Generation 9 CAP Updates Hub

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snake_rattler

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This thread will centralize all information regarding Generation 9 CAP Updates. Please see this PRC thread for general information and this PRC thread for the resolution regarding Necturna.

Please see the following regarding how the updates process will function. Please note that discussion will take place on the CAP Discord at the times scheduled below. If you cannot make the discussion time, please keep an eye on this thread to voice any opinions.

Based on the feedback from the thread, we'll move forward with the following process:
  1. CAP Moderators post a Generation 9 Updates thread, which will serve as a hub for Generation 9 Updates.
  2. The scheduled date and time for the first batch of CAPs to be updated will be posted in this thread.
  3. At that scheduled time, we will convene on Discord to discuss the batch of CAPs. At least one CAP Moderator will lead the discussion and ensure that movepool additions are not excessive. These are the following discussion points for each CAP:
    1. The fate of its Isle of Armor tutor moves
    2. The fate of its Swords/Shield transfer moves
    3. Its level-up movepool gaps
    4. Any applicable movepool trends new in Scarlet and Violet
    5. Whether or not it will get a new, competitively-relevant move, and (if it will) what that ONE move will be (this move does not need to be introduced in Generation 9)
  4. The results of the Discord discussion will be summarized in the Generation 9 Updates Thread, and users will have up to 48 hours to voice any objections to the proposed changes. Heavily contested additions could be put up to a vote, if necessary. Additionally, the next scheduled date and time for the next batch of caps will be posted in the thread.
  5. Repeat Steps 3 and 4 until all CAPs have been updated.
Notes:
  • Retaining old moves (such as Knock Off Malaconda) OR acquiring new moves based on movepool trends (such as Ice Spinner Syclant) will NOT count as the "one new competitively-relevant move" outlined above.
  • Adding new competitively-relevant moves to "stronger" CAPs will be under higher scrutiny. As always, signature moves will be held with higher scrutiny than non-signature moves. Legendary signature moves are not allowed, as always.
  • The CAP Moderator leading discussion will have discretion to steer discussion away from "obviously" broken movepool additions. For each CAP in the batch, we will discuss these as applicable.
Preliminary updates already implemented on Showdown! at the posting of this thread (credit to Wulfanator):
  • Updated level-up levels to fix calculation errors
  • Deleted moves purged from level-up pools
  • Scald removed from Arghonaut level-up
  • Scald remains in Volkraken level-up (due to sharing typing with Volcanion)
  • Overlapping Gen 8 TM/TRs and Gen 9 TMs kept (i.e.: Krilowatt no longer learns Scald)
  • Tera Blast added to all learnsets except Protowatt
  • Snowscape treated as a 1-to-1 replacement for Hail
Discussion Points (for each CAP):
  1. The fate of its Isle of Armor tutor moves
  2. The fate of its Swords/Shield transfer moves
  3. Its level-up movepool gaps
  4. Any applicable movepool trends new in Scarlet and Violet
  5. Whether or not it will get a new, competitively-relevant move, and (if it will) what that ONE move will be (this move does not need to be introduced in Generation 9)
Schedule:
  • Session 1: Friday (1/13/2023) at 6 PM EST
    • Stratagem / Smokomodo / Crucibelle / Naviathan
  • Session 2: Saturday (1/14/2023) at 10 AM EST
    • Malaconda / Plasmanta / Snaelstrom / Syclant
  • Session 3: Saturday (1/14/2023) at 6 PM EST
    • Caribolt / Miasmaw / Kitsunoh / Kerfluffle
  • Session 4: Sunday (1/15/2023) at 10 AM EST
    • Chromera / Colossoil / Aurumoth / Tomohawk
  • Session 5: Friday (1/20/2023) at 6 PM EST
    • Necturna / Mollux / Voodoom / Cyclohm
  • Session 6: Saturday (1/21/2023) at 10 AM EST
    • Volkraken / Pajantom / Krilowatt / Saharaja
  • Session 7: Saturday (1/21/2023) at 6 PM EST
    • Arghonaut / Jumbao / Fidgit / Revenankh
  • Session 8: Sunday (1/22/2023) at 10 AM EST
    • Astrolotl / Equilibra / Cawmodore / Pyroak / Venomicon
Note: CAPs can be swapped around if needed.

Syclant:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack or Triple Axel)
  • Retained past gen moves: Pin Missile, Bug Bite
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Close Combat, Ice Spinner, Pounce, Trailblaze
  • New Competitive Move: None
Revenankh:
  • Retained IoA Moves: Poltergeist (not retaining Coaching)
  • Retained past gen moves: Ancient Power, Power Whip
  • Replace Revenge with Poltergeist in LU
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Thunder Punch, Take Down, Confuse Ray, Close Combat
  • New Competitive Move: None
Pyroak:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Grassy Glide, Burning Jealousy, Scorching Sands, or Terrain Pulse)
  • Retained past gen moves: Heat Crash, Worry Seed
  • If applicable, Replace Burn Up with Overheat in LU
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Trailblaze
  • New Competitive Move: None
Fidgit:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Corrosive Gas or Scorching Sands)
  • Retained past gen moves: Self-Destruct, Magic Room, Wonder Room, Block
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Pounce, Ice Spinner
  • New Competitive Move: Healing Wish
Stratagem:
  • Retained IoA Moves: Meteor Beam
  • Retained past gen moves: Rock Polish, Smack Down, Explosion
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Rock Throw, Iron Defense
  • New Competitive Move: None
Arghonaut:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack, Coaching, or Lash Out)
  • Retained past gen moves: Superpower, Brine, Torment
  • Replace Revenge with Aqua Cutter, Scald with Liquidation, Submission with Superpower in LU
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Chilling Water, Take Down
  • New Competitive Move: None
Kitsunoh:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack or Poltergeist)
  • Retained past gen moves: Pain Split, Knock Off, Iron Tail
  • Replace Revenge with Knock Off in LU pool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Confuse Ray, Night Shade, Pounce
  • New Competitive Move: Strength Sap
Cyclohm:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Rising Voltage)
  • Retained past gen moves: Weather Ball, Breaking Swipe
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Chilling Water
  • New Competitive Move: Defog
Colossoil:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Lash Out or Scorching Sands)
  • Retained past gen moves: Brutal Swing, Payback, Superpower, Aqua Tail, Wide Guard, Block
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Ice Spinner, Stealth Rock, Take Down, Mud Shot
  • New Competitive Move: Headlong Rush
Krilowatt:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Rising Voltage or Flip Turn)
  • Retained past gen moves: Whirlpool
  • Replace Mind Reader with Whirlpool in LU Pool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Pounce, Chilling Water
  • New Competitive Move: None
Voodoom:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Burning Jealousy, Rising Voltage, Lash Out, Coaching)
  • Retained past gen moves: Knock Off, Throat Chop, Payback, Vacuum Wave, Torment
  • Replace Grudge with Torment, Revenge with Mach Punch in LU Pool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Rock Tomb
  • New Competitive Move: Volt Switch
Tomohawk:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Coaching or Dual Wingbeat)
  • Retained past gen moves: None
  • Shift all of its moves to remove movepool gaps
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Mud Slap, Air Cutter, Takedown, Trailblaze
  • New Competitive Move: Body Press
Necturna:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Grassy Glide, Skitter Smack)
  • Retained past gen moves: Leaf Blade, Spite
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Trailblaze, Confuse Ray
  • New Competitive Move: Shell Smash
Mollux:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack or Corrosive Gas)
  • Retained past gen moves: Sludge Wave
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: None
  • New Competitive Move: Hydro Pump
Aurumoth:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack or Expanding Force)
  • Retained past gen moves: Megahorn, Disable, Psych Up
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Pounce, Calm Mind
  • New Competitive Move: Stored Power Calm Mind
Malaconda:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Scale Shot, Grassy Glide, Lash Out, Skitter Smack)
  • Retained past gen moves: Knock Off, Power Whip, Synthesis, include Brutal Swing, Spite, Screech, Swagger, Recycle if we have space in the movepool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Belch, Trailblaze, Poison Tail
  • New Competitive Move: Grav Apple
Cawmodore:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Dual Wingbeat)
  • Retained past gen moves: Knock Off, Endeavor
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Chilling Water, Take Down, Air Cutter
  • New Competitive Move: None
Volkraken:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Flip Turn, Burning Jealousy, Scorching Sands, or Skitter Smack)
  • Retained past gen moves: Infestation
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Pounce, Flare Blitz
  • New Competitive Move: Extrasensory
Plasmanta:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Rising Voltage or Corrosive Gas)
  • Retained past gen moves: Magnet Rise, Sludge Wave (clodsire gets it), fit Shock Wave if we can
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Acid Spray, Chilling Water, Charge Beam
  • New Competitive Move: Surf
Naviathan:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Steel Roller or Scale Shot)
  • Retained past gen moves: Icicle Spear, Whirlpool, Breaking Swipe, Muddy Water
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Chilliing Water
  • New Competitive Move: Wave Crash
Crucibelle:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Steel Roller or Meteor Beam)
  • Retained past gen moves: Rock Polish, Sludge Wave
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Acid Spray
  • New Competitive Move: Knock Off
Kerfluffle:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Misty Explosion or Coaching)
  • Retained past gen moves: Beat Up, Swagger
  • Replace Power-Up Punch with Charm in LU pool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down
  • New Competitive Move: Psychic
Pajantom:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None
  • Retained past gen moves: Dream Eater, Infestation, Sand Tomb
  • Replace Laser Focus with Sand Tomb, Dual Chop with Shadow Claw in LU Pool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Confuse Ray
  • New Competitive Move: Taunt
Jumbao:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Grassy Glide or Misty Explosion)
  • Retained past gen moves: Superpower, Shore Up (add Shore Up to Gen 8 Movepool too)
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Trailblaze
  • New Competitive Move: None
Caribolt:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Terrain Pulse, Grassy Glide, or Rising Voltage)
  • Retained past gen moves: Power Whip, Uproar, Endeavor
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Trailblaze
  • New Competitive Move: Hyper Drill
Smokomodo:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Burning Jealousy, Scorching Sands, Scale Shot, or Corrosive Gas)
  • Retained past gen moves: Endeavor
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Flame Charge, Trailblaze, Aerial Ace
  • New Competitive Move: Spikes Flame Charge
Snaelstrom:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack or Dual Wingbeat)
  • Retained past gen moves: Pin Missile, Muddy Water, Razor Shell
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Chilling Water, Pounce
  • New Competitive Move: Calm Mind Recover
Equilibra:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Steel Roller)
  • Retained past gen moves: Gravity
  • Replace Mind Reader with Gravity in LU
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Ice Spinner, Heavy Slam
  • New Competitive Move: None
Astrolotl:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Scorching Sands and Meteor Beam)
  • Retained past gen moves: Safeguard
  • Replace Heal Bell with Safeguard in LU
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Flame Charge
  • New Competitive Move: None
Miasmaw:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack or Corrosive Gas)
  • Retained past gen moves: Megahorn, Breaking Swipe
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Pounce
  • New Competitive Move: Scale Shot
Chromera:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Lash Out)
  • Retained past gen moves: Uproar, Assurance, Payback, Switcheroo
  • Replace Decorate with Play Rough, Aromatherapy with Grass Knot (new move to preserve one move of each type in LU pool) in LU Pool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Chilling Water, Trailblaze, Mud Slap
  • New Competitive Move: None
Venomicon:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Dual Wingbeat)
  • Retained past gen moves: None
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Tailwind, Acid Spray
  • New Competitive Move: None
Saharaja:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Scorching Sands or Lash Out)
  • Retained past gen moves: High Horsepower, Pay Day
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Rain Dance, Trailblaze, Chilling Water
  • New Competitive Move: None

Regarding Heal Bell: We are treating Heal Bell as effectively unobtainable in the game. There are no users of the move in the game since Blissey cannot actually run the move. However, if Heal Bell does end up becoming available again, we will review the CAPs who previously had the move for which ones should receive it in Gen 9.
 
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snake_rattler

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Here are the results of Session 1!

Naviathan:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Steel Roller or Scale Shot)
  • Retained past gen moves: Icicle Spear, Whirlpool, Breaking Swipe, Muddy Water
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Chilliing Water
  • New Competitive Move: Wave Crash
Crucibelle:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Steel Roller or Meteor Beam)
  • Retained past gen moves: Rock Polish, Sludge Wave
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Acid Spray
  • New Competitive Move: Knock Off
Stratagem:
  • Retained IoA Moves: Meteor Beam
  • Retained past gen moves: Rock Polish, Smack Down, Explosion
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Rock Throw, Iron Defense
  • New Competitive Move: None
Smokomodo:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Burning Jealousy, Scorching Sands, Scale Shot, or Corrosive Gas)
  • Retained past gen moves: Endeavor
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Flame Charge, Trailblaze, Aerial Ace
  • New Competitive Move: Spikes
You have 48 hours to voice any objections to these updates. Reminder that the next session is tomorrow at 10 AM EST!
 
No objection.
But another addition based on trends:
Every Mon that has wave crash/ gets take down, so it should be included for Smoko/Navi if it’s not there yet.
Same goes for almost all mons with Stone Edge and Rock slide, although the only exception is Glimmora, which is weird precedent for both Cruci with the same type and Strata with a similar stat distribution.

Endure is also now on basically every FE.
 

spoo

is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
so i was only around for the first two (really the first 1.5) updates but they went pretty smooth - navi was incredibly straightforward in what it kept/what new move it got, and crucibelle/stratagem seemed to be a bit more contentious but overall pretty simple cases too. i think some issues started cropping up in smokomodo's update, though, with the main problems having to do with the "any applicable movepool trends new in scarlet and violet" category. in hindsight we could've been more specific about how this was defined but here are my personal thoughts:

spoo12/05/2022 7:53 PM
@Spoomton Neo maybe mention something here about what to do wrt new movepool patterns that gamefreak seems consistent with? eg everything that learns scald now learns chilling water, every fully evolved bug type learns pounce (except for slither wing), etc- there may be more i’m forgetting
(from modchat)
i don't claim to have a monopoly on this point, or anything close to it - i'll be very clear that the community gets to interpret it however they want - but as the person who suggested adding this category i thought i'd add some context for my thought process behind including it. the idea was to give out blatantly obvious moves based on new movepool trends in order to make flavor consistent with gen 9's standards. like, obvious enough that it should be actively confusing why X CAP doesn't learn X move because it just Makes Sense. i didn't really think of this as a category to shoehorn in extra competitive additions, although it's possible that a new "movepool trends" move would be competitive in nature. chilling water navi and acid spray cruci are two great examples of how i personally imagined this category working - the only water-type mons that don't learn chilling water in SV are rotom and luvdisc:

/ds water, !chilling water, fe, all:​

meanwhile acid spray distribution changed a LOT between gen 8 and gen 9:

/ds8 poison, !acid spray, fe, all:​
/ds poison, !acid spray, fe, all:​

these movepool trends speak for themselves and seem more or less pointless to argue against. so, turning to smokomodo:
/ds8 fire, !flame charge, fe, all:​
/ds fire, !flame charge, fe, all:​
/ds trailblaze, fe, all:​
Abomasnow, Altaria, Ampharos, Appletun, Arboliva, Azumarill, Banette, Beartic, Blissey, Brambleghast, Brute Bonnet, Cacturne, Camerupt, Cinderace, Clodsire, Cyclizar, Dachsbun, Dedenne, Delibird, Donphan, Espeon, Falinks, Farigiraf, Flapple, Flareon, Florges, Froslass, Glaceon, Glalie, Gogoat, Golduck, Grafaiai, Greedent, Grimmsnarl, Grumpig, Gumshoos, Hawlucha, Haxorus, Heracross, Houndoom, Hypno, Jolteon, Jumpluff, Klawf, Komala, Kricketune, Leafeon, Lilligant, Lokix, Lucario, Lurantis, Luxray, Lycanroc, Mabosstiff, Maushold, Medicham, Meowscarada, Mimikyu, Oinkologne, Oranguru, Oricorio, Pachirisu, Passimian, Perrserker, Persian, Pyroar, Quagsire, Raichu, Salazzle, Sawsbuck, Scizor, Scovillain, Seviper, Skuntank, Slaking, Slither Wing, Spidops, Sudowoodo, Sunflora, Sylveon, Tauros-Paldea, Tauros-Paldea-Fire, Tauros-Paldea-Water, Toedscruel, Toxtricity, Tropius, Tsareena, Umbreon, Vaporeon, Volcarona, Weavile, Wigglytuff, Wo-Chien

i am not sure what changed at all between gen 8 and gen 9 to justify flame charge as a "movepool trend" - i think there are enough exceptions (they are weird mons but w/e) to not call flame charge universal, but even so, we are looking for "applicable movepool trends new in scarlet and violet." maybe i missed the logic when i was reading up, or maybe it was argued out in voice chat (please document the thought process if so...), but with the information i have i don't see why this should be here.

trailblaze on the other hand is a total mess of distribution with basically no discernible patterns, other than blanket distribution to grass-types barring breloom/amoonguss. the argument that i saw when i read chat history was "5 out of the 6 technician users + camerupt learn trailblaze" which... i guess? it's a bit of a reach to me to call this a "trend," and considering that the first vote on trailblaze was tied 9 to 9 and had to be redone, this feels like a highly subjective option that should just be left out. again, in my opinion the "new movepool trends" we're looking for should be so clear that they justify their own inclusion, otherwise we enter into largely subjective territory where users can make arguments for any number of moves (competitive or otherwise) that they personally think a CAP should receive. and given how seemingly random some move distribution is, it is honestly pretty easy to make a decent subjective argument for a ton of options.

spikes is also worth touching on, and i think this is where it's most clear that we could've specified a couple things better. there was some confusion a day or two before updates began about whether or not a "competitive" move added via movepool trends counts as the one new competitive more that we're handing out. the decision to give out 2, arguably 3 competitively useful moves to smokomodo seems to confirm that the answer is no, it doesn't - i.e., if every fire-type in gen 9 learned v create as a TM so pyroak gets it based on new movepool trends, we could still technically give it an additional competitive move if we wanted to. personally speaking, i think this is backwards - one new move is one new move, and if we take smokomodo as precedent, i worry that the "new movepool trends category" (in addition to its current loose subjective standards) will just become a place for us to shove multiple competitively useful moves onto the worst CAPs because "they suck and they deserve more strength." these restrictions on updates are in place for a reason and i think we should stick to them more honestly - we aren't carrying out buff processes here.

this post got a tad long (woops) so here's what i'm proposing:
- stricter standards for the "any applicable movepool trends new in scarlet and violet" category (perhaps a 60/40 or 70/30 supermajority required in voting would help, i prefer 70/30 because once again i conceive of this category as just no-brainers)
- as a result, removing trailblaze from smokomodo
- clarifying that "one new competitive move" still includes moves that were distributed on the basis of standardizing flavor via new movepool trends
- as a result, holding a vote at the beginning of the next updates session on whether to keep flame charge, spikes, or pick a new competitive move
 

snake_rattler

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Here are the results of Session 2!

Malaconda:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Scale Shot, Grassy Glide, Lash Out, Skitter Smack)
  • Retained past gen moves: Knock Off, Power Whip, Synthesis, include Brutal Swing, Spite, Screech, Swagger, Recycle if we have space in the movepool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Belch, Trailblaze, Poison Tail
  • New Competitive Move: Grav Apple
Plasmanta:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Rising Voltage or Corrosive Gas)
  • Retained past gen moves: Magnet Rise, Sludge Wave (clodsire gets it), fit Shock Wave if we can
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Acid Spray, Chilling Water, Charge Beam
  • New Competitive Move: Surf
Snaelstrom:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack or Dual Wingbeat)
  • Retained past gen moves: Pin Missile, Muddy Water, Razor Shell
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Chilling Water, Pounce
  • New Competitive Move: Calm Mind
Syclant:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack or Triple Axel)
  • Retained past gen moves: Pin Missile, Bug Bite
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Close Combat, Ice Spinner, Pounce, Trailblaze
  • New Competitive Move: None
You have 48 hours to voice any objections to these updates. Reminder that the next session is today at 6 PM EST!
 

shnowshner

Spy_paincriticaldeath01.wav
is a Pre-Contributor
w.r.t. Trailblaze:

The official in-game description of this move is,
"The user attacks suddenly as if leaping out from tall grass. The user's nimble footwork boosts its Speed stat."
It appears the intention of this move is that any Pokemon that could A. hide in tall grass and B. has the capacity to move suddenly is eligible to learn Trailblaze, and looking at the Pokemon which learn Trailblaze, a majority of them are land-dwelling "field" Pokemon. Something that stands out is Banette learning Trailblaze while Shuppet doesn't, which seems to indicate that being airborne prevents you from learning the move. This doesn't appear to be a hard rule, however: there's a good amount of Trailblaze users, like Flabébé and Sunkern, that are natively airborne (aka not a situation where a mon becomes airbone such as Snorunt > Glalie). Really, the more you look at the distribution, the stranger this move gets.

From what I remember of the Smokomodo discussion, Trailblaze was added because it felt plausible that the mon or its preevolutions could use the move given what else could, and it was felt that Trailblaze wasn't significant enough of an inclusion to be super competitively relevant. Obviously Grass coverage on a Fire/Ground type looks promising, but when you factor in that STAB EQ does the same damage (if not more) to the Waters and Grounds that would likely be targeted, it's use as coverage is dubious at best. Loaded Dice Bone Rush also comes into play here as a very strong option given the guaranteed 4-hit minimum + Technician boost that pretty handily outdamages a SE Trailblaze. It's debatable whether the move is actually worth running on Smokomodo or not despite otherwise obvious synergy, especially when it tentatively has Flame Charge. Tera Grass is like, the only major caveat since it would not only make breaking past Waters easier, but the type synergy is quite apparent (turn Water/Ground weakness into resists, many Grass switch-ins also fear Fire/Ground coverage). Still, even with Tera, Bone Rush is just as strong if not slightly more potent with a potential 5-hit chance and better odds of getting a critical. This isn't to say that the move is useless, because having an option to boost Speed + hit Waters SE in the same slot has some value.

Overall I feel like Smokomodo's updates do stick out negatively compared to the rest we've done so far, and would probably be worth revisiting maybe like, Sunday since that'd be the end of this first group? It's an odd case where you have some pretty obvious inclusions for it but those inclusions also dramatically impact the Pokemon as a whole. The whole "one new comp move" policy can feel rather limiting in that respect but I do think it's important for us to not go terribly overboard so early into the generation as OU continues to settle and CAP is so relatively unexplored as of yet.

Will add btw the Calm Mind Snaelstrom vote was pretty close, some felt it was fine, some felt it wasn't necessary, D2 argued we could do nothing so it stays bad and then buff it later which sounds like one of those voting system legality loopholes or whatever. I voted for CM because I feel like the meta has the room to handle it between the many Unaware users running around, the plethora of strong SE/Neutral hits that exist especially with Tera, and there's also Ting-Lu who just eats any one hit from anything ever and can Whirlwind.
 
As someone that has used Plasmanta a lot this gen, is Surf really a competitively inclined addition to Plasmanta's movepool? You can hit all relevant Ground types supereffectively with Psychic and Body Press, aside from Garchomp, who takes neutral damage from Surf anyways. I don't know if it's impactful enough to be necessary.

EDIT: You don't really need Magnet Rise when you can just Tera out of your Ground weakness (which doesn't use up a turn like Magnet Rise does), I'll give you Toxic Spikes though
 
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Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
Is Surf really a competitively inclined addition to Plasmanta's movepool? You can hit all relevant Ground types supereffectively with Psychic and Body Press, aside from Garchomp, who takes neutral damage from Surf anyways.
While that's true, the main thing is that requires you to use multiple moveslots, while Surf hits most relevant Ground-types supereffectively just by itself. This frees up a moveslot on Plasmanta that could be spent on something that provides a bit more utility for it such as Magnet Rise or hell maybe even Toxic Spikes.
 
Ngl giving Smokomodo spikes and flame charge (and i guess trailblaze) but only one of those moves is the competitive addition feels a bit weird since theyre obviously both great. Agree with what spoo said there

Giving Snael CM through a quick convo doesnt seem smart, theorymon is not super easy here but last time it was actually tested (during its creation) it was too strong, and that was in an age of very threatening flying and electric types which had z-moves- is there good enough counterplay to just the simple spiky shield/toxic/surf/cm set- or a more tricky spiky shield/draining kiss/surf/cm with tera fairy? are there acid armor/cm annoying sets? Theres a lot here that i just dont want to pass in a quick vote, and thats as snael apologist
(im still a big fan of water typing as a snael buff and this takes that off the table, which i am also not a fan of- pls buff this mon in a buff process properly where it can receive proper testing)




edit: I want to just throw a quick edit in here btw and say that I think Leech Seed should be considered for Malaconda's buff over grav apple. Grav apple is something thats been memed for a long time, but really what is the benefit here? Grav Apple-> Sucker Punch is a thing that exists, as well as just regular Grav Appling vs defensive mons as a "wincon" but off of uninvested 100 atk?.. Im reading the discussion too and it just doesnt seem like it has major merit besides being a beloved move for the flavor folks, so I hate to say it but I think it should go elsewhere.

Leech Seed is a move that is hard to find currently, but even more valuable in today's age of limited recovery and lack of regen/magic guard. It can grant healing to teammates which pairs with Malaconda's pivoting and supportive playstyle, pairs nicely with a Drought set with Parting Shot (granting healing and pivoting to certain proto mons is a nice compression), and also plays into Harvest and Glare shenanigans. I feel like this could be a more in-line buff that leads more nicely into a full buff process later, as a supportive mon.

Malaconda @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Parting Shot
- Synthesis / Glare
- Knock Off / Power Whip

Malaconda @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Leech Seed
- Synthesis / Substitute
- Glare / Rapid Spin
- Knock Off
 
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I think giving Snael Calm mind is a huge mistake, Like legitimately a horrible idea. If you don’t have an unaware mon, you just straight up lose. And beyond that, your only hope is to hit it super hard with a super effective physical attack, whatever that happens to be on any given basis, because dont forget the snael can terastalize.
Neutral attacks bounce right off of this thing, the strongest and most reliable neutral physical attacks youre gonna get against snael Is Chien Pao. And Chien is not coming in to take down Snael without essentially sacrificing itself, it’s too physically bulky. And that’s nothing to say of all the other easy set up opportunities it has, without Tera it blanks Great Tusk, aka the best spinner. And if it gets a calm mind there isn’t many special attackers that can contest it, especially when it can change its type.

Uh in short please no calm mind that sounds like a nightmare.
 

quziel

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While I do think the rhetoric around CM is a bit alarmist, as we've not had the chance to play with it, I also feel that CM may be a bit too far for a update process like this, esp given that Snael is already sorta viable. I'd like to remove it and either replace it with nothing, or hold a mini-poll to decide between the runner's up during the discord discussion (Recover, Body Press). As for smoko, its difficult. I don't feel like Trailblaze is a competitive move, in the context of Smoko getting Flame Charge, and every water being hit for 50% more by Bone Rush, but it getting Spikes does end up being debatably a second competitive move (again, unsure how much use it'd get given Chomp also gets spikes).
 

spoo

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It appears the intention of this move is that any Pokemon that could A. hide in tall grass and B. has the capacity to move suddenly is eligible to learn Trailblaze, and looking at the Pokemon which learn Trailblaze, a majority of them are land-dwelling "field" Pokemon.
there are plenty of exceptions to this:
/ds !trailblaze, field, fe, all​

not all, but many of these mons are "land dwelling" and capable of "hiding in tall grass" and "moving suddenly" (if camerupt, blissey, and clodsire count as mons that can suddenly move then the bar is in hell)

there are many grounded pokemon that aren't in the field group that don't learn this move either:
- glalie, froslass, and beartic learn trailblaze but crabominable and avalugg do not
- lucario, perrserker, and scizor learn trailblaze but gholdengo, tinkaton, and kingambit do not​
- many bipeds including starters like meowscarda and cinderace, water-types like azumarill and quagsire, fighting-types like hawlucha and heracross, and poison-types like toxtricity and salazzle all learn trailblaze, but quaquaval, gallade, and toxicroak do not​
- farigaraf, grumpig, medicham, and hypno learn trailblaze, but espathra, gallade, gardevoir, gothitelle, hatterene, indeedee, and rabsca do not​

i could go on, but i think it's clear how strange the distribution for this move is. i'm sure you could rationalize all of these outliers - just like gamefreak clearly did - but that doesn't change the fact that we're seriously going out of our way to force some kind of subjective pattern into existence out of this mess. i don't think it's our role to be playing mini-gamefreak to this degree, trying to get into the mind of these game designers and say, "well, gamefreak would probably give X CAP this move if it were real." i'm making a big deal out of what's realistically a low-impact addition, but considering we're so early on in the process, i think it's an important precedent to establish
 

snake_rattler

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After a more contentious session, here are the results of Session 3!

Caribolt:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Terrain Pulse, Grassy Glide, or Rising Voltage)
  • Retained past gen moves: Power Whip, Uproar, Endeavor
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down, Trailblaze
  • New Competitive Move: Hyper Drill
Miasmaw:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack or Corrosive Gas)
  • Retained past gen moves: Megahorn, Breaking Swipe
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Pounce
  • New Competitive Move: Scale Shot
Kerfluffle:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Misty Explosion or Coaching)
  • Retained past gen moves: Beat Up, Swagger
  • Replace Power-Up Punch with Charm in LU pool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Take Down
  • New Competitive Move: Psychic
Kitsunoh:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack or Poltergeist)
  • Retained past gen moves: Pain Split, Knock Off, Iron Tail
  • Replace Revenge with Knock Off in LU pool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Confuse Ray, Night Shade, Pounce
  • New Competitive Move: Strength Sap
You have 48 hours to voice any objections to these updates. Reminder that the next session is tomorrow at 10 AM EST!
 

MrDollSteak

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this post got a tad long (woops) so here's what i'm proposing:
- stricter standards for the "any applicable movepool trends new in scarlet and violet" category (perhaps a 60/40 or 70/30 supermajority required in voting would help, i prefer 70/30 because once again i conceive of this category as just no-brainers)
- as a result, removing trailblaze from smokomodo
- clarifying that "one new competitive move" still includes moves that were distributed on the basis of standardizing flavor via new movepool trends
- as a result, holding a vote at the beginning of the next updates session on whether to keep flame charge, spikes, or pick a new competitive move
I completely agree that it is important to clarify whether one new competitive move is inclusive with movepool trends irrespective of Smokomodo's situation.

In the case of Flame Charge, I think it is a very interesting case in terms of distribution, mainly because it regained TM status. In the case of trends, I think it has been a bit mislabeled, as it only looks as if way more Pokemon get access to the move in Gen 9 relative to Gen 8 as it is a TM again. If you actually factor distribution differences between Gen 7 where Smokomodo was introduced and Gen 9, it is clear that not much really changed in terms of distribution of the move, and that the Pokemon with the move in Generation 9 introduced between Generations 1 to 7 already had the move (except for Flareon who seems to lose access to the move completely).

In light of this, I'm in agreement with Spoo that Flame Charge has been slightly miscategorised and is worth revisiting as a competitive move to be polled against Spikes, even though I can see that the 48 hours is likely up. Put simply I'd be happy with Smokomodo to have access to either of these two moves but not both, as they are in my mind both competitive additions.

As for all of the other CAPs, I'm very happy with how they've been handled.
 
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Brambane

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W.R.T. Smokomodo

For Trailblaze, the distribution for the move has little discernable pattern. Even the description is contradictory, as it says the user moves swiftly as if leaping from the grass but Numel, Jigglypuff, and GLALIE get it? I think Trailblaze is a move that was arbitrarily given out to Pokemon, with the only notable trend being nothing fully aquatic or inorganic learns the move. Neither of these apply to Smokomodo, so giving it Trailblaze is not an egregious breach of flavor because the standard is so absurd anyways. With that being said, there wasn't really any reason that it should learn Trailblaze either from a flavor perspective. The way I see the move is that you can just toss it out there for a lot of things (which has been happening in updates anyways) and then the people partaking in the process either give it the nod or no for that CAP. Smokomodo happened to get the mod because of course it would, it has Technician and now has a way to hit Rotom-Wash.

Smokomodo is the only CAP that came out with more than one objectively competitive move additions (fwiw Plasmanta is pretty close too, as Charge Beam and absurdly enough Acid Spray allow it to wall break.) Trailblaze is competitive since it allows Smokomodo to hit one of its answers while compressing Speed boosting in its moveset, Flame Charge is competitive as basically a slightly worse Aqua Step, and Spikes is Spikes. I won't even say it was accidental; this was an obvious bending on what qualifies as movepool trends to give Smokomodo some extra competitive options, or basically favoritism because we could get away with it.

Since Trailblaze has no pattern and Flame Charge is obviously competitive first and flavor second for Smokomodo specifically, Smokomodo should get repolled with all three options on the table as the one competitive addition. We have an obligation to commit to our competitive standards from the onset, even if giving all three to Smokomodo is not breaking the mon (they aren't.)

W.R.T. Malaconda

It should get Apple Acid if we are giving it Grav Apple. Yes Apple Acid is a competitive move, but its not competitive for Malaconda. It would be weird flavor to get one exclusive move and not the other. I don't think Grav Apple is bad enough to replace with Leech Seed; the standard for replacing it when it already won a poll imo should be you either prove it is not a competitive addition (and therefore a flavor one) or it is so strong it breaks the mon and we should select a different move. Neither are the case, as its competitive implications are pretty obvious and beneficial (i.e. Skeledirge can no longer safely switch-in on Malaconda without committing Tera the next turn.
 
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snake_rattler

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Here are the results of Session 4!

Chromera:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Lash Out)
  • Retained past gen moves: Uproar, Assurance, Payback, Switcheroo
  • Replace Decorate with Play Rough, Aromatherapy with Grass Knot (new move to preserve one move of each type in LU pool) in LU Pool
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Chilling Water, Trailblaze, Mud Slap
  • New Competitive Move: None
Colossoil:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Lash Out or Scorching Sands)
  • Retained past gen moves: Brutal Swing, Payback, Superpower, Aqua Tail, Wide Guard, Block
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Ice Spinner, Stealth Rock, Take Down, Mud Shot
  • New Competitive Move: Headlong Rush
Aurumoth:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Skitter Smack or Expanding Force)
  • Retained past gen moves: Megahorn, Disable, Psych Up
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Pounce, Calm Mind
  • New Competitive Move: Stored Power
Tomohawk:
  • Retained IoA Moves: None (not retaining Coaching or Dual Wingbeat)
  • Retained past gen moves: None
  • Shift all of its moves to remove movepool gaps
  • Move additions based on new movepool trends in SV: Mud Slap, Air Cutter, Takedown, Trailblaze
  • New Competitive Move: Body Press
You have 48 hours to voice any objections to these updates. Next session will be next Friday at 6PM EST - check the #announcements in the Discord with corresponding events (in due time)!
 

snake_rattler

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Going to double post so that I can post as a user, rather than as a purveyor of results.

In Session 4, Calm Mind Aurumoth seemed like a fine addition because, via movepool trends, the only Psychic-type that doesn't get Calm Mind this generation is Veluza. However, when examining last generation, there were a large group of Psychc-types that didn't get Calm Mind.

Screenshot 2023-01-15 at 12.16.57 PM.png


On this basis, I think Aurumoth should NOT get Calm Mind, especially in combination with Stored Power, because Calm Mind distribution didn't meaningfully increase.

Rock Throw on Stratagem follows a similar pattern as Calm Mind - its distribution didn't increase, so I'd like to kill Rock Throw Stratagem so we don't have to add it to its movepool.
Screenshot 2023-01-15 at 12.18.18 PM.png


Other additions such as Stealth Rock Colossoil and Iron Defense Stratagem are more plausible since distribution actually increased from Generation 8 and 9.

Therefore, I will suggest to remove Calm Mind from Aurumoth and Rock Throw from Stratagem.

re: Smokomodo

The rule allows for these kinds of additions; however, the enforcement of the rule seems to be the issue here. I would like to explain how Smokomodo went in the group chat. At the time, we voted in Flame Charge on the basis of movepool trends, and then Trailblaze tied for whether or not to include or not. We tabled Trailblaze until after we discussed competitive moves, and we landed on Spikes as the "competitive" move. Then we moved back to Trailblaze, and it passed as well. My interpretation of the situation was that Spikes was added to give Smokomodo a competitive move, but not necessarily because people thought it would be good - a good group of chat pointed out that Smokomodo would be mostly outclassed by as a Spikes user by Garchomp due to its superior speed.

With the context of Session 1 live chat above, I would rather suggest that we ditch Spikes altogether and set Flame Charge as the competitive move (more in-line with the reasoning of Calm Mind Aurumoth and Rock Throw Stratagem - Flame Charge's distribution didn't truly increase between gens) and then poll Trailblaze on whether or not it counts as a movepool trend or not (given how it could be viewed either way). Again, I really don't think Spikes had much enthusiasm behind it, so just leaving Spikes behind seems like a reasonable action.

re: Calm Mind Snaelstrom

Calm Mind Snaelstrom was a very close vote, barely winning out. It was polled with Body Press, Recover, and no new competitive move. I personally think repolling these on forums would definitely be a viable way to resolve the Calm Mind dispute.

----

Ok, now I will speak as a moderator.

If a contentious point hasn't been resolved within 48 hours, I will allow discussion to continue. However, if a point of contention has NOT be brought up before its respective 48 hour time limit, consider all updates within that time limit locked in. So far, the more contentious points have been Flame Charge / Trailblaze / Spikes Smokomodo, Calm Mind Snaelstrom, and Calm Mind Aurumoth.
 
I don't think Grav Apple is bad enough to replace with Leech Seed; the standard for replacing it when it already won a poll imo should be you either prove it is not a competitive addition (and therefore a flavor one) or it is so strong it breaks the mon and we should select a different move. Neither are the case, as its competitive implications are pretty obvious and beneficial (i.e. Skeledirge can no longer safely switch-in on Malaconda without committing Tera the next turn.
Just in response to this- it says in the first post that this is a space to voice opinions if you cant make the discord discussion- I missed it so I wanted to bring up Leech Seed as another option. Im guessing that means I can bring up another move suggestion that wasnt mentioned against the poll winner without needing to prove anything regarding competitiveness etc- just as an alternative that I prefer
 

SHSP

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Some quick thoughts about some of the more contentious stuffs now that I have a second away from CL stuff-

Smoko- Generally agree with Bramb and Spoo. Trailblaze is on the line of competitive or not, but the other 2 additions pretty clearly are to me. Don't really have much to say here that hasn't been said already.

Snael- CM probably deserves a vote if its this contentious (even if I don't particularly think it'll be amazing, but I haven't used the mon since SM zygarde so don't listen to me here).

Caribolt- I was loud about this in the update itself, and I'll be loud about it now. There's no reason that this should get a new move, it's in an excellent spot already compared to a whole lot of our mons and in the meta overall. Really dislike the fact this has another option that is reasonably comparable to Double Edge (even if I don't really think its worth running), especially considering we did indirectly buff it by giving it Power Whip back.

Auru- Calm Mind+Stored is kind of just a buff process here, to be flat. CM on its own is honestly kind of mediocre on the thing (I'd imagine) but Stored Power alongside it is asking for a whole lot of trouble (even if I'm just theorymonning right now). I'm honestly not a big fan of giving Moth Stored Power at all considering how on paper that could get rather out of control between its existing boosting, Weak Armor, and stuff like Weakness Policy.

The rest I have some qualms about but I recognize stuff like not liking MBeam being back on Strata is just me being a stickler.
 

snake_rattler

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With at least two voices having objections to Smokomodo, Snaelstrom, and Aurumoth, and most of the 48 hour deadlines complete, there will be forum votes on the following:
Code:
Smokomodo: Poll Flame Charge vs. Spikes as its New Competitive Move
Snaelstrom: Poll Calm Mind vs. Body Press vs. Recover as its New Competitive Move
Aurumoth: Poll Calm Mind vs. Stored Power as its New Competitive Move
Only pip has suggested:
Code:
Malaconda: Poll Grav Apple vs. Leech Seed as its New Competitive Move
And only SHSP has suggested:
Code:
Caribolt: Poll Hyper Drill vs. No New Competitive Move
At present, I will not be polling Malconda or Caribolt. If anyone else agrees with these suggestions and wants them to go to poll, you have 24 hours to say so.
 
I guess I'll throw it in for no new move for Caribolt - but shouldnt all of these offer no competitive move?
Personally I would vote that for Snael because Iron Defense + Body Press is a brand new boosting set that basically flips the mon's identity in a quickfire poll, CM is super volatile as already mentioned, and Recover + SD sets are also a menace to rival CM (this mon is damn hard to OHKO and Recover is at least equal survivability than CM- while we tested defensive boosting when snael was made, from what I remember we didnt even TOUCH recover as a plausible option)
 
I’ll throw my support for polling Grav Apple Vs. Leech Seed on Malaconda, since Leech Seed is much more valuable this gen with recovery much stricter than before. Grav Apple on the other hand, while useful against the likes of Dodonzo and Argh, might not be as impactful as we think it’d be.

I’ll also support adding no competitive move as an option to Snael and Auru specifically, since their moves are all rather contentious and people may not like any of them. I’d argue Smokomodo doesn’t need this option given how it seems pretty apparent to me that people want to give it a competitive move, but the option being added for consistency would be fine. That said, what about Trailblaze on Smokomodo? Snake’s post doesn’t mention it, so I’m not sure what’s going to happen to that move.
 

snake_rattler

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As promised, here is the suite of polls that will happen regarding the first weekend of updates:

Code:
Smokomodo: Poll Flame Charge vs. Spikes
Malaconda: Poll Grav Apple vs. Leech Seed
Snaelstrom: Poll Calm Mind vs. Body Press vs. Recover vs. No New Competitive Move
Caribolt: Poll Hyper Drill vs. No New Competitive Move
Aurumoth: Poll Calm Mind vs. Stored Power vs. No New Competitive Move
Please keep an eye out in CAP Voting for these polls, which will be up shortly.

Additionally, Rock Throw will not be added to Stratagem's movepool due to reasoning I provided in an above post. Otherwise, all changes listed above will be locked in for implementation. Thanks for a great first half of this new updates process! Locking this thread until after our next session on Friday at 6PM EST - be sure to keep an eye on the CAP Discord!
 

snake_rattler

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Update: here are the results over the above polls:

Smokomodo will receive Flame Charge and not Spikes.
Malaconda will receive Grav Apple as before.
Snaelstrom will receive Recover instead of Calm Mind.
Caribolt will receive Hyper Drill as before.
Aurumoth will receive Calm Mind and not Stored Power.

I will update the OP to reflect all changes since the livechats. See y'all Friday for Session 5!
 
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