this was like 200000 years ago but why was I tagged LOL I thought my position as #1 johto irrational hater was known. I don't think I'd bring much of worth to the discussion
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GSC Ingame Discussion
- Thread starter aegon the unlikely
- Start date
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Clearly I'm a glutton for punishment because I decided to breed a Snorlax with Lick... which requires obtaining a female Snorlax. Eight eggs in and no girls yet... this could take a while. God, how I wish there was a way to cut egg cycles in Gen II.
Luckily, Ecruteak Gym exists. Stick a coin under the 3DS joystick, plug in your charger, and leave it for a couple of hours while your avatar repeatedly steps onto the invisible floor and gets teleported back to the entrance. Works like a charm.
In other news, I tried my hand at cloning on my spare Crystal save file and corrupted three whole boxes! This is exactly why I abhor cloning in Gen II. Luckily the backup save file had nothing particularly valuable on it and I hadn't even gotten the first badge yet, so I was able to start a new save with little cost. I'll hopefully be putting that to use shortly...
Luckily, Ecruteak Gym exists. Stick a coin under the 3DS joystick, plug in your charger, and leave it for a couple of hours while your avatar repeatedly steps onto the invisible floor and gets teleported back to the entrance. Works like a charm.
In other news, I tried my hand at cloning on my spare Crystal save file and corrupted three whole boxes! This is exactly why I abhor cloning in Gen II. Luckily the backup save file had nothing particularly valuable on it and I hadn't even gotten the first badge yet, so I was able to start a new save with little cost. I'll hopefully be putting that to use shortly...
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Gonna revive this and do some reviews of the route themes, specifically comparing them to their HGSS counterparts.
Route 29
Routes 30-33
Route 34-37, 40/41 & 45/46
Route 38/39
Route 42-44 & Lake of Rage
Route 29
GSC version
A lively, upbeat sort of tune which contrasts well with the sleepiness of New Bark Town. It's actually quite reminiscent of RBY's Route 1 now that I consider it, but while Route 1 in Kanto sounds more jovial and gentle, Route 29 sounds wilder and more adventurous. Part of me wonders if the bluntness of the GBC's soundfont means that they'd have made this sound slightly different if they could but I'm more inclined to think probably not; it's a great marching tune which starts you off on your journey feeling pumped up and ready for whatever's out there. Amusingly, if you play this at 0.75 speed it does sound vaguely like the remake version.
HGSS version
This doesn't even try to reproduce the GSC version, instead going completely for its own style. And - I should emphasize at the outset - that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it's fine to go for something completely different. Whereas the GSC one sounded faster and occasionally harsher, the lighter touches here make this reminiscent of a nursery theme; at times it puts me in mind of something you'd expect to hear when meeting Baby Mario or something. It's much more whimsical and jolly; some might not like it because tempo-wise, it's all over the place, but the little trills and pauses are weirdly nostalgic despite not having been in the original tracks, and put me in mind of seeing a rustling bush with a Pokemon hiding under it.
A lively, upbeat sort of tune which contrasts well with the sleepiness of New Bark Town. It's actually quite reminiscent of RBY's Route 1 now that I consider it, but while Route 1 in Kanto sounds more jovial and gentle, Route 29 sounds wilder and more adventurous. Part of me wonders if the bluntness of the GBC's soundfont means that they'd have made this sound slightly different if they could but I'm more inclined to think probably not; it's a great marching tune which starts you off on your journey feeling pumped up and ready for whatever's out there. Amusingly, if you play this at 0.75 speed it does sound vaguely like the remake version.
HGSS version
This doesn't even try to reproduce the GSC version, instead going completely for its own style. And - I should emphasize at the outset - that's not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes it's fine to go for something completely different. Whereas the GSC one sounded faster and occasionally harsher, the lighter touches here make this reminiscent of a nursery theme; at times it puts me in mind of something you'd expect to hear when meeting Baby Mario or something. It's much more whimsical and jolly; some might not like it because tempo-wise, it's all over the place, but the little trills and pauses are weirdly nostalgic despite not having been in the original tracks, and put me in mind of seeing a rustling bush with a Pokemon hiding under it.
Routes 30-33
GSC version
When I hear this track, what comes to mind is always a gentle but vigorous morning stroll in the countryside. The discordancy of the marching theme combined with the crackling, almost buzzing swoosh sounds in the background puts me in mind of rustling trees and grass, giving the impression that this track is brimming with nature. And yet despite its energy this track almost sounds slightly melancholic in places, which reinforces that you're on the first stages of a journey and anything could happen. The fact that it's used for so many parts of Johto ties these different routes together, giving them a shared identity which makes this particular chunk of the region feel unified. Later games can take advantage of the larger memory capabilities to give each route their own sound, but GSC's approach shows that you don't have to do that as long as you make the few songs you do have count. For an early-game theme this is a surprisingly complex and intricate track, but it succeeds. Top-tier route theme IMO.
HGSS version
This, again, goes its own way. There are lots of little moments in this track which almost recall the original but it's higher, grander, more confident. The improved soundfont means that more instruments come into play; the trumpets give the track a more grandiose and overbearing tone, while the central theme has this spiralling, whimsical motif which makes it feel fun and optimistic.
And yet it's somehow just so unmemorable. Bright and shiny as a whistle, it's squeaky-clean. There's none of the depth or keenness the original has and it's underwhelming to hear them side by side. While it's not a bad track per se, it's just so at-odds with the original that they might as well be different places.
When I hear this track, what comes to mind is always a gentle but vigorous morning stroll in the countryside. The discordancy of the marching theme combined with the crackling, almost buzzing swoosh sounds in the background puts me in mind of rustling trees and grass, giving the impression that this track is brimming with nature. And yet despite its energy this track almost sounds slightly melancholic in places, which reinforces that you're on the first stages of a journey and anything could happen. The fact that it's used for so many parts of Johto ties these different routes together, giving them a shared identity which makes this particular chunk of the region feel unified. Later games can take advantage of the larger memory capabilities to give each route their own sound, but GSC's approach shows that you don't have to do that as long as you make the few songs you do have count. For an early-game theme this is a surprisingly complex and intricate track, but it succeeds. Top-tier route theme IMO.
HGSS version
This, again, goes its own way. There are lots of little moments in this track which almost recall the original but it's higher, grander, more confident. The improved soundfont means that more instruments come into play; the trumpets give the track a more grandiose and overbearing tone, while the central theme has this spiralling, whimsical motif which makes it feel fun and optimistic.
And yet it's somehow just so unmemorable. Bright and shiny as a whistle, it's squeaky-clean. There's none of the depth or keenness the original has and it's underwhelming to hear them side by side. While it's not a bad track per se, it's just so at-odds with the original that they might as well be different places.
Route 34-37, 40/41 & 45/46
GSC version
A bright, cheerful, upbeat stroll through the Johto region. Since this track serves so many areas, it really is the quintessential wild Johto track. It's sunny and bold and ultimately fun; by this point, the player is more confident, and there's no reason to fear the vast wildness of the Johto region, whether it be the rocky sea between Cianwood and Olivine, the mountain tracks south of Blackthorn, or the thoroughly tame routes surrounding the vastness of Goldenrod City. Though this, like the previous track, has a slightly melancholic tinge as it goes on, it's not sad-sounding. Rather, it's the sort of tune that makes one want to breathe deep and reflect that adventures are a pretty fine thing.
HGSS version
The first route theme that truly captures the exuberance of the original. All of HGSS's route themes thus far have been bright and clear and chiming with joy, but this is the first one that feels completely right. The cheerful strides and lingering ringing notes perfectly capture the mood of the routes it plays on, painting an image of a region which is wild and colourful and wide open to be explored. There's not much to find fault with here; it's a sparky tune which, for once, doesn't try to put its own spin on things and just echoes its predecessor.
A bright, cheerful, upbeat stroll through the Johto region. Since this track serves so many areas, it really is the quintessential wild Johto track. It's sunny and bold and ultimately fun; by this point, the player is more confident, and there's no reason to fear the vast wildness of the Johto region, whether it be the rocky sea between Cianwood and Olivine, the mountain tracks south of Blackthorn, or the thoroughly tame routes surrounding the vastness of Goldenrod City. Though this, like the previous track, has a slightly melancholic tinge as it goes on, it's not sad-sounding. Rather, it's the sort of tune that makes one want to breathe deep and reflect that adventures are a pretty fine thing.
HGSS version
The first route theme that truly captures the exuberance of the original. All of HGSS's route themes thus far have been bright and clear and chiming with joy, but this is the first one that feels completely right. The cheerful strides and lingering ringing notes perfectly capture the mood of the routes it plays on, painting an image of a region which is wild and colourful and wide open to be explored. There's not much to find fault with here; it's a sparky tune which, for once, doesn't try to put its own spin on things and just echoes its predecessor.
Route 38/39
GSC version
After the upbeat tones of the previous routes comes this one. Deeper and bolder than the other areas in the game, Route 38 and 39 sound more mature, with a marching, strident tone conveyed by the crisp, harsh drums that play throughout. You're left in no doubt that this is a new sort of area, and indeed it is - teeming with Sailors, full of Miltank and Tauros, leading to the port of Olivine, this corner of Johto is a different vibe than where we've been before. There's a promise of adventure in this song, but it's a different kind than before. Fun fact, Pokemon Go's night music is apparently based off of this tune.
HGSS version
This pulls no punches. Right from the off it hits you with a deep opening note, and the deep, dark marching beat comes in. It could have easily been higher and lighter than the original, and it does veer that way in parts, but overall it maintains the mood of this route perfectly. The little light elements here and there add a hopeful touch, but this actually works really well. One of the better tracks from HGSS, this tune is the first route theme that I think clearly improves on the original.
After the upbeat tones of the previous routes comes this one. Deeper and bolder than the other areas in the game, Route 38 and 39 sound more mature, with a marching, strident tone conveyed by the crisp, harsh drums that play throughout. You're left in no doubt that this is a new sort of area, and indeed it is - teeming with Sailors, full of Miltank and Tauros, leading to the port of Olivine, this corner of Johto is a different vibe than where we've been before. There's a promise of adventure in this song, but it's a different kind than before. Fun fact, Pokemon Go's night music is apparently based off of this tune.
HGSS version
This pulls no punches. Right from the off it hits you with a deep opening note, and the deep, dark marching beat comes in. It could have easily been higher and lighter than the original, and it does veer that way in parts, but overall it maintains the mood of this route perfectly. The little light elements here and there add a hopeful touch, but this actually works really well. One of the better tracks from HGSS, this tune is the first route theme that I think clearly improves on the original.
Route 42-44 & Lake of Rage
GSC version
Just like Route 38's track does, this conveys to you instantly that you've arrived in another part of Johto - wilder, more natural, and untamed than any of the others. The sense of excitement and unknown this track conjures is borderline spellbinding - the drawn-out chords and the bright, piercing notes that come in afterwards combine to create a sense of expectancy and wildness. The stark harshness of the mountain paths around Mahogany Town and the rustic wilderness of the Lake of Rage are conveyed perfectly in this track - it really brings home how unlike the other areas of Johto they are. I feel that this track is highly underrated.
HGSS version
No word but "excellent" comes to mind here. Clearer and more beautiful, with a loop that's used excellently, this track reproduces the essence of the original while adding a new feel. While the sense of wild adventure is still present, the soaring melody makes it feel rich and deep and more heroic. After the butchered version FRLG gave us, HGSS's version is a delight to listen to. Without a doubt the best route theme in that game.
Just like Route 38's track does, this conveys to you instantly that you've arrived in another part of Johto - wilder, more natural, and untamed than any of the others. The sense of excitement and unknown this track conjures is borderline spellbinding - the drawn-out chords and the bright, piercing notes that come in afterwards combine to create a sense of expectancy and wildness. The stark harshness of the mountain paths around Mahogany Town and the rustic wilderness of the Lake of Rage are conveyed perfectly in this track - it really brings home how unlike the other areas of Johto they are. I feel that this track is highly underrated.
HGSS version
No word but "excellent" comes to mind here. Clearer and more beautiful, with a loop that's used excellently, this track reproduces the essence of the original while adding a new feel. While the sense of wild adventure is still present, the soaring melody makes it feel rich and deep and more heroic. After the butchered version FRLG gave us, HGSS's version is a delight to listen to. Without a doubt the best route theme in that game.
What really surprised me about these games was the realization that almost every single route has something interesting on it and most of them do not require venturing into tall grass. You have locations such as Dark Cave, Ruins of Alph, Daycare, National Park, Momoo Farm and Mt. Mortar right near/on the roads and you can dash to them without the need of repels. Even towns have lots of interesting areas to explore. Violet has Bellsprout Tower. Azalea has Slowpoke Well. Goldenrod has its underground. Ecruteak has two towers. Olivine has its lighthouse. Blackthorn has Dragon's Den. GSC also started the trend of making each town more unique by changing architecture in every settlement.
Johto is small but it uses its space extremely well.
HGSS might be my favorite main series games with wonderful aesthetics, but I'm still a sucker for classic GSC aesthetics as well. The Gen 2 hacks that I've played that add things like the P/S split (like Prism) have been a treat. Good aesthetics and gameplay.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
So this is kind of obsolete given the VC rerelease's tweak, but Youtuber Birby100 has created a way to manipulate the original Crystal using Pokemon Stadium to unlock the GS Ball event.
Potentially of use for those who still have those games - sadly I never had Pokemon Stadium and my original Crystal cart is long dead, so it's the VC or nothing for me, unless I eventually choose to emulate online.
Potentially of use for those who still have those games - sadly I never had Pokemon Stadium and my original Crystal cart is long dead, so it's the VC or nothing for me, unless I eventually choose to emulate online.
Yeah, I only know about this because I will try random actions in my old Gameboy back then.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Necro-ing this thread in joy because I've finally gotten around to catching the final Unown form I hadn't yet tracked down - T. Used a different save file to narrow the odds by only unlocking the relevant puzzle (the bottom-right puzzle releases the S-W forms into the ruins) and it didn't take too long to find.
So now that's my copy of Crystal absolutely, utterly complete as far as I'm aware! Nothing left to accomplish. What reward do I get for catching all 26 Unown...?
...oh. I get to use the printer. Which of course in the VC version does absolutely nothing. The only other unlockable is that two boys appear in the ruins: one says "there are lots of different kinds of Unown! We use them to send messages to each other" and the other is in the process of reading one of them: "A-H-E-A-D... hmm... what? I'm decoding this message!" Don't think there are any others. I checked all the computers in the lab to see if I'd get some extra information, forgetting that Professor Silktree is only mentioned in HGSS. And of course the ! and ? forms don't exist yet.
So yeah, I think that's it.
So now that's my copy of Crystal absolutely, utterly complete as far as I'm aware! Nothing left to accomplish. What reward do I get for catching all 26 Unown...?
...oh. I get to use the printer. Which of course in the VC version does absolutely nothing. The only other unlockable is that two boys appear in the ruins: one says "there are lots of different kinds of Unown! We use them to send messages to each other" and the other is in the process of reading one of them: "A-H-E-A-D... hmm... what? I'm decoding this message!" Don't think there are any others. I checked all the computers in the lab to see if I'd get some extra information, forgetting that Professor Silktree is only mentioned in HGSS. And of course the ! and ? forms don't exist yet.
So yeah, I think that's it.
You know what? I also like the Johto games despite their heavily flawed downsides, and while I'm much more experienced with the remakes overall, there's all sorts of GSC mechanics and features that I absolutely love that I wish we could see again in future Pokémon games.
- Shiny Mechanics: Here's a controversial take for you guys. I think Shiny Pokémon are generally ruined by the transitions in mechanics introduced in every generation from Ruby & Sapphire onwards. It's gotten to the point where boosted odds and overworld Shinies significantly decreases the amount of sentimental value that the memories of finding a Shiny in the wild can bring to the table. I'm not saying that I don't support the existence of Shiny hunting methods, however, and that's because GSC in particular has a method that no other generation has. Shiny Pokémon being based off of IVs/DVs in this generation creates a very interesting mechanic involving Pokémon breeding that not only boosts your Shiny odds significantly, but helps provide an in-universe explanation of how Shiny Pokémon genetics works. The game was even nice enough to add a sort of "tutorial Shiny" in the form of the Red Gyarados, which can be used for breeding trees for this method if it is male.
- Stat Experience: In newer Pokémon games after Gens 1 & 2, EVs were introduced and can be tinkered with to help Pokémon gain proficiency in specific stats. Natures were also introduced which can provide a 10% increase to one stat and a 10% decrease to another, excluding HP. This was not the case originally, and Pokémon could have all of their stats including HP maxed out given enough training and patience. I wouldn't have a problem with either EVs or Natures if only one of the two existed in newer games, but "stat experience" being abandoned in favor of both of these creates way too many guessing games in my opinion, and in the case of Natures, can even punish beginner-level players who don't want to grind for a good Nature on a specific Pokémon through no fault of their own. GSC were the last games in the series where this wasn't an issue.
- The Time Capsule: The Generation 2 installments of Johto specifically have a feature that experienced GSC fans will likely remember that, much like IVs/DVs and Shiny breeding, provides an in-universe explanation of how Pokémon can be transferred to these games from the original Kanto installments. The so-called "Time Capsule" enables infinitely more possibilities for both generations of games, unlike modern Pokémon transferring which can only be operated one-way towards a newer game. Competitive formats may have their own opinions on what's okay to utilize and what's not, but from a casual perspective, more options for the player is almost never a bad thing should the player have access to the materials to make those options a reality.
gumnas
formerly .Maguss.
The Red Gyarados in the Lake of Rage is always male. It has a pre-defined set of DVs, and gender in Gen 2 is also defined by DVs (the Attack DV, specifically).
I knew about the other DVs outside of Attack, but I actually didn't know it was hard-coded this way. I guess even Game Freak had the foresight to allow the tutorial Shiny to be used for the breeding method... otherwise the only one you could get would be a bunch of Magikarp. :)
Really nostalgic for Gen II. I can actually remember playing it, unlike Gen I, and I obtained my first Level 100 in Gold. I remember it was a Dragonite with a moveset of Fly, Thunder, Blizzard, and Hyper Beam. Gen II Hyper Beam's animation + sound effect combo is the GOAT btw.
Such a shame Johto is a massive slog to replay between the ass level curve and limited team options. Still dig the GBC aesthetic tho.
Such a shame Johto is a massive slog to replay between the ass level curve and limited team options. Still dig the GBC aesthetic tho.
It was one of my favorite gens in the past. Even know I enjoy it more than most of the other gens. The fun discovery of new Pokemon, Pokemon being able to use new moves and then shiny Pokemon as well as the concept of Baby Pokemon were really intriguing. Some didn't age too well.
You can get through the game without encountering a single legendary Pokemon, minus Crystal, where the game just teased you with Ho-Oh and Lugia on the cover.
My favorite feature was with the Gameboy Color's intrared sensor where you could get Mystery Gifts. But the main appeal for me were not the items, but what happens when you do that with a friend. You are able to battle the team of your friend for some EXP and Pokedex entries. We used to make gym themed teams every day for the other to challenge it. It was fun.
I think I even made a Team Rocket themed one with Meowth, Arbok, Weezing, Victreebel, Wobofeet (can't spell it), Licketung.
Celebi was the only Pokemon I could never obtain and it annoyed me to no end.
i still enjoy it especially it has compatibility with my favorite Pokemon game: Pokemon Stadium 2.
You can get through the game without encountering a single legendary Pokemon, minus Crystal, where the game just teased you with Ho-Oh and Lugia on the cover.
My favorite feature was with the Gameboy Color's intrared sensor where you could get Mystery Gifts. But the main appeal for me were not the items, but what happens when you do that with a friend. You are able to battle the team of your friend for some EXP and Pokedex entries. We used to make gym themed teams every day for the other to challenge it. It was fun.
I think I even made a Team Rocket themed one with Meowth, Arbok, Weezing, Victreebel, Wobofeet (can't spell it), Licketung.
Celebi was the only Pokemon I could never obtain and it annoyed me to no end.
i still enjoy it especially it has compatibility with my favorite Pokemon game: Pokemon Stadium 2.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
I had nothing to do work-wise today except wait for other people to respond to emails, so naturally enough I got bored.
Some time ago I was messing around with the maps for GSC and RBY and created full world maps for both, filling in the blanks between routes and adding some areas, as well as making three separate maps showing what the Sevii Islands might look like had they appeared in GSC. Having recently switched laptops and transferred over a ton of old files these came to my attention and I decided to play around with Johto's in-game map again.
This time around, I decided it'd be fun to tweak it slightly to reflect more realistic proportions. There's no space for Ilex Forest on the in-game maps (the area between Azalea and Route 34 is literally about three tiles, and National Park is far, far bigger than the external area on Route 35) so I wanted to see whether these could actually fit onto the maps.
I started with Ilex Forest and found a version of the map that recolours it in a way that makes it stand out less from the rest of the game world (since I couldn't find full nighttime versions of every route and city). Placing it between Route 34 and Azalea displaces Azalea Town but, since the corresponding area on the same latitude is where Union Cave would be, you can simply extend the cave tiles to make a full-sized cave and keep things consistent. Surprisingly, Union Cave 1F is actually much smaller than expected, so it's not 1-1, but since most of the caves are far bigger than their exteriors portray, it's a nice change of pace to have one where the exterior is oversized instead. I tweaked Route 34 ever so slightly so that the hidden beach area doesn't encroach right onto the western side of the forest.
The next area I tackled was the Ruins of Alph. This area also has a slight incongruity with the surrounding areas - it doesn't fit perfectly into the space between Violet City, Route 36, and Route 32. Making things fit only required a small addition of a couple of tiles on the connecting routes - quite happy with that, because it's unobtrusive enough to be barely noticeable.
Sadly National Park just doesn't fit. You could extend the passage between Route 35 and 36 and widen Route 35 slightly, but it wouldn't be quite enough to make it work without a really obvious distortion, and I'm going for as minimal a redesign as possible.
Might carry on with this, see what else I can add. I've added in most of the overworld changes from Crystal - the redesigned Lighthouse, Burned Tower, and Goldenrod City (complete with Pokecom Centre just for fun) as well as the extra grass on Route 36. It's obviously unfinished and still needs some work (the full GSC map I found had plain blue water instead of the "sparkly"-looking tileset). Cianwood City still needs changing but I haven't found a full version of it that's consistent with the connecting route. Might just have to add that in manually.
View attachment Johto w. ruins of alph and ilex forest fitted-min.jpg
Some time ago I was messing around with the maps for GSC and RBY and created full world maps for both, filling in the blanks between routes and adding some areas, as well as making three separate maps showing what the Sevii Islands might look like had they appeared in GSC. Having recently switched laptops and transferred over a ton of old files these came to my attention and I decided to play around with Johto's in-game map again.
This time around, I decided it'd be fun to tweak it slightly to reflect more realistic proportions. There's no space for Ilex Forest on the in-game maps (the area between Azalea and Route 34 is literally about three tiles, and National Park is far, far bigger than the external area on Route 35) so I wanted to see whether these could actually fit onto the maps.
I started with Ilex Forest and found a version of the map that recolours it in a way that makes it stand out less from the rest of the game world (since I couldn't find full nighttime versions of every route and city). Placing it between Route 34 and Azalea displaces Azalea Town but, since the corresponding area on the same latitude is where Union Cave would be, you can simply extend the cave tiles to make a full-sized cave and keep things consistent. Surprisingly, Union Cave 1F is actually much smaller than expected, so it's not 1-1, but since most of the caves are far bigger than their exteriors portray, it's a nice change of pace to have one where the exterior is oversized instead. I tweaked Route 34 ever so slightly so that the hidden beach area doesn't encroach right onto the western side of the forest.
The next area I tackled was the Ruins of Alph. This area also has a slight incongruity with the surrounding areas - it doesn't fit perfectly into the space between Violet City, Route 36, and Route 32. Making things fit only required a small addition of a couple of tiles on the connecting routes - quite happy with that, because it's unobtrusive enough to be barely noticeable.
Sadly National Park just doesn't fit. You could extend the passage between Route 35 and 36 and widen Route 35 slightly, but it wouldn't be quite enough to make it work without a really obvious distortion, and I'm going for as minimal a redesign as possible.
Might carry on with this, see what else I can add. I've added in most of the overworld changes from Crystal - the redesigned Lighthouse, Burned Tower, and Goldenrod City (complete with Pokecom Centre just for fun) as well as the extra grass on Route 36. It's obviously unfinished and still needs some work (the full GSC map I found had plain blue water instead of the "sparkly"-looking tileset). Cianwood City still needs changing but I haven't found a full version of it that's consistent with the connecting route. Might just have to add that in manually.
View attachment Johto w. ruins of alph and ilex forest fitted-min.jpg
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This recent article on Gen 2's Mystery Gift pointed out the discovery that the Stadium 2-exclusive Pikachu Bed, Tentacool Doll, and Unown Doll room decorations are actually completely unobtainable even from Stadium 2 itself. The Pikachu Bed and Tentacool Doll are intended to be super rare (with Pikachu Bed being locked behind clearing Round 1) with the lowest odds, and it turns out that Stadium 2 only has 256 RNG seeds for Mystery Gift that follow a cyclic pattern where there is no sequence of numbers that allow you to obtain them, while the Unown Doll isn't even in the Mystery Gift item pool and has unfinished dialogue.
https://bluemoonfalls.com/pages/general/mystery-gift
https://projectpokemon.org/home/forums/topic/63867-pokemon-stadium-2-mystery-gift-mechanisms/
This also reminded me of how the Phantom Venusaur card in the Game Boy TCG game was also found to be unobtainable in practice in a similar situation.
https://bluemoonfalls.com/pages/general/mystery-gift
https://projectpokemon.org/home/forums/topic/63867-pokemon-stadium-2-mystery-gift-mechanisms/
This also reminded me of how the Phantom Venusaur card in the Game Boy TCG game was also found to be unobtainable in practice in a similar situation.
I've been recently getting back into my first proper playthrough of Pokémon Crystal on 3DS VC, something I had been putting off for a long time since I grew up with the remakes and generally never had much of a reason to try out the Gen 2 games not counting, say, Past Gens on Pokémon Showdown or whatnot. What I'm finding more and more is that it's less about the fact I grew up with the DS remakes, and more of the fact that I just find sometjing about the Johto games incredibly charming. Poor level curves? Sure. Whack Pokémon distribution? Maybe, but it's really not that bad. Playing Johto in a game with no random Natures and the lack of an EV limit is something I particularly enjoy, too. The region itself though just has this sense of simplicity that I miss from a lot of the other regions.
Good luck with the playthrough. I respect going back to see the start of it all, as I feel like it's the edge of an era that newer fans are less inclined to go back to. I'm kind of in the opposite boat to you where I started off with the Game Boy games on emulator as a kid, and then eventually got to play HGSS as my first physical game after the fact, so I experienced things like Cyndaquil learning Ember slightly earlier and Togepi having Extrasensory that still stick out to me, mostly because I would keep getting stuck and replaying the first parts of the game, but I think I at least hit the Elite Four at some point and did get around to finishing the game when I knew more about mons.
I think that last piece sums up why I keep coming back to Gen 2 to me, with how easy it is to get in the game and start playing, and having the opportunity for different experiences depending on what time you play in, as a sort of real world investment. I feel like Gen 2 still makes for a good intro and replayable game with its fast start to getting a Pokemon and quick explanations of mechanics (remember Gen 2 letting you skip the catching tutorial), and the simplicity of being able to make your way in the world, even without knowing all the mechanics and spawn locations at first.
This also reminds me of a segment in Did You Know Gaming's recent video on Gen 2's development and myths. Among other things it briefly mentions how GS was simplified because of Ken Sugimori's dad not being able to leave the house in Gen 1, in ways like adding descriptions for each menu item and adding the Select shortcut for key items. In ways Gen 2 really added a lot of QOL to the shaky foundations of Gen 1 that we take for granted nowadays, like letting you see move and item descriptions, and letting you Move Pokemon freely between boxes. This all ties into something I've been thinking about lately over the year, mainly because of trying to lay out why I appreciate Gen 2 on the official Pokemon forums.
Something I've been thinking about lately (and occasionally mentioned on the Pokemon forums) is about how innovative Gen 2 was for its time with the features it introduced, and how it carried the weight of being a sequel to a worldwide hit game and improved on the flaws of the original to successfully set the standard and define the direction for the future of Pokemon to follow. With all the beloved mechanics it has introduced, I feel to a degree that the gameplay and ideas of Gen 1 are farther removed from Gen 2 than going from Gen 2 to the present day of Gen 9, despite their surface similarities. For example, Gen 2 makes improvements to Gen 1's battle mechanics that feel experimental and foreign to modern standards, like high crit chances being tied to base Speed, only having a single Special stat, and all the turn denial like the original Sleep, Freeze, and wrapping moves that were immediately being revised.
Of course, Gen 2's campaign battles also feel a lot more engaging when the AI goes from having 7 simple rules and being easily tricked into spamming Agility, to almost 100 different routines to try encourage specific strategies in certain scenarios, (detailed in pimanrules's AI tournament video shown below). It also helps that they started giving enemies more customized movesets instead of everything basically using raw levelup learnsets. (The only custom movesets in RB were defined sparsely in a very hardcoded manner. Gym leaders and E4 only got to define 1 move each, while the final rival was given Sky Attack on Pidgeot and a TM for his starter. By the time of Yellow they did end up making a better system for custom enemy movesets, but Gen 2 was being developed about the same time anyway.)
Since the anniversary of GS's releases passed by recently (October 15 in NA) and are coming up in a month (November 21 in Japan), I may write some further thoughts about how the legacy of Gen 2's design decisions have made a lasting impact over time to the present day, pointing out each of the features that it pioneered. I feel that this success story is especially notable in hindsight with the context of how the final Masuda-directed product ended up being different to the original vision of the Spaceworld 1997 beta in many ways, but some advancements from Gen 1 still date back to that era like the ideas of 2 new types and shinies.
I had lots of thoughts going around, so I figured it was time to start embracing destiny and start with some reflections on Gen 2's features and the legacy it left on Pokemon. I don't know how long or how frequently this may go on for, but I think there is a lot to say about how the second generation cleaned up the messy canvas of Gen 1 and turned it into a solid foundation that the future has continued to build on. For the prime example of Gen 2's influence to this day, I want to start with one of the most important features to most RPGs, the inventory system.
The humble Bag has been key to the series from the start, being present everywhere from the START menu to having its own dedicated option in battle, and enabling most interactions in the game. However, the original bag of Gen 1 feels more like a cumbersome weight on your back than the efficient organizational tool of real life that it aims to be. It only has 20 slots and no pockets, so every item takes up the same space, including Key Items and TMs, forcing you to constantly deposit items in the PC lest you run out of space. Even then the PC can only hold 50 items itself, so you can never collect all the TMs at once without some sacrifice which is hard to think about nowadays. This all makes for a frustrating user experience.
Gen 2's bag, on the other hand, is a masterpiece. While the 20 item limit still exists for general items, the bag was now divided into separate sections for Balls, Key Items, and TM/HMs, which had enough storage to carry every instance of each of the specialties, letting you have access to these essentials at all times and greatly lowering the stress on the Items section. In addition, the bag now gave descriptions for every item and listed out the names of each TM in the menu itself for further ease of access. While the bag has since been further innovated on, a bag with pockets would be the standard for the rest of the series. Separate PC storage would soon disappear, but its concept would reappear a few times in the form of adding a Free Space section to the bag.
As a sidenote, we can see that the bag still was similar to its Gen 1 incarnation in the Spaceworld 1997 era (EDIT: with the new addition of item descriptions and a dedicated screen), but much closer to release we can see the key division of pockets starting to be realized (though the Items and TM sections went from the center and left to the left and right pockets of the bag), with the top area used to show each section name. In final this area would be used to provide control info instead, and only the current section would be labeled.
Looking back on the bag system of Gen 2 personally, I do remember still running into the limits sometimes since all the new berries and apricorns were in the same place, but it was much easier to just leave them in the PC when I didn't need them, as well as held items and limited consumables like Rare Candy. Eventually I would also figure out to keep my working inventory down to the better levels of medicine and Repels as the game progressed, and I like that sense of having to cull out outdated earlygame items as your mons scale higher and you can afford to upgrade, which actually recently made a return.
While Legends Arceus's version of a limited bag seems much like Gen 1's on paper, I feel more that it actually plays closer to Gen 2's improved version in practice, since there are no TMs to worry about, few balls, and most importantly they still made a pocket for Key Items. PLA's idea of letting you upgrade your bag is a good compromise as well, while still encouraging you to preemptively prepare for explorations and deposit all your found treasures and material after the fact. The environment of PLA also means that even if you have a full bag, all you may have to give up on or toss are natural resources that can always be found or crafted again, which brings me back to running into a full bag in Gen 2 by picking up the different varieties of berries and apricorns.
On the other hand, SV's lack of free space is particularly highlighted when you run into the opposite problem of scrolling through pages of bag bloat with no fast scroll, and adding more pockets for TM material and picnic things that never need to be directly viewed from the bag. Nothing would change if these pockets didn't exist and the game just tracked them in the background, like how SWSH didn't need to make each toy in Camp its own item.
I suppose an infinite bag is a necessary evil nowadays when you have a dual existence as a competitive game that revolves around grinding out rare resources, but I feel that Gen 2 and PLA manage to strike the unique balance of making limited resource management naturally work out as a conscious challenge to engage with, while still not backsliding to the point of Gen 1 constantly making you choose between limited items.
Lastly, I'd like to hear about other experiences of item management in Gen 2, and what you choose to keep around in the bag or in the PC over the course of the adventure as you gather more unique items, since it's not something I tend to think about often outside of the game itself but it remained a memory nonetheless.
Images from: Bulbapedia (Bag), TCRF (Spaceworld demo), myself (TM pocket), and RPGamer (prerelease Gen 2 images).
The humble Bag has been key to the series from the start, being present everywhere from the START menu to having its own dedicated option in battle, and enabling most interactions in the game. However, the original bag of Gen 1 feels more like a cumbersome weight on your back than the efficient organizational tool of real life that it aims to be. It only has 20 slots and no pockets, so every item takes up the same space, including Key Items and TMs, forcing you to constantly deposit items in the PC lest you run out of space. Even then the PC can only hold 50 items itself, so you can never collect all the TMs at once without some sacrifice which is hard to think about nowadays. This all makes for a frustrating user experience.
Gen 2's bag, on the other hand, is a masterpiece. While the 20 item limit still exists for general items, the bag was now divided into separate sections for Balls, Key Items, and TM/HMs, which had enough storage to carry every instance of each of the specialties, letting you have access to these essentials at all times and greatly lowering the stress on the Items section. In addition, the bag now gave descriptions for every item and listed out the names of each TM in the menu itself for further ease of access. While the bag has since been further innovated on, a bag with pockets would be the standard for the rest of the series. Separate PC storage would soon disappear, but its concept would reappear a few times in the form of adding a Free Space section to the bag.
As a sidenote, we can see that the bag still was similar to its Gen 1 incarnation in the Spaceworld 1997 era (EDIT: with the new addition of item descriptions and a dedicated screen), but much closer to release we can see the key division of pockets starting to be realized (though the Items and TM sections went from the center and left to the left and right pockets of the bag), with the top area used to show each section name. In final this area would be used to provide control info instead, and only the current section would be labeled.
Looking back on the bag system of Gen 2 personally, I do remember still running into the limits sometimes since all the new berries and apricorns were in the same place, but it was much easier to just leave them in the PC when I didn't need them, as well as held items and limited consumables like Rare Candy. Eventually I would also figure out to keep my working inventory down to the better levels of medicine and Repels as the game progressed, and I like that sense of having to cull out outdated earlygame items as your mons scale higher and you can afford to upgrade, which actually recently made a return.
While Legends Arceus's version of a limited bag seems much like Gen 1's on paper, I feel more that it actually plays closer to Gen 2's improved version in practice, since there are no TMs to worry about, few balls, and most importantly they still made a pocket for Key Items. PLA's idea of letting you upgrade your bag is a good compromise as well, while still encouraging you to preemptively prepare for explorations and deposit all your found treasures and material after the fact. The environment of PLA also means that even if you have a full bag, all you may have to give up on or toss are natural resources that can always be found or crafted again, which brings me back to running into a full bag in Gen 2 by picking up the different varieties of berries and apricorns.
On the other hand, SV's lack of free space is particularly highlighted when you run into the opposite problem of scrolling through pages of bag bloat with no fast scroll, and adding more pockets for TM material and picnic things that never need to be directly viewed from the bag. Nothing would change if these pockets didn't exist and the game just tracked them in the background, like how SWSH didn't need to make each toy in Camp its own item.
I suppose an infinite bag is a necessary evil nowadays when you have a dual existence as a competitive game that revolves around grinding out rare resources, but I feel that Gen 2 and PLA manage to strike the unique balance of making limited resource management naturally work out as a conscious challenge to engage with, while still not backsliding to the point of Gen 1 constantly making you choose between limited items.
Lastly, I'd like to hear about other experiences of item management in Gen 2, and what you choose to keep around in the bag or in the PC over the course of the adventure as you gather more unique items, since it's not something I tend to think about often outside of the game itself but it remained a memory nonetheless.
Images from: Bulbapedia (Bag), TCRF (Spaceworld demo), myself (TM pocket), and RPGamer (prerelease Gen 2 images).
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After a look at the bag, it makes sense to review the box system next as it's adjacent to the item storage in the PC, and basically is the inventory for Pokemon. I feel like it's a fundamental aspect of Pokemon that every player ends up interacting with to make decisions, and still ends up one of the most commonly accessed menus no matter how you play, especially in postgame.
The boxes in Gen 1 are rather basic, with only Deposit/Withdraw options available and all being in the same style as every other menu, and having to save to change boxes every time whenever they get full or you can't catch anything. Over time boxes have mostly gotten better and comparing Gen 1 to the current Gen 9 is night and day. Deposit and Withdraw have been removed, and they don't even call it a Storage System or use a PC to access it anymore. It says something that boxes were one of the things PLA actually advanced on with multirelease, and that game takes place before boxes are invented. While Gen 3 may have introduced the modern grid interface and multiselect (though HGSS and BW would remove it), Gen 2's new box functions are still a massive improvement over Gen 1 even with the same list-based interface, and it would form the baseline of box organization features to this day.
Gen 2 cleans things up a bit with its box UI, giving each mode a dedicated screen instead of laying popups all over the overworld. I like that Gen 2 shows you the sprite of each Pokemon you scroll through, which could trip you up in Gen 1 since it only displayed nicknames and not species. The orange tint effect here is probably meant to evoke the monitor of the PC, like how the Pokedex shows Pokemon with a green palette. It also manages to show the level, gender, held item status, and species of each Pokemon as well. The one thing lost from Gen 1 is the level for Pokemon you don't select not being visible, but the other games didn't bother to bring this back either.
More importantly, Gen 2 added the first Move Pokemon (without Mail) feature in the series, and this would become the default system for modern boxes today. It's a major step from Gen 1, requiring one save and then giving you free reign to look through all your boxes, seeing a list of the Pokemon inside them show up immediately, and moving Pokemon directly between them and your party. This feature mostly obsoletes Deposit and Withdraw, though they are still quick to use in the earlygame when you only have to deal with 1 box. Compared to just selecting MOVE on a Pokemon to send it to another box, in Gen 1 you would have to withdraw, change boxes, deposit, and repeat. This moving menu also lets you reorder Pokemon within a box directly, which is also inconvenient in Gen 1.
While you still have to change boxes whenever you get full, Gen 2 still manages to improve on that flaw too through a natural in-universe reason. Meeting Bill in GSC has an ingame benefit that also makes his inventing of the box system relevant to more than just putting his name on the menu, as he will automatically call you after your current box becomes full. This all makes it feel more bearable to review and manage a large collection of Pokemon, which is appropriate for a game that has a postgame region to explore and encourages collecting a wide variety of new species.
The Change Box menu also vastly improved over its Gen 1 incarnation, allowing you to see the current number of Pokemon in each box. Gen 2 also introduced the first ability to give boxes names, which is helpful for organization and setting up ACE. There are 2 more boxes (14) over Gen 1's 12, and something the localization did is make boxes hold 20 mons instead of 30 but have 14 instead of 9, which ends up with more storage in total. I think this was a good idea because since you can only see 5 mons at a time, so it's easier on short term memory to have more boxes with less mons to scroll through, which also allows for more finer separation into named groups.
For some miscellaneous notes, Gen 2 was when boxes started automatically healing Pokemon, or rather just not saving current HP for box mons, which is just convenient when PCs are always in Pokemon Centers anyway but now that doesn't apply anymore. You can print out boxes in full, though this was in Yellow too but again developed around the same time, and it's more of a novelty these days that we can still capture with emulation. Also, this is less about boxes but the last thing I want to say about Gen 1 is that you could only move forward in the summary menu using the A button, while Gen 2 just let you use the directions to go to each page.
As a sidenote, Spaceworld 1997 had already given the box its own screen at this point, but it was still a work in progress and is close to Gen 1 in some ways while far in others. The first option here is purely just to view Pokemon summaries, which uses its own unique screen that shows 4 Pokemon at a time, with their species, nickname, level, and gender visible. Withdraw, Deposit, and Release use the Gen 1 UI, though without the STATS option. The Change Box menu is more similar to Gen 2's final version though, with 10 boxes visible (with 30 slots), a slightly broken display of the current number of Pokemon, and the ability to rename boxes already implemented.
Technically Stadium 2 also counts under Gen 2, and it has some neat organizational features that still haven't returned in the main games and box-type games, like being able to use items on box mons directly and being able to filter all Pokemon in a list view where you can view and sort by different fields easily. It reminds me of Fire Emblem's Unit menus, and I think being able to read through all this info in table form would be a nice way to navigate compared to the current search system making you check every highlighted slot individually. Stadium 2 also let you store items and transfer them across different games which was kind of interesting. Bank actually had a list view but you could only see 5 Pokemon at a time, and the "Pokemon List" in HOME is more of just an infinite box that you can filter.
Personally I appreciate Gen 2's boxes for their great utility. Even if I don't fully organize boxes during the campaign and stick with a static party, I think it's helpful for work in the postgame and bringing out different Pokemon. However, I feel like in practice the MOVE POKEMON W/O MAIL option may have been underused by players, based on some reactions and PSAs I read around the VC releases. I feel like the option's name being long and mentioning mail might have confused some people into thinking it was a mail-related option and not bothering to try it, sticking to the Gen 1 system. You can't even deposit Pokemon from the party holding mail anyway, so I feel like they could have just named this "MOVE POKEMON" and dropped the mail part.
Images from: Bulbapedia, lparchive, official screenshots, ingame screenshots.
The boxes in Gen 1 are rather basic, with only Deposit/Withdraw options available and all being in the same style as every other menu, and having to save to change boxes every time whenever they get full or you can't catch anything. Over time boxes have mostly gotten better and comparing Gen 1 to the current Gen 9 is night and day. Deposit and Withdraw have been removed, and they don't even call it a Storage System or use a PC to access it anymore. It says something that boxes were one of the things PLA actually advanced on with multirelease, and that game takes place before boxes are invented. While Gen 3 may have introduced the modern grid interface and multiselect (though HGSS and BW would remove it), Gen 2's new box functions are still a massive improvement over Gen 1 even with the same list-based interface, and it would form the baseline of box organization features to this day.
Gen 2 cleans things up a bit with its box UI, giving each mode a dedicated screen instead of laying popups all over the overworld. I like that Gen 2 shows you the sprite of each Pokemon you scroll through, which could trip you up in Gen 1 since it only displayed nicknames and not species. The orange tint effect here is probably meant to evoke the monitor of the PC, like how the Pokedex shows Pokemon with a green palette. It also manages to show the level, gender, held item status, and species of each Pokemon as well. The one thing lost from Gen 1 is the level for Pokemon you don't select not being visible, but the other games didn't bother to bring this back either.
More importantly, Gen 2 added the first Move Pokemon (without Mail) feature in the series, and this would become the default system for modern boxes today. It's a major step from Gen 1, requiring one save and then giving you free reign to look through all your boxes, seeing a list of the Pokemon inside them show up immediately, and moving Pokemon directly between them and your party. This feature mostly obsoletes Deposit and Withdraw, though they are still quick to use in the earlygame when you only have to deal with 1 box. Compared to just selecting MOVE on a Pokemon to send it to another box, in Gen 1 you would have to withdraw, change boxes, deposit, and repeat. This moving menu also lets you reorder Pokemon within a box directly, which is also inconvenient in Gen 1.
While you still have to change boxes whenever you get full, Gen 2 still manages to improve on that flaw too through a natural in-universe reason. Meeting Bill in GSC has an ingame benefit that also makes his inventing of the box system relevant to more than just putting his name on the menu, as he will automatically call you after your current box becomes full. This all makes it feel more bearable to review and manage a large collection of Pokemon, which is appropriate for a game that has a postgame region to explore and encourages collecting a wide variety of new species.
The Change Box menu also vastly improved over its Gen 1 incarnation, allowing you to see the current number of Pokemon in each box. Gen 2 also introduced the first ability to give boxes names, which is helpful for organization and setting up ACE. There are 2 more boxes (14) over Gen 1's 12, and something the localization did is make boxes hold 20 mons instead of 30 but have 14 instead of 9, which ends up with more storage in total. I think this was a good idea because since you can only see 5 mons at a time, so it's easier on short term memory to have more boxes with less mons to scroll through, which also allows for more finer separation into named groups.
For some miscellaneous notes, Gen 2 was when boxes started automatically healing Pokemon, or rather just not saving current HP for box mons, which is just convenient when PCs are always in Pokemon Centers anyway but now that doesn't apply anymore. You can print out boxes in full, though this was in Yellow too but again developed around the same time, and it's more of a novelty these days that we can still capture with emulation. Also, this is less about boxes but the last thing I want to say about Gen 1 is that you could only move forward in the summary menu using the A button, while Gen 2 just let you use the directions to go to each page.
As a sidenote, Spaceworld 1997 had already given the box its own screen at this point, but it was still a work in progress and is close to Gen 1 in some ways while far in others. The first option here is purely just to view Pokemon summaries, which uses its own unique screen that shows 4 Pokemon at a time, with their species, nickname, level, and gender visible. Withdraw, Deposit, and Release use the Gen 1 UI, though without the STATS option. The Change Box menu is more similar to Gen 2's final version though, with 10 boxes visible (with 30 slots), a slightly broken display of the current number of Pokemon, and the ability to rename boxes already implemented.
Technically Stadium 2 also counts under Gen 2, and it has some neat organizational features that still haven't returned in the main games and box-type games, like being able to use items on box mons directly and being able to filter all Pokemon in a list view where you can view and sort by different fields easily. It reminds me of Fire Emblem's Unit menus, and I think being able to read through all this info in table form would be a nice way to navigate compared to the current search system making you check every highlighted slot individually. Stadium 2 also let you store items and transfer them across different games which was kind of interesting. Bank actually had a list view but you could only see 5 Pokemon at a time, and the "Pokemon List" in HOME is more of just an infinite box that you can filter.
Personally I appreciate Gen 2's boxes for their great utility. Even if I don't fully organize boxes during the campaign and stick with a static party, I think it's helpful for work in the postgame and bringing out different Pokemon. However, I feel like in practice the MOVE POKEMON W/O MAIL option may have been underused by players, based on some reactions and PSAs I read around the VC releases. I feel like the option's name being long and mentioning mail might have confused some people into thinking it was a mail-related option and not bothering to try it, sticking to the Gen 1 system. You can't even deposit Pokemon from the party holding mail anyway, so I feel like they could have just named this "MOVE POKEMON" and dropped the mail part.
Images from: Bulbapedia, lparchive, official screenshots, ingame screenshots.
As the anniversary of Gold and Silver's Japanese release approaches this month, I was thinking that the most major feature from Gen 2 that appeals to modern players today is either the concept of breeding or shinies, and they tie pretty closely together these days. I won't go into these mechanics in much detail, but I find them the best examples of how Gen 2 set a direction for the franchise to follow, making reasons to keep playing and exploring after beating the campaign. Shiny hunting is its own subculture at this point, while breeding has been a core tool for that purpose and also used to be the main way to optimize a competitive species for some generations.
While the concept of breeding wasn't a unique one to games, it was a natural step for Pokemon to take. Letting you spawn more of a rare Pokemon like the starters or Eevee would be an essential way to add more incentive for trades and gaining Pokedex entries, without having to rely on multiple games or giving up your only mon. I would say Gen 2 got the core mechanics of breeding right from the start with having 2 compatible Pokemon make an egg, with future generations just making the process much faster and easier to fine tune what you wanted. While breeding rates were at their slowest to start, they at least had the indicator of the NPC moving from the start, and they had the idea of pairing the same species and Pokemon from other trainers to be more likely to generate eggs, which would later develop into the Masuda method encouraging trading across languages using the GTS.
Something unique about Gen 2 is that its specific DV inheritance mechanics were short-lived and intended to prevent parent/child breeding, but could also end up with generous shiny rates from certain parents which can be chain bred from the Red Gyarados. I will link to bluemoonfalls's page on DV breeding here for a detailed explanation on how this works, which also has an interesting point and tool about how you can use Stadium 2 to visually determine if an Egg contains a shiny or not, because the "Egg" is treated as a nickname with a unique hue shift while shinies are never affected by the hue shift.
With breeding also came the advent of giving genders to every Pokemon aside from the Nidorans, and even while the method of sorting by the Attack DV required pretty even divisions, most mons still fall under one of the original Gen 2 gender ratios today. The importance of gender is also demonstrated in practice close to the daycare, with Attract in Whitney's gym being a menace depending on how your party is laid out, and a female Machop trade conveniently in Goldenrod as well. I also think it's neat how they've still managed to fit everything in just the original egg groups introduced back in Gen 2, having the Fairy group before the Fairy type, and giving Ditto a niche that makes it a mon worth having around in each game.
A note from the file 子作り説明VER1.0（エクセル）.xls in the leaked Gen 2 source code lists out the names for all the egg groups, as well as most of how breeding mechanics work, which also confirms the intentions of DV inheritance as mentioned above. The main thing of note is that Water 1 (2) is named for aquatic animals, while Water 3 (9) is called crustaceans and Water 2 (12) is fish instead of just being called Water 1/2/3 here which I always found odd.
The topic of breeding also comes to one of the biggest advertising points of Gen 2, the new baby Pokemon and the eggs they come from, and this still applies just from the context of the game. Just from the start of the game exploring in New Bark Town, you find out that Professor Elm has been discovering new Pokemon and the fact that Pikachu is an evolved Pokemon, and is investigating the mysteries of why no one has ever witnessed a Pokemon's birth. The story of the game starts by investigating the new Mystery Egg and eventually hatching the Togepi for yourself. Crystal has the Odd Egg that gives you one of the babies that are normally inaccessible for most of the game, though it's only usable today outside of Japan where it was a Mobile Adapter tie-in event. The process of hatching these eggs also hasn't particularly changed much since Gen 2, still having to walk around and lower egg cycles, and even the egg watch in the summary giving you hints of how close it is to hatching dates back to Gen 2.
The other neat thing about hatching Pokemon from eggs is the concept of egg moves, giving Pokemon access to more options than they normally would have from just natural moves and universal TMs. I don't think GSC really hints at this ingame, but in HGSS they gave Togepi Extrasensory and they've been spreading around more access to egg moves via other means lately, with Gen 9 not even bothering with ensuring validity anymore and just throwing around egg moves that have no valid parents which you need the Mirror Herb to transfer. Another underlooked aspect of egg move inheritance is that you could inherit TM moves from parents before Gen 6 to get more mileage out of them, and also levelup moves if both parents know the same one, which is still relevant today with the case of breeding Spore on Shroomish to keep it in Breloom's relearn pool.
The first time I interacted with egg moves in HGSS, I remember trying to find out what egg moves I could even make, and the only option I had was giving Flame Wheel to Rattata from Quilava. I like that this has specifically been an option since Gen 2, as a reasonable example of sharing coverage from a starter to a common mon that otherwise wouldn't have it.
Reading through the stages of development that egg group and move distribution went through on tcrf is also pretty interesting. Every mon having a pool of 5 egg moves to start makes it seem like the concept started off as more of a general idea to expand movepools, before deciding what would actually be possible ingame and polishing the selection down afterwards. Highlights include Unown, Magikarp and genderless mons being included in the very first, Sunkern losing its egg group for a time and having no egg moves in the final game, the variety of moves that wouldn't see the light of day like Sacred Fire and Milk Drink, and removed moves that would end up being used in NYPC eggs.
As for shinies, they were a noticeable way to add an innately rare and special trait to Pokemon, and they also got their own iconic plot moment in Gen 2 with the Red Gyarados. Their unique animation lets you tell that the encounter is important even when playing on a Game Boy. All I have to say here is that the idea of shinies was a lasting legacy of its own with how modern games and GO have been shifting towards making these more desirable and accessible, with adding more ways to increase odds or making a spectacle out of them in events.
Shinies were conceptualized since Spaceworld 1997, and even with the limited palettes of the Super Game Boy, each of the 10 base palettes got a shiny equivalent which you can compare on tcrf. In this iteration, their DV requirement was just to have at least 10 in Attack, Defense, Special, and Speed, which would be pretty intuitive to see if you got a strong mon, but in final they made it much stricter with exactly 10 in Def/Spe/Special and a few ranges for Attack. On a personal note, I don't really agree with the theory that commonly gets brought up that shinies in Gen 2 were automatically generated by an algorithm or palette swap, for reasons like shiny palettes are defined completely separately in the game, and thus you can find mons with the same normal palette but a different shiny palette like Squirtle and Wartortle.
Looking back on it all, I feel like the core ideas behind these features haven't changed that much since their inception. Shinies are still rare random occurrences that can make even the most common of mons special to find, while breeding lets you make more of your current mons and hatch eggs that can have unique inheritances. Even while their mechanics and methods may change over the generations, the processes we interact with still follow the familiar examples that Gen 2 originally set. The roots you can trace back are deep for a sequel that had to fit this all into a pre-existing engine and maintain compatibility with the original games that had none of this in mind.
While the concept of breeding wasn't a unique one to games, it was a natural step for Pokemon to take. Letting you spawn more of a rare Pokemon like the starters or Eevee would be an essential way to add more incentive for trades and gaining Pokedex entries, without having to rely on multiple games or giving up your only mon. I would say Gen 2 got the core mechanics of breeding right from the start with having 2 compatible Pokemon make an egg, with future generations just making the process much faster and easier to fine tune what you wanted. While breeding rates were at their slowest to start, they at least had the indicator of the NPC moving from the start, and they had the idea of pairing the same species and Pokemon from other trainers to be more likely to generate eggs, which would later develop into the Masuda method encouraging trading across languages using the GTS.
Something unique about Gen 2 is that its specific DV inheritance mechanics were short-lived and intended to prevent parent/child breeding, but could also end up with generous shiny rates from certain parents which can be chain bred from the Red Gyarados. I will link to bluemoonfalls's page on DV breeding here for a detailed explanation on how this works, which also has an interesting point and tool about how you can use Stadium 2 to visually determine if an Egg contains a shiny or not, because the "Egg" is treated as a nickname with a unique hue shift while shinies are never affected by the hue shift.
With breeding also came the advent of giving genders to every Pokemon aside from the Nidorans, and even while the method of sorting by the Attack DV required pretty even divisions, most mons still fall under one of the original Gen 2 gender ratios today. The importance of gender is also demonstrated in practice close to the daycare, with Attract in Whitney's gym being a menace depending on how your party is laid out, and a female Machop trade conveniently in Goldenrod as well. I also think it's neat how they've still managed to fit everything in just the original egg groups introduced back in Gen 2, having the Fairy group before the Fairy type, and giving Ditto a niche that makes it a mon worth having around in each game.
A note from the file 子作り説明VER1.0（エクセル）.xls in the leaked Gen 2 source code lists out the names for all the egg groups, as well as most of how breeding mechanics work, which also confirms the intentions of DV inheritance as mentioned above. The main thing of note is that Water 1 (2) is named for aquatic animals, while Water 3 (9) is called crustaceans and Water 2 (12) is fish instead of just being called Water 1/2/3 here which I always found odd.
| １ ：怪獣 ２ ：水棲動物 ３ ：虫 |
| ４ ：鳥 ５ ：動物 ６ ：妖精 |
| ７ ：植物 ８ ：人型 ９ ：甲殻類 |
| １０：無機物 １１：不定形 １２：魚 |
| １３：メタモン １４：ドラゴン １５：無生殖 |
The topic of breeding also comes to one of the biggest advertising points of Gen 2, the new baby Pokemon and the eggs they come from, and this still applies just from the context of the game. Just from the start of the game exploring in New Bark Town, you find out that Professor Elm has been discovering new Pokemon and the fact that Pikachu is an evolved Pokemon, and is investigating the mysteries of why no one has ever witnessed a Pokemon's birth. The story of the game starts by investigating the new Mystery Egg and eventually hatching the Togepi for yourself. Crystal has the Odd Egg that gives you one of the babies that are normally inaccessible for most of the game, though it's only usable today outside of Japan where it was a Mobile Adapter tie-in event. The process of hatching these eggs also hasn't particularly changed much since Gen 2, still having to walk around and lower egg cycles, and even the egg watch in the summary giving you hints of how close it is to hatching dates back to Gen 2.
The other neat thing about hatching Pokemon from eggs is the concept of egg moves, giving Pokemon access to more options than they normally would have from just natural moves and universal TMs. I don't think GSC really hints at this ingame, but in HGSS they gave Togepi Extrasensory and they've been spreading around more access to egg moves via other means lately, with Gen 9 not even bothering with ensuring validity anymore and just throwing around egg moves that have no valid parents which you need the Mirror Herb to transfer. Another underlooked aspect of egg move inheritance is that you could inherit TM moves from parents before Gen 6 to get more mileage out of them, and also levelup moves if both parents know the same one, which is still relevant today with the case of breeding Spore on Shroomish to keep it in Breloom's relearn pool.
The first time I interacted with egg moves in HGSS, I remember trying to find out what egg moves I could even make, and the only option I had was giving Flame Wheel to Rattata from Quilava. I like that this has specifically been an option since Gen 2, as a reasonable example of sharing coverage from a starter to a common mon that otherwise wouldn't have it.
Reading through the stages of development that egg group and move distribution went through on tcrf is also pretty interesting. Every mon having a pool of 5 egg moves to start makes it seem like the concept started off as more of a general idea to expand movepools, before deciding what would actually be possible ingame and polishing the selection down afterwards. Highlights include Unown, Magikarp and genderless mons being included in the very first, Sunkern losing its egg group for a time and having no egg moves in the final game, the variety of moves that wouldn't see the light of day like Sacred Fire and Milk Drink, and removed moves that would end up being used in NYPC eggs.
As for shinies, they were a noticeable way to add an innately rare and special trait to Pokemon, and they also got their own iconic plot moment in Gen 2 with the Red Gyarados. Their unique animation lets you tell that the encounter is important even when playing on a Game Boy. All I have to say here is that the idea of shinies was a lasting legacy of its own with how modern games and GO have been shifting towards making these more desirable and accessible, with adding more ways to increase odds or making a spectacle out of them in events.
Shinies were conceptualized since Spaceworld 1997, and even with the limited palettes of the Super Game Boy, each of the 10 base palettes got a shiny equivalent which you can compare on tcrf. In this iteration, their DV requirement was just to have at least 10 in Attack, Defense, Special, and Speed, which would be pretty intuitive to see if you got a strong mon, but in final they made it much stricter with exactly 10 in Def/Spe/Special and a few ranges for Attack. On a personal note, I don't really agree with the theory that commonly gets brought up that shinies in Gen 2 were automatically generated by an algorithm or palette swap, for reasons like shiny palettes are defined completely separately in the game, and thus you can find mons with the same normal palette but a different shiny palette like Squirtle and Wartortle.
Looking back on it all, I feel like the core ideas behind these features haven't changed that much since their inception. Shinies are still rare random occurrences that can make even the most common of mons special to find, while breeding lets you make more of your current mons and hatch eggs that can have unique inheritances. Even while their mechanics and methods may change over the generations, the processes we interact with still follow the familiar examples that Gen 2 originally set. The roots you can trace back are deep for a sequel that had to fit this all into a pre-existing engine and maintain compatibility with the original games that had none of this in mind.
Tbh i think I agree with you. one the theory's main arguments is the fact a lot of shinies follow some basic guidelines (blue mons tend to turn pink/red and vice versa) but I think people argue this by looking at the 3d models/more modern sprites and new pokemon, and not the og GSC mons and their sprites.
looking at the crystal shiny collection rn, I don't think there's any set pattern to this. Wooper, ditto, mew, wobbufett, corsola and shuckle follow this pink < > blue rule, but slowpoke, lapras, horsea line, and psyduck turn purple, delibird turns pink, phanpy turns silver, polis are still blue, tentas are blue/green, golduck is still blue, articuno is blue, totodile is green etc. There's just as many outliers as there is rule stickers, and you can do this analysis for every so called "algorithm rule".
I think there are trends, but they seem more like failsafes based on GSC choices. Don't know what shiny to give a blue mon? it'll almost always look good with pink/red. Stuck on a brown normal shiny? Green is natural and striking etc. I also feel like this theory got more power when we were told in modern gens that the artist who makes the design chooses the color, which then made people assume it wasn't made by hand in older generations, but that to me just sounds like the shinies were made by one person in bulk, which is pretty easy with pixel art. Once things changed to 3D, the pokémon designing pipeline probably changed a lot, and it was more convenient to make the artist submit a shiny design with their main design.
Sidenote, I know people complain about 3d models ruining certain shinies but tbh I think gen 3 was the original shiny destroyer. It improved some shinies but also a lot of shinies were built with the limited color pallete in mind, and once they could add a bunch of colors they ruined the look a lot of them had imo. A lot of greens were more subtle, lighter and looked really good! So did a lot of the golds, which became more mustard yellow. There are still plenty of changes that didn't affect the mons now and even some improvements, but the new colors meant newer games would slowly lose the original effect and emphatized this new gen 3 retcon.
My least favorite change was scyther
The shiny was built with the fact the second color was both the exposed skin but also the lines on the wings and arms, creating this subtle but nice red effect. But gen 3 comes around and those red effects are lost, and the sprite themselves are more proportional, leaving the red accent to be uninpressive.
A lot of shinies were built using the lineart and shading to create strong effects, but as gen 3 standartized the lineart and shading colors, they didn't recreate this effect or did so poorly.
Raichu is a big loser in this standartization, losing its metallic colors which gets swapped by a sunburn red.
Of course, there were some big winners with the brighter, striking colors, but there's something about the og shinies and how they were colored that's been lost in the series imo. Then again, I think the shiny designing philosophy changed a lot once designers were in charge of shinies, so you'd have to analyise each artists' preferences and what they think a shiny should be like.
This. I can explain why this happens. 8-bit colored sprites are limited to a four-color palette (apparently that's how you spell this word), but two of those colors are set automatically to black and white. In practice, what this means is that the two leftover color slots that can be adjusted are the ones that get adjusted when Shininess is applied to any of these GSC sprites. The issue here is that subsequent handheld platforms had increased capabilities of displaying color over time, but each of those extra colors would, theoretically speaking, be closer relative to each other on a dedicated computer color map. That's a more complicated way of saying that two shades of your favorite color stand out a lot more compared to each other in an 8-bit RGB color display than, say, a 16-bit color display. The DS games would further add to this conundrum with an 18-bit RGB color display over the previous 16-bit, with the 3DS and Switch games implementing 24 bits and the obvious transition to dedicated 3D models.
My best guess as someone who doesn't know too much about coding is that some of these extra color bits were actually being applied to saturation values rather than specific color index values during the shift to 3D models. The shift from 8 bits to 16 bits, rather, would be a direct upgrade of one byte and give the developers more creative liberty with actually changing their Shinies up as they please. Case in point, this picture from a Twitter/X post I found:
I didn't think the picture would be that large when I copy-pasted it, but my point still stands.
I agree with this, and I think the main issue is that they didn't try to "capture" what made the original shinies work. In my raichu example, a lot of that metallic feel comes from the silver and gold coloring, which was completely thrown away. My guess is that this one isn't a extra colors issue but the fact they changed base raichu from a bright red into the browns it has today (mistake imo, the red looks much better) so they kinda swapped the base and shiny, but if that was the case I wish the modern base raichu had that metallic feel.
Another thing that imo gen 2 had as the best was the animations. The "transformation" era (i.e stretching the sprite, spinning it, etc) of gen 3-4 is fine, but a big downgrade from gen 2s limited animation. Now you might say gen 5 is like gen 2 but better, but I actually disagree.
Gen 2 animations know exactly how to portray movement in different speeds and meanings. It's limited, but each frame is intentional and show great animation with personality.
Gen 5's tweening animations just looks very unnatural to me. Everything moves at the same speed and has almost 0 smear frames or anything to make things feel impactful, so everything just looks floaty/has no weight on it. Hell, I think its worse than gen 3-4, because those gens used the sprite transformation to a similar effect of weight, power and speed.
To showcase my point, let me bring back raichu and bring a friend with it.
Look at this, they're best friends and about to beat you up. In here you can see how the sense of movement is portrayed differently in these two sprites. Raichu is doing a slow intimidating growl, while chikorita is doing a fast whip with smear frames !!. Unique, fits the pokémon, fantastique
Even if now there's a lot of sprite transformation, things are still kept with their own speeds and weights. It's kinda funny that the emerald chikorita and plat raichu kinda do the same animation though. best friends <3
Now look at this. They're moving in almost the same speed, their jumps have the same weight, similar duration, there's no squash n stretch or smear frames, no timing to make things feel weighted or alive. And while the older sprites could get by without changing the animation since it was limited, the unchanging expression of gen 5 make so many pokemon feel uncanny and more like dolls than alive. 0/10 but at least their friendship is staying strong.
Tl;dr gen 2 peaked the 2d animation. im still a 3d stan though