MoxieInfinite
Banned deucer.
people be wantin to do suspect tests after having played maybe ~10 games. this isnt oras tiering bro, let stuff develop for a while
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Other Tiers GSC Little Cup [Stadium 2]
- Thread starter skies
- Start date
Typhlito and I have played many more games than just 10, and I myself have played multiple games with many other people. We're just trying to get the metagame as playable as possible early on so we don't have people not wanting to play due to Chansey being in the tier.
Srs tho, I'll happily help out if needed, although I will probably be rlly bad at it (but hopefully that won't matter just so long as it gets off of the ground :]).
edit: Speaking of Chansey (and this is based a lot on theory so take it with a pinch of salt), I could see it having almost as centralising an effect on the meta as Mew would in OU if it were legal, and it wouldn't be too far of a stretch to see it on 9/10 teams. This in conjunction with the Gold Berry makes it very difficult to break through for more specially-oriented teams. I think the main question we need to consider is will it be so overcentralising that it results in teams running 3-4 physical attackers just to ensure that they can beat Chansey reliably, and then that leaves a team hard-walled by something like Koffing. I could see ChanKoff becoming a highly prevalant core that works similarly to SkarmBliss in OU. And this is where the controversies stop and you reallise that Chansey's fate is simply going to come down to weighing out the pros and cons of a metagame with and without Chansey. I think that the discussion thus far has been looking at the issue from the wrong angle, and I think that this is what we need to base discussion around at this point as opposed to flat out questioning whether it is broken or not.
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Minor note: MiracleBerry isn't on PS, but Lum Berry works in GSC there and it's the same thing, so we can just use those unless Joim or someone wants to fix the naming issue. Not really a huge deal either way, but figured I'd mention it since it's one of the few viable items outside of Berry Juice and Thick Club~
Cubone can't be T-Waved so if there's a lot of para spreading going on, it could have the upper hand in terms of turn order.
Can Scyther be countered at all? It may have the superior stats, but its learnpool isn't really that good when you have things like Staryu using Hydro Pump and Houndour using Fire Blast. It gets Wing Attack, and from there it has to choose between HP Bug for a secondary STAB and HP Fighting/Ground/Rock for coverage.
Can Scyther be countered at all? It may have the superior stats, but its learnpool isn't really that good when you have things like Staryu using Hydro Pump and Houndour using Fire Blast. It gets Wing Attack, and from there it has to choose between HP Bug for a secondary STAB and HP Fighting/Ground/Rock for coverage.
I decided to run calcs for a few Pokemon just to see how it did versus top tier (Speed-wise) Pokemon.
Scyther flat out 2HKOes every single Pokemon here, bar Ponyta, or OHKOes at +2. Due to Berry Juice, however, it's a 3HKO. Swords Dance / Wing Attack / Hidden Power Bug / Baton Pass is really all it needed. Onix is hurt by a +2 Hidden Power Bug, and even then Scyther can Baton Pass into Diglett and then take advantage of the Rock-types trying to counter it. So no, Scyther was unable to be countered even with a tiny movepool x_x.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
I'm kinda impressed that wing attack managed to make itself onto a primary moveslot of a pokemon that's considered broken or near enough, like damn that was a 35 BP move.
You're getting it mixed up with gen 1. It is 60 BP as of generation 2.
Don't the mentioned "Top Tier" threats 2HKO Scyther back as well, in a multitude of ways? Bug/Flying is such a poor typing defensively (and would be poor offensively if there were more unevolved steels in GSC).
I don't see much point in comparing Scyther, the leader in speed, to Pokemon just one point of speed below him, when the other side will always be taking the next hit anyway. Magnemite resists all of Wing Attack, HP Bug, Steel Wing and HP Rock (but is weak to HP Fighting). Onix can also Roar Scyther away if he tries passing anything to Diglett or somebody else.
I know Scyther is notorious for having been the LC ban in what seems like every generation, but it had both a bad movepool and a lack of Technician in this generation.
Speaking of which, is Gen 3 Little Cup played at all? I did some research but only found this mesmerising old post from Crystal_.
I don't see much point in comparing Scyther, the leader in speed, to Pokemon just one point of speed below him, when the other side will always be taking the next hit anyway. Magnemite resists all of Wing Attack, HP Bug, Steel Wing and HP Rock (but is weak to HP Fighting). Onix can also Roar Scyther away if he tries passing anything to Diglett or somebody else.
I know Scyther is notorious for having been the LC ban in what seems like every generation, but it had both a bad movepool and a lack of Technician in this generation.
Speaking of which, is Gen 3 Little Cup played at all? I did some research but only found this mesmerising old post from Crystal_.
Disaster Area
formerly Piexplode
yah I never played gen 2 in game :[ I just know it's really low in gens 1 and 3 so I didn't expect it to be as good as that. RIP
ADV LC resources can be found in the LC subforum. There's a few players that like the meta but the playerbase is pretty small. You can usually find a match by asking in the LC room on PS.
Pineco is actually pretty useful due to him being the only spiker in the tier and one of the few rapid spinners, and one of the only things with a boom.
A note for the moveset changes: Everything in the tier get curse except: Weedle, Caterpie, and Magikarp. (Some pokemon in the tier that get curse don't have it in later generations such as Staryu for example.)
I am wondering why diglett isn't in the threatlist too. He has some amazing speed and is a great check to a lot of the offensive threats that inhabit this tier, He is also not that bad of a wallbreaker.
Overall I have found diglett to be a solid offensive pokemon that I think deserves a mention.
Another one to add to the threatlist would have to be Chansey. I could care less whether its the most controversial mon in the tier. It lives pretty mcuh everything that Abra and Houndour can throw at it.
There is one way Houndour can beat chansey is through spikes and Sun boosted Fire Blasts. This is still a very hard way due to berry juice and softboiled. Basically, a Chansey that is played right in this situation can still do a lot of damage to Houndoom through Toxic stalling.
Elekid can actually hit chansey for a 2hko-3hko with Cross Chop which is very nice.
I have found some ways to check Houndour better. The main check I have found would be Tentacool. This pokemon can answer even its sun set if it is SD with Sludge Bomb. (Berry Juice sorta gives you an extra turn.)
For the baton pass users The pokemon that learn BP in the tier are Eevee, Spinarak, and Venonat. Overall you can't have a full team obviously. But you can go for single passing.
I feel Houndour isn't broken enough to the point where it should be banned but it is worth testing it and playing around with it.
I feel Cubone is very strong. I like to consider it a slower-bulkier diglett with scary setup moves. Its speed holds it back from being the best but it is still a very good pokemon for stallbreaking. Reflect Pineco is a decent check to this due to it being able to live anything from it even if it is at +6 and being able to KO it with explosion (If it is not curse)
Pineco is really strong in this tier and has access to one of the most powerful moves in the tier, Explosion. It also is the single pokemon (I think) to have spikes in the tier.
Also, if you really want to run an offensive team I would like to point out that you will most likely like to dedicate a spot to pineco. This is due to its spikes and Explosion. Spikes really allows a lot of pokemon to get 2hko's that were not possible before. Explosion just kills 90% of the tier and can wallbreak.
This is all I have from playing around 25+ games with a friend. I will probably bring another post like this soon hopefully.
I am wondering why diglett isn't in the threatlist too. He has some amazing speed and is a great check to a lot of the offensive threats that inhabit this tier, He is also not that bad of a wallbreaker.
Diglett Earthquake vs. Abra: 15-18 (68.1 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Diglett Earthquake vs. Elekid: 27-32 (112.5 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Diglett Earthquake vs. Houndour: 30-36 (125 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Diglett Earthquake vs. Chansey: 17-21 (38.6 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(vs Chansey 3hko isn't that bad tbh.)
Diglett Earthquake vs. Voltorb: 25-30 (108.6 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Diglett Earthquake vs. Elekid: 27-32 (112.5 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Diglett Earthquake vs. Houndour: 30-36 (125 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Diglett Earthquake vs. Chansey: 17-21 (38.6 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(vs Chansey 3hko isn't that bad tbh.)
Diglett Earthquake vs. Voltorb: 25-30 (108.6 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Overall I have found diglett to be a solid offensive pokemon that I think deserves a mention.
Another one to add to the threatlist would have to be Chansey. I could care less whether its the most controversial mon in the tier. It lives pretty mcuh everything that Abra and Houndour can throw at it.
Houndour Hidden Power Fighting vs. Chansey: 17-20 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Abra Hidden Power Fighting vs. Chansey: 13-16 (29.5 - 36.3%) -- 30% chance to 3HKO
Abra Hidden Power Fighting vs. Chansey: 13-16 (29.5 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes
Houndour Hidden Power Fighting vs. Chansey: 17-20 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Spikes
Abra Hidden Power Fighting vs. Chansey: 13-16 (29.5 - 36.3%) -- 30% chance to 3HKO
Abra Hidden Power Fighting vs. Chansey: 13-16 (29.5 - 36.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Spikes
Houndour Hidden Power Fighting vs. Chansey: 17-20 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- 1.6% chance to 2HKO after Spikes
There is one way Houndour can beat chansey is through spikes and Sun boosted Fire Blasts. This is still a very hard way due to berry juice and softboiled. Basically, a Chansey that is played right in this situation can still do a lot of damage to Houndoom through Toxic stalling.
Elekid can actually hit chansey for a 2hko-3hko with Cross Chop which is very nice.
I have found some ways to check Houndour better. The main check I have found would be Tentacool. This pokemon can answer even its sun set if it is SD with Sludge Bomb. (Berry Juice sorta gives you an extra turn.)
For the baton pass users The pokemon that learn BP in the tier are Eevee, Spinarak, and Venonat. Overall you can't have a full team obviously. But you can go for single passing.
I feel Houndour isn't broken enough to the point where it should be banned but it is worth testing it and playing around with it.
I feel Cubone is very strong. I like to consider it a slower-bulkier diglett with scary setup moves. Its speed holds it back from being the best but it is still a very good pokemon for stallbreaking. Reflect Pineco is a decent check to this due to it being able to live anything from it even if it is at +6 and being able to KO it with explosion (If it is not curse)
Pineco is really strong in this tier and has access to one of the most powerful moves in the tier, Explosion. It also is the single pokemon (I think) to have spikes in the tier.
Also, if you really want to run an offensive team I would like to point out that you will most likely like to dedicate a spot to pineco. This is due to its spikes and Explosion. Spikes really allows a lot of pokemon to get 2hko's that were not possible before. Explosion just kills 90% of the tier and can wallbreak.
This is all I have from playing around 25+ games with a friend. I will probably bring another post like this soon hopefully.
I agree with you about diglett. It has been an excellent revenge killer since many big threats can be taken down with its stab earthquake. Same goes with pineco since it has such good utility but unlike its evolved form, it has no way to deal with ghost types outside of hp ghost making the move pretty much a must in any of his sets.
I will get together with unfixable to get the original post updated and get this going again with all the information you all have given us.
I will get together with unfixable to get the original post updated and get this going again with all the information you all have given us.
Diglett's like Dugtrio in RSE, really frail, but will kill at least one poke.
Also Pineco can deal with gastly with HP dark, but his 35 special attack won't be doin' much to it, but then again, Gastly is as frail as all hell, so it won't matter too much. The damage difference is quite noticeable though.
Pineco Hidden Power Dark vs. Gastly: 102-120 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pineco Hidden Power Ghost vs. Gastly: 146-172 (55.5 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also Pineco can deal with gastly with HP dark, but his 35 special attack won't be doin' much to it, but then again, Gastly is as frail as all hell, so it won't matter too much. The damage difference is quite noticeable though.
Pineco Hidden Power Dark vs. Gastly: 102-120 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Pineco Hidden Power Ghost vs. Gastly: 146-172 (55.5 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Droppin' 3 strong teams that I think are really good. Hopefully We get a sample thread and I will then move them there.
Gastly is an amazing lead. fast sleeper with 17 speed and pretty strong. Added Houndour for a early game breaker or a late game cleaner. Pairng it up with porygon it can break teams fairly easy. Then just 2 fillers and Staryu to paralyze mons to help houndour do it's job easier
A super fast lead being Poliwag. It boasts the fastest Lovely Kiss in the game. Paired with Cubone to dent teams early on. Chansey is our set up sweeper, it's pretty hard to take down after 1 curse. Drowzee spreads para's and doduo helps clean up late game.
Lead Staryu with Lum berry to t wave most leads and try and hax them out of sleeping you. Strong Elekid to hurt slow teams. diglett to check houndour and elekid. Abra checks curse chansey to some extent with encore. Porygon to clean up late game or beat badly prepared teams flat out.
Droppin' 3 strong teams that I think are really good. Hopefully We get a sample thread and I will then move them there.
Gastly @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Hypnosis
- Thunderbolt
- Giga Drain
- Thief
Houndour @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Sunny Day
- Solar Beam
- Fire Blast
- Crunch
Staryu @ Lum Berry
Level: 5
- Thunder Wave
- Rapid Spin
- Surf
- Recover
Machop @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Curse
- Cross Chop
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Earthquake
Elekid @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Thunder
- Cross Chop
- Ice Punch
- Thief
Porygon @ Lum Berry
Level: 5
- Recover
- Sharpen
- Thunder Wave
- Tri Attack
Level: 5
- Hypnosis
- Thunderbolt
- Giga Drain
- Thief
Houndour @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Sunny Day
- Solar Beam
- Fire Blast
- Crunch
Staryu @ Lum Berry
Level: 5
- Thunder Wave
- Rapid Spin
- Surf
- Recover
Machop @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Curse
- Cross Chop
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Earthquake
Elekid @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Thunder
- Cross Chop
- Ice Punch
- Thief
Porygon @ Lum Berry
Level: 5
- Recover
- Sharpen
- Thunder Wave
- Tri Attack
Gastly is an amazing lead. fast sleeper with 17 speed and pretty strong. Added Houndour for a early game breaker or a late game cleaner. Pairng it up with porygon it can break teams fairly easy. Then just 2 fillers and Staryu to paralyze mons to help houndour do it's job easier
Poliwag @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Hypnosis
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
Chansey @ Lum Berry
Level: 5
- Curse
- Soft-Boiled
- Double-Edge
- Shadow Ball
Drowzee @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Thunder Wave
- Light Screen
- Psychic
- Fire Punch
Machop @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Curse
- Cross Chop
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Earthquake
Doduo @ Lum Berry
Level: 5
- Endure
- Drill Peck
- Quick Attack
- Flail
Cubone @ Thick Club
Level: 5
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Rock Slide
Level: 5
- Hypnosis
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psychic
Chansey @ Lum Berry
Level: 5
- Curse
- Soft-Boiled
- Double-Edge
- Shadow Ball
Drowzee @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Thunder Wave
- Light Screen
- Psychic
- Fire Punch
Machop @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Curse
- Cross Chop
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Earthquake
Doduo @ Lum Berry
Level: 5
- Endure
- Drill Peck
- Quick Attack
- Flail
Cubone @ Thick Club
Level: 5
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Rock Slide
A super fast lead being Poliwag. It boasts the fastest Lovely Kiss in the game. Paired with Cubone to dent teams early on. Chansey is our set up sweeper, it's pretty hard to take down after 1 curse. Drowzee spreads para's and doduo helps clean up late game.
Staryu @ Lum Berry
Level: 5
- Surf
- Thunder Wave
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
Elekid @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Thunder
- Cross Chop
- Ice Punch
- Thief
Doduo @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Drill Peck
- Quick Attack
- Steel Wing
- Tri Attack
Diglett @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Ancient Power
- Thief
Abra @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Psychic
- Thunder Punch
- Dynamic Punch
- Encore
Porygon @ Lum Berry
Level: 5
- Agility
- Sharpen
- Tri Attack
- Recover
Level: 5
- Surf
- Thunder Wave
- Rapid Spin
- Recover
Elekid @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Thunder
- Cross Chop
- Ice Punch
- Thief
Doduo @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Drill Peck
- Quick Attack
- Steel Wing
- Tri Attack
Diglett @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Earthquake
- Hidden Power [Bug]
- Ancient Power
- Thief
Abra @ Berry Juice
Level: 5
- Psychic
- Thunder Punch
- Dynamic Punch
- Encore
Porygon @ Lum Berry
Level: 5
- Agility
- Sharpen
- Tri Attack
- Recover
Lead Staryu with Lum berry to t wave most leads and try and hax them out of sleeping you. Strong Elekid to hurt slow teams. diglett to check houndour and elekid. Abra checks curse chansey to some extent with encore. Porygon to clean up late game or beat badly prepared teams flat out.
Droppin' 3 strong teams that I think are really good. Hopefully We get a sample thread and I will then move them there.
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Urrrrrrrrrrgh, so the breeding moves issue is not fully fixed on PS it seems :(
rip i had to change machop's set because of that also. Maybe i'll just change it to petal dance for now.
Took off ice beam since petal dance basically does the same thing but it's not stab.
Edit : seems Ice Punch is compatible so i just threw that on instead
works for me so changing it back until i get more complaints
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Lavos
Banned deucer.
hey can we unban gold berry until further testing actually happens? i think it's ridiculous that in the v2.0 inception of this metagame we're taking such actions based on the opinions of like 3 people. especially when the only reasoning cited amounts to "we think gold berry chansey is busted". imo we need overwhelmingly convincing evidence of that before we even talk about banning the item. furthermore if the only justification for chansey being allowed is that gold berry's all that makes it op, it must be a lot worse than this thread + several games have led me to believe...
scyther i can understand, it 2hkos everything in the tier and that's insane. scyther = deoxys-a. but let's hold off on more bans as a matter of philosophy until the metagame is given time to mature.
scyther i can understand, it 2hkos everything in the tier and that's insane. scyther = deoxys-a. but let's hold off on more bans as a matter of philosophy until the metagame is given time to mature.
I don't think that chansey is necessarily the best anymore as it seems mediocre although it does wall a quite a few things in the tier gold berry or not, I would like to see gold berry put through a little more testing as lavos said. If it's only broken on one mon then why do we just not ban it on said Monday instead of banning it for the entire tier.