Generation 9 CAP Updates Hub

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snake_rattler

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Here are the results of Session 5!

Necturna:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Grassy Glide, Skitter Smack)
  • Retained past gen moves: Leaf Blade, Spite
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Trailblaze, Confuse Ray
  • New Competitive Move: Shell Smash
Mollux:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack or Corrosive Gas)
  • Retained past gen moves: Sludge Wave
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: None
  • New Competitive Move: Hydro Pump
Voodoom:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Burning Jealousy, Rising Voltage, Lash Out, Coaching)
  • Retained past gen moves: Knock Off, Throat Chop, Payback, Vacuum Wave, Torment
  • Replace Grudge with Torment, Revenge with Mach Punch in LU Pool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Rock Tomb
  • New Competitive Move: Volt Switch
Cyclohm:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Rising Voltage)
  • Retained past gen moves: Weather Ball, Breaking Swipe
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Chilling Water
  • New Competitive Move: Defog
You have 48 hours to voice any objections to these updates. Reminder that the next session is tomorrow at 10 AM EST!

Also, regarding Heal Bell: We are treating Heal Bell as effectively unobtainable in the game. There are no users of the move in the game since Blissey cannot actually run the move. However, if Heal Bell does end up becoming available again, we will review the CAPs who previously had the move for which ones should receive it in Gen 9.
 
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I wasn't around for the initial session so I'm not sure if suggesting new moves is allowed in this stage, but has Mortal Spin been considered for Cyclohm as opposed to Defog? I just think only removing only your hazards is really valuable, which is why I personally prefer it over Defog. Sure Steel types block it by Cyclohm runs Flamethrower so that shouldn't be an issue. Also standard poison is a weak status effect. And yes it might be a signature move but Malaconda got Grav Apple.
 

snake_rattler

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Here are the results of Session 6!

Volkraken:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Flip Turn, Burning Jealousy, Scorching Sands, or Skitter Smack)
  • Retained past gen moves: Infestation
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Pounce, Flare Blitz
  • New Competitive Move: Extrasensory
Pajantom:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None
  • Retained past gen moves: Dream Eater, Infestation, Sand Tomb
  • Replace Laser Focus with Sand Tomb, Dual Chop with Shadow Claw in LU Pool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Confuse Ray
  • New Competitive Move: Taunt
Krilowatt:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Rising Voltage or Flip Turn)
  • Retained past gen moves: Whirlpool
  • Replace Mind Reader with Whirlpool in LU Pool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Pounce, Chilling Water
  • New Competitive Move: None
Saharaja:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Scorching Sands or Lash Out)
  • Retained past gen moves: High Horsepower, Pay Day
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Rain Dance, Trailblaze, Chilling Water
  • New Competitive Move: None
You have 48 hours to voice any objections to these updates. Reminder that the next session is tonight at 6 PM EST!
 

snake_rattler

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Here are the results of Session 7!

Arghonaut:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack, Coaching, or Lash Out)
  • Retained past gen moves: Superpower, Brine, Torment
  • Replace Revenge with Aqua Cutter, Scald with Liquidation, Submission with Superpower in LU
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Chilling Water, Take Down
  • New Competitive Move: None
Jumbao:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Grassy Glide or Misty Explosion)
  • Retained past gen moves: Superpower, Shore Up
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Trailblaze
  • New Competitive Move: None
Fidgit:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Corrosive Gas or Scorching Sands)
  • Retained past gen moves: Self-Destruct, Magic Room, Wonder Room, Block
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Pounce, Ice Spinner
  • New Competitive Move: Healing Wish
Revenankh:
  • Retained IoA Moves: Poltergeist (not retaining Coaching)
  • Retained past gen moves: Ancient Power, Power Whip
  • Replace Revenge with Poltergeist in LU
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Thunder Punch, Take Down, Confuse Ray, Close Combat
  • New Competitive Move: None
You have 48 hours to voice any objections to these updates. Reminder that the next and final session is tomorrow at 10 AM EST!
 

snake_rattler

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Here are the results from Session 8!

Astrolotl:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Scorching Sands and Meteor Beam)
  • Retained past gen moves: Safeguard
  • Replace Heal Bell with Safeguard in LU
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Flame Charge
  • New Competitive Move: None
Equilibra:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Steel Roller)
  • Retained past gen moves: Gravity
  • Replace Mind Reader with Gravity in LU
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Ice Spinner, Heavy Slam
  • New Competitive Move: None
Cawmodore:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Dual Wingbeat)
  • Retained past gen moves: Knock Off, Endeavor
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Chilling Water, Take Down, Air Cutter
  • New Competitive Move: None
Pyroak:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Grassy Glide, Burning Jealousy, Scorching Sands, or Terrain Pulse)
  • Retained past gen moves: Heat Crash, Worry Seed
  • If applicable, Replace Burn Up with Overheat in LU
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Trailblaze
  • New Competitive Move: None
Venomicon:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Dual Wingbeat)
  • Retained past gen moves: None
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Tailwind, Acid Spray
  • New Competitive Move: None
You have 48 hours to voice any objections to these updates. This was the final session, so look forward to implementation within the next week!
 
I do not object to the lack of additions, as these are some of the CAPs that don't need extra competitive moves. These five already have what they need and want.
 
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Rabia

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Astrolotl probably should be revisited. A lot of people brought up throughout Generation 8 that its nerfs ended up being a bit overzealous in scope and removed moves that really weren't at the core of the problem. While removals of Wish, Knock Off, and Toxic were certainly necessary, I think returning to it Trick or Explosion should be considered as a way to rectify what, imo, was a mistake during the nerfing process.
 

quziel

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Hey, unsure if we're at 48 hours, but wanted to object to Poltergeist on Revenankh (and to a lesser extent meteor beam on strata). I really don't like setting the precedent that we can give caps de-factor signature moves, and I worry about how it could affect any future processes. This sorta implicitly says that any future process has to consider any "snapped but clickable moves", which opens a can of worms I really don't want open. I admittedly feel more strongly about Poltergeist on Rev than Meteor Beam on strata, as Strata was far more defined by Meteor Beam than Rev was by Poltergeist, but yeah. If needed we can give rev some kinda compensatory move.
 

spoo

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re: astrolotl, I'm more or less indifferent about revisiting its update, but something doesn't sit right with me about making a competitive change in SV based on competitive factors from SS; I think if we were to give it a new move, it should be on that move's merits in this metagame alone. this is also compounded by the fact that trick or explosion presumably wouldn't be all that good anyways, with healing wish already being at least comparable to trick in its usefulness on scarf, and explosion being relegated to niche trapping sets with fire spin. if we're going to give it a new move, wouldn't we want it to be a bit more useful? (though I honestly don't think that the mon needs much help in the first place)

re: rev/strata, again I'm mostly indifferent about whether these mons keep/lose polt and beam respectively, but I do think that the same decision should be applied to both of them. to me this is less of an issue about preserving their viability or identity and more about consistency and precedent w.r.t. distributing moves that nothing else learns ("de-facto signature moves"). i think if we're concerned about viability, then there are other moves we could hand out (SD on rev for example), and if we're concerned about the identity of strata/rev being tied to these moves, then, well, we shouldn't be; there's a plethora of mons that underwent identity changes during this generational shift, it's perfectly normal and even expected. so i think that the issue of "should this cap be the only mon that learns the move?" is the only one we need to worry about. ftr i think our decision to not hand out heal bell on anything probably indicates that we should hold off on polt/beam too but i'm also not that versed in movepool precedent
 

snake_rattler

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Alrighty, it seems that we need to revisit Astrolotl, Revenankh, and Stratagem. Stratagem is being considered as it is a special case due to its similarity with Revenankh. Please keep in mind that I gauge the community's opinion by number of posts in this thread. That is, if you think one of the following needs to go or not go to poll, do send a quick reply in the thread!

Regarding Astrolotl: Should Trick or Explosion (as suggested by rabia) go to poll as Astrolotl's New Competitive Move? Are there any reasonable alternative options that we could give to Astrolotl as a New Competitive Move?

Regarding Revenankh: Should Revenankh retaining Poltergeist (as suggested by quziel) go to poll? If yes, are there any reasonable alternative options that we could give to Revenankh as a New Competitive Move to poll against Poltergeist?

Regarding Stratagem: Should Stratagem retaining Meteor Beam (as suggested by quziel) go to poll? If yes, are there any reasonable alternative options that we could give to Stratagem as a New Competitive Move?

You have 24 hours to respond!
 

MrDollSteak

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Alrighty, it seems that we need to revisit Astrolotl, Revenankh, and Stratagem. Stratagem is being considered as it is a special case due to its similarity with Revenankh. Please keep in mind that I gauge the community's opinion by number of posts in this thread. That is, if you think one of the following needs to go or not go to poll, do send a quick reply in the thread!

Regarding Astrolotl: Should Trick or Explosion (as suggested by rabia) go to poll as Astrolotl's New Competitive Move? Are there any reasonable alternative options that we could give to Astrolotl as a New Competitive Move?

Regarding Revenankh: Should Revenankh retaining Poltergeist (as suggested by quziel) go to poll? If yes, are there any reasonable alternative options that we could give to Revenankh as a New Competitive Move to poll against Poltergeist?

Regarding Stratagem: Should Stratagem retaining Meteor Beam (as suggested by quziel) go to poll? If yes, are there any reasonable alternative options that we could give to Stratagem as a New Competitive Move?

You have 24 hours to respond!
I agree that Astrolotl should go to a poll. On the one hand I don't think it realistically needs anything else, but at the same time I think settling the matter as The Mystery Duck suggests with No Competitive Move alongside the previous moves would be the best way to resolve the matter.

As for Poltergeist and Meteor Beam, I really don't think they need to be revised. Although there is some awkwardness in terms of them being granted functional signature moves, the fact that some of the IoA moves have been given to existing Gen 9 pokemon is enough of a flavour precedent in my mind to justify them retaining these moves that were deemed necessary as far as competitive inclusions. Since there are no mechanical problems I don't think we are taking a step towards returning custom elements. I similarly don't think that these moves automatically set a precedent that would allow for CAP 32 or beyond to receive access to any of the IoA moves automatically without argument. Like always with our processes, we can treat these moves as banned, unless a specific concept calls upon them. Both moves received overwhelming support on Discord for primarily competitive reasons, and thus I think it would be a bit of a disservice for them to be removed for primarily flavour concerns (ironic coming from a former flavour mod I know).
 

SHSP

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Disagree that Lotl needs any sort of a touch up, but I don’t feel particularly strongly about it. Neither move in question is particularly impactful I’d imagine, but I’ve been a proponent of not giving already-viable mons new tools outside of trends and this is no exception here.

With regards to Rev and Strata, I didn’t like the inclusion of either move. Giving out moves that would be exclusive to this meta rather than what we base it on (OU) rubs me the wrong way overall. MBeam Gem at least had the argument we discussed mid-update, where it was effectively the core of the mon’s whole identity for almost an entire generation, and though I voted against it I could see the reasoning. Nothing about Polt on Rev fits that criteria other than it being used on most sets- I’d argue the core of the mon was priority Drain Punch, not strong physical ghost STAB.
 
I think while yes, we should hold a second vote to see if people's opinions on the IoA tutors still hold, I personally agree with MDS' assessment. Meteor Beam was a hugely identifiable aspect of Strata's kit in a lot of people's eyes. Rev is the more ambiguous of the two, and it's been pointed out that poltergeist isn't really necessary for his function. However, the other physical ghost options that we could vote on are questionable. Either historically too weak for it to use or the new additions are arguably too strong to give to it as a substitute. Poltergeist is a strong middle ground move for it and having that strong secondary stab is part of the reason it was good last gen. Me personally, I think these two being the only two users of their respective moves are fine, but I wouldn't be too upset if Poltergeist was passed over on Rev.

Afaik for Astro, it's fine as is and idk what trick and explosion really do for it.
 

shnowshner

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I think wanting to take things slowly isn't a bad idea if avoiding any sort of sketchy precedent is desirable: there's not really a discernable pattern to how the IoA moves were distributed as some are fairly limited, some are signatures, and some are just completely unused. From a design standpoint, there's nothing more unusual about Stratagem/Revenankh learning Meteor Beam/Poltergeist compared to Arboliva/Armarouge learning Terrain Pulse/Expanding Force. The sentiment that these two moves would introduce elements outside of OU play does sound strange considering much of CAP would be unfamiliar territory, especially when the moves in question are both programmed into the game and were used on the CAPs prior to SS. I understand that keeping CAP somewhat familiar to OU is something we want to keep in mind, but honestly this feels like a moot point when related to these two moves specifically given how extensively they were used in the past both inside and outside of CAP.

To me the strongest argument is that they aren't really necessary inclusions at this moment if the main focus of movepool updates was to align ourselves with Gen 9's standard while reasonably preserving any competitive niches a CAP had. Given how movepools were seriously overhauled this generation, it's hard to justify handing out Meteor Beam or Poltergeist to anything when our only basis is "well, other old moves were only given to specific mons, so why can't these?" It kinda ignores the way Pokemon are made and the intentions of GameFreak when making such decisions. If both these moves are unused, it's possible GameFreak did that for balance reasons instead of a lack of "suitable" users. This is slightly complicated by the fact that many unused moves are still called by Metronome afaik, so the actual reason is hard to really predict.

As for the CAPs themselves, I feel like it would be smart to just wait and see where things go as far as potential updates we'll need to do in case of DLC. Gem is a perfectly fine mon as-is, and though it'd appreciate the power boost, Rev is sorta stuck between a rock (tera fairy garganacl) and a hard place (meta full of unaware) anyhow. It'll likely get even worse once Hisuian Zoroark gets released assuming its OU material.

Nobody has suggested potential replacements for these so I'll get the ball rolling there.
Stratagem:
  1. Spikes. This move has seen a significant increase in distribution in SV. A majority of this is on Ground-types, but there are exceptions in Sudowoodo and Vespiquen. The move fits thematically on the mon (glimmora is pretty similar and it certainly works better than on the rock tree) and could be useful as either part of a lead set or simply a midground option.
  2. Thunderbolt. Might be nice for certain sets, mostly because it hits Waters SE while also helping versus Corv and doing more to the likes of Pex. Also somewhat encourages the use of Tera Electric for the funny no weaknesses combo. Energy Ball is generally stronger for this mon given it hits Waters + Grounds so this shouldn't be too powerful of an inclusion.
  3. Flash Cannon. Pretty underwhelming overall since you've got STAB Paleo Wave but I think it's like, barely viable given how common Tera Fairy mons are. Gem lacks a way to hit Fairy-types for Super Effective damage in its kit and this could be useful for situations where its matched against common abusers like Dirge or Garg, the latter moreso since Flash hits its base typing SE. Like Electric, Steel + Levitate is slightly more reasonable as well. If anything this is the safest inclusion I liked and for that reason I feel its worth mentioning.
Revenankh
  1. Swords Dance. This doesn't do anything to solve the problems you face versus Unaware stuff but against more offensive teams the higher boost in power would be nice.
  2. Worry Seed. Okay so what you do here is simply remove Unaware/Purifying Salt and make the situation more awkward for your opponent. I have not thought about where this would fit on your moveset.
  3. Strength Sap. I spent way too long looking for anything to give this pos. Triage Strength Sap is incredibly silly and yet I'm not sure how good it'd even be. This would be the second Ghost-type we give the move to and just me mentioning it has surely given SHSP an aneurism but it's really hard to think of anything Revenankh could use that both makes sense and actually does something of note.
  4. Do nothing and hope they bring back Poltergeist/introduce a Physical Ghost move that isn't batshit insane or worthless. Inhale copious amounts of copium and simply reminisce of the days where you struck fear into the hearts of men.
 

snake_rattler

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Just dropping in to post as a user because I have a few thoughts:

For Stratagem, I'd like to throw Focus Energy in as an alternative to Meteor Beam. Focus Energy seems like a pretty natural inclusion on Sniper Pokemon, and the price for its power losing its Spikes / Ground immunity and having its item slot decided if running Sniper.

Stratagem @ Scope Lens
Ability: Sniper
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Energy
- Paleo Wave
- Energy Ball
- Fire Blast
252 SpA Sniper Tera Grass Stratagem Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Arghonaut on a critical hit: 468-552 (113 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Sniper Stratagem Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 132 SpD Equilibra on a critical hit: 396-468 (97 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Sniper Stratagem Paleo Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge on a critical hit: 513-606 (124.8 - 147.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO


For Revenankh, Swords Dance seems like a pretty decent inclusion, especially if it's losing access to Poltergeist. Otherwise, Revnenakh has to deal with a movepool with generally low base power moves (aside from Power Whip and Earthquake). It leans into the priority Drain Punch identity that SHSP brought up.

For Astrolotl, I really enjoyed Explosion before it was removed in its first nerf last gen. Explosion was viewed as an auxiliary move at the time. That is, when we removed Toxic, we also wanted to remove Explosion and Trick to reduce set variance. Then, the second nerf removed Knock Off and Wish, which further limited its movepool. I think Explosion would be a cool move to give it back. I know propping up concept way after the fact isn't popular, but Astrolotl being able to combine Fire Lash + Explosion to simulate Gen 4 Explosion tactics is "offensive support" in its purest form.
 

D2TheW

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CAP Circuit Champion
Whaddup I'm here to quickly advocate for keeping both beam and polt, especially beam.

Gem
I understand why people are put off by giving out moves that are now exclusive but personally I don't subscribe to this idea. It sets a weird precedent but I think it's preferable to the alternative precedent where we continue to bend over backwards and make life harder for ourselves to accommodate Gamefreaks nonsensical whims. Gem with beam is one of the best caps in recent metas in terms of being both viable and non problematic, down entirely to the addition of meteor beam. This is obviously in what is now an old meta, but I think it is a reasonable assumption that gem will continue to be good in sv with beam. Gem is the platonic ideal for cap mons, a mon that is viable that needs neither buff nor nerfs, a mon that just works. And the reason it works is because it can make excellent use of a move that, as I understand it, is legal. There's a lot of work to be done on a bunch of other caps, why burden ourselves with fixing what isn't broken for the sake of a minor optics issue? Why risk killing/breaking a mon that's already fine? I just don't see the point.

Rev
Polt on rev is less clear cut as a case, as revs place in the meta is much less assured. That said I think it should keep polt on the same grounds; we should not be constantly kneecapping ourselves just because gamefreak chucked a toy out of their pram for reasons we can't fathom. Polt on rev has worked before we might as well give it a shot before we go to god knows what lengths to rework this mon in a meta that's probably gonna change dramatically in less than a few months. It'll probably still be bad but cest la vie, at least it'll be consistent with the decision to keep beam. If this gets cut I won't really mind but I'll still disagree with it on principle.

Gamefreaks intentions
Another point on this, this one a bit more speculative but still reasonable imo. Gamefreak cut a lot of moves but they didn't cut these, which presumably means they do plan to give them out at some point. Perhaps not, perhaps these moves upset their sensibilities for some god forsaken reason, perhaps Masuda got swept by a Nihilego on ladder and cut the move out of rage, perhaps these moves are effectively dead but they didn't cut them because the ice cream truck showed up, who fucking knows. Fuck Gamefreak and fuck their intentions. As far as I'm concerned, these moves are in the code, are legal and as such are fair game. Gamefreak is gonna fuck with our toolbox at every available opportunity so we might as well use the tools we have while we have them.

Other additions
If we do decide to cut these moves I strongly believe we should wait until home before making any decisions on these fellas unless we get info that home is forever away. We already know how working in temporary meta states can end up, s/o the maw.

Astro
Now to big lotl, which frankly I'm somewhat ambivalent on. I'd love trick on lotl so much but the justification is pretty shaky. Not so shaky that I have any strong disagreement with it, but shaky nonetheless. If we give it trick I'll be delighted, if not, astro will stay doin what it do.

The main reason I wanted to talk about astro is explosion. I think it's understandable to want include explosion on any slate for giving astro a move as, like trick, it's a move that probably shouldn't have been removed. That said, for the love of god don't actually slate it. Explosion saw fuck all use when it was removed, with its only use being on gimmick fire spin sets that as far as I can find, only ever existed in the land of theorymonning. This move got fuck all use when it was on this mon the first time and will see fuck all use if we give it back and I can guarantee that. Explosion gives us the worst of both worlds, as we will end up creating a potentially peculiar precedent by giving a very viable mon another competitive move for weird reasons while also not actually giving it anything of value. Trick is a good move, with potentially good meta ramifications by improving a scarfer that can revenge a lot of the more annoying offensive mons (*cough* pao *cough*).

TL:DR keep polt, definitely keep beam, slate trick, don't slate explosion, fuck Gamefreak
 

snake_rattler

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Here is what will be polled:

Code:
Retain Both Meteor Beam and Poltergeist
Retain Neither Meteor Beam nor Poltergeist
Given that Astrolotl has been and continues to be a very functional Pokemon, I'm holding it to a higher standard. Many also pointed out the shaky reasoning to returning Astrolotl either of these moves. Thus, I'm deciding not to send Astrolotl to a poll.

Regarding Stratagem and Revenankh, it seems correct that we should poll on Meteor Beam and Poltergeist formally, on whether or not we as a project should allow those moves to be kept on principle, rather than a case-by-case basis. If neither are kept, I will continue the discussion around potential alternative options open, and a separate poll will be conducted for them. A reminder: The reasoning to retain these two Isle of Armor moves specifically were that they were integral to Stratagem and Revenankh's performance last generation. The live Discord chat did not consider any other CAP to use their respective Isle of Armor moves to the same degree.

Keep an eye out for this poll!
 

snake_rattler

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In case you missed the poll results, Stratagem will retain Meteor Beam, and Revenankh will retain Poltergeist. With these changes set, no new competitive moves will be considered for either CAP.

And with that, Generation 9 CAP Updates are complete. The final steps towards implementation are being completed now, and you should be able to expect to see updated CAPs by next week. Thank you to everyone who participated in the Discord livechat sessions, to the CAP Moderators who helped run the livechats behind the scenes, and to those who posted in this thread. Special thanks to Wulfanator for coding in all the changes and making it easy to run the livechat sessions! I think that this format for updates went a lot more smoothly than previous generations' updates and overall went very well.

I'm going to lock this thread - feel free to post any sets you think will be good or you've found success with in battles in the SV CAP Metagame Discussion Thread!

edit: Please note that all changes decided by the Discord livechats and edits made through forum polls have been documented in the OP of this thread.
 
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