GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

[Turdterra]

I'm sorry, I must've missed the part where going Pryce -> Chuck -> Jasmine is somehow forbidden, especially considering that the literal game is designed to allow you to progress that way and that is how I progressed with the intention of getting Seadra to fight in as many gyms as possible.

Also lol at whinging at me for having a Pokemon only two levels above the leader's ace...while having one FOUR levels or so below them lmao. Yes, because the guy whose margin of error is SMALLER is clearly the guy who's wrong. I know some of you have a fetish for eFfiCieNcY but come on now, it doesn't take a genius to realize that fighting a major opponent while underleveled isn't really going to give you an accurate view of how well you do.

Also, imagine blaming me for nO dEtoUrS when said ''detour'' is an unavoidable part of the main story, dawg. Like this is a travesty, no more nor less.

You know what? Stick to turning up at gyms underleveled and pretending that tells you a thing about how well you do there lmao. I mean, you may as well use only L10 Pokemon against the E4 and then see which ones can actually beat more than a member's one Pokemon lol.

I'm gonna fight every gym, every E4 member, and the rival(s) at comparable levels, be it 2 levels more or fewer, but no more.

Well, there is no "forbidden" way per se, but going Pryce first is not what the game wants you to do first. Ideally it wants you to go Chuck -> Jasmine -> Pryce. This is a bit more lenient here though because of the certain things that can be obtained earlier such as Sludge Bomb and Red Gyarados. The game wasn't really designed this way but the option existed. Most game guides talk about doing Chuck first anyways.

Being 2 higher is acceptable. I've stated that already in a previous post ages ago. Johto has it pretty bad in terms of XP Drought though so being underleveled is pretty natural too.

I think Volt is saying you sequence broke really. Not so much a detour as yes, you are forced to go that way eventually. An example of a Detour would be getting Surf in Kanto, flying back to Pallet, going to Cinnabar, and getting your fossil. THAT is a detour. It's not as extreme here though.

Heracross: An absolute beast in my ingame playthroughs, although catching one can be annoying (which is why I recommend having Great Balls and a good number of Poke Balls before you do) but this can be offsetted by soft resetting. Fury Cutter reliably carves through Whitney's team whenever I used her there and she hits like a truck against NPCs with Horn Attack alone even at a level disadvantage while also being fast and bulky for the time you get her. She can make good use of Normal-type STAB to decimate most NPCs and can floor bosses with Fury Cutter spam and/or her bulk, possibly throwing in STAB Rock Smashes to facilitate an easier sweep. I also remember beating Clair with a Heracross once using Fury Cutter. Only real catch is that she's a Slow Pokemon to level up, but she's still good and much more versatile than Stantler, speedier than Granbull, much more timely than Tauros and Miltank, and a lot bulkier than pretty much every one of those Normal-types sans the big cows.

Heracross isn't as easy to find as it is in HGSS. In GSC it is what is called Mountain Trees (no joke) and is only found in select parts of Johto. Usually around Morty or so iirc though I am happy to be proven wrong on this. It's kinda like Feebas though. If you don't find one on a route after a couple of trees, it isn't in that route. There should be a site or something that has the list of routes that it exists in/on.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I think Volt is saying you sequence broke really. Not so much a detour as yes, you are forced to go that way eventually. An example of a Detour would be getting Surf in Kanto, flying back to Pallet, going to Cinnabar, and getting your fossil. THAT is a detour. It's not as extreme here though.

Again, just following the guidelines three mods told me on the Discord.

Sure, you need to go that way eventually, but only Leon goes West when he intends to go East lmao.

If I were too underleveled, I'd have gone for it, but I beat Chuck with little hassle.

I will however deviate from the standard path now because Pryce's levels are lower than Jasmine's, so I'll drop the Secretpotion at the Lighthouse and head West.

Heracross isn't as easy to find as it is in HGSS. In GSC it is what is called Mountain Trees (no joke) and ir only found in select parts of Johto. Usually around Morty or so iirc though I am happy to be proven wrong on this. It's kinda like Feebas though. If you don't find one on a route after a couple of trees, it isn't in that route. There should be a site or something that has the list of routes that it exists in/on.

There is. Someone made a tree finder because it depends on your ID.

Hide

https://www.reddit.com/r/pokemon/comments/72tbz7

Edit:

I think aegon the unlikely was referring to his run using Seadra which was why he did Mahogany Rockets first as I did not that long ago.

Choosing whether you'll go East or West first is an intentional branch that the devs programmed. This is not a detour.

I can only assume he's still talking about Sprout Tower.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I got a Game Corner TM after beating Chuck and Pryce but before beating Jasmine in my most recent run. I should note that I fought every trainer I could possibly fight at that point, including the Union Cave people. Yet more reason not to skip trainers until after you've gained all eight badges - I skipped the trainers immediately before the E4 as I really wanted to get the run over with, testing can be fun but fighting each opponent x3 with each Pokemon is genuinely tiresome and really makes things longer than I'd like in a normal game haha. Besides, my Pokemon were in the L40s anyway.

dude i was defending your posts and you jump at me, remind me to not feel any further sympathy for you ever again lmao

I got enough money around the time I defeated the Rockets in Goldenrod

I didn't attack your posts at all though? I simply stated mine weren't overleveled and offered an explanation as to why your method (which I assumed was the basis for what I felt was you criticizing me, to which I responded VERY politely compared to, say, Volt did to my criticism) doesn't work for me.

I apologize for misreading you - I just think this word ''overleveled'' as it's being thrown around needs to be shredded, burned, and sent to Mars. A 2 level advantage is not ''overleveled'', you do not owe fictional opponents fairness lol (though you DO owe your teams fairness, we all do as I myself learned the hard way). Being overleveled should be looked at in terms of whether it's realistic at that point in the game without crazy grinding/cheating/candyspam or not, not whether you're actually stronger than the opponent by X levels (especially when X is as low as 2).

That being said, I do not ask for your ''sympathy'', I only ask for fair judgments of my arguments - and as long as they don't enter the ad hominem territory like too many have (even though the content of their arguments ironically wasn't even bad in many cases), I will appreciate them.

Well, there is no "forbidden" way per se, but going Pryce first is not what the game wants you to do first. Ideally it wants you to go Chuck -> Jasmine -> Pryce. This is a bit more lenient here though because of the certain things that can be obtained earlier such as Sludge Bomb and Red Gyarados. The game wasn't really designed this way but the option existed. Most game guides talk about doing Chuck first anyways.

Being 2 higher is acceptable. I've stated that already in a previous post ages ago. Johto has it pretty bad in terms of XP Drought though so being underleveled is pretty natural too.

I think Volt is saying you sequence broke really. Not so much a detour as yes, you are forced to go that way eventually. An example of a Detour would be getting Surf in Kanto, flying back to Pallet, going to Cinnabar, and getting your fossil. THAT is a detour. It's not as extreme here though.



Heracross isn't as easy to find as it is in HGSS. In GSC it is what is called Mountain Trees (no joke) and is only found in select parts of Johto. Usually around Morty or so iirc though I am happy to be proven wrong on this. It's kinda like Feebas though. If you don't find one on a route after a couple of trees, it isn't in that route. There should be a site or something that has the list of routes that it exists in/on.

Well, the game doesn't ''not'' want you to do it the other way around either lol. It leaves both paths equally open, it's just that the gym badge lineup goes in a certain way and game guides consider that the ''official'' route. Thank you for understanding I didn't ''detour'' though lol.

Heracross is pretty easy to find in GSC though, I will say that the last number of your ID in Crystal can't be 7 however if you want one early, as that will mean you have to wait till Ecruteak to get one. That would be a bummer, given that Heracross does well against Whitney but not Morty.

Edit: If going ''east or west'' is not a detour, why jump at me for doing precisely that? Especially after I stated I did precisely that and specifically because of Seadra? And yes, Random Passerby, I was referring to my Seadra run.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

New day, new log.

5th Gym ~ 6th Gym?

Now that I got Fly, I went back to Cherrygrove. Got a Mystic Water and a Pink Bow.

Granbull is pretty damn strong at this point, so I'm going to capitalize on that. No more debuffs. Charm got erased for Dynamicpunch. Scary Face is getting tossed for Fire Punch.

It is redundant to have both, but Steelix has gigantic Defense and Dynamicpunch is the definition of unreliable. The idea is to have it as a big damage dealer and Fire Punch to guarantee accurate finishes. I also want to test which one does more damage against both Pryce and Jasmine.

Also, perfect coverage baby!

Buying Fire Punch is not a priority now though. It's only going to be used for those two bosses and then Return will take its place since hopefully Quilava will have evolved by then. Also, money test.

44.5k cash post-Chuck. Not even halfway to Fire Blast.

Delivered the Secretpotion to Jasmine. Realistically, I'm not battling her now, but the sidequest is done, so screw it. Why not?

Levels are 26 for everyone but Granbull at 27.

Vs. Jasmine (East-Only)

Attempt 1 - Magnemite outsped Quagsire and hit it with Sonicboom. Unfortunate.
Dig OHKO'd.

Steelix went up next. Scary.

Quagsire outsped Steelix. Surf is a 2HKO.

Steelix retaliates with Sunny Day. So much for that 2HKO.

Using Dig to check the damage, scout moveset and stall out sun. Steelix misses a Screech.

Pitiful damage as expected. Like, 15%?

Steelix counters with Iron Tail. Pathetic damage, just 27. Still got 48/95 HP left.

Jasmine got a Hyper Potion. Ain't that a bundle of joy?

Crit Surf. Normally I wouldn't take those in tests, but this isn't a super serious one.

AND ANOTHER ONE. BACK TO BACK. HYPER POTION THIS, SUCKER!

Level-up. Feels good.
Mag still outspeeds. Feels bad.
Dig still OHKOs. Feels good.

Attempt 2 - Bought Fire Punch. Will reset it later.

Granbull's Fire Punch is a 2HKO on Magnemite.

Thunderbolt 2HKOs back. 50 damage. 46/96HP left.

Dynamicpunch is predictably an OHKO on the 2nd Mite.

Granbull outspeeds everyone, but misses the Dynamicpunch on Steelix and is promptly finished off by Iron Tail.
Reset.

Attempt 3 - Realistically, Fearow ain't doing anything but turning into Johto Fried Chicken, but let's click Return and see what happens.

3HKO on Mag with a Pink Bow. Not bad, but...

Crispy!

Attempt 4 - I expect nothing. Go, Quilava...

Oh, hey, that ain't bad at all! Charcoal Ember gets a clean 2HKO.

Supersonic misses, so Mag did absolutely nothing.
Here comes Steelix...

4HKO. Figures. There is a significant level disadvantage though, so I'll let it slide.

Rock Throw did almost 50. Yikes. 29/76 HP left. Gonna leave it to die and get a free switch-in with Fearow to see how much Return does...

Alright fellas, spot the magic pixel.

Again, almost 10 levels below. Not a good look tho.

Attempt 5 - Quilava deals severe damage to Magnemite. It counters with Thunder Wave.

Supersonic whiffs. So she got parafusion strats. Is there one Johto Leader that doesn't rely on cheese?

Granbull vs Steelix.

Dynamicpunch misses. Screech too. Very productive first turn from both sides.

Another double miss.

Dynamicpunch finally lands. 4HKO. Now to test Fire Punch...

Oh, for crying out loud...

Damage difference is pretty noticeable, but so is the accuracy. We're done here... For now.

I'm heading West now. I always save Jasmine for 7th because she got the highest levels out of the 3 leaders.
Still did the test so people could see how well things would've went.

 

[DHR-107]

You guys really all need to chill the fuck out.

This is the last warning for all of you.

I've been very lenient with people here for far longer than I should have been. If in my opinion a post crosses a line, it will be deleted and I will be infracting people. I would suggest keeping a copy of posts you may make. Please keep reporting posts that you find problematic as well.

Remember guys, for fucks sake, this is supposed to be FOR FUN. Like, christ, stop getting at each other over nothing.

Everyone plays differently. As long as you aren't an obscene number of levels away from an Ace, then you're basically good. Down or up, doesn't matter (I would say a max of 3 above though imo, you can fight up way easier and every level above warps perception). East or West out of Ecruteak is again just a different way of playing. For some mons one way might be better than the other. We can note that and move on. Whole point in a lot of people playing is to get a number of different views. The HGSS thread is making notes of mons who make huge usage of the Choice Specs for example (so getting it earlier is better).

If we have to lock this thread again I will, which is a route I don't want to take. If you don't like X or Y user, don't reply to them. Just ignore their posts. Random Passerby you can also ignore peoples posts as well if they are garbage. It's your thread, let me know if you need any help.

Right. I hope you guys have finally got this message. I can and will ban people from posting in specific threads. I could also just straight up ban you too if it gets that bad. I don't want to do that, but it's getting to that point.

I got a Game Corner TM after beating Chuck and Pryce but before beating Jasmine in my most recent run. I should note that I fought every trainer I could possibly fight at that point, including the Union Cave people. Yet more reason not to skip trainers until after you've gained all eight badges - I skipped the trainers immediately before the E4 as I really wanted to get the run over with, testing can be fun but fighting each opponent x3 with each Pokemon is genuinely tiresome and really makes things longer than I'd like in a normal game haha. Besides, my Pokemon were in the L40s anyway.

Two things with this: I've said it before, nobody even cares about Union Cave trainers, you don't go anywhere near it again. And the second is this: If you don't want to test 3* against every important trainer, then don't do it. I get that its great for information, but if its burning people out doing this, just don't. Pick your best option and use that, its exactly what 95% of people will do anyway. Like using a normal mon in Chuck's gym, yeah sure its fun for the info, but in real terms, its unlikely to happen for a normal player who understands type matchups (or you get very unlucky and are forced too).

 

[Kioskate]

I'm doing another run with Hoothoot, Gastly, Magmar and Shellder. I just beat Morty and figured I'd show the results so far as a new discussion point. I didn't give Swift to Hoothoot, saving it for Shellder.

Hoothoot Log

9 Hoothoot needed 2 potions to beat the Spearow trainer. I didn't write it down but I'm guessing I was at 11, possibly 10 for Falkner. I used 2 potions and berry, although I ended up at 11 HP so the berry wasn't needed. I'm still glad I was safer and chose to use it though.
16 Hoothoot easily solo'd Bugsy thanks to Hypnosis, but for some reason he sent out Scyther before Kakuna. If Kakuna went first and poisoned me I would have needed to use my psncure berry.
20 Noctowl solos Whitney with an X Accuracy and Fresh Water. With Swift I don't think I would have needed the X Accuracy.
24 Noctowl is slower and 5HKO's Gengar. This is very incosisten with X Speed and X Accuracy, but like every normal type beats
Gengar with Awakenings.

Hoothoot has 5 less base Atk than Gastly while Noctowl has 5 more than Haunter. This really shows in routes. It's able to do well in major battles as long as Hypnosis hits, but it's so weak it needs multiple Hypnosis. It performs as a C rank Pokemon in major battles so far but feels like a D rank in routes. I expect it to only get worse as the game progresses and I face higher BST total Pokemon. I'm guessing by the end I'll want it in D rank.

Gastly Log

Didn't try Falkner
17 Gastly solos Falkner, but I didn't Hypnosis the cocoons and they kept hardening, taking 20 Licks. This still left me with enough HP to beat Scyther easily with Hypnosis and Curse, Fury cutter did 1 on the first hit and 2 on the second. You could also spite the 20 fury cutters but it's unnecessary.
20 Gastly solos Whitney with enough items. You want to hypnosis then curse Clefairy and use a potion, x accuracy and x speed.
Hypnosis and Curse Miltank, At which point I was at 20 hp and rollout did 10 damage. You might need a second potion if you miss sleep
on clefairy and it damages you or Miltank gets an early wake.
25 Haunter with an X Accuracy and Fresh Water can take down Gastly, Haunter and leave Gengar sleeping at 25% hp. You're faster than Haunter but it 1HKO's with Shadow ball. You might be able to 1v1 but you'd need to hit Hypnosis and get a 3 turn sleep.

Going from Gastly to Haunter isn't as bad as I was expecting. Gastly's 35 atk 30 base power stab is comparable to other bad pokemon like Hoothoot, Jigglypuff, Zubat, Oddish. Once it gets Night Shade it starts to 3HKO everything occasionally 2HKOing. I think I'm definitely going to want it to be D tier once I'm done. The babying isn't that bad because most trainers before Whitney can't hit you with a move you don't 4x resist and once you beat Whitney you're 21 for Night Shade. So far it's looking like it'll be better than a half of the garbage in D tier.

Shellder Log

24 Shellder can beat everything except Gengar or Gengar with enough awakes. Surf is a 4HKO

I'm pretty sure you can't get evolution stones from phone calls in Gold and Silver right? It's base stats are 30 HP, 65 Atk, 100 Def, 45 SpA, 25 SpD and 40 Spe. I'm curious to see if just being a Water type is good enough to be D rank.

Magmar Log

24 Magmar solos Morty. Charcoal Fire Punch 1HKO Gastly and 2HKO'd everything else. I might have needed an awake if something put me to sleep but the Haunters used Night Shade and Gengar missed Hypnosis.

I wanted a good pokemon to carry all the other garbage I'm using. I've never used Magmar but I am super impressed. I'm sure it'll run into enough problems later on not to be S but I'll enjoy it while I can.

 

[ttr]

I'm pretty sure you can't get evolution stones from phone calls in Gold and Silver right? It's base stats are 30 HP, 65 Atk, 100 Def, 45 SpA, 25 SpD and 40 Spe. I'm curious to see if just being a Water type is good enough to be D rank.

You are right, the stones are unavailable through the phone calls in Gold and Silver. The only ways to get evolution stones in G/S is at Bill's Cottage or as a .2% random chance from the Mystery Gift function. Mystery Gift does work on the Virtual Console releases, but yeah, .2% chance. Ridiculously small, pretty much a worthless option as you probably are never going to get it. You have better odds getting a N64 for your room in New Bark than a stone.

I wanted a good pokemon to carry all the other garbage I'm using. I've never used Magmar but I am super impressed. I'm sure it'll run into enough problems later on not to be S but I'll enjoy it while I can.

Magmar always impressed me in G/S, with solid mixed attacking stats and a decent enough movepool. Having access to ThunderPunch through TM immediately is fantastic at this point in the game, and 95 Attack (same as Stantler btw) is not too bad to throw out Return's / Strength's if it needs to. Getting natural Flamethrower around the League with 100 Special Attack is amazing, but iirc Magmar has difficulties against Lance's Dragonite's and Aerodactyl. I'd be interested to see if you have a similar experience, or if you find that Magmar can dent Lance's Dragonites (or break through them).

 

[Kioskate]

I beat Clair, but I'm saving the Elite 4 for tomorrow.

Hoothoot Log

26 Noctowl easily solos Chuck with an X accuracy. Might have needed an Awakening if I got unlucky,
29 Noctowl solos Pryce with an X accuracy. I lived an Icy wind from Dewgong and a Blizzard from Piloswine but if Piloswine
gets 2 early awakes you'll need a Fresh Water.
29 Noctowl might be able to beat Steelix with enough items but I wasn't going to bother finding out.
31 Noctowl is unreliable against Golbat, almost dies to Haunter from full thanks to being slow with 2 turn Fly, takes over half
from Sneasel, loses to Magnemite and beats Meganium.
35 Noctowl and solo Clair with an X Accuracy and a PrzCure Berry. It's more consitent with X speed for Kingdra. You 3HKO
Dragonair and 5HKO Kingdra. You live HYper Beam but not Hyper Beam and Surf so only 1 or 2 Hyper Potions should be needed
without the X speed and you could still need 1 with it.

I really hate Hoothoot. I had to give it Return or it would be stuck with Swift and Fly. It's still so weak I don't 1HKO things Fly is Super Effective against that are 5-9 levels below me. It's low attack and bad coverage are even more annoying because I can't let it faint or else Return gets weaker. Hypnosis + X Accuracy caries it through major battles but it sucks at routes. This is becomes worse than Gastly at routes and trainers once Gastly gets Shadow Ball and Night Shade. It's as good as Drowzee until Drowzee evolves then it's outclassed. I think it would be C if it didn't need Return, but could be D. It doesn't even get Headbutt. With the same Atk as Gastly Hoothoot would be better off having Night Shade. Night Shade 4HKO's Kingdra while Return 5HKOs.

Gastly Log

27 Haunter solos Chuck with an X accuracy. Primeape can't hit so I took 0 damage.
30 Haunter solos Pryce with an X accuracy. I lived an Icy wind from Dewgong and a Blizzard from Piloswine but if Piloswine
gets 2 early awakes you'll need a Fresh Water.
31 Haunter lives an Iron Tail from full so it's possible to beat Stealix with an X Accuracy and some Fresh Water or Paralyze Cure. You 2 shot the
Magnemite so it isn't bad to set up on them but it's not ideal either.
32 Haunter beats Meganium, Haunter and Magnemite easily but is unreliable against the rivals Golbat, can beat Sneasel but loses to early awakes
35 Haunter solos all of Clair's Dragonair with an X Accuracy and PRZcure berry, although you might need a paralyze cure
if they get early awakes. It's a 3HKO. Kingdra 1HKO's with Surf. This means you need a 3 turn Sleep to win. You Hypnosis,
then curse then Night Shade. At this point she Hyper Potions and you KO with 2 more Cursed Night Shades before she gets
another turn.. Using my 2 Rare Candy I lived Surf, making soloing all of Clair reliable. Might live with 1 but I couldn't be bothered to test.

Gastly's bad stats and move pool are definitely made up for with it's typing. All the water types towards Cianwood, all the Fighting trainers there,
all of Pryces trainers hitting you with 65 bp Aurora Beam and 40 BP Powder Snow. The only time I cared about being physically frail was against
Steelix. Not being able to hit normals is bad and you don't really like dealing with golbats but everything else is great. Night Shade continues to 3HKO everything and Shadow Ball lets you save PP against unevolved things. Sometimes you even 2HKO the weak stuff from team rocket. I honestly think this should be C rank, and only see it getting better once I get Dream Eater. I originally thought I might want Thunder but it really isn't needed, at least before the Elite 4.

Shellder Log

26 Shellder loses to both, it comes close to beating Primeape but doesn't stand a chance against Poliwrath. Also losed to some of the gym trainers.
28 Shellder can't deal with Dewgongs rest without X items but beats the other 2 easily.
28 Shellder can't beat a Magnemite but can beat Steelix thanks to Protect.
30 Shellder only beats the rival's Haunter
35 Shellder has Blizzard so nobody can say that's why it's bad. It does 2/3 of Dragonite's HP before being 2HKO. Kingdra 1HKO's
with Dragonbreath

For major battles after Morty Shellder manages to beat Steelix, a Haunter that does half the work for you as well as Seel and Piloswine. It sucks on routes against anything with a special move. It loses to most gym trainers. I think it lost to all of Chucks, although I might be remembering wrong and it beat the Primeape one. It only beat the Swinub trainer in Pryce's Gym. In Clairs gym it only beats the first Dratini trainer. I'd honestly like to see a lot of D move down to E, a lot of E move to F and most of F being untiered the same was HGSS is tiering. As it stands it's probably good enough to stay in the same tier as Spinarak and Voltorb. It doesn't need Blizzard because that doesn't actually let it do any more than it does without, at least before the Elite 4. It would probably be better if I got a Friend ball and gave it Return. It wouldn't be bad if you do Chuck after Morty so you have Fly for the back tracking and it doesn't contribute to Chuck anyway. It would feel really bad to use Return on it though. It might let you beat Dewgong but otherwise it's just for routes.

Magmar Log

26 Magmar just missed the 2HKO on Primeape. It looks like I would need 4 X Special to beat Poliwrath, maybe 5 and 3-4 Fresh Water
to set them up which isn't really viable.
29 Magmar solos Pryce easily because he doesn't use Water moves.
29 Magmar solos Jasmine, only taking half from Rock Throw
31 Magmar solos the rival, with over half hp remaining.
35 Magmar's Strength looks like a 6HKO on Kingdra, Surf 1HKOing back

Magmar is most impressive at Route clearing, but is still good at major battles. I'm actually surprised that I find it closer to being B rank than S but it definitely belongs in A. Return wouldn't have made it any better until Clair, and it wouldn't let it KO any more Pokemon so it hasn't wanted TM's at all. It does appreciate Charcoal but I'm not sure it's needed once you're getting close to a Game Corner TM.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Started my new test! My planned team is Typhlosion, Raticate, Quagsire, and Scyther.

Before fighting Falkner, I have a L11 Cyndaquil and a L11 Rattata (captured from Sprout Tower at L5, female).

Falkner

Cyndaquil (L11): In GSC, X-Accuracy basically gives you perfect accuracy and you literally get one for free in Sprout Tower before you even fight Falkner. Using it pretty much means Pidgey's Mud-Slaps (Pidgeotto doesn't use them at all for some reason) can't do a thing to your accuracy. Even without Ember, Leer x1 + Tackle x3 takes care of Pidgey, and Leer x2 + Tackle x4 took care of Pidgeotto. Needed two Potions but won. Moderately efficient matchup, Potions aren't hard to get even at this point in the game and you should already have some in your backpack even without buying.

Rattata (L11): Quick Attack 3HKOs Pidgey (has a chance at 2HKOing) and after Tail Whip x1, Quick Attack reliably 3HKOs Pidgeotto. You should need one Potion to heal, but no more. Solidly efficient matchup, significantly less item use required in comparison to Cyndaquil - if any at all (no Potion was required the second time, and only one the other two times). A Rattata with higher Attack IVs might have converted one or both 3HKOs into 2HKOs.

After Falkner, I caught a Wooper from Union Cave around L7-L9 (forgot the exact level). Wooper, who was taught Mud-Slap, was able to grind up very quickly by just beating up the Hikers and Firebreathers and the Hiker outside the cave.

Bugsy

Quilava (L15): Ember OHKOs Metapod and Kakuna. Leveled up to L16 right before fighting Scyther. Quick Attack doesn't even 3HKO even with a crit - he started firing that off after I accidentally clicked Smokescreen as my first move instead of Ember, he was using Fury Cutter initially - while Ember (reliably) 3HKOes Scyther. Very solid matchup, one you really shouldn't be losing or need any item support with. Super efficient matchup. Levels up to L17 upon winning against Scyther and even Fury Cutter fails to 3HKO or bring Quilava's HP below the green, even accounting for boosted damage on two successive turns.

Rattata (L14): Hyper Fang 3HKOs Metapod without (or through a single) Harden - ditto for Kakuna (though a 2HKO is possible), giving him a chance to poison you (as happened to me). Scyther can tank Hyper Fang with HP still in the green even after a single Tail Whip and Quick Attacks hurt way too much, to say nothing of a properly set up Fury Cutter that he likely won't even need. Recommend avoiding.

Wooper (L15): Water Gun 4HKOs Metapod and Kakuna both, giving Kakuna plenty of choices to poison (and in my case, even repoison) you. I got poisoned three times by the Kakuna, fun fact - and their String Shots don't help at all. Scyther came in next - I was still poisoned but didn't want to risk giving Scyther a free Fury Cutter turn, so I used Tail Whip x2 and a Pink Bow-boosted Slam, except it didn't even bring him to the yellow zone. Meanwhile, two Quick Attacks coupled with one hit of Fury Cutter and poison damage took me down for the count. Recommend avoiding.

Silver - Azalea Town

Quilava (L17): Gastly is reliably 2HKOed by Ember. Outpaces Croconaw but is 3HKOed by Water Gun while failing to 3HKO with any of his attacks, though can at least set up two Smokescreens or Leers (or one of either) to assist a teammate for finishing the job. Ember 3HKOes Zubat. Overall moderately efficient performance, though Quilava can't really beat Croconaw one-on-one he can defeat the others more or less reliably and at least soften Croc up for a teammate to finish off.

For me, Quilava set up x3 Leer on Croconaw (helped by the fact Croconaw decided to Leer me instead of using Water Gun like normal, though x2 Leer might have worked as well), allowing me to bring Croconaw to red with two Hyper Fangs from Rattata and finish off with a Quick Attack - albeit being brought down to red herself and requiring a Super Potion after eating a critical hit Water Gun. Yeah, this is one of the toughest fights in GSC.

Rattata (L14): Can't do a thing to the Gastly with Normal-type attacks alone. Hyper Fang reliably 2HKOs Zubat, though watch out for Supersonic. Rattata has a chance at outspeeding Croconaw but is 3HKOed (possibly 2HKOed) by Water Gun and can't 2HKO Croconaw even after Tail Whip. On the other hand, they can capitalize on opportunities created by Quilava fairly well - do need healing. Moderately efficient performance.

Wooper (L15): Can 2HKO (with a very slight chance of 3HKOing) Gastly with Mud-Slap. Zubat outpaces and can flinch you with Bite or confuse you with Supersonic - flinched me three times in fact, rendering my healing attempts null and void. Slam, in return, 3HKOes (even two Slams and one Water Gun, in contrast, left Zubat with a tiny amount of HP left). While you can beat the two, you are going to lose to Croconaw afterwards unless you have a LOT of healing items. You aren't going to beat Croconaw 1-on-1 anyway as your Slam will fail to even 2HKO after a Tail Whip, Mud-Slaps and Water Guns do pitiful damage, and you lose a fair chunk of HP yourself to Water Gun while outsped, though Mud-Slaps might help a team. Somewhat inefficient performance, has trouble 1-on-1 against any mon not called Gastly and not great as a team player either.

Overall, the Rival was a real nightmare, far tougher than either of the Gym Leaders. This is why Mud-Slap + Fury Cutter cheese is such a good idea.

 

[Random Passerby]

Kioskate Are you evolving the Haunter? Does the Nightmare TM change anything?

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I honestly feel worried for my Pokemon's levels. Haven't done any of Goldenrod (and barely any of even one surrounding route, much less the other two...or three?) but adding a Slow experience group Pokemon (Scyther) and bringing my somewhat underleveled team including said Scyther on par with Whitney probably might not be happening this time around. Any ideas on what to do?

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Got more logs.

5th Gym ~ 6th Gym

Like I mentioned in previous posts, I usually battle Chuck, then Pryce, then Jasmine due to their levels.

Got Bellsprout from the box before surfing east to interact with Suicune and cut trees around the Lake of Rage.

I actually got a bunch of decent Hidden Powers on my team, but since this is a testing run, I'm not using any of them. There is some valuable loot on the way, such as a Full Restore. All of these can be flipped into some nice cash and the hidden Rare Candy has its uses at the E4.

Time to catch the Red Gyarados.

Thrash is a 3HKO on Quagsire. Sadly, I don't have anything that can status it, so brute force it is. Not with Quag though. Its pitiful damage output kicked in again.

Swapped to Granbull, used Strength to get some real damage going, then back to Quag for defense.

Got to the Rocket Hideout at Lv. 27. Johto's level curve is nothing short of a mess.

Found a Nugget. These always come in handy.

Got the Thief TM. On my team, only Granbull and Fearow can learn it. Neither has a lot of use for it. Fearow still has Growl though, so it definitely could spare a slot if I was planning to steal something.

Ran out of bag space. Joy.

Used Quagsire's Dig to get out. Dropped a bunch of berries on the PC. Gonna fly to some Mart and sell some TMs and stuff I'm not using like Repels.

Got a quick 13k. Up to 73. Still a long way to go before 110.

I'm thinking about using Fire Punch / Thunderpunch / Rollout / Fire Blast as Typh's final moveset.

Gonna give this HP Up to Quagsire since it got the best raw defensive stats of the team. Up from 101 to 103HP.
Doesn't seem like a lot, but Red Gyara was barely 3HKOing it with Thrash. If I used it before, I'd be safe.

Kinda weird that's the only vitamin I've found so far, but I suppose that's a side effect of not going too far off the beaten path.

Back to the Hideout.

Aaaand just as I mention it... Here's a Protein! This one will need a lot more thinking though.

Got the passwords. Demolished the Executives.

Time to deal with the Electrode.

Gonna try and bait the explosions with Fearow's Fly and Quagsire's Dig.

Ha! Gottem!

Got to Mahogany's Gym. Everyone is at Lv. 29.

...Well, that's not super encouraging.

Quilava's lack of elemental punches is hurting it too. It took 2 Growls from a Seel that doesn't seem interested in anything but spamming Rest. At least Rock Smash helped me to break even and Rollout bailed it out.

Time to face Pryce. Everyone at 30 but Quagsire, who fell just short of making it to 30. The different Exp. Groups still hurting the team overall.

Vs. Pryce

Attempt 1 - Gonna start by setting up Amnesia with Quagsire against Seel.
Icy Wind did only 5 damage. Good stuff.

Dig is a 2HKO, but here comes the Rest...

Seel took too long to wake up. Quag had a dominant win. Let's see if it can keep it up, especially after a level up.

Dewgong in. Dig is a clean 3HKO. Quag's defense is really shining in this battle.

But here's the old recurring issue. Dig can't KO in time for Dewgong to not heal up with Rest. Now PP is a concern.

Surf is just not doing anything to Dewgong, so I can't even fall back on that.

Gonna switch out and see if Quag can handle Piloswine at least. RIP +2 SpD.

Granbull landed a crit Dynamicpunch on Dewgong. Ouch.

Quag vs Piloswine time. Quag at 68/110HP left. Piloswine leads with Mist.

Mystic Water Surf falls just shy of an OHKO. Could even be a bad roll.
Pryce used a Hyper Potion. Time to make sure...

Nope. Almost did it. Piloswine retaliates with Fury Attack. It outspeeds Quag. Got all the info I need. Reset.

Attempt 2 - Pink Bow Fearow OHKOs Seel with Return.

And crits on Dewgong for the OHKO as well. Sick, but this is actually a problem on testing. Reset.

Attempt 2.1 - Seel gets promptly OHKO'd again. Dewgong is 2HKO'd, but 2HKOs back with Aurora Beam. Fearow is faster.

As for Piloswine... Crit Blizzard.

Well, Fearow wouldn't survive a Crit Blizzard at full health anyway. Gonna test the 1v1 later.

Attempt 3 - Quilava opens up by missing a Rollout. Joy.

It then proceeds to 3HKO Seel, OHKO Dewgong and...

See, this is why I don't like Rollout. Well, time to play as a Fire-type, I guess.

Piloswine did Fury Attack twice... Does it not have a Ground STAB?

Wow. Just... Wow.

Charcoal Ember is a 3HKO, Flame Wheel would most certainly be a 2HKO if I had got it in time.

Attempt 4 - Gonna test out Fearow vs Piloswine.

Quilava starts rolling on Seel and eventually KOs Dewgong as well. Seel's Icy Wind missed on Turn 1. It's a consistent opener from Pryce... But I digress. Fearow is the one under the microscope here.

Still not looking good.

Blizzard hits twice in a row and that's all she wrote. Definitely not good. Gonna check Fearow's friendship tomorrow morning to see how much power Return got. 2am now tho. Reset.

Attempt 5 - Granbull vs Seel.
Strength OHKO.

Granbull vs. Dewgong.
Aurora Beam hit for 23 dmg. 83/106HP left
Dynamicpunch OHKO.

Granbull vs. Piloswine.
Didn't want to gamble on Dynamic again.

Pink Bow Strength did over 50%. Pilo used Mist and promptly got KO'd next turn.

Conclusion

Quagsire has a good matchup vs. Pryce.
Outside of Dewgong successfully stalling it out, Quag dominated the matchup. Stellar defensive performance.

Quilava has a dominant performance vs. Pryce.
He just didn't stand a chance. Run 2 Water-types and a Ground-type without having one move that can handle Fire-types brehs.
Even missing the 5th Rollout against Piloswine wasn't too much of an issue.
Flame Wheel is not necessary.

Watch out for Icy Wind Speed Drops tho.

Fearow is neutral.
Yet another matchup where the supposed S-Tier gets smoked by the Leader's ace.
It barely gets by Dewgong, if it weren't for the speed advantage it would get sniped.

Granbull has a dominant matchup.
It just destroys everything, Dynamicpunch or not. Absolutely no threat whatsoever.

 

[Kioskate]

Kioskate Are you evolving the Haunter? Does the Nightmare TM change anything?

I'm not evolving it. I'm not 100% sure but I think gym leaders will always use the move that KOs so Nightmare wouldn't have helped with Clair at 35 but would have if I survived Surf. I'm not sure how much Nightmare would have helped with Jasmine. If I get long Sleeps it could make it so I don't need any healing items, but if it wakes up the turn I use it I lose a turn. I think if nothing else I could use it the turn she Hyper Potions because I know it'll stay sleeping then.

I honestly feel worried for my Pokemon's levels. Haven't done any of Goldenrod (and barely any of even one surrounding route, much less the other two...or three?) but adding a Slow experience group Pokemon (Scyther) and bringing my somewhat underleveled team including said Scyther on par with Whitney probably might not be happening this time around. Any ideas on what to do?

Sounds like you would have been better off catching Wooper after Morty. I'd personally prioritize evolving Wooper, then Rattata then catching Scyther up to Quilava. If you need to grab the Gold Berry as well.

EDIT: I just realized I could have used Nightmare on Noctowl as well. This would have made Kingdra more consistent but I can't see it used for anything else. The risk of sleep ending and the turn being wasted just doesn't seem worth it.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

EDIT: I just realized I could have used Nightmare on Noctowl as well. This would have made Kingdra more consistent but I can't see it used for anything else. The risk of sleep ending and the turn being wasted just doesn't seem worth it.

The damage as well. Unless your attacks aren't doing more than 25% anyway, what's the point for gambling on that risk?

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I'm not evolving it. I'm not 100% sure but I think gym leaders will always use the move that KOs so Nightmare wouldn't have helped with Clair at 35 but would have if I survived Surf. I'm not sure how much Nightmare would have helped with Jasmine. If I get long Sleeps it could make it so I don't need any healing items, but if it wakes up the turn I use it I lose a turn. I think if nothing else I could use it the turn she Hyper Potions because I know it'll stay sleeping then.



Sounds like you would have been better off catching Wooper after Morty. I'd personally prioritize evolving Wooper, then Rattata then catching Scyther up to Quilava. If you need to grab the Gold Berry as well.

EDIT: I just realized I could have used Nightmare on Noctowl as well. This would have made Kingdra more consistent but I can't see it used for anything else. The risk of sleep ending and the turn being wasted just doesn't seem worth it.

Eh, I wanted Quagsire in time for Whitney (not that I'm sure I can get her there in time), but you're def correct.

Alternatively, I should've caught Rattata later :( Having too many Pokemon before a Gym Leader is not a good thing, especially in this game.

 

[Kioskate]

The damage as well. Unless your attacks aren't doing more than 25% anyway, what's the point for gambling on that risk?

I was 5HKOing Kingdra with Return. 50 Base Atk is that bad. I think it makes it interesting to consider if Return is actually necessary on Hoothoot. The fact that it's so bad with it is a large reason I wanted it should be D, but if it can get by without it maybe it's better than I thought. I think Nightmare could replace Return in major battles but it would make it worse for routes. You obviously don't want to Nightmare on routes so I feel like Hoothoot without Return should be D rank, so it would only be C rank if you accept needing return.

Eh, I wanted Quagsire in time for Whitney (not that I'm sure I can get her there in time), but you're def correct.

Alternatively, I should've caught Rattata later :( Having too many Pokemon before a Gym Leader is not a good thing, especially in this game.

I don't think it would be fair to catch Rattata later because so much of it's value is the early game. If you take late Rattata it would look unfairly worse than the other mid game normals. Unless you're using Chikorita Wooper seems to be a detriment before it evolves. Wooper isn't even great with Chikorita because they both do poorly against Scyther.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I was 5HKOing Kingdra with Return. 50 Base Atk is that bad. I think it makes it interesting to consider if Return is actually necessary on Hoothoot. The fact that it's so bad with it is a large reason I wanted it should be D, but if it can get by without it maybe it's better than I thought. I think Nightmare could replace Return in major battles but it would make it worse for routes. You obviously don't want to Nightmare on routes so I feel like Hoothoot without Return should be D rank, so it would only be C rank if you accept needing return.



I don't think it would be fair to catch Rattata later because so much of it's value is the early game. If you take late Rattata it would look unfairly worse than the other mid game normals. Unless you're using Chikorita Wooper seems to be a detriment before it evolves. Wooper isn't even great with Chikorita because they both do poorly against Scyther.

1. Man, Noctowl really is a sad sight when it comes to doing direct damage lol. Funny, given that my Noctowl was the last mon standing after fighting the E4 the first time I completed Pokemon Gold - I think their bulk and Hypnosis are the points to use. Return seems like a free TM - one you can easily obtain and harness by just training Hoothoot somewhat competently (ergo, not fainting literally every single time), so C should be fine IMO.

2. Fair. I'm just angry at myself for not catching Wooper much later, missing Whitney and Morty isn't even a bad thing lol given that Quagsire does well against literally everyone else and does poorly against Bugsy and not even that well against Whitney or Morty. I'm also wondering if the female Rattata isn't more of an impediment than she looks like, so I'm actually going to redo the test from scratch. Granbull at least has a naturally monstrous Attack stat, Raticate...doesn't.

Honestly, it really sounds as if we testers would do a lot better if we could have more frequent contact with one another. At least, I would.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I was 5HKOing Kingdra with Return. 50 Base Atk is that bad. I think it makes it interesting to consider if Return is actually necessary on Hoothoot. The fact that it's so bad with it is a large reason I wanted it should be D, but if it can get by without it maybe it's better than I thought. I think Nightmare could replace Return in major battles but it would make it worse for routes. You obviously don't want to Nightmare on routes so I feel like Hoothoot without Return should be D rank, so it would only be C rank if you accept needing return.



I don't think it would be fair to catch Rattata later because so much of it's value is the early game. If you take late Rattata it would look unfairly worse than the other mid game normals. Unless you're using Chikorita Wooper seems to be a detriment before it evolves. Wooper isn't even great with Chikorita because they both do poorly against Scyther.

Yikes.

Return, Fly, Hypnosis, Nightmare could work tho. What set are you running?

Nightmare would definitely be a good option for Steelix...

 

[aegon the unlikely]

My old Rattata was 3HKOing Bellsprouts with Quick Attack IIRC at L7 or so. My new one is solidly 2HKOing them at the same level. Clearly IVs matter, especially when you're using Pokemon who are more ''middle-of-the-road'' statwise than, say, Granbull (in Attack) or Kadabra (in Special).

This time, I caught a L2 Rattata in Route 29 at night - I find that Rattata is much more common at that time. After beating all available trainers and a wild L5 Hoothoot (just to get Cyndaquil to L11 when he was just a few experience points off), I challenge Falkner.

Falkner

Cyndaquil (L11): Using Smokescreen x3-x4 on Pidgey causes Pidgey to start missing Mud-Slaps like crazy, although landing Smokescreen consistently may be a little annoying as your accuracy is being whittled down as well. You should then switch to a teammate (as I did to Rattata) and then back to Cynda to reset the latter's accuracy. Interestingly, Pidgey started throwing out Tackles exclusively after I switched, all of which missed - even when Cynda returned to finish the job by Leering x2 and then Tackling x2, the little bird kept Tackling but missing and eventually fainting. This was more or less consistent for all three tries, though Pidgey managed to Tackle me twice the second try and Mud-Slap me once the third.

Using Smokescreen x3 on Pidgeotto - whom Cyndaquil outsped - caused him to miss FIVE Gusts in succession, allowing me to set up Leer x2. I then 4HKOed Pidgeotto with Tackle, winning the fight in spite of finally getting hit by two Gusts (one of which critted me, leaving me in the red).

On my first try I needed no healing items apart from Cyndaquil's held Berry, not even a Potion. On my second, I needed two Potions. On the third try, I needed three Potions but won in spite of being Mud-Slapped by Pidgey right before fighting Pidgeotto and not switching again. Ultimately this matchup is pretty luck dependent, though Cynda's ability to win is real - you just need to have a few Potions on hand. I'd say a C.

Rattata (L11): Quick Attack reliably 2HKOes Pidgey and 4HKOes (with a decent chance of 3HKOing) Pidgeotto. A held Berry makes this a mostly reliable victory for Rattata, though critical hits from Pidgeotto's Gust at the wrong moment might KO you. I'd say a B.

Bugsy

Quilava (L16): Ember OHKOes Metapod, reliably 3HKOes Scyther, and OHKOes Kakuna. Scyther's Quick Attack doesn't even 3HKO in return. You don't need Charcoal or any healing items whatsoever to clinch this matchup. Cyndaquil dominates this matchup so thoroughly I'd say a S.

Quilava levels up to L18 upon beating the three Bugs.

Rattata (L17): Hyper Fang reliably 2HKOs Metapod and Kakuna* both - even if they use Harden x1. Hyper Fang x2 reduces Scyther's HP to the red zone, at which point Quick Attack can pick him off. That being said, beating Scyther requires some prediction due to Quick Attack and Fury Cutter shenanigans - he will generally hit with QA when your HP is in the yellow zone even if he was using Fury Cutter originally, but he might also keep using FC and rampage through you anyway. This means even if you try to take advantage of the relatively little damage Quick Attack does so as to heal your little rodent and fire off a QA yourself to KO the mantis, FC might get you anyway with the increased damage. In addition, Hyper Fang's iffy accuracy and/or critical hits from Scyther might also interfere with a sweep attempt. For this reason, I'd say a C. You can win, but it's not safe.

*Hyper Fang + Quick Attack also KOs Kakuna through Harden x1. Overall, Rattata's power is amazing but his lack of bulk stinks for sure.

Rival - Azalea

Rattata (L17): Mud-Slap 3HKOs Gastly reliably, causing Hypnosis to miss on every try. Hyper Fang brings Zubat to red, at which point a QA finishes him off. Rattata outpaces Croconaw and 3HKOs with Hyper Fang reliably, even surviving a critical hit Water Gun into the yellow. Yep, Rattata can solo this matchup. At best, you may need a Potion or attach a Berry to Rattata - you won't need the healing until Croconaw comes around.

Attempted this battle three times - won each and every time without any further item support necessary. Very solid win, A.

Quilava (L18): Ember reliably 2HKOes Gastly after Smokescreen x1 destroys his Hypnosis accuracy (Gastly managed to pull off a Hypnosis on my third try but missed it every time during my first two tries). Even if you go to sleep, he can't do a thing to you so all you have to do is just attacking until you wake up lol. This of course is true for Rattata too. Smokescreen x3, Leer x3, and three Tackles - combined with Berry healing - took Croconaw down (Water Gun, if it hits, only 3HKOs barring crits or significant prior damage). Zubat gets reliably 2HKOed by Ember. I needed no healing items the first time (minus the Berry healing) but the second time needed a Super Potion and the third time needed 2 Super Potions.

Overall, another luck-based matchup, but Quilava is more than capable of contributing here and fodderizes Gastly as well as Zubat while also beating Croconaw (in addition to the other two) 2/3 of the time for me. Again, critical hits can ruin this. Note that I did not teach Quilava Swift, which would likely improve his chances of winning here by a fair bit. Add to that the fact I saved Fury Cutter for Scyther and taught Mud-Slap to Rattata instead - either of which would make things easier with or without Swift - and I'd say A sounds fair. Winning 2/3 of the time even without heavy item use and using even one of the three TMs you can get and use (normally) without heavy opportunity cost is impressive.

And that concludes Log 1! Time for average grades.

Rattata gets a solid B at punishing fodder trainers. His pre-Hyper Fang performance against NPCs isn't bad (and definitely more good than not), but it's not great either, so that part would be a C. After picking up Hyper Fang and acquiring the first badge boost, he hits far more like an A, therefore averaging at a B. Cyndaquil, in contrast, needs Ember to actually 2HKO stuff reliably - which, to his credit, he does just fine. Before that, he can 3HKO most opponents at best, like a D. Post-Ember, Rock-types wall him and so do Water-types, but everyone else gets reliably 3HKOed or even 2HKOed, so a C. After evolving into Quilava and entering Bugsy's gym, he wipes the floor with most fodder - including the rival's - so D, C, and A average at a C. Overall, Rattata is significantly better at KOing route stuff, non-boss Pokemon, and weaker boss Pokemon than Cyndaquil is.

Cyndaquil: Falkner (C), Fodder (C), Bugsy (S), Rival 2 (A) - Overall B performance
Rattata: Falkner (B), Fodder (B), Bugsy (C), Rival 2 (A) - Overall B performance

Kioskate, thanks for the tip! You're my hero today.

EDIT: Caught Scyther in the contest!

 

[Random Passerby]

Just here posting a little of my logs.

Team tested: Gastly, Bellsprout

Bonus: Totodile, Geodude (Assume Geodude and Totodile are the same levels as the team. I'm just grinding them in the wild for testing purposes)

Falkner

Team: Gastly Lv11, Bellsprout Lv11
Gastly and Bellsprout have a bad time here. Gastly can only Hypnosis but can't hit the Flying-types while Bellsprout's Vine Whip is resisted.
Your winning strategy would be to have Gastly Hypnosis Pidgey, then switch to Bellsprout to 3HKO that Pidgey with Warp + Vine Whip. Then, Hypnosis Pidgeotto and 2HKO with +4 Vine Whip. You cannot boost on Pidgey and win because Pidgeotto is faster than Bellsprout and 2HKO with Gust.

Team : Totodile Lv11
Totodile crushes the Gym with Rage as Pidgey hits it with weak Tackles.

Team : Geodude Lv11
Geodude can sweep this Gym easily with Defense Curl + Tackle. It might need to switch out if hit by too many accuracy debuffs or heal up with Berry if required.

Bugsy

Team: Gastly Lv18
Gastly can actually win against Scyther by Curse + Hypnosis as Fury Cutter does 1 to 2 damage before getting put to Sleep.

Team: Bellsprout Lv18
Bellsprout can sweep this Gym if you Sleep Powder Metapod, boost to +6 with Growth and 4HKO Scyther with Vine Whip. It might need Sleep Powder to hit against Scyther to pull this off though. It is also highly inefficient to do this.

Team : Totodile Lv17
Totodile crushes the Gym with Rage as the Metapod hits it with weak Tackles and winning the damage race against Scyther. It might need some healing though. Croconaw obviously fares better here.

Team : Geodude Lv15
Geodude can sweep this Gym easily with Rock Throw.

 

[Kioskate]

I beat the Elite 4 yesterday but was too lazy to post so here it is. Shellder is at a higher level than the others because I wasn't expecting it to do much so I gave it the rare candies I had.

Hoothoot Log

38 Noctowl beats all the Rival's pokemon 1v1 except Magneton
41 Noctowl doesn't 2HKO the 40 Xatu with Return, so you can use a bitter berry. You're slower than Xatu so you're only reliably killing one Exeggutor or Xatu. With an X Speed, X Accuracy and Bitter Berry I was able to sweep everything except Exeggutor as I'd been chipped down
too much.
41 Noctowl Solos Koga with an X Accuracy except for Forretress. You could try to beat Forretress with Nightmare but Explosion
will KO. You might need Antidotes too, but Koga never poisoned me.
41 Noctowl solos all except Machamp with an X Accuracy. Hitmontop can only Quick Attack so it would be easy to set up X Attacks
if you want to sweep. Rock Slide 2HKO'd
42 Noctowl solos Karen with an X Accuracy and sacking something to clear curse. Would be easy to spam x attack on Umbreon and sweep
43 Noctowl beats all of Lance except Aerodactyl 1v1 with a PrzCure Berry and X Accuracy but you'll need long sleeps to beat
more than 1. You'd need a lot of potions to sweep with X items.

Hoothoot did better than I expected at the Elite 4. It's special bulk really helps, letting it hit tank things like Thunder or crit Outrage to be able to sleep then KO. I thought speed would be a bigger problem but only the Pokemon with 95+ base Spe were faster (Xatu, Crobat, Gengar, Houndoom, Aerodactyl) I'm happy for it to stay in C now. It might be the worst Hypnosis user but sleep with X Accuracy is still broken with 50 base Atk..

Gastly Log

38 Haunter solos the Rival, I actually didn't even bother with an X Accuracy, although it would help for Golbat
41 Haunter only beats Jynx.
41 Haunter solos Koga with an X Accuracy
41 Haunter Solos Bruno with an X Accuracy. If something else beats Onix it's pretty reliable even without X Accuracy. Machamps Rock Slide and Hitmontop's Dig do 50% and Machamp can use Foresight instead of attacking. I only tested it once so I don't know if it's programmed to always do that or not.
41 Haunter beats Umbreon with an X accuracy and also beats Vileplume and Gengar
41 Haunter solos with an X Accuracy and Przcure berry .but you have to be careful managing your PP without Nightmare.
Dream Eater will 5HKO Dragonites so Nightmare can help but isn't needed.

Dream Eater was weaker than I was expecting but the recovery was appreciated for soloing Bruno and Lance as Dig+Rock Slide might have KO'd and Lance's pokemon often needed multiple Sleep so it let's you heal off the chip Damage. I still think Haunter deserves to be C, it's definitely as good as other Hypnosis users in the tier. The typing and speed make it better than Hoothoot but I think Drowzee is a little better even though it's slower because of the part of the game before you get Night Shade.

One thing I haven't talked about yet that is mostly relevant to the Gastly part of the game is that Gastly is in the Medium Slow experience group. I'm not going to tell you to track exp but compared to the Medium Fast group you only need 70% of the experience to reach 21 and 25. It is the fastest experience group to reach these levels, including the Fast group.

Shellder Log

37 Shellder beats Sneasel, Haunter and Kadabra while losing to the rest
44 Shellder is 1HKO'd by everything. Nevermeltice Blizzard does about 75% to Exeggutor.
44 Shellder can beat all of Koga 1v1 except Venomoth with an X Accuracy. Nevermeltice Blizzard just barely 2HKOs Crobat, so I don't think it would at level 41.
44 Shellder beats 1 Hitmon and Onix and you do 20% to Machamp before it 2HKO's. You could solo with X items while protecting on Hitmontop's Dig
44 Shellder beats Karen's Gengar
44 Shellder beats Aerodactyl and the 47 Dragonite without Thunder (yes, it loses to Charizard)

I think Shellder(GS) should definitely be E with Corsola. Their stats and movepool favor Corsola, with Shellder having access to Blizzard (Aurora Beam isn't worth much, 4HKOing Crobat so it only allows you to beat 1 Dragonite) while Corsola gets Mirror Coat, Defense Curl, Rollout and Recover. Corsola is bulkier on the special side and they are both about as slow Corsola has the better Spa while Shellder has better Atk but Corsola uses it's Atk better, with Rollout and Strength.

While the above seem comparably bad the huge advantage Corsola has over Shellder is their Exp group. Shellder being in the Slow group means it needs 60% more exp than Corsola to reach 40, meaning it needs to has to spend more time on routes compared to the rest of your team, and it really sucks at it. In gyms and the heading to Victory Road you constantly have to make sure to feed Shellder the few kills it can, or else it just falls behind.

Also I'm unsure but to get evolution stones in GS you need to obtain them in order, right? This would mean you need to catch Lickitung, your version's fire type and and breed a Pichu to evolve it in Kanto.

Magmar Log

37 Magmar beats all the Rival's Pokemon 1v1 but doesn't solo
41 Magmar can beat anything of Will's 1v1 and beat 4/5 by itself.
42 Magmar solos Koga. I'm pretty sure Forretress always uses Spikes so you get a free Sunny Day, letting you 2HKO Muk and Crobat
43 Magmar sweeps the Hitmons and can beat Onix 1v1. If you want to sweep just use Detect on Hitmontop's Digs to spam X Specials.
43 Magmar took no damage soloing Karen with an X Accuracy. Umbreon could have attacked a couple times if it wanted to. 1HKO's Houndoom
43 Magmar can beat Gyarados because it looks like it always uses rain dance before surf as well as Charizard.

Magmar's only bad matchups seem to be Chuck, Clair and Lance. You can beat 2/3 Dragonairs while also taking down two of Lance's Pokemon. It's great at routes too. I could easily see this rated the same as Kenya, but from how other's are experiencing Kenya to be that might mean it's more appropriate for Kenya to move down than for Magmar to move up.

Random Passerby

Are you evolving Gastly?

Yikes.

Return, Fly, Hypnosis, Nightmare could work tho. What set are you running?

Nightmare would definitely be a good option for Steelix...

I had Reflect as the last move, and was considering Rest. It's really useless but later became Confusion at 41 to beat Onix. I don't think Nightmare Hoothoot would be worth using on Onix because you'll lose to Screech Iron Tail. That's the same reason I didn't use Haunter there. You'll definitely need to use 2 sleeps, probably 3 or 4 and with a turn to X accuracy that seems pretty unreliable.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

It's honestly scary how good Scyther is. From the word go, he utterly destroys NPC Pokemon left and right with Headbutt alone in spite of not having STAB and with bulk as well as speed far outstripping the opposition in most cases. He's decimated opponents at a slight level advantage, Pokemon of comparable level and/or power with an elemental advantage (the dude with two Magmars, one of which even knows Fire Punch*, or the cops with Growlithe you can fight only at night). I also taught him Fury Cutter though I haven't really needed it yet. No, I haven't fought Whitney yet.

But I did decimate her gym, and all of my Pokemon are sitting pretty at L21. This is why you don't want to train 4 Pokemon before the 3rd gym.

*Also, yes, Scyther took a Fire Punch. He still won with zero item support. Ditto for the Growlithes and their Ember. For a Slow EXP Pokemon, Scyther's actually leveled up pretty quickly (at least IMO) and that too without even remotely inconveniencing his teammates - Rattata evolved into Raticate too. I guess this shows how the level curve actually is pretty decent in the early game but starts becoming garbage tier after gym 4. I still don't get why.

EDIT: Just gonna post my logs here.

Whitney

Whitney

Raticate (L21): Hyper Fang + Quick Attack reliably KOes Clefairy. Outspeeds Miltank and can at least 3HKO (I actually 2HKOed on two of three attempts even without a critical hit) with Hyper Fang after Tail Whip x1. A Gold Berry is all you need to insure the matchup, although I didn't even need it on my first try or my second one - only my third one. You can pick one up by making the Machop trade. Access to Dig would trivialize this matchup completely by forcing Miltank to reset Rollout - unfortunately I'm saving that TM for Quagsire. Overall a VERY solid matchup, easily A-Tier.

Quilava (L21): Attempted Rollout sweep. The first try, I crushed Clefairy but got my Rollout streak ended by a Stomp flinch even with my Gold Berry. The second time, I powered through Stomp without flinching and KOed Miltank without even needing my Gold Berry. Third try, succeeded without Miltank even using Stomp once (she used Rollout herself) and also without needing my Gold Berry. Like with Fury Cutter, easily C-Tier. 2/3 odds.

Scyther (L21): Attempted Fury Cutter sweep. Powered through Clefairy and Miltank, even in spite of missing a Fury Cutter while midsweep
against Clefairy and having to start over again while she was already in the red HP zone. Tanked a single Rollout into the yellow and took Miltank down with my third and fourth Fury Cutter strikes (basically a 2HKO on a super low HP Clefairy followed by a 2HKO on Miltank) and didn't even need my Gold Berry. Outpaced Miltank every time. Second try went smoothly without Fury Cutter ever missing - my Fury Cutter brought the cow to red in one hit, at which point Headbutt was enough to finish her off reliably. Third try, I brought Mirutanku to the yellow only to be hit by ATTRACT. I then fired off a Headbutt, but that only brought her to the red, and got screwed over by infatuation a couple of times :( I then ate two hits of Rollout, fainting. However, I brought Mirutanku to the red, at which point a Quick Attack from Raticate was enough to clean house. Overall, A-Tier*.

*Screw Attract. Miltank never used it against Quilava or Raticate or even other Pokemon in earlier runs (for the most part), so I count that an outlier.

Rival

Rival - Ecruteak City

Scyther (L24): Was able to rampage through Haunter and Magnemite with Fury Cutter, but at the cost of having HP dip to the red. Still OHKOed Zubat with Headbutt. Headbutt only 3HKOes Croconaw (with Leer, 2HKO), however, so you will need a Soda Pop (or two) to heal for sure by this point. You will also be well served holding a Przcureberry given Haunter's penchant for throwing out Licks and the fact Fury Cutter will take time to KO him. That being said, the fact Scyther can solo this matchup with little healing support makes this a B-Tier matchup.

Raticate (L24): Tail Whip + Mud-Slap takes care of Haunter. Mud-Slap 2HKOes Magnemite. Hyper Fang OHKOes Zubat and reliably 2HKOes Croconaw. A held Berry provides roughly enough healing to carry you through this match - a Fresh Water or Super Potion to be even safer, though I needed neither the first time, only a held Berry the second time, and only a (non-held) Bitter Berry as well as a Fresh Water the third time due to me missing Hyper Fang on Zubat and getting hit by Confuse Ray. If you use Strength and/or Dig, you pretty much eliminate any chance of missing and can safely OHKO Magnemite as well as Haunter without HP loss or status. A-Tier, pretty safe and reliable matchup.

Quilava (L24): Rollout took care of Haunter and Croconaw in one fell swoop - on all three tries! Even a critical hit Water Gun from Croconaw wasn't enough to stop my sweep. Ember 3HKOes Zubat (in case Zubat doesn't get included in Rollout) and OHKOes Magnemite. You might want to hold a Przcureberry and have a confusion-healing item handy in your bag, but that's all the healing you'll need - nothing more nor less. I didn't need any healing on either of my first two tries, just the third one. Quilava leveled up to L25 right before fighting Magnemite right afterwards. A-Tier matchup, B-Tier at worst given Rollout's opportunity cost issues and my last playthrough.

Morty

Morty

Raticate (L25): Tail Whip + Mud-Slap OHKOes Gastly. Tail Whip + Mud-Slap 2HKOes Haunter. Grew to L26 WINNING. Tail Whip + Mud-Slap almost always 3HKOes Gengar while making it harder for him to aim Hypnosis while Mint Berry negged the one Hypnosis that hit. You will need to heal likely by the time Haunter 2 comes in, and Mud-Slap reliably 2HKOes after a Tail Whip. I had to worry not only about HP but also PP to an extent so better pack an Ether, especially if they Mean Look you. Suffice to say that Mud-Slap's low PP really shows itself in this matchup. You can win, but you'll need to be conservative with Mud-Slaps and have some Super Potions/Fresh Waters on hand.* Use Tail Whip first against both the first Gastly and the first Haunter - they won't Mean Look or Hypnosis you in my experience - lead with Mud-Slap x1 against Gengar and Haunter, throw in Tail Whip x2 and Tail Whip x1 respectively, then resume Mud-Slapping. You win.

*An Awakening might not hurt either. 2 Super Potions, MAYBE 3, should do. Overall a winnable matchup, just not a super efficient one. I ran out of Mud-Slap PP on my first and third try, pulled through on my second Raticate can still reliably cleave through 3/4 of Morty's team and beat any of them solo (even potentially beat all 4 at least 1/3 of the time and/or with Ethers), it's beating all four back-to-bck that's the hard part. Also, if you wanna switch, you better do it either before Mean Look is cast, as that will put an end to your switching. If you have Dig instead of Mud-Slap, you can reliably OHKO Gastly and Haunter 1, usually OHKO Haunter 2, and reliably 2HKO Gengar. For this reason, B-Tier it is.

Scyther (L25): No. Even without missing Fury Cutter a single time and Mint Berry negging Hypnosis, the most Scyther could do for me was bring Gengar down to red (after KOing Gastly and Haunter 1) before fainting to passive damage. D-Tier it is.

Quilava (L25): Rollout sweep fell apart on first try due to missing one time (and Quilava fainted), succeeded on second try due to missing never, and failed on the third try due to being paralyzed and missing Haunter at the last second (he survived the initial hit with only a bit of HP left). Not a good place for Quilava, ironically worse than Whitney this time, though having access to Dig makes this a far more winnable matchup. B-Tier it is.

Average Grades:

Cyndaquil: Falkner (C), Fodder (C), Bugsy (S), Rival 2 (A), Whitney (C), Rival 3 (A), Morty (B) - Overall B performance
Rattata: Falkner (B), Fodder (B), Bugsy (C), Rival 2 (A), Whitney (A), Rival 3 (A), Morty (B) - Overall B+ performance
Scyther: Fodder (S), Whitney (A), Rival 3 (B), Morty (D) - Overall A performance

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Everyone at Lv. 30. Quilava at Lv. 31.

Vs. Jasmine (Gym 7)

Attempt 1 - Granbull vs Magnemite 1.

Fire Punch does 90%. So close...
Mag retaliates with Thunder Wave.

Seriously!? That's how we playing!?

Trying to get Fearow in against Steelix, so I'll just use a Hyper Potion. What was I thinking storing that Full Restore...

She sent out the other Magnemite. Sigh...
Might as well see how Quilava handles it with Flame Wheel.
OHKO. Niiiice.

Time for the real test...

*Surprised Fearow Face*

Steelix hits with a Screech. Iron Tail naturally OHKOs. All I needed to see. Reset.

Attempt 2 - Gonna give a Charcoal to Granbull...

And I got a full para on the 2nd Magnemite. Sigh... Reset.

Attempt 2.1 - No more playing nice.

Mag1 goes for TWave on Turn 1. Prz Berry kicked in. Fire Punch 2HKO.

Mag2 in. Blew it up with Dynamicpunch. OHKO'd so hard it must've been knocked all the way back to the Kanto Power Plant.

Steelix in. Dynamicpunch does a chunk of damage. Roughly 40%.

Steelix hits itself for pretty much nothing. Switching to Fire Punch for the extra Accuracy.

It does roughly the same damage as Dynamic, so if you don't wanna gamble on that, it's a valid option for Steelix. You definitely want it for other matchups like Jasmine's Magnemite and I'm counting on it to just nuke Karen's Umbreon before it gets going.

Steelix got burned. Match all but won. Waited to see if it'd get an attack off. Confusion cheesed it again. Burn finished it off.

Reset.

Attempt 3 - Quilava in the house.
Charcoal Flame Wheel OHKOs Mag1.

Steelix in. Flame Wheel does over 50%.

Steelix used Screech. Jasmine went for the Hyper Potion next turn.

Crit Wheel. We don't take kindly to items in this household. Lava would outspeed for the 2HKO anyway.

And another Flame Wheel to run over Mag 2. Cleanest Quilava sweep so far.

Attempt 4 - Quagsire starts off with a clean OHKO on Mag1 with Dig.

Steelix in. Gonna whack it with Mystic Water Surf before it can get Sunny Day up.

Now that's a lotta damage!

Jasmine naturally goes for a Hyper Potion and an Iron Tail.

Not even a 4HKO. 88/110HP left.

Surf 3HKOs under Sun and that's yet another clean sweep. Gonna wrap it up with the real run. Quag vs both Mag, Bull vs Steelix.

Attempt 5 - Dig makes short work of Mag1.
Bull vs Steelix. Dynamic misses. Iron Tail hits...

Aaaaand that's a bad matchup. 56 damage. 50/106HP left.

2nd one hits. Steelix hits itself. Gonna use a Fresh Water since Jasmine got a Hyper Potion.

Steelix whacks itself again. Went for the Fire Punch... And it burned. RNGeez, that was lucky.

And it hit itself again!

Conclusion

Fearow is deadweight vs. Jasmine.
It literally can't do anything in this matchup. Magnemite turns it into Kanto Fried Chicken with TBolt. Fearow cannot hurt Steelix.

It is safe to say that at this point, I'm not endorsing Spearow for S-Tier.
It loses to Whitney's Miltank, Chuck's Poliwrath, Pryce's Piloswine, and Jasmine's everything.

An S-Tier is broken by definition. It is literally a tier that goes beyond the standard A-F grading system. Spearow does not fit "broken" by any definition.

It is a very solid mon and excellent at route clearing, but it has several matchups where it's relegated to cleaning up the weaker mons of a team because it can't handle a Leader's Ace. An S-Tier mon is supposed to be your Ace.

It is likely going to wind up at A in my book.

Granbull has a rough matchup.
It's too reliant on Dynamicpunch because Fire Punch can't OHKO Magnemite even with Charcoal. It is 2HKO'd by Steelix and severely crippled by Magnemite, but as the logs showed, it can sweep easily if RNG goes its way. Dynamic got 50% Accuracy though. That's literally a coinflip.

Quilava has an extremely dominant matchup.
And more importantly, for the first time since Bugsy, it has a convincing win without requiring Rollout as a crutch. Nothing but praise on this one. It deserves a break.

Quagsire has an extremely dominant matchup.
It can handle this Gym with the greatest of ease even when severely underleveled. Definitely its best Gym matchup in the game.

 

[Kioskate]

I started another run on a different emulator that can trade so I'm using Golem, Gengar, Machamp and the trade evolution Psychic Slowking. I've decided that because Machop gets boosted experience and 0 Atk DVs for being female I'd keep it 3 levels above my party. This also lets me evolve them all at the same time. A 46 trade Machop would be a level 40 Machop without the exp boost and a level 20 Machop becomes 23 with the boost. I'm sure some people will disagree but even as a kid I gave traded pokemon 5 levels over my party because I just guessed 50% more exp would be 5 levels.

Geodude Log

10 Geodude got to 11 after beating Pidgey and Rock Throw took care of Pidgeotto. I used X Accuracy but a potion or two could be used in GS.
17 Geodude 1HKO's all of Bugsy
18 Geodude is slower than the rivals Gastly, but it still beat it and Zubat. I wasn't mean enough to test Bayleef.
19 Geodude lost to Razor Leaf and on the next attempt Water Gun. Gave up on Clefairy but beat Miltank with 31/49 HP left.
25 Golem is slower than all the ghosts but 1HKO's them so it's an easy sweep with a Mint Berry unless you're pretty unlucky and are slept twice.

Geodude is the best Pokemon for the first half of Johto, even without trading. Onix is also one of the best and I ranked it at D. The rules forcing you to use a Pokemon the entire run really hurts Onix and I look forward to seeing how badly Geodude falls off. Onix has great speed but awful attack while Golem is the opposite.

Gastly Log

17 Gastly solos Bugsy but the cocoons are slow, needing 20 licks. 4x resisting Fury Cutter makes it do 1, so it's easy to sleep before it builds too much.
17 Gastly can beat his Gastly but if you have something else that handles it well that's better due to status. Bayleef can be Hypnosis and Cursed or you can use a potion. Zubat is a bad matchup.
19 Gastly solos with enough items. You want to hypnosis then curse Clefairy and use a potion, x accuracy and x speed. Hypnosis and Curse Miltank, At which point I was at 20 hp and rollout did 10 damage. You might need a second potion if you
miss sleep on clefairy and it damages you or Miltank gets an early wake.
25 Gengar 1HKO's Gastly, 2HKO's Haunter and 3HKO's Gengar. Evolving didn't change this fight. You can beat Gastly and Haunter while leaving Gengar asleep and damaged with an X Accuracy and Mint Berry.

I've already talked about Gastly's early game but one thing I didn't point out because I had Hoothoot was that a lot of teams won't be able to weaken Gastly, who has a 35% catch rate. I had to reset my first try because I used 2 balls on Geodude and then failed with the 3 I had.

Machop Log

22 Machop lost 17 HP easily solosing Whitney,
28 Machamp is only faster than Gastly. Dig 1HKO's everything but you can be slept and cursed so you can beat Gengar and Gastly with a Mint Berry but are better off using something else for the Haunter. I didn't think about it until just not but I wonder if Mud Slap would 1HKO Gastly. Replacing Headbutt with it wouldn't be a problem as I'm about to get Strength.

I was surprised to be slower than the Haunter with a 7 level advantage. I hope that speed isn't too big of a problem as the run progresses.

Volt-Ikazuchi

I've had runs that had problems with Jasmine and just caught a wild Quagsire to beat her. Even in the low 20's you beat Steelix

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Random Passerby, do we still need more people to try the big cows or have we decided where they'll be (A or B)?

Kioskate, interesting points about Geodude. Makes me wonder if Onix really deserves to languish in D. Another Pokemon I wanna test...