by the other Hitmons. Bayleef is outclassed by Gloom and very passive. Slowpoke gets destroyed by Xatu, and the many other Electric moves in the tier. Murkrow is just electric weak Houndour, and I don’t really have to explain Delibird, just use Pineco instead.

I agree with Hitmontop dropping for sure and don't really have an opinion on Slowpoke and Bayleef, however Murkrow should definitely not drop further. while it may lose to hp electric xatu, its main competition in Houndoor also cant swithch into drill peck at all either and is slower. Murkrows speed tier is far from excellent but outrunning hitmonlee and the rarer chan can be very beneficial for teams. I also believe Delibird shouldn't drop further, while it is a shit spiker compared to god pineco, It does manage to grab a slight niche for itself with thief, spikes and outrunning houndoor, magnemite, flareon, etc. It also has stab ice beam for gloom as well. Its definetly a shit mon but it could be much worse.

ReeceHughes said:
Gloom from B1 to A2 Rank, and Azumarill from B1 to A3 Rank(maybe A2)
Gloom has exploded in popularity and was seen a ton in the tour while having a positive win rate. It’s able to do so much for its team with its positive matchup vs many common Pokemon such as Primeape and Chinchou, and can spread paralysis easily with Stun Spore. With it splashable on just about any team style, Gloom is definitely deserving of A2 Rank in my opinion. Now, Azumarill didint have a very good show in GSCPL(it’s my fault ._.), but it’s supporting capabilities and ability to counter many prominent Pokemon such as Rapidash and Magmar are invaluable, and forms an amazing defensive pair with Gloom and Ninetales. Light Screen is incredibly useful alongside Kingler as well. It’s seen great use outside of GSCPL so I’d be happy to rise it.

I agree with Gloom rising but I dont think Azumarill deserves A3, I agree with what Earthworm said about it.

ReeceHughes said:
Octillery and Dugtrio up to A2 Rank, Magmar up to top of A3 rank, and Rapidash to A2 as well

These four all saw good success, especially Octillery. The slight drop in usage of Chinchou and rise of offensive teams is great news for Octillery, as offensive teams often don’t have a very reliable switch in to Octillery, and can its solid matchup against most of the tier one on one is great. Dugtrio saw good success is definitely one of the premier offensive Pokemon with its unmatched speed, good attack, and STAB Earthquake. Its a great lead, can be a major pain to deal with lategame, and recently Thief Dugtrio has had popularity for Pokemon such as Azumarill. Lastly, Magmar saw good performance, with its ability to 2HKO almost the entire metagame with Fire Blast, great speed, and crazy coverage, so I’d be happy to nom it to A3 rank. Lastly, Rapidash had a phenomenal showing with over 80% winrate. Hypnosis lead sets are still common, and RestTalk Rapidash is seeing more use for its ability to sit on Pokemon such as Magmar, Ninetales, and do well vs Xatu.

Dont have much to say about Octillery and Rapidash but I definitely support Dugtrio and Magmar rising up. Dugtrio rules the speed tier and sub toxic can be a deadly set for many teams. Magmar has trouble vs fire types and Chinchou in the tier but otherwise nukes the rest of it.

ReeceHughes said:
Pidgeot from B3 to B2, Persian from B3 to B1, and Hitmonchan and Mantine from C1 to B3

Pidgeot a useful defensive Pokemon with its good bulk and access to moves like Reflect and Whirlwind while also hitting decently hard. Persian is seeing usage with its blazing speed, good attack letting it hit hard, and other useful moves like Thunder, Thief, Hypnosis, Nightmare, and even Amnesia is good on it. Hitmonchan faces completion from Hitmonlee but it has a better matchup against physical threats such as Dugtrio, and isint instantly destroyed by Primeape. File 13 came up with Agility Mantine a while ago and it seems to be a solid late game cleaner and offensive threat with good matchups vs Pokemon like Rapidash, but Mantine can also be a Spikes immune bulky Water with access to Haze on defensive teams, although the 4x weakness to Electric is a bit dire lol.

Dont have opions on these mons but do want to say Persian is definitely an underated pokemon and deserves to rise. Its speed tier and movepool are both excellent.

ReeceHughes said:
Omanyte has a decent place due to its normal resistance alongside decently strong Surf and access to Thief. Phanpy is really bad, but I think maybe bottom of D due to its unique combo of Roar and Encore.

I agree with both of these being on the Vr. Omanyte is definitely better then the shit in D tier and Phanpy fits right in with D tier.

That's all I have to say, thank you for reading.

dawnbuster · Jan 31, 2021

I’ll go more in depth on Phanpy’s niche, and will edit in some replays of it soon. Basically its able to act as a usable check to Curse Normals(switches in as they Curse, then Roars them out), when switching in an aggressive predict. Its also a good check to Weezing that lack Hidden Power Grass, Arbok, and is a major pain for Baton Pass teams thanks to Roar. Like I said in previous post, Phanpy is very limited in what it can do and gets destroyed by Xatu and Waters, but its niche is usable enough that I believe its worthy of at least D Rank(I’d definitely rather use it over like Abra and Wartortle lol)
:gs/Phanpy:

Phanpy @ Leftovers
Ability: Pickup
- Earthquake
- Encore
- Roar
- Rest

Edit: Encore has since been remove from Phanpy on PS, so Phanpy is pretty much useless now :(

cherryb0ng · Feb 2, 2021

Does Phanpy get Rapid Spin?

Since I tried Persian, a mon with access to normal STAB that outspeeds xatu and even some of the fire types seems too good to pass up

toaster04 · Feb 5, 2021

cherryb0ng said:
Does Phanpy get Rapid Spin?

Since I tried Persian, a mon with access to normal STAB that outspeeds xatu and even some of the fire types seems too good to pass up

Unfortunately no, but I agree that Phanpy should go onto the VR because of it's niche, it has some pretty positive traits that are somewhat respectable in the tier and what you can do with it; going to keep this short

- Semi-decent gloom check, can rest off poison but eventually gets worn down while encoring curse

- Good prediction (risk / reward and encore)

- as Reece said, waters are very dangerous and force you out

Certainly put it on D due to these traits, but it's a bit tougher for it vs the top metagame Pokemon.

Earthworm · Feb 28, 2021

The OP has now been updated. The changelog is below.

Xatu (1 -> 1, +0)
Weezing (2 -> 2, +0)
Primeape (3 -> 3, +0)
Kingler (8 -> 4, +4)
Pineco (5 -> 5, +0)
Gloom (22 -> 6, +16)
Chinchou (6 -> 7, -1)
Dugtrio (10 -> 8, +2)
Magnemite (13 -> 9, +4)
Rapidash (12 -> 10, +2)
Hitmonlee (9 -> 11, -2)
Dewgong (4 -> 12, -8)
Ninetales (7 -> 13, -6)
Stantler (15 -> 14, +1)
Wigglytuff (16 -> 15, +1)
Sudowoodo (11 -> 16, -5)
Octillery (14 -> 17, -3)
Magmar (18 -> 18, +0)
Azumarill (21 -> 19, +2)
Flareon (19 -> 20, -1)
Lickitung (20 -> 21, -1)
Fearow (17 -> 22, -5)
Dunsparce (23 -> 23, +0)
Graveler (28 -> 24, +4)
Farfetch'd (24 -> 25, -1)
Arbok (25 -> 26, -1)
Dragonair (37 -> 27, +10)
Porygon (26 -> 28, -2)
Shuckle (27 -> 29, -2)
Pupitar (30 -> 30, +0)
Persian (32 -> 31, +1)
Houndour (36 -> 32, +4)
Pidgeot (33 -> 33, +0)
Ledian (34 -> 34, +0)
Raticate (35 -> 35, +0)
Exeggcute (29 -> 36, -7)
Sneasel (31 -> 37, -6)
Seaking (38 -> 38, +0)
Mantine (39 -> 39, +0)
Hitmonchan (40 -> 40, +0)
Gastly (41 -> 41, +0)
Corsola (42 -> 42, +0)
Cubone (43 -> 43, +0)
Slowpoke (44 -> 44, +0)
Poliwhirl (45 -> 45, +0)
Bayleef (47 -> 46, +1)
Machoke (48 -> 47, +1)
Parasect (49 -> 48, +1)
Flaaffy (50 -> 49, +1)
Magcargo (51 -> 50, +1)
Seadra (52 -> 51, +1)
Furret (53 -> 52, +1)
Hitmontop (46 -> 53, -7)
Elekid (54 -> 54, +0)
Delibird (55 -> 55, +0)
Sunflora (56 -> 56, +0)
Tangela (57 -> 57, +0)
Voltorb (58 -> 58, +0)
Drowzee (59 -> 59, +0)
Ariados (60 -> 60, +0)
Venomoth (61 -> 61, +0)
Murkrow (62 -> 62, +0)
Tentacool (63 -> 63, +0)
Noctowl (64 -> 64, +0)
Staryu (65 -> 65, +0)
Snubbull (66 -> 66, +0)
Wartortle (67 -> 67, +0)
Rhyhorn (68 -> 68, +0)
Beedrill (69 -> 69, +0)
Omanyte (Unranked -> 70, NEW)
Charmeleon (70 -> 71, -1)
Abra (71 -> 72, -1)
Croconaw (72 -> 73, -1)

FNH · Apr 7, 2021

kinda dipped for a hot minute after gsc pl.

Gave the V/r a look and I do agree with a lot on it, but I do have some thoughts that I am open to discuss.

:magnemite:

ye, its good. Best part of its rise is that I'm very sure its usage started as a small joke, until it was realized that this brainless piece of metal can force Xatu out easily. That said, I think its to high though for its given capabilities. Mag is pretty good at coming in on the common Xatu sets [Psychic/HP electric or ice/Rest/sleep talk] Xatu is the most used mon of the tier and Magnemite doesn't care to much about a Psychic but its still 3hko'd by Night shade varients of Xatu. Its chipable and breakable and can be forced into rest cycles very fast. Gloom is pretty common swap in and runs Hp ground on about every set I see, so its able to force Magnemite out. Ninetales is also still a thing, and can go in on Magnemite. Well, what I am trying to say is, Magnemite only really comes in on Psychic from Xatu, and then hammers off one good attck or two, then gets forced out. Then it waits to for another Psychic (hopefully) and gets to use thunder one more time. It just lacks the bulk and speed to be were it is on this V/r. Maybe I am wrong here on it. Just to slow and frail to be that high. Like common, it's above Rapidash Magmar, Octillery, Stantler, and Lord Wiggleytuff. TF bro.

:wigglytuff:

I think this is an A1 rank mon. The curse Normal Stab Rest Talk set is criminally underused in the tier. Lax during GSC PL was carried on Wiggleytuff's shouders. I used it and it was a terrifying monster. 140 HP and curse can really be impossible to deal with without a mon that has Haze (notably Weezing or Xatu). Both of these two have there problems though. Weezing lacks good recovery, with Pain split being its only real option (you CAN rest talk, but Weezing needs its 3 other common moves to function well). Pain Split on Weezing means you are forgoing Explosion / Thunder (assuming Haze is along side Pain Split). This negates what Weezing is now capable of doing and opens its up to other threats (Water types etc). It's not a consistent option which is why most Weezing's are 2 attacks explosion haze, and lack recovery other than leftovers. A Weezing with out Haze or Explosion is rather useless, just view my first game vs Ranshiin. Xatu, on the otherhand, can use haze, but like Weezing it is crippling its move set (option 1: rest talk mono attack haze option 2: 3 attacks haze) Xatu either now lacks offensive capability or lacks recovery which is why haze isnt very common on Xatu. So the two most common haze user are either exploitable by other team members, or lack recovery which just lets Wiggley smash them on the swap/ or other team members + spike break them down.
The biggest threat to Wiggley though, probably comes in the form of fighting types, which are quite viable in the tier. Primeape is a total menace, and Hitmonlee is as well. Both obviously threaten a slow normal type, but once again both generally forgo recovery. Ranshiin brought a Primeape in our first game, and Wiggley took it down on the swap. So if your team has answers to fighting types, Wiggley can play the long game and just outlive them. The only fighting set i have seen that can go the long run vs this Wiggley is the rest talk. But lets not forget that either Primeape or Hitmonlee comming in on Double Egde, they are getting SLAMMED [(43.5 - 51.3%) for Primeape and (49.8 - 58.7%) for Hitmonlee.
Rock types aren't prevalent as well. I don't need a long paragraph to say explain why. Just Octillary shits on them, same with Azumarill.

:magmar:

Good SpA, great speed. a lot of FWG/Balance structures really struggle to deal with Magmar's great move pool. It's in a way a one stop shop if you are looking for a mon that can hit everything in the tier. The consistent threat that Magmar has to current teams being used really warrants him to rise in the V/r. Looking through the samples, most teams dont really want to come in on Magmar. Most of my teams from GSC PL (maybe all of them) dont really want to come in on Magmar as well. If your swap gets read, you are getting chunked. Frightening mon to face.

:shuckle:

Move to S rank. Fuck this thing.

Pirate and Reece, a lot of the C rank and down I think can be nuked. Looking at it, its comprised of very niche mons whose viablility isnt guaranteed. I think this is an argument that every V/r needs to have. Where do you draw the line for viablility and what should be included? At what point is something viable enough? Loose metric's of viablilty is what gets us a bloated V/r of PU mons that hardly function in the NU if they function at all. If you can get a mon to work in a game or two does it warrant a place on the V/r? Or is the niche vaiblity given because that mon fulfills a very specific role? Like Houndoor, really only used in Xatu trapping schemes which is why it sits at the B2 rank. Eggy is barely viable and outclassed by Gloom, but has use (or at least was) when every Xatu was Psychic Electric. Caetano created a metric for the BW V/r based on how much support the mon need and could give teammates, which I think works quite well and is easy to understand. There should be some general idea behind the metric of a V/r moving forward. As for this V/r I can't see myself trying much below C (few exceptions). The rank needs to be cleaned up with stuff like elekid seadra abra and so on removed. Or maybe I am just not understanding the criteria.

dawnbuster · Apr 7, 2021

As Holly [CEO of GSC NU] I’m pretty sure my view on this tier seems different than everyone else’s, and my perspective on this tier has changed quite a lot in the past few months so just gonna post my own Viability Rankings here. People have really begun to realise that offence is the arguable best playstyle in the tier and I feel this has changed things a lot. Offense is consistent, reliable, and dangerous all at the same time, featuring many heavy hitters like Dugtrio, Primeape, Xatu, Weezing, Kingler, etc etc. They have pretty good defensive backbone provided by Weezing, Xatu, and Octillery being examples of great offensive Pokemon with very solid defensive uses.

Xatu(Just want to address how good he is is, your largely hurting yourself not running it on offense and balance teams imo. Has excellent offensive and defensive utility and does so much in almost every game. I don’t think it’s mandatory per se, but its almost too good not to use on most teams)
:Kingler:

(Broken with para support)
:Dugtrio:

Dugtrio(Incredibly high I know, but I think Dug is such an offensive powerhouse that’s incredibly punishing and takes over games)
:Primeape:

Primeape(I have him lower due to Gloom/Weezing both being incredibly common and not having much defensive utility)
:Stantler:

Stantler(One of the best offensive mons by far. Has no counters except Shuckle, and can clean lategame or act as an early game wallbreaker with its Curs sets)
:Magnemite:

Magnemite(Walls key mons like Xatu and an absolute bitch to switch into)
:Dewgong:

Dewgong(Ice/Encore/Tox/Protect is the best set by far in my opinion. Very annoying to play around and provides a lot of utility)
:Magmar:

Magmar(FWG enemy)
:Chinchou:

Chinchou(Have him a lot lower due to competing with other Waters, and being somewhat flimsy vs common offense)
:Flareon:

Flareon(SubPass Flareon is the truth)
:Farfetchd:

Farfetch’d(Hella dangerous lol. People sleep on him and think he only passes then get thrashed by +2 Return)
:Shuckle:

Shuckle(FNH loves this mon. All seriousness though he walls like so many key threats)
:Sudowoodo:

Sudowoodo(I’m a bit lower on this mon. Struggles vs common offense with mons like Ape/Dugtrio/Octillery)
:Lickitung:

Lickitung(I think this mon is really eh now. Slow, doesn’t resist anything, and struggles to do much vs a lot of offense bc of this. Could be good with para support I suppose)
:Houndour:

Houndour(Houndour+Fighters is so fun oml....)
:Cubone:

Cubone(Baton Pass is balanced)
:Pidgeot:

Pidgeot(Been playing this tier almost a year and over 700+ games and still dunno what this mons best set is)
:Magcargo:

Magcargo (Mega underatted mon. Has a lot of useful defensive qualities and deserves much more use.)

Not gonna list anything else for C Ranks as I feel most are bad/too niche/rare, although some(Poliwhirl, Noctowl, Exeggcute) have legit solid uses. But I think a few mons could be nuked entirely from the current Viability Rankings. Delibird, Wartortle, Abra, Croconaw, and maybe Tangela and Charmeleon come to mind.

dawnbuster · May 1, 2022

S Rank

Xatu

S-
:Weezing:

Weezing

Dugtrio

A+
:Pineco:

Pineco

Octillery

Kingler

Stantler

A
:Wigglytuff:

Wigglytuff
:Gloom:

Gloom

Ninetales

Dewgong

Fearow

Magnemite

Chinchou

A-
:Sudowoodo:

Sudowoodo

Primeape

Magmar

Persian

Hitmonlee

Rapidash

B+
:Flareon:

Flareon

Lickitung

Azumarill

Dragonair

Houndour

Porygon

B
:Graveler:

Graveler

Dunsparce

Magcargo

Arbok

Exeggcute

B-
:Farfetch’d:

Farfetch’d
:Ledian:

Ledian

Cubone

Pupitar

Noctowl

Poliwhirl

Shuckle

C
:Hitmonchan:

Hitmonchan
:Pidgeot:

Pidgeot

Mantine

Ariados:

zf alt 2 · May 4, 2022

Elekid should not be removed from the rankings as it is quite a potent threat capable of beating FNH 3-4 times in a row on any given sunday between the hours of 8 pm and 1 am eastern time.

swagger is quite a good 4th move on many fast pokemon with no better options, such as fearow and dugtrio and rapidash.

bright powder pineco is good for dodging fireblasts and to get off the occasional suicide spikes/boom

FNH · May 4, 2022

zf alt 2 said:
Elekid should not be removed from the rankings as it is quite a potent threat capable of beating FNH 3-4 times in a row on any given sunday between the hours of 8 pm and 1 am eastern time.

If "FNH has lost to it" is criteria for keeping a mon on the VR then no mons would be removed (same goes for the bw ou vr).

Estarossa · Oct 16, 2022

Posting my personal take of how i view the vr in gsc nu now that gsc nu cup is over. Explained nearly all my rankings below, ignored xatu since its an obvious #1 for obvious reasons though. Realistically i think everything below A- has pretty limited use cases to specific teams and anything below in B- is just fishing tbh but yea.

S Rank
:xatu:

Xatu

S- Rank
:dugtrio:

Dugtrio

Octillery

Stantler

A+ Rank
:weezing:

Weezing

Fearow

Wigglytuff
:pineco:

Pineco

A Rank
:dewgong:

Dewgong

Magnemite

Chinchou

Persian

A- Rank
:kingler:

Kingler

Gloom

Houndour

Ninetales

Rapidash

B+ Rank
:porygon:

Porygon

Magmar

Primeape

Sudowoodo

Dragonair

B Rank
:pidgeot:

Pidgeot

Hitmonlee

Flareon

Graveler

Mantine

Azumarill

B- Rank
:dunsparce:

Dunsparce

Poliwhirl

Cubone

Ledian

Ariados
:farfetch Farfetch'd
:Exeggcute:

Exeggcute

Lickitung

Shuckle

Dugtrio #2 - insane speed control + stupid breaking potential with subscreech / subswagger, one of best ways of pushing like rest looping and the "impossible to switch into" electric types in magnemite/chinchou, very splashable and so dangerous.

Octillery #3 - so splashable and the only real dugtrio counter in tier with ice beam, checks a lot of shit in general and is often its own best answer lmao, outside of xatu definitely the mon i'd put on the most teams in general, very difficult to switch into without using opposing octillery / chinchou especially when ice beam freezes come into mix and dictates play a lot.

Stantler #4 - best offensive pokemon in the tier for sure, offers a lot of utility for an offensive mon too between speed, hypnosis, light screen and always poses an instant threat from the minute you get it out, curse sets are like one of the best early-mid game breakers in tier or very insanely dangerous late game threats too, you don't really actually wall stantler but just try and limit it as much as you can with your own damage and the minute light screen gets up things get really dicey at times, best counterplay is really a weezing / pineco trying to boom on it except neither of them switch in very well at all.

Weezing #5 / A+ - think its a bit lower than other people have voted it really. very high risk high reward pokemon but it does require a fair amount of insanely good prediction to get the best mileage out of it beyond just booming on something. the phys defense is fantastic but it doesn't have any resistances vs the attackers it wants to check like stantler / fearow so its on a rather rough timer unless you get it in freely, one attack from either of them (including drill pekc from fearow) means it never switches in again. its still an insane progress maker and so incredibly dangerous with all its coverage, but it doesn't feel as splashable as the first 4 to me and is definitely possible to not get amazing mileage out of it in practice unless you want to just insta boom.

Fearow #6 - This thing is insanely underrated on the current vr compared to now, mon has been really dominant in nusd onwards and for good reason. Raw power of a stab double edge alongside insane longevity from rest talk just makes it so dangerous, speed tier is really the most important part though when its ahead of stantler xatu and what not, it really is stupidly good at making progress and even ends up acting as a soft check to some things like duggy in practice too cause of the longevity and the longevity just makes it much more free to use without so much concern about your health compared to stantler even if its not quite as immensely dangerous compared to LS stantler.

Wiggly #7 - Absolutely broken mon, counterplay to it is ridiculously limited outside of haxing it, landing triple thunders with a magnemite and hoping they dont have a magnemite counter, or running niche things like hitmonlee. Curse Talk is insanely good defensive wall thats so hard to deal with once it gets going and can force desperate booms out of weezing and pineco so easily that are still fairly predictable, Rest Talk + Ice Beam and other such sets dont have the snowball potential but still are insanely dangerous off that special stat. Only thing that makes it lower than the previous stuff for me is that it does tend to rely on not getting rng'd which isn't necessarily that reliable over the long amount of turns it takes to get going, xatu has enough chances to fish a psy drop / psy crit etc but its still very easy for these things to get absorbed and not matter.

Pineco #8 - Spikes are just like, you should have them on every team. Don't rate it as high as i would say qwilfish in uu still though just because this is nowhere near as reliable, it cant get in quite as easily in practice without doubles / coming in on rest/coverage turns, and often ends up in like pineco speed ties which are really awkward in practice between spin / boom etc and often just come down to either gambling or accepting a spikes disadvantage to try again later.

Dewgong #9 - The bulk is insanely good at making it more reliable into Xatu and stab ice beam makes it pretty dangerous into xatu / fearow in general. Worse than octillery for sure when it has far less offensive power making it much more fodder to wiggly etc, other options like its non rest sets are pretty cool but i think rest ends up being the most reliable in practice to act as a pseudo duggy counter still (albeit with slight risk from rock slide still that octillery jsut doesn't have, definitely possible to lose to it still)

The electric duo #10/11 - These things are definitely stupidly hard to switch into and really pressure Octillery/ Xatu and what not. think magnemite is better because its also a fairly good fearow answer and has real resistances to xatu to make up for the bulk and causes problems for non eq stantler a little too, and has the power to not be checked by wiggly / gloom, but chinchou isnt checked by duggy as easily due to how much more painful surf is and being able to actually switch into octillery unlike mag. both have advantages over each other but chinchous bulk being awkward into xatu and it being a water that can't check duggy does make building a little harder compared to mag, mag compresses a lot of valuable normal checking.

Persian #12 - Best lead in the tier imo. Thing is criminally underrated on vr rn too like fearow is, there are absolutely no good plays into lead screech thief hypnosis dedge persian really that dont involve having things like pineco / weezing slept or xatu / octillery being thief'd and put into compromising positions later, its still a dangerously good wallbreaker with the nightmarish speed + screech combo later game too and often can force your opp to reveal like 3-4+ mons just to get into a position where they can handle it at the start. Weaker than stantler etc but speedier and nasty utility.

Kingler #13 - personally I Think this thing isn't actually that good sorry holly lol. Xatu more encouraged to go hp elec these days alongside a more encouraged ice beam octillery, meaning kingler is literally hard checked by the best mon in the tier most of the time even when its asleep compared to only the awake hp ice ones, kingler therefore practically forces houndour alongside it, which isn't bad but it does cause some teambuilding compromises at times in the octillery and rapidash/ninetales matchups at times, sunny beam is definitely the play to nuke octillery but things can still get rough. Kingler is still a really deadly threat with SD + body slam + sub etc, but definitely needs that pursuit support to really be super dangerous imo and there's more things that can still try and revenge it after like stantler / fearow everywhere.

Gloom #14 - chinchou counter, annoying to deal with its curse + stun spore + sludge bomb stuff, really dislikes more dewgong and more ice beam octillery, can struggle with some stuff like screech duggy and curse wiggly quite a bit, decent mon but a bit hard to fit imo especially with primeape completely dropping off and the aforementioned stuff, one of the best ways of setting up to support some other stuff with para though but does need to beware of some stuff a lot more lately.

Houndour #17 - Talking of houndour I put it fairly close to Kingler and Gloom since its practically necessary support for both of them to really work properly now imo. Sunny Beam's its best set to me atm, really covers up some of the awkward water weaknesses it can have while still removing Xatu for those things, Pursuit supports always gonna be valuable but Primeape is kinda shit now imo so there's one less reason to run it. Houndour definitely has other use cases too, in gsc cup i was running it without either of those mons as just something to support duggy in its xatu matchup and do some water breaking with its sunny beam set. think it can be a bit awkwrad around dugtrio / the fires that it cant touch and powers up with sunny day / water types if it can't get a sunny day up as they come in but pursuit.

The fires #16/#17 - Bit odd mons honestly, huge octillery issues but otherwise they are honestly really good. Speed tier + being strong xatu checks is really really nice, double edge from rapidash gives it a bit of room to pressure octillery that gets worn down too much / makes chinchou struggle, ninetales has the nicer bulk and bit harder to kill. Think ninetales having the massively improved bulk ends up pushing it a tiny bit ahead but these two are very closely linked depending on whether u want a bit more power or bit more bulk. Rapidash bulk definitely gives it other options as far as rest but no sleep talk goes since it can wake pretty well - Toxic roar flame rest is a cool set that really pairs nastily with spikes, octillery is either forced to rest the minute it takes a toxic or potentially take 25% everytime it tries to switch in and get roar'd, the bulk lets it easily roar against an octillery while taking fuck all too and it becomes this horribly dangerous shuffler that can reveal loads of info too.

Porygon #18 - Love this mon personally, its boltbeam is insanely strong + its got fantastic thief targets. Curse sets are kinda cool too i guess but i like it most for the ability to check a lot of top mons like octillery / xatu / duggy on top of 32 pp recover and thief + boltbeam.

Magmar #19 - scary threat with mixed coverage + thief, low bulk + duggy issues + not enough power into octillery etc can cause problems sometimes, also hard walled by the fires, but its really very potentially dangerous at times especially once octillery gets thiefd/starts sleeping and not a bad breaker at all.

Primeape #20- Awful mon imo but gotta give it some respect realistically. Threatens wiggly a lot and can be dangerous alongside houndour or just winning ties vs xatu if you greedy. Think the main issues for me is xatu mu + no real resistances + 80% accurate movepool everywhere, only meditate to boost, and there being more speedy options to deal with it now like fearow / persian to really threaten it.

Sudoo #21- Very annoying for mono normals, curse + boom checks them insanely well and has the option to easily take things out. Main issue with sudoo imo is that it has enormous mono bull check haunter uu syndrome in that it loses most of its threat if its needed to deal with a mono wiggly etc as it can't ever actually boom on your octillery. nonetheless the trade options and its threat level are very present.

Dragonair #22- Actually kinda annoying between screens + twave supporting a load of stuff, somewhat decent check to some stuff but bit held back by its bulk, but can be very annoying to deal with the paralysis and it can easily run coverage like thunder to actually threaten xatu / octillery etc. Decent at setting up suppotr for other pokemon realistically but not got the long term reliability as far as screens go to do this all game so you do have to make a fair bit of value out of it as early as you can.

Everything now on is pretty niche to me realistically.

Pidgeot #23- Has one specific niche but does kinda do it decently imo. Fun fearow partner with Thief + HP grass + Toxic + Dedge, easily catches important thiefs on things like magnemite / xatu / octillery to make fearow more dangerous into them, into matchups against rock types like graveler / sudoo it gets the toxic on which becomes really dangerous alongside spikes for those when dealing with fearow longer term, hp grass also has the potential to just massively hurt them. Flying spam (+ normal spam kinda if you run wiggly too) with it ends up being pretty good but wouldnt use it otherwise.

Hitmonlee #24- one of the best wiggly answers but really pineco fodder, struggles a lot with xatu etc too since even if it body slam paras its not strong enough to do that much and just forces a rest. Cant really fit moves it would want to unfortunately since its pretty much forced into hjk + slam + resttalk, rapid spin really just aint being fit without being even more fodder than you are and it has an awful pineco matchup anyway unlike graveler. Nonetheless it has definite use cases for teams that really need the wiggly answer desperately.

Flareon #25- growth pass into octillery or xatu can be ridiculous, if you can actually get it to work lmao. makes building awkward and you do invest rather heavily into the strat but it definitely can work out pretty well in practice so ntb. (everytime holly ran this into me in the past i kept loading roar ninetales lmaoooooo gg)

Graveler #26- Spin good, boom good, struggles to do much else and can struggle to even do both in practice sometimes, can't fit roar to really check wiggly very well and booms get predictable as a check to it. does shut down fearow decently and threatens stantler a bit.

Mantine #27- Annoying for Ice Beam Octillery, special bulk is ridiculous to the point that it still threatens hp elec xatu quite a bit with its strong ice beams, can fish ice beam freezes a fair bit and not an awful duggy check at all with its bulk though it can definitely lose to it. Think its a bit meh but it does counter fires and ice beam octillery so can be annoying to play against in practice.

Azumarill #28- Special bulk to really annoy octillery a lot. Light Screen + threats like Fearow sounds good in theory, in practice it works horribly since its forced to waste too many turns healing itself and just gets haxed playing that passively (see me vs lunala in last nusd).

Dunsparce #29- Glare nasty, normal types good, no 1 turn recovery annoying.

Poliwhirl #30- Belly Drum Lovely Kiss pretty threatening, not got enormous base power though and a lot of things like xatu run sleep talk + 2 moves that hurt it which is annoying. Its also not faster than xatu without a speed pass which really sucks, can be very dangerous bp threat though but bp teams are eh to me, dugtrio especially is a really annoying thing since screech's get passed through (will talk about more after).

Cubone #31- Mini marowak is danger if agility passed into it, can ohko octillery at +2 etc, pretty frail and slow otherwise though and can't work on anything else really so can be a bit hard to set up when bp'd in unless you also introduce defensive boosts into the chain.

Ledian #32- The way of getting defensive boosts into a chain. Barrier + Light Screen + Baton Pass presents options, substitute lets it play around booms from weezing / screeches from duggy a bit too, needs an agility pass help from ariados if it wants to do this. Duggy issues are annoying since it can easily send screeches into the chain at any point and has rock slide to be rather annoying too.

Ariados #33- Speed boost into chain + potential trapping to set up a chain and insta win, unlikely to work in practice as they can just go straight into dugtrio on you every single time and immediately break the chain though which is what makes it hard to set up this way. BP really fishy around duggy in general tbh.

Farfetch'd #34- SD passing into chain, can be good to help support cubone and what not, again more duggy weakness though and invitation opportunity for curse rocks too. bp just fishy so i don't really like it.

Eggy #35- Boom good, decent xatu check too, can somewhat check dugtrio (tho not with giga drain lol so hp grass evs hf) but the frailty does make it a bit awkward in general and its not really very powerful outside of boom trading, but that always has some value, should not be relied on to check either of these things you use it to check tho.

Lickitung #36- SD LIckitung definitely has some threat level with quicker boosting but its hella slow. very bulky though but has to make a lot of decisions between rest talk and having zero coverage and no defensive boosts, curse and just being a worse wiggly really, or coverage and really struggling with the slow speed + no recovery.

Shuckle #37 - Bad mon thats stupidly passive, stall doesn't work so well in this tier in general. does counter fearow, stantler, weezing, persian though so like stupidly annoying to play against but just bad.

FNH · Jan 1, 2023

A Message From the Actual CEO of GSC NU

Some general thoughts. Apart from S rank, order isn't really all that big of a deal.

S rank
:Xatu:

Xatu - Still the best in the tier. I don't feel the need to have to elaborate on this one. Hp electric is almost always better then ice, just in case you run into a rest talk war against Octillery. Although it does make it worst if you have to use rest talk on a dugtrio. nvm idk
:Octillery:

Octillery - I am high on this mon currently. So much so, I think its 2nd best right now. but I am also going to argue that it has qualities to place it alongside Xatu in the S rank. I think Xatu is the glue that holds the tier together, while Octillery is the glue that holds your team together. You place it on one team, and you have a secondary xatu pressure, a dugtrio/sudowoodo/graveler counter, you have your Ninetales/any other fire type swap, you get offensive presence with strong surfs, can even somehow function as a general sponge (in some cases at least). It pairs very nicely with other Pokemon as well like Ninetales, Gloom. Usually have to answer this mon with your own Octillery/water, or Gloom, but even then gloom can get sniped on the odd ice beam set and it sucks to go your own Octillery on a Hp electric. It's just absurdly easy to throw onto just about any team with no consequence and only needs one set to function despite there being some other options and variability. I used it as a defensive glue in teams while not sacrificing any offensive output thanks to its strong STABS and great SPA. Excellent mon with basically no drawbacks to use.

A+ rank
these are ordered, but all are close enough that its not worth arguing on over the other.

:weezing:

Weezing - Its still as good as ever. I don't think this placement is of much dispute. I like the 3 attacks set, but haze is also really nice. Pain-split is an interesting option as well. Prefer to avoid Hp grass due to loss of DV's.
:Primeape:

Primeape - the usage stats showed that by week 4 of GSC PL, Primeape was used 3 times total. I think two of the three was Lax. Earthworm's Thunder set is really good, should 2hko a Xatu + added benefit of paralysis. Can mix it up with meditate and rockslide as well. Personally, I think its a undervalued mon based on usage. Its fast, decently bulky, great STAB, great move-pool. Top tier threat in my opinion and its rather easy to slot into most teams with little to no consequences.
:Kingler:

Kingler - Kingler and Primeape are your premier offensive options in the tier. base 130 attack is no joke, and surf or hidden power gives it rather good coverage as well. its not that slow as well, so after a SD, other bulky waters can really deal with kingler well. it seemed that people relied on a Weezing or Xatu to stop it, but doing so meant that traded a large portion of of HP.
:Stantler:

Stantler - I don't echo the exact sentiments of estarossa above with it as a S- ranking, but it has seemed to be more understood with higher usage as well. My gut feeling is its high usage has been because of the rather low usage of Primeape and fighting types. But that said its rather fast and bulky, and most annoyingly can have variation to the sets that are all dealt with differently. The combinations of curse rest talk, eq, light screen, thief, hypnosis, normal STAB make it hard to deal with in the builder. The most common set of Curse 2 attacks Light screen (or similar variation) is rather annoying to face as well. I personally think a lot of its strength came from this variability in its sets, as each one has a different approach to stopping.

A Rank
:wigglytuff:

Wigglytuff - bulky normal that has some variability in its set options. Very easy to fit on fatter builds and curse rest talk is always going to be a strong threat to opponents. I have always been pretty high on this mon, and I have quite a few fat teams with it.
:ninetales:

Ninetales - I like Ninetales a lot. I don't know how much I need to elaborate on this mon, most everyone knows its good. Octillery + Xatu + Ninetales is a common core I run on teams that can cover most of the threats in the metagame. the Reflect Flamethrower rest talk set is a really interesting choice, while toxic is almost equally as good. Its a very good defensive choice that can still threaten non water types with a decent STAB flamethrower. Strength is in ease of fitting into teams, bulk, and speed.
:dewgong:

Dewgong - If I am going to use a bulky water as a defensive sponge, Octillery is pretty much better I think. I might be just to high on Octillery at the moment though. Really only used this mon to toy with the encore, toxic, ice beam, protect set as a method to deal with the 2 attack light screen curse Stantler sets. Admittedly, STAB Ice and Water is really good along with better speed than Octillery. I think the biggest drawback to Dewgong is also its Ice typing. Players count on their water slot to deal with a Dugtrio and/or other ground/rocks. Essentially, the better bulk doesn't help you out when it counts. Being ice type makes it to suspectable to rock slide hits and flinches. Although you want to answer Fighting types with Xatu or a Weezing, sometime you gotta use your bulky water to do so. Dewgong being weak to fighting STAB sucks when it should be adding defensive bulk to the team. Still good overall, but harder to fit then Octillery.
:gloom:

Gloom - Also used gloom a lot, but never felt the need to get creative with its move pool. It fits really well alongside Octillery, creating great defensive backbone on teams. I preferred the HP ground as a fourth option so the odd Magnemite can't just sit on it, but there is a ton of variability, such as sleep powder or even Hp ice so Xatu isn't free into it. Hp grass is cool too so Kingler can't use Substitute on it. Its also nice secondary fighting check, but unfortunately not really the pseudo normal check that Weezing offers builders. really good when paired with waters, massive downside is Xatu is pretty much always a free switch on it.
:dugtrio:

Dugtrio - Always a threat and always a potential pain. Screech can be really annoying to deal with. Its fragility and lack of versatility keeps it from being a A+ rank mon personally. It's STAB Eq is strong, but it isn't that strong honestly. I don't think you can throw a Dugtrio in teams as easily. Any good team has good answers to the Dugtrio as well. Regardless though, Dugtrio will always be a threat in the tier.

A- Rank
:chinchou:

Chinchou - I think Octillery is as good as ever, so Chinchou would be as well. Its less splashable then other waters though, but has the benefit of being a free swap into said opposing water types. I personally lean towards always using the 3 attacks set, because Chinchou's bulk sucks and I pair it with octillery more often then not, and would prefer to not have two mons walled by Gloom.
:pineco:

Pineco - You realistically get spikes and a boom out of it. but spikes makes this mon relevant. Reflect sets are nice, and so is toxic. the biggest drawback is not feeling like your wasting a slot in the teambuilder. Pineco really isn't going to do much else.
:sudowoodo:

Sudowoodo - my perception of this year was more normal types then usual. It fits well into most teams and gives builds an explosion option as well. Downside is Octillery abuses it. So yes this mon is good atm even if Stantler learns Eq.
:magnemite:

Magnemite - Strong stab thunder + can come in on Xatu ok-ishly, really good mon. It could be a B ranked mon because its not particularly bulky and relies on its steel typing to survive hits. its also slow, but I think it makes up for it by excellent coverage and power.

B+ Ranking
:magmar:

Magmar - Speed, decent bulk and excellent coverage. considered A rank.
:hitmonlee:

Hitmonlee - Under utilized kinda, has great attack and decent SpDef. Admittedly though, it is hard to justify over Primeape.
:porygon:

Porygon - Hard to kill general sponge, Recover+ Boltbeam + t-wave is all it needs to thrive.
:persian:

Persain - Speed and Hypnosis. Its not bad, but I also prefer bulkier curse options.

B and below Ranking
:fearow:

Fearow - I actually don't like this mon, but its has respectable offensive presence.
:flareon:

Flareon - Baton pass is also underused atm. Flareon can have potential for other uses outside of Baton pass as well
:rapidash:

Rapidash - I haven't figured this mon out, I prefer Magmar as an offensive fire, and Ninetales as a defensive fire usually.
:graveler:

Graveler - Worse Sudowoodo, but nice if you need to spin. STAB Eq is cool though.
:Azumarill:

Azumarill - I think its good for the lightscreen support and excellent bulk, but its passive and can be set up fodder as well
:houndour:

Houndour - Situationally excellent. Has some interesting synergy with things like Gloom, Kingler, and Weezing as well.
:Shuckle:

Shuckle - It's probably much better then I'm aware of. Not sure how to rank tbh.
:dragonair:

Dragonair - Use to be a common lead, seems to have fallen out of favor though. Not sure how to rank tbh.

"The Rest" Ranking
I don't think there is a need to sort the rest into rankings. They can all appear viable in certain builds, and there is plenty of unexplored potential. I admit that most I don't know well enough to even properly rank them. Not a comprehensive listing.
:lickitung:

This is just my 2 cents; feel free to @me with what you think is a blatantly bad take.

MrSoup · Jan 18, 2023

Now that my NUSD run is over and FNH keeps posting cringe despite never playing the tier, I thought I'd post my viability rankings and hopefully encourage more discussion. I had a pretty good tourney so hopefully my opinion means something to someone. Everything is ordered pretty much within tiers.

#1

This thing is still best in tier but not mandatory on every team anymore. Magnemite and houndour usage being higher means xatu-less teams can be good with a poison type and fearow/dug to cover fighting types and weezing.

#2 :Stantler:

This is the premier threat in the builder. It requires 1 or 2 answers on each team for both of its possible sets. If you're ill-equipped for this it WILL win the game. While its answers (explosion, encore, cross chop) are plentiful, with good support Stantler can easily become overwhelming. In many scenarios it will trade for 1 or 2 mons regardless of your prep. This thing is honestly the only mon i might consider unhealthy for the meta strictly because of how you have to build for it.

#3 :Octillery:

This is the most splashable mon in the tier but honestly can find itself getting worn down through status and double-switches with spikes. So much of the tier is also prepped to take it on. Unpredictability in coverage helps it some, but it fights for a spot with the other two water types depending on what your team needs. It still hits unbelievably hard though.

#4 :Pineco:

Spikes are so good in this meta, especially because its easy to keep them up and graveler usage is low. Miracle berry lead makes offense insane.

#5 :Weezing:

This shuts down so many pokemon and makes important trades every time it comes in. Set flexibility is great too. Dug being not as good now helps it out a lot. Most consistent boomer to help open up the game for your threats.

#6 :Dewgong:

Encore is so important with the curse normal types, and toxic is super good with the meta becoming more offensive. I had so many games won with dewgong and it was my most used water type by far. It forces so much and its bulk is crazy. It especially shuts down xatu. I think this may be the third best mon in the tier with time.

#7 :Ninetales:

Probably the third best lead. Its another specially-oriented mon that shuts down xatu and can spread status or even roar. It also can beat dewgong depending on the set. Nothing wants to take a hit from this.

#8 :Persian:

Persian is the most consistent lead in my opinion. If you get the right luck and predictions it can tear through half the opponent's mons. It's also a good late game sweeper with swagger psychup.

#9 :Chinchou:

Chinchou struggles to be the sole water of a team because of its lacking bulk, but it can do so if needed. Honestly stab thunders just hit so hard in this tier and many teams cant switch into it at all.

#10 :Fearow:

This thing is so good. It has its hater(s) but they clearly must not play the tier. I think edge/hpground is the best set. Its speed tier makes it the best late game sweeper. edge 2 shots most unresisted mons and I had so much success with it.

#11 :Wigglytuff:

Cursetalk normals will always be good but tuff has the benefit of set diversity with its special stat. Has its place over stantler on some teams with its better bulk.

#12 :Dugtrio:

This thing is out of meta. Doesn't do so well into xatu in the long run and the waters all give it a rly hard time.

#13 :Sudowoodo:

Boom makes it good. It can kill the opposing water and open up the game for stuff like xatu or kingler.

#14 :Gloom:

Poison that helps against the fighting types and most the waters. However, it has a tendency to get sniped out of the game by rogue coverage or rng because of its passiveness.

#15 :Primeape:

People should use this more. I don't conform to the CEO's preachings but this is so good for breaking especially with thunder. Its accuracy issues and prevalence of weezing make me not like it too much though.

#16 :Magnemite:

Best Xatu counter but can get killed easily because of its poor defenses. Stab thunder goes crazy though.

#17 :Kingler:

This can come in on a surprising amount of stuff, including Dug and tuff because of its high defenses. SD makes it crazy, but it needs the right parasupport and is a little bit of a matchup fish.

#18 :Graveler:

Spin and stab eq are good but it has to fit on just the right team.

#19 :Porygon:

I think this is better than this but I don't have enough experience. Seems weak in a stantler meta.

#20 :Magmar:

Role compresses fire stab with cross chop for normals. Otherwise pretty weak though. Gets overwhelmed and can't switch in.

#21 :Hitmonlee:

Spin is nice but its largely outclasses by ape. Spin gives it a nice niche though.

#22 :Dragonair:

Screens are nice and its a good anti-meta lead.

#23 :Flareon:

BP is super good and no one uses it. Growth passing to waters and xatu should be looked at more.

#24 :Bayleef:

Stall is better than people think imo and bayleef walls most chinchou/oct sets for stall.

#25 :Shuckle:

Stall staple.

#26 :Rapidash:

I can't really comment but just use a different lead tbh.

#27 :Houndour:

Magnemite is usually better. This doesnt add much that mag can't, although pursuit is nice.

#28 :Gastly:

Surprisingly useful against mono normal attackers and hypnosis/thief

#29 :Azumarill:

Screens are always gonna be good if u have a dedicated gameplan

#30 :Lickitung:

I wanted to have 30 mons so here's lickitung

Monai · Jan 18, 2023

Mr FNH has requested I post my VR

S
Father is S tier
S-
I like weezer and spikeywikeys are good
A+
Primeape has surprising set versatility and is an excellent cleaner, nine tail anchors defensive teams very well, kingler kills everything it touches, octillery anchors offensive teams very well, and stantler is snorlax but a deer
A
i stopped ordering the list somewhere around here but lax converted me to duck culture. I don't think anything else here is controversial? idk consensus nowadays
A-
Maybe magmite and persian too low but I tihkn everything here is really good but more niche than A tier. Mr. Soup brought some fucked up sub swagger persian technology into me which made me rethnk my purpose in life.
B+
BP is annoyingly usable if not super cheese. All the other mons are pretty usable but pretty flawed and fit on some more specific stuff from my experience.

Everything I didn't rank is either dogass or ive never seen or both

DiannieRatson · Jan 30, 2023

Even though I'm new to competitive GSC NU, I think it's more of the thoughts that matters more on than me, who has the worst records in these recent GSC PL and NUSD. But in case I can have a say in the VR by being a mere top 6 of GSC NU Cup (which I was just lucky at that time), I made one anyways. Here's how I see the tier.

S Tier

:gs/xatu:

Xatu still owns the tier. At first, I thought Oct can reliably neutralize Xatu. But I was wrong. It can only switch once and spikes guarantees a 2hko if you switch in for a second time. Xatu is a great offensive threat with Psychic having a possible spdef drop and few resist/immune it in the tier. Defensively, it can take on Gloom, a 65% weez or force it to boom, speed ties with primeape while taking less dmg from xchop , and outspeed most of the mons in the tier.

A+ Tier

For octillery, it has decent bulk while having a higher spatk stat than Xatu. Only reliable answer to it is Chinchou because it can use Ice Beam against grass types and HP Elec against other waters. That is why I also think Oct deserves to be in S Tier too...before I saw the stats wherein Pineco has higher usage and there are numerous teams in NUSD that went Octless and chose Dewgong for a stronger Xatu check.

Stantler is kinda broken. Need to guess if it has Hypnosis and Earthquake. Monocurse sets also works and it can also use Light Screen to significantly reduce its damage taken even from against the mighty Xatu and Oct.

Pineco is straightforward. Spikes + Boom makes it A+ Tier period. Because even if Boom doesnt kills, a faster mon can clean it up.

Weezing is a decent answer to oct coz it is faster and if Thunder hits. Can also boom against Xatu if it has enough health. Walls primeape. Also can control curse users with Haze.

A Tier

Fearow is a solid wincon nowadays. Outspeed Xatu. Another reason for Primeape drop in popularity. Hits hard with double edge that even resists like Magnemite and Sudowoodo doesn't want to switch into many times and spikes will worn them out.

Dugtrio is still something to be respected in the builder. It takes 1/3 of Oct's max hp with earthquake. It is also the fastest mon in the tier.

Wigglytuff is also kinda broken if you do not consider Primeape with Cross chop inconsistent accuracy. It also has great bulk so good luck stopping its monocurse resttalk set. Body slam has been a trend to fish paralysis too.

Dewgong is scary ngl. It is a reliable answer to Xatu because of its bulk. STAB Ice beam and can fish for frz. The thing that holds its back is also its ice typing that gives it weakness to fighting, rock, and fire types hit harder against Dewgong than Oct. Both resttalk and its encore toxic protect sets are great.

Persian tends to be a lead because an early hypnosis hit is a good advantage. It is also fast and be reserve later for sweeping.

Chinchou is still that anti-meta mon. Thunder can scare Xatu to not stay into it. STAB Water and Electric despite its base 56 spatk stat is to respected.

A- Tier

Primeape is still a threat because its set is also versatile. Can use moves like Thunder and is also scary if you let it set-up Meditate and behind sub. Cross chop hitting and critting is also clutch.

Kingler is still a must respect mon. Even without para support, it is fast enough to sweep and faster than bulky mons like Weezing and Dewgong. Once it set-up sub + sd, good luck stopping it.

Ninetales speed ties with Fearow with decent bulk and spatk stat. Can go with resttalk set to make it a reliable answer to Xatu in the long term. It can also use toxic and roar as utility moves. Sunny day also helps its matchup against water types while making its flamethrower hit harder. In a meta with a water type like Oct reigning, fire types has a bit tough time but Ninetales is probably the best among the available firetypes in the tier.

Magnemite has a high spatk with base 95 and has electric STAB making its Thunder hit hard. It also has a steel typing to resist many attacks. The thing that holds this mon back is its speed. It is tied with oct so even its match-up against oct may depend on it hitting Thunder and winning the speed tie. It is also a good Xatu answer.

Gloom has a good typing of Grass and Poison type that helps it resist water and fighting moves. It can also use Stun spore to spread paralysis while having a reliable recovery in Moonlight. It can also be a wincon lategame it is has the move Curse to sweep if ever the opposing team lacks a special attacker mon that can surpass the heal of moonlight + leftovers provide. This mon walls hp elec Oct.

Sudowoodo is the normal resist the tier needs. This is also another reason why firetypes is not that popular. Sudowoodo checks a good amount of mons in the tier but sometimes force to boom early because of water types like Oct and can get worn out in the long run especially with spikes.

B+ Tier

Rapidash is faster than Ninetales but is not a reliable Xatu answer. To differentiate itself from other firetypes, it can use hypnosis set as a lead.

Magmar seems underrated because on paper, it looks no one can switch against it safely. Its thunder punch hits harder than Xatu's Psychic against Oct despite it not being able to stay against Oct. Even Ninetales will be scared of its hp ground set. XChop can also be clutch especially as an emergency answer to normals that already has several curse set-up. Magmar's XChop can do 88%minimum on crit against tuff that might have gone out of control. It can also use Thief to steal Oct's lefties which would dissuade Oct more on blanket checking Magmar and its allies.

Houndour sunnybeam set is also decent against Oct and walls HP Ice Xatu. Aside from those, it is slow and can be overwhelmed with neutral attacks and faster mons.

Graveler, the pineco counter. It can spin spikes away and boom while being a fire resist.

Dragonair can spread paralysis and set screens. Its dragon typing also helps it resist common attacks. Can support the likes of Kingler and Baton Pass teams.

Porygon has a reliable recovery and decent bulk and can also spread paralysis and has boltbeam. Who would want to absorb para while taking boltbeam into consideration?

B Tier

Flareon's place in the vr will be based on the position of the growthpass as a playstyle in the tier.

Azumarill can wall a lot of mons but its passiveness can be abuse by mons that can set-up. Azumarill can also use Light Screen to help its allies set-up.

Hitmonlee has a higher atk and spdef stat than primeape but is a bit slower. It also relies on high jump kick. Maybe underrated, maybe not. It is slower than Xatu and Oct can still take 1/3 of Hitmonlee's Max HP with Surf while HJK can't guarantee a 3hko back.

Dunsparce can also spread para but with an unreliable Glare move. Has decent bulk and atk stat. Its just that other normal types are more splashable and been easier to pull off as a wincon like Wigglytuff unlike Dunsparce.

Exeggcute walls dug and uhmmm...that's it? Of course it can also wall hp elec Oct and can scare with Stun Spore and boom.

Shuckle is a staple for stall. It's place here will be determined on how good stall is in NU.

Lickitung is another normal type that might rise up if like Wigglytuff go to UU. Sword Dance is a faster and stronger set-up though than curse so maybe it is just underrated too.

B- Tier

Raticate is faster than Xatu and can scare it with Thunder. Fearow is still faster though.

Pidgeot is a good support to Fearow as esta mentioned already.

Farfetch'd is another mon for bp teams.

Arbok is a poison type like weezing so...weezing also has higher attack stat...weezing can use fire blast against magnemite so why need Arbok's earthquake...Oh it has Glare yeah.

Ledian is another bp mon.

Pupitar is a rock/ground like Graveler. It is a more dedicated attacker with rock and ground stab and screech. Underrated too? Some might even have forgotten or didn't know this mon is NU.

Don't take us from PU/ZU tier
:gs/mantine:

Mantine - let it be in PU and ignore its base 140spdef in base 65hp with 80spatk and good coverage moves. NU also doesn't need much haze or toxic. NU also doesn't need another fire type resist.

Gastly - let it be in PU too since yeah it can wall monocurse resttalk mons. Depending on its moves too, it can be PP stalled just like how Furret does it in PU. It having base 80 speed and 100spatk is also not that special. Yeah please don't take this mon out of PU.

Bayleef - a ZU mon, I repeat, ZU MON, that is here coz of dug and hp elec Oct while being able to set up screens. Better in here than in PU? Nooooo

Tangela - another grass type that has synthesis but packs a 115 base def in 65 base hp while having 100spatk stat. Add double powder too why not. But please let it stay in PU.

Poliwhirl - Belly drum sweeping NU? Unlikely. Xatu is faster...and so those who are faster than Xatu. And magmar is also faster. Base 90 speed is scary for those who uses slower teams. Lovely kiss to help it set up against slower mons or sleep the faster mons switching against it.

Cubone - need Speed but yeah, +2 atk plus agilipass, Cubone can sweep.

Ariados - trap + pass. Another bp mon eh...

Sneasel - another mon that counters Xatu and is as fast as persian. But this is PU now and don't get it back to NU.

Noctowl - do NU need another normal type? A sleeper like Stantler? Need its reflect set while having that bulky base 100hp and base 96spdef?

Seaking - another SD D-Edge user but with STAB Surf...yep. Sudowoodo is 2hkoed by Surf even with leftovers.

Seadra - a faster Oct? Don't take this from PU too (oh wait...actually you can since it's kinda problematic). It is also way less bulky so the trade-off won't necessarily convert to winning. Still slower than Xatu too.

Murkrow - another dark type mon but this is weak to Xatu's HP Ice. Also slower than Xatu. Just want a dark STAB that is faster than Houndour and better spatk than Sneasel? Want Haze again?

Magcargo - definitely no. Don't take this from PU. Taking this will blow up PU xd. Another good monocurse resttalk answer with base spatk80 stab fire blast. Fearow will definitely bring hp ground coz of this mon. Another fire resist and magnemite switch in ig.

Venomoth - double powder with a poison/bug typing anyone?

Tentacool - base 100 spdef ZU mon. Can spin. Yeah this looks meme but why not.

Machoke - uhm...Primeape but slower and use light screen...at least it can use Earthquake which Primeape can't learn.

Kidding aside, some of these mons seem really good or has a niche for NU. I just don't want them to rise coz PU seems need them at the moment.

That's it for my personal VR I guess. Just for now. ALTPL might change some of these again.

BeeOrSomething · Feb 6, 2023

Hey all, I discovered this tier randomly early last year thanks to roa room tours and as I kept winning them when they came on I slowly started to really really like this tier, and now where I am this is one of my absolute favorite tiers and I am even playing it for the torchics in ALTPL! Just wanted to share my VR from what I've played and gathered. Pokemon are ordered within tiers. Btw s/o to dawn for rekindling my passion in this tier with her videos and personal support after a bit of a dry spell in mid-late last year. If you want to read my thoughts on each individual pokemon, then in advance, sorry for the long ass post lmao. Hope you all enjoy!

S+ Rank:

-

King of the tier, and while it has its walls and you can definitely drop it, it's just so integral to the offensive and defensive presence of so, so many teams. Definitely number 1, and deservedly so.

S Rank:

-

Octillery is just fits on so many teams and, similarly to xatu, is an important anchor in the offensive and defensive capabilities alike of all teams it goes on, checking fires and rocks and xatu and even other octillery. However, this pokemon's defensive profile is definitely easier to replicate with things like dewgong and chinchou and such. Despite that, this pokemon is in my opinion close to essential to prevent offense from crumbling to several threats, primarily other octillery, as without it building would be a lot more constricted. And of course throw on that it's so damn strong it's amazing, and all of its non-chinchou checks are just the right coverage move or some spikes away from potentially losing.
- :pineco:

Spikes good. Spin good. Reflect good. Explosion good. Delibird sucks. Checks normals, especially wiggly, and comes in easy on gloom and hitmonlee and helps a lot vs dugtrio, primeape, and kingler. Very solid lead. Need I say more?

A+ Rank:

-

Ultimate trade mon. Near perfect coverage with a strong sludge bomb and thunder + usually fire blast but occasionally hp grass, and of course explosion to top it off, allowing for trades that will cripple an opponent's defensive core or eliminate a powerful offensive threat, and combine with the great physical defense stat and overall defensively useful poison typing, weezing can grab opportunities to come in on something like a primeape cross chop and just start clicking buttons. However, while weezing can come in on things like fearow once or twice, with spikes up, it's really hard to stay alive longer term, and of course weezing hates xatu and, if lacking hp grass (which it usually is), ground types, so the defensive abilities of weezing are unfortunately limited, and offensively, weezing isn’t the fastest and is prediction reliant.
- :stantler:

Broken Deer. On a more serious note, light screen + curse stantler is just so amazing. With a good attack stat, solid speed tier, and the power of a nearly unresisted stab frustration combined with earthquake to hit the few things that do resist it, this pokemon is already quite good. But when you throw on light screen to make killing it with special attackers a lot harder and curse to boost phys def and more importantly skyrocket the attack stat, stantler is able to break massive holes mid game or reverse the tides late game. The hypnosis + thief set and rest talk are also cool but I just think light screen + curse is what makes stantler so threatening.
- :dugtrio:

While admittedly it isn't usually as offensively threatening as it could or used to be, I still believe dugtrio is essential to the composition of many offensive spikes teams in order to combat dangerous threats like weezing and especially magnemite, who, without dugtrio or another much less popular ground like pupitar or graveler, is kind of just able to keep launching thunders that 2 or 3hko every unresisted mon in the tier (I do not consider your own magnemite a "real" check but it's fine enough I guess). And, of course, offensively, dugtrio is still a top revenge killer for things like fire and electric types and weakened neutral targets or flyers, and can clean games up just as great as it always had.
- :fearow:

This thing is actually so strong. Double edge 2 or 3hkos every neutral target and 105 speed is relatively blazing. Even has a surprisingly good amount of longevity with gsc's maxed bulk and rest talk. HP Ground is good but I think drill peck is still overall better for being better while sleeping and more effective into things like gloom and especially pineco. Stonewalled by normal resists without hp ground tho and if using the sub set you have piss poor longevity.

A Rank:

-

Wiggly is omega thick and makes for a great boosting tank capable of spreading paralysis, but has issues with explosion, fighting types, spikes, and normal resists. You can run a coverage move like ice beam or go full mixed, but then you lose out on either the boosting aspect or the tank aspect, which I believe overall weakens wiggly's potential.
- :dewgong:

Gong is actually really good. I was a nonbeliever because I didn't really touch it and octillery was like god himself, but recently I've been using it more and wow it's great. Defensively, dewgong is just kind of an objectively better octillery if you can handle fighting types and potential rock slide flinches, and offensively, while not superb, is definitely no slouch with a solid stab surf and ice beam. While rest talk is the main set I've used, the encore toxic protect set is definitely super cool and should not be trifled with.
- :kingler:

Incredibly strong with swords dance and sits at a very respectable speed tier. With adequate xatu coverage (usually in the form of houndour) and maybe a little paralysis, houndour is a super scary mon that can even take quite a few physical hits thanks to its surprisingly high 115 defense stat, preventing revenge kills from things like stantler and dugtrio if at a decent health. However, its special frailty is just too glaring for kingler to ever be truly dominant imo, and while it still has a solid defense stat, it can be taken down by the handful of faster physical attackers + kingler generally has very limited defensive utility midgame and is even susceptible to magmar.
- :primeape:

Hit or miss, though usually I've hit. Cross chop's high crit rate is omega nice in game for slaughtering normals and being cheesy and winning against things it probably shouldn't be able to. Meditate is always good for boosting, sub is nice on switches, rock slide and thunder both hit flyers with thunder even being able to 2hko xatu, and double edge is a nice neutral move to hit flyers 100% of the time and chunk gloom and weezing. However, while this mon is exceptionally dangerous, it has a litany of issues, primarily gloom and weezing as just mentioned, but also of course the inaccuracy of its strongest moves, general lack of defensive utility, and susceptibility to revenge killing by xatu, dugtrio, fearow, and persian, depending on how healthy primeape is.
- :ninetales:

100% honest I haven't used ninetales a lot due to my propensity for the offensive spikes teams of this tier but I definitely respect how valuable it is on defensive teams, however can't really say much on it though asides from that it's quite good but lets in octillery way too freely. Roar with spikes down does seem quite great though.
- :persian:

One of the best leads in the tier and, to my knowledge, really the only mon that will pretty much always be leading. Great way to start off a game, sleep and/or thief something and click your big double edge, maybe even screech nightmare or thunder if you have it to deal extra damage. Even has an ounce of midgame usefulness with its incredible speed and great stab move. However, as being a decently frail dedicated lead with no resistances or recovery moves, persian has practically 0 in the way of sticking around and also, while at least being able to thief it, kinda lets in magnemite freely, which is never something you want. Hypnosis also has a habit of falling flat and missing or thudding into a sleep talker.

A- Rank:

-

Chinchou comes in 100% freely on octillery, dewgong, azumarill, and ninetales, at least one of which is on a very, very large percentage of teams in the tier, sometimes even 2, and it uses that opportunity for offense, absolutely shallacking more aggressive teams with thunder and surf to hit ground types. In addition, while not a very good answer to these pokemon, if needed chinchou can still threaten out xatu, fearow, magmar, rapidash, pupitar, sudowoodo, and graveler. However, while it has these great traits, chinchou is plagued by its general frailty into neutral hits and letting in mons like wiggly, gloom, hitmonlee, dragonair, stantler, and exeggcute.
- :magnemite:

Probably the single most dangerous special threat in the tier. This mon is unwallable. Thunder 2-3 hits every neutral target, ohkos or comes close to it on every weak target, and has hp ice to smack dugtrio and graveler and do solid damage to gloom, pupitar, dragonair, and exeggcute. Hell, thunder even 3 shots other magnemite. Sure, this mon's special defense is really bad and the speed isn't great, but magnemite pretty easily comes in on xatu, persian, hp ground-less fearow, noctowl, wigglytuff, pidgeot, and, to an extent, pineco and azumarill. The main issues with magnemite are of course its abysmal special defense leaving it 2 or 3hkod by every water move, having no shot at surviving even non stab fire moves, and coming close to being 3hkod by even resisted hits. On the physical side, it doesn't fare much better, coming close to being 3hkod by fearow double edge and ohko'd by the plethora of ground moves. Also, while still 3hko'd, hitmonlee and ninetales can come in, outspeed and one hit kill magnemite, and heal off any potential paralysis. Magnemite also has a helluva lot of variance with thunder accuracy, hp ice thudding into something that can threaten magnemite out, and sleep talk rolls. Overall, very, very dangerous mon with a couple useful defensive traits, but numerous flaws holding it back.
- :sudowoodo:

Very solid normal resist, being able to eat non stab ground moves and even having a decent special defense stat. Rock slide + earthquake backed up by curse is quite good and of course self destruct is amazing. Rest talk sets can also prove to be quite useful, though the loss of boom and curse/eq can be annoying. Main issue with sudowoodo is that it's very prone to being worn down by spikes and eating hits repeatedly, and of course it's frightened to death by octillery and doesn't particularly enjoy dugtrio. Exploding on the opposing octillery can be quite nice for your mons that would otherwise be walled or really annoyed by it, but the opponent could also be looking for exactly that and have a fearow prepared to wreak havoc.
- :magmar:

Magmar is super super dangerous and has a great speed tier, outspeeding stantler and being able to 3hko the bane of all fire types (octillery) with thunder punch. Stab fire blast + thunder punch + cross chop + hp ground/thief make magmar one of the premier wallbreakers in the tier for teams that can fit it. The foremost issue with magmar is general inconsistency, in the form of both prediction reliance and inaccuracy of moves. The latter is relatively easy to explain, as seen with the 85% accuracy of fire blast and 80% accuracy of cross chop. The former meanwhile can often be seen with choosing whether to click fire blast expecting dugtrio to come in or thunder punch expecting octillery to come in. Generally, magmar also has an issue with longevity, as while it can come in on a handful of things, revenge kills quite a bit, and is relatively speedy, it is able to be beaten up by strong physical hits like normal and ground moves and doesn't take neutral special hits the best either. However, magmar has a very high offensive ceiling, and definitely needs to be respected in battle.
- :gloom:

Best wall to the fighters and hp electric octillery, and stun spore is a great way of spreading paralysis. With curse, you can even try for a late game sweep. However, while this mon is annoying, it usually isn't super threatening, with xatu, ice beam octillery, weezing, pineco, fearow, dewgong, magnemite, and every fire scaring it. It can run hp ground, but that means dropping curse, and it still only really hits magnemite and kind of weezing, and usually xatu will probably be coming in anyways. I'm probably making this thing sound real bad but it's an excellent support piece and, if its walls are removed, can do quite well late game.

B+ Rank:

-

Surprisingly great wall to some dangerous special attackers like octillery, chinchou, 3 attacks dragonair, ninetales, azumarill, porygon, dewgong, and, as mentioned earlier, even magnemite. Hitmonlee can also severely threaten sudowoodo, graveler, pupitar, houndour, and the many normal types in this tier. However, hitmonlee has severe issues with xatu, weezing, and gloom, and due to its physical frailty is susceptible to revenge killing from things like fearow, persian, primeape, and dugtrio. Overall, good mon, but with glaring issues and can be hard to fit on teams.
- :flareon:

Growth pass is cracked af. Flareon passing even a single growth boost thanks to screen support from dragonair to a 3 attacks protect dewgong can just bowl over an entire team if they don't have the right mons. Flareon also passes well to xatu, magnemite, and other fire types, and even poses its own threat with a good sp. def stat and stab fire blast at +1 coming off a good base 95 sp. atk. In addition, while less known, a mixed set with fire blast, double edge, hp ground, and protect/roar does surprisingly great damage with spikes and flareon's massive 130 attack stat, the same as kingler. However, flareon has severe issues with physical frailty and not being quite fast enough, leaving it vulnerable to normal types and dugtrio. Flareon and growth pass in general is quite over reliant on screens dragonair to function. These teams are also just by nature hit or miss, and the mixed flare set is tough to fit and struggles with longevity just like growth pass flare.
- :porygon:

Really really annoying to face. Twave + recover + boltbeam with a decent special attack and good enough bulk is quite infuriating to have to play vs because a lot of mons that shrug off paralysis (rest talkers and grounds) are weak to these moves, some of the most popular ones being xatu, dugtrio, and octillery. Unless you have something like hitmonlee, ninetales, or magnemite, I find that I usually have to let something of mine get paralyzed or sacrifice a load of hp with a stronger mon that is weak to electric or ice, and porygon can just recover the damage off anyways. The curse + return set is also quite good but it's much more manageable imo. Main issue is inability to really damage mons that aren't weak to one of ice and electric, and its frailty really only being saved by twave + 32 pp recover.
- :dragonair:

The backbone of growth pass teams and even other forms of bp, dragonair makes great use of its resistances and decent bulk to make an effective lead with dual screens, fire blast, and twave, facilitating a teammate such as flareon to come in and use its boost (growth) and baton pass it out relatively safely. Dragonair can also pose an underrated threat with twave + fire blast + thunder + surf/ice beam to capitalize on its decent special attack and bevy of super effective coverage, however this set can fall flat into mons that aren't weak to any of these moves, like wigglytuff, hitmonlee, ninetales, and chinchou. Dragonair's issue is longevity with lack of recovery move and middling defenses and general passivity asides from twave on the screens set, which is by far the most common.
- :houndour:

Recently I've been down on this mon but it's still fine. As always, it makes an excellent xatu answer with stonewalling its most common set and pursuiting it, and even being able to beat chinchou, dewgong, and octillery with a sunny beam set, making it great support for kingler and fighters. However, asides from these things, and doing the normal fire thing of threatening pineco and the grasses, this thing kinda sucks. It's just so frail physically and can't do anything to stop opposing fire types from coming in and exploiting it.

B Rank:

-

Actually quite good. Freezingpop was cooking when he came up with this. Stronger than dugtrio, especially on the rock moves, and faster than mons like octillery and magnemite. Still 3hko'd by magnemite, but it can come in and scare it out, healing off some of the damage with leftovers. In general, the type combo and stats are very effective to check a variety of things from weezing to fearow to pineco to persian to non-grass move fires to magnemite. You can even fish for a boost with ancient power when given a free turn or when something is in range. Main issue with pupitar is weakness to fighting ground and water moves, and it often results in a more restricted team when it comes to building.
- :graveler:

Pupitar but you sacrifice a lot of speed and special defense for a bit of power, physical defense, rapid spin, and explosion. Graveler often is trying to do too much at once and can often get overwhelmed, but what it provides is quite useful for teams that use it.
- :rapidash:

This mon fell off hard. Combine ninetales and persian but make it worse and you have rapidash. Lets in ninetales and octillery freely, not very good into sudowoodo, and hp grass, double edge, and sunny day is hard to fit all in one set when hypnosis is a large part of why you would use non-talk rapidash. IMO not very good but it can still do things.
- :arbok:

Good para spreader with glare and curse + sludge bomb and eq is good. Bit slow and weak to psychic and ground though. Overall solid but hard to fit and has longevity issues.
- :azumarill:

Really fat defensive pokemon but like just cannot make any form of offensive progress 95% of the time and can be used for setup fodder by things like stantler and kingler. Often, its walling capabilities can just be replicated by other waters like octillery, dewgong, and chinchou. Also issues with sleep talk rolls vs smth like dugtrio. Still ok though. Light screen is good, and it still stonewalls quite a few pokemon, admittedly being a crit magnet though.
- :exeggcute:

Walls grounds, sudowoodo, chinchou, and hp elec octillery and xatu, checks fighters, spreads paralysis, and then explodes. 'Bout it really. Pretty good but hard to fit and usually dies pretty quickly. Also not very good into gloom, fearow, xatu, magnemite, weezing, and fires.

B- Rank:

-

gonna try and go a bit quicker because we're lower down. Good para spreader, normal stab is good, solid curse user, can be annoying to kill. Issues with beating normal resists, handling explosion, fighting types, and heavy competition with other normals.
- :farfetch

sd and agility pass are incredibly dangerous but it's very very hit or miss.
- :noctowl:

really fat specially, solid curse user. Issues with normal resists, especially because it's also weak to their moves, as well as explosion, general non-xatu electric and ice moves, and competition with other normal types, similar to dunsparce.
- :ledian:

Farfetch'd but you give it bulk and swap swords dance for barrier and light screen. Still has agility pass which makes it worth using, but of course it's very very hit or miss.
- :cubone:

Premier partner for farfetch'd and ledian alongside stantler, give this thing an agility and pull off a swords dance and you probably win the game. Pretty much the entire viability of this thing depends on farfetch'd and ledian though.
- :lickitung:

wigglytuff but a little less bulky and it now has swords dance instead of curse. Same old issues with normal resists, explosion, fighting types, and competition, but exacerbated by a bit more because the main thing it's competing with is one of the best mons in the tier.
- :poliwhirl:

Give it a houndour and some paralysis support or an agility pass, sleep something, click belly drum, and go to town. Very hit or miss, super physically frail, heavily relies on team support so if that goes wrong then gg.
- :pidgeot:

Good support for other fliers and generally bulky mon, but usually pretty lackluster in comparison to other better mons.
- :raticate:

Discount fearow but give it super fang and screech. Not bad, but competition and frailty hold this thing back a lot.

C+ Rank:

-

Spider web + agility + baton pass. Pull it off, high likelihood of gg. Don't pull it off, congrats this mon is useless.
- :shuckle:

Ultra passive wall that lets in a lot super freely. Best answer to the majority of physical attackers but its downsides just weigh on it too much imo.
- :seaking:

Swords dance is a good move, and the pure water typing is quite helpful. But I'd say kingler is usually just better with how much stronger it is, and kingler is actually faster + can manage bulk-wise.
- :mantine:

Very cool growth pass recipient with having agility and a good 80 special attack stat (10 whole points more than dewgong), but with how weak it is to hp elec octillery and physical attackers in general and lack of stab on ice beam it has severe issues and usually you're better off using the gonger on growth pass teams.
- :sneasel:

Honestly this thing isn't very good but with screech, a decent attack stat, high speed, good typing, just good enough bulk, and moonlight, it can sometimes do things, but usually you're better off sticking with other pokemon that consistently will do things.

C Rank:

-

Honestly I couldn't tell you why people think this is half decent, like sure it answers dugtrio and the rocks and the non-dewgong waters but that's kinda it. It's just so passive and lets in so much to start setting up or launch strong attacks.
- :gastly:

This mon kinda needs to deal super effective damage to do much and then explode. Sure it can beat mono normals like curse wiggly and dunsparce but it can also kinda just get pp stalled. Add on the myriad of other issues this thing has and it kinda sucks. Also houndour is real.
- :magcargo:

In a perfect world this thing would be good but unfortunately there are just way too many water and ground moves flying around for this thing to shine. If magcargo were to succeed, it would likely be with a curse + rock slide + rest talk set, which is quite cool, but sadly not very good.
- :tangela:

Bayleef but worse but it has thief and sleep powder and stun spore. Much specially frailer though. Both still kinda suck.
- :murkrow:

Take houndour, strip away its fire typing, make it a flying type so that it is now weak to xatu, and make it somehow even frailer.

C- Rank:

All of these are piles of shit that can theoretically do things with their unique traits but just end up failing due to a combination of frailty and being hard outclassed in pretty much every way.

Don't Use This: :gs/delibird:

Alright this one isn't really ordered because all of these are completely and utterly useless and I'm not gonna bother wasting time over whether sunflora is better than drowzee or not. Now, take the status of the C- rank mons. Now make them even worse and even more outclassed. Now amplify that by several magnitudes. Please don't use these or anything below.

Trauma Inducing: :gs/croconaw:

-

Last year cherryb0ng did a smaller gsc tournament involving first playing ou before moving to lower tiers, and I joined in round I think 3 as a substitute. In the second set of games I played, I played vs fluore, and I lost in ou the first game, so I got to choose the tier for the next game, and so I chose nu because I knew it best. My opponent loaded a ZU team vs me, and within the first 5 turns, Fluore's croconaw got 2 ancient power boosts and swept my entire fucking team lmao. Probably the lowlight of my career lol. Anyways yeah this thing is really really really really awful don't use it if you want to win just like the other shits in C- and D tier.

BeeOrSomething · Mar 4, 2023

I was in the process of writing mini explanations for the changes I made from my previous vr (see: post above) but I accidentally clicked the forums button when I was like 80% finished and now they're gone and I don't feel like taking the time to write them again ._. I know it's only been like a month since I made my last one but since then I've played another 4 games of altpl (finished 3-2 in regular season and made playoffs btw so not too bad for myself) and clarified some of my viewpoints and also I don't care.

S Tier
1. :xatu:

Xatu

S- Tier
2. :octillery:

Octillery
3. :pineco:

Pineco

A+ Tier
4. :stantler:

Stantler
5. :fearow:

Fearow
6. :weezing:

Weezing
7. :dugtrio:

Dugtrio

A Tier
8. :dewgong:

Dewgong
9. :persian:

Persian
10. :ninetales:

Ninetales
11. :wigglytuff:

Wigglytuff
12. :primeape:

Primeape
13. :kingler:

Kingler

A- Tier
14. :chinchou:

Chinchou
15. :magnemite:

Magnemite
16. :magmar:

Magmar
17. :hitmonlee:

Hitmonlee
18. :sudowoodo:

Sudowoodo

B+ Tier
19. :flareon:

Flareon
20. :porygon:

Porygon
21. :dragonair:

Dragonair
22. :pupitar:

Pupitar

B Tier
23. :graveler:

Graveler
24. :houndour:

Houndour
25. :exeggcute:

Exeggcute
26. :gloom:

Gloom
27. :arbok:

Arbok
28. :dunsparce:

Dunsparce

B- Tier
29. :raticate:

Raticate
30. :ledian:

Ledian
31. :noctowl:

Noctowl
32. :farfetch

Farfetch’d
33. :cubone:

Cubone
34. :pidgeot:

Pigeot
35. :lickitung:

Lickitung
36. :poliwhirl:

Poliwhirl
37. :azumarill:

Azumarill
38. :rapidash:

Rapidash

C+ Tier
39. :mantine:

Mantine
40. :seaking:

Seaking
41. :shuckle:

Shuckle
42. :Ariados:

Ariados

Sorry for no appearance of my signature, the incredibly and unnecessarily long rambling session I undergo when writing posts like these :)
Hope to play some more gsc nu when NUPL, NUSD, and GSCPL roll around <3

Lower Tiers GSC NU Viability Rankings

Earthworm

Gamer1234556

"Because... Scald is a shit Ferro answer!!!"

dawnbuster

Marowhacked

dawnbuster

dawnbuster

Volk

Demonstrably alive.

Earthworm

Lukee

dawnbuster

cherryb0ng

toaster04

Earthworm

FNH

F is for Finchi, N is for Nator, H is for Hater

dawnbuster

dawnbuster

zf alt 2

Banned deucer.

FNH

F is for Finchi, N is for Nator, H is for Hater

Estarossa

moo?

FNH

F is for Finchi, N is for Nator, H is for Hater

MrSoup

my gf broke up with me again

Monai

DiannieRatson

BeeOrSomething

Daylight Savings Time sucks

BeeOrSomething

Daylight Savings Time sucks

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