(GEN5 OU) California, Here We Come!

[y4f]

STANDARD GEN5 OU - "CALIFORNIA, HERE WE COME!"​

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wq-S8CIU7VA​

Concept

Bulky offense has always seemed like (by far) the most effective method of winning pokemon battles. As a result, I made a team that retains decent bulk and defensive prowess while having hard hitters, inflicting status, and easily sweeping late game.​

Team Building Process

I wanted to start my team off with a bulky antilead that could hit hard, have priority, and set up rocks. Metagross seemed to be my "go-to-guy", with STAB Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch to 2KO sashed leads.

Next, I wanted a revenge killer that had decent type synergy with Metagross. I settled on Garchomp due to his ability to sweep late game with Outrage, utilize a scarf, and outspeed and KO common scarfers and Dragon Dancers (Gyarados, Tyranitar, Salamence, opposing SDChomp, Heatran, Flygon, Dragonite).​

As my first two pokemon were exclusively physical, I wanted a special attacker that could switch in on a variety of moves, hit hard, and break through walls. I decided on a SubToxTran set. While losing the matchup against opposing BalloonTran, that hasn't proved to be an issue.

Next, I needed another stall-breaker capable of inflicting status and breaking through a myriad of walls. I settled on Breloom due to his 100% accuracy Spore and a powerful Focus Punch. Poison Heal also allows me to recover and sub up frequently.

For my next member of the team, I wanted a bulky water and a physically bulky phaser as I've had problems with Roobushin. I decided to go with RestTalk Cune.

Finally, I needed a set-up sweeper for late-game. I decided Zuruzukin would fit this need well, due to his massive defenses and HP, allowing him to soak up special attacks, counter Latias, and wreck special sweepers.

Movesets in Detail

CalTech (Metagross) @ Lum Berry
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Meteor Mash
- Stealth Rock
- Bullet Punch
- Earthquake

CalTech (Metagross) is one of my favorite leads. The EVs are standard, and are essential in providing maximum bulk, attack power, and a teeny bit of speed in order to prevent me from speed tying other base 70s. An Adamant nature is obvious, as it allows me max attack without any drawbacks. Meteor Mash is 120 BP STAB, and allows me to 2KO almost all of the non-bulky leads out there via first turn MM, followed up with a Bullet Punch. Bullet Punch is there mainly for finishing off sashers, as well as revenge killing late-game.

San Jose (Zuruzukin) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
- Bulk Up
- Stone Edge
- Crunch
- Drain Punch

This Zuruzukin was a much more crucial member of my team when I ran Machamp, Breloom, and Burunkeru, as it provided a counter to Gengar, Shandera, and other Ghosts packing Psychic as a result of Roobushin's phenomenal impact on the GEN5 metagame. Now, it still retains the ability to counter those pokes, but is pitifully inferior to Roobushin (and I am considering switching to Roobushin). Shed Skin allows me to shed off burns and toxic occasionally, which is nice. 252 HP and SDef allow me to sponge special attacks, and then bolster my physical abilities with Bulk Up. Careful nature is to boost my SDef to an even more ridiculous level. Bulk Up raises both Attack and Defense, allowing me to become a pain to take down especially considering the recovery I get from boosted Drain Punches.

San Luis (Garchomp) (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Sand Veil
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
- Earthquake
- Outrage
- Stone Edge
- Crunch

Garchomp is my revenge killer. He resists Electric moves directed at Suicune, and finishes off a vast majority of sweepers in the metagame. Sand Veil allows for some occasional hax just for giggles and ragequits. The EVs allow me to hit as hard as possible while getting the most out of my Choice Scarf, outspeeding neutral chomps, and guaranteeing that I outspeed Deoxys-A, +1 max speed Gyarados, Tyranitar, Dragonite, ScarfTran, and more. The Jolly nature ensures that other ScarfChomps don't get to Outrage me to oblivion (as well as +speed Scarf Flygon). EQ is for STAB, hits Heatran, Blaziken, Nape, Ninetales, Metagross, and other Steels hard (2KOs Scizor switchins). Outrage is generally used when all of the opposing pokemon are weakened with toxic and entry hazards, and is used for late game sweeping. Stone Edge is to hit Gyarados and other Flying types, and Crunch is the final piece of the puzzle, hitting Celebi, Rankurusu, and Ghost-types with only slightly less power and more reliability than Outrage. I'm considering switching this for Fire Fang / Fire Blast, or even Dragon Claw. Opinions?

Sacramento (Heatran) (M) @ Balloon
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Toxic
- Lava Plume
- Earth Power

BalloonTran is incredible. It comes in on the many pokes that rely on EQ to take out Heatran, forces them to waste a turn popping my Balloon / switching out, by which point I've already set up a substitute, crippled them with Toxic, or hit them with Lava Plume / Earth Power. Flash Fire allows me to boost off of choiced Fire moves attempting to revenge-kill Metagross / Breloom, Sub up, and proceed to poison / burn other opposing pokes that come in. The EVs ensure I get my Sub up as quickly as possible so that I can successfully ToxiStall, while still making sure that Lava Plume and Earth Power hit as hard as possible. Substitute is crucial for status blocking, Toxic for walls, Lava Plume for physical attackers, and Earth Power for everything that resists Lava Plume. A pretty simple set, really.

Long Beach (Suicune) @ Leftovers
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Surf
- Roar


This ResTalk Cune is an invaluable check to a lot of the physical pokemon that would otherwise run through this team. It's EVd to take +2 Adamant Doryuuzu EQs and phase it out. Also EVd for maximum physical bulk. Rest and Sleep Talk are an infallible combination that allows me to phase and inflict damage whilst asleep. Surf allows me a STAB move to deal consistent damage, and provides a nice move for Sleep Talk to hit - who could turn down 95 BP STAB while resting up to full health. Roar allows me to phase out sweepers who attempt to set up while I'm asleep. One advantage of the Sleep Talk / Roar combination is that I can "priority sleepshuffle" - basically, I can use Roar without the -1 priority as long as I hit it with Sleep Talk, allowing me to phase the opponent before they get a move in.

Obispo (Breloom) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 236 HP / 252 Def / 20 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Substitute
- Spore
- Seed Bomb
- Focus Punch

This Breloom is an incredibly effective stallbreaker, thus earning its spot on the team. Toxic Orb and Poison Heal allow me to recover a great deal of HP every turn. The EVs let me switch in without fear on resisted physical attacks, and proceed to set up. Substitute lets me block status, take hits from faster pokemon without fear of being OHKOd, and fire off Focus Punches without fear of losing my focus. Spore lets me consistently put threats to sleep, rendering them useless. Seed Bomb hits the Bulky Waters that cause me so much pain, as well as the Ghosts that don't even get touched by Focus Punch. This Breloom set can also serve as a last-resort Dory counter, as it resists the infamous EdgeQuake combo.

Thanks for looking at the team! Please rate it, and point out any flaws you see that could be touched upon. Gogogo!

 

[Chou Toshio]

I've always found the notion of Fire-Water-Grass cores as some sort of fundamental offensive/defensive core as being absurd. People don't fully realize the external factors that made those "cores" appear.

In UU, Fire and Grass Types were popular because the Fire / Grass types allowed in UU were simply better pokemon. SR stopped a lot of Fire Types from making OU, and Grass type sucking likewise weened grass types from OU. The result was an over saturation of Fire/Grass pokemon in UU that simply had better BST and movepools than pokemon of other types-- pokemon with "power" on par with OU pokemon, but ended up UU simply because they had shitty typing. I mean think about Moltres, Arcanine and Venusaur-- they're on a different level than shit like Altaria (with OU sucking up all the good dragons).

As for water types, Water simply is one of the best types in the game and had more pokemon than any other type. Shit like Milotic and Slowbro have the power needed to compete with OUs, they were simply ouclassed by even more powerful water-type brethren (with better movepools). It's natural that these out-of-place behemoths would be dominant in UU.

So, this contrived concept of a FWG core develops in UU (not because FWG is best typing, but just because DSW isn't possible with no Dragon and Steel types), and then when Latias gets banned, letting Shaymin see more use, people start saying "Oh look! FWG in OU!" which is utter bullshit. Water was always a dominant force in OU, and always had more OU members than any other type-- it wasn't a "Steel-Dragon" metagame, it was a "Steel-Dragon-Water" metagame. And look at Heatran, it's a steel type! And most of its value defensively (and it's value in OU) was derived not from it being a fire type, but from it being a Steel Type that was also immune to fire. Those two forces-- Bulky Waters and Heatran the steel type, were always dominant in OU.

It's utterly ridiculous that Shaymin and Celebi getting a little more use with Latias banned makes "A whole new metagame based on FWG!!!" Ludicrous. The meta was too under-saturated on grass types before then, and people were over-abusing water and ground types freely-- Shaymin seeing success is completely natural.



Now that I've got that history lesson out of the way, let's look at the actual team-- not as an FWG team but simply as a team.

Overall I see how this could (has) been successful. You have a bit a weakness to Pursuit because of your two ghosts (Shanderaa in particular, does not like Tyranitar), but Breloom and Roobushin can seriously put the hurt on enemy teams too eager to try to abuse pursuit. There's a good balance, and fighting types are a terrific stabilizing factor in any team.

I do worry that you seem to have no means of dealing with "Fast Dragon Type packing fire moves", put simply you're weak to Mence, DD Dragonite and Lati@s (with HP fire).


Without a doubt, Shanderaa is the "Weak link" in your team, easily trapped and/or forced out. SR Weak + Choice Item rarely is a good thing. I also don't see it covering too many enemy threats that couldn't be better covered by a different Scarf user. My personal choice would be to replace Shanderaa with another Scarf user who can also deal with fast dragon types. Scarf Jirachi, Genosekuto or Garchomp would be my personal preferences.

Overall, I can see how this team would have some success. Nice work for a "first team" in 5th Gen.

 

[Plusle]

Hi! Nice team. On Sazandora run Surf over Earth power. This allows you to reliably hit BalloonTran who would otherwise wall you. Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse are not very good together and I reccomend changing 1 to U-Turn to switch out if counters.


Gl with this team.

 

[y4f]

I've always found the notion of Fire-Water-Grass cores as some sort of fundamental offensive/defensive core as being absurd. People don't fully realize the external factors that made those "cores" appear.

In UU, Fire and Grass Types were popular because the Fire / Grass types allowed in UU were simply better pokemon. SR stopped a lot of Fire Types from making OU, and Grass type sucking likewise weened grass types from OU. The result was an over saturation of Fire/Grass pokemon in UU that simply had better BST and movepools than pokemon of other types-- pokemon with "power" on par with OU pokemon, but ended up UU simply because they had shitty typing. I mean think about Moltres, Arcanine and Venusaur-- they're on a different level than shit like Altaria (with OU sucking up all the good dragons).

As for water types, Water simply is one of the best types in the game and had more pokemon than any other type. Shit like Milotic and Slowbro have the power needed to compete with OUs, they were simply ouclassed by even more powerful water-type brethren (with better movepools). It's natural that these out-of-place behemoths would be dominant in UU.

So, this contrived concept of a FWG core develops in UU, and then when Latias gets banned, letting Shaymin see more use, people start saying "Oh look! FWG in OU!" which is utter bullshit. Water was always a dominant force in OU, and always had more OU members than any other type-- it wasn't a "Steel-Dragon" metagame, it was a "Steel-Dragon-Water" metagame. And look at Heatran, it's a steel type! And most of its value defensively (and it's value in OU) was derived not from it being a fire type, but from it being a Steel Type that was also immune to fire. Those two forces-- Bulky Waters and Heatran the steel type, were always dominant in OU.

It's utterly ridiculous that Shaymin and Celebi getting a little more use with Latias banned makes "A whole new metagame based on FWG!!!" Ludicrous. The meta was too under-saturated on grass types before then, and people were over-abusing water and ground types freely-- Shaymin seeing success is completely natural.



Now that I've got that history lesson out of the way, let's look at the actual team-- not as an FWG team but simply as a team.

Overall I see how this could (has) been successful. You have a bit a weakness to Pursuit because of your two ghosts (Shanderaa in particular, does not like Tyranitar), but Breloom and Roobushin can seriously put the hurt on enemy teams too eager to try to abuse pursuit. There's a good balance, and fighting types are a terrific stabilizing factor in any team.

I do worry that you seem to have no means of dealing with "Fast Dragon Type packing fire moves", put simply you're weak to Mence, DD Dragonite and Lati@s (with HP fire).


Without a doubt, Shanderaa is the "Weak link" in your team, easily trapped and/or forced out. SR Weak + Choice Item rarely is a good thing. I also don't see it covering too many enemy threats that couldn't be better covered by a different Scarf user. My personal choice would be to replace Shanderaa with another Scarf user who can also deal with fast dragon types. Scarf Jirachi, Genosekuto or Garchomp would be my personal preferences.

Overall, I can see how this team would have some success. Nice work for a "first team" in 5th Gen.

Thanks, Chou. The history lesson was much appreciated, but let me reassure you that I don't think the FWG core is something special or unique - I simply think it's a basic method of developing team synergy and assuring that your Pokemon cover one another's weaknesses. Also, when I say much appreciated, it actually was. I just returned to competitive battling approximately a month ago, so I've missed out on a lot of the changes in the metagame, such as the aforementioned development of Grass-types and how they rose in popularity.

I will definitely test Scarf Genosekuto over Shandera, due to its great typing, however, the only problem I forsee with that is it somewhat shifts the balance of my team. As opposed to having a Fire resist, I have a 4x Fire weak. This makes me want to fit in Balloon SubTran or something similar in place of Sazandora or Loom (also being Fire weak). I can see ScarfChomp being incredibly effective, with Outrage to take out Dragons, Stab EQ, Stone Edge for Gyarados and friends, and then possibly Fire Fang / Fire Blast / Aqua Tail. Also what do you think about switching Sazandora to Scarf and using that as my revenge killer, then running a Sub BalloonTran to serve the same purpose as Shandera (with its Flash Fire ability)?

Also, while Shandera may be the weak link in my team, it gets far more KOs than any other member of my team, pretty much every game. Although I'm sure that's the nature of Scarfed pokemon, I suppose Garchomp could do the same or more.

Hi! Nice team. On Sazandora run Surf over Earth power. This allows you to reliably hit BalloonTran who would otherwise wall you. Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse are not very good together and I reccomend changing 1 to U-Turn to switch out if counters.


Gl with this team.

The reason I go for Earth Power is so that I can hit Ninetales and Fire-types in Sun while not fearing the damage drop for water-type moves. However, I can see Surf being a great deal more effective with BalloonTran, although I haven't seen many of those yet. Also, Scarf Garchomp could deal with Fire-types in Sun so I'm not too worried about that. Thanks for the rates.

 

[y4f]

BUMP. Replaced half the team, totally new team concept, with changed movesets and layout.

Please tell me what you think! Revised team is in the OP.

 

[Jaroda]

Zuruzukin can be very annoying with its bulk but being weak to Fighting does pose a problem. Might I suggest Rest over Stone Edge? With Bulk Up and your SpD EVs you'll be a total tank that can heal in a pinch, remove status, and Shed Shell is very likely to cure your sleep before the 3 turns.

Aside from your Suicune, your whole team is weak or walled by the new Poison Heal variant of Gliscor with its combination of Earthquake and Acrobat. You can't even put it to sleep with Breloom. So if you see your opponent has one I highly recommend prioritizing Suicune's safety.

On your Metagross might I suggest Thunderpunch to handle Politoed leads as well as Gyarados?

Overall pretty solid. 8/10

 

[y4f]

Yes, I'll definitely consider Rest over Stone Edge. Recovery is the main think I lack with Zuru. Also - where would you suggest fitting in TPunch? I'm hesitant to take out EQ, as it hits fire switch-ins and opposing steels incredibly hard. Also, Meteor Mash + BP is crucial to ensure my 2KO on most leads.

I definitely see it's usefulness though. Also, Gliscor is definitely a threat for this team. What do you think about running LO Starmie in place of Zuru in order to have a special attacker? Or something of that nature, maybe a Zapdos with HP Ice?

Opinions, please!

 

[Jaroda]

You could probably do without Meteor Mash, as the accuracy is pretty unstable.

A bulky Zapdos is actually a fantastic Roopushin check and Gliscor counter with HP Ice. You can either use Pressure with Heat Wave, or you can use Lightningrod to have another electric immunity that also raises your SpA.

Zapdos@Leftovers
Lightningrod
252 Df / 4 SpA / 252 Spd
Timid / Bold
Toxic/Substitute
Roost
Thunderbolt
HP Ice

You can sacrifice Speed for HP or SpA if you want.

 

[NightShadow]

You could probably do without Meteor Mash, as the accuracy is pretty unstable.

I disagree. Metagross really needs the extra power, and Iron Head's flinch chance is negligible due to its subpar speed.

A bulky Zapdos is actually a fantastic Roopushin check and Gliscor counter with HP Ice. You can either use Pressure with Heat Wave, or you can use Lightningrod to have another electric immunity that also raises your SpA.

Zapdos@Leftovers
Lightningrod
252 Df / 4 SpA / 252 Spd
Timid / Bold
Toxic/Substitute
Roost
Thunderbolt
HP Ice

You can sacrifice Speed for HP or SpA if you want.

I don't think he can use Lightningrod, this isn't labeled Dream World. Anyways, +1 Stone Edge will hit you really hard from Roopushin, so you need those HP evs. it should be 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA.

 

[Nosferalto]

Hi y4f,

Metagross, Garchomp, Heatran, Breloom, Suicune, Zuruzukin, looks like a promising 5th gen. team with some decent choices. The main issue in my opinion is the lack of a reliable switch-in to Fighting type moves because of the lack of a resist / immunity. With the introduction of newly very potent Fighting types and some old Fighting types that got even better, I think this is an issue that cannot be ignored. I can also see this team struggling against Doryuuzu. Suicune can take a +2 Earthquake but Doryuuzu usually shows its face late game where it will certainly be weakened and it will be unable to take it on. To somewhat resolve this issue, I think replacing Suicune with a Resttalk Gyarados will be a beneficial addition to this team as it provides a Fighting type resist and plays a very similar role to Suicune, with its typing and moveset. Waterfall | Rest | Sleep Talk | Dragon Tail / Roar, Impish nature, Leftovers and 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe. This will definitely not ensure that all Fighting types will be kept at bay, but will alleviate this weakness thanks to its typing and clever Intimidate switch-ins. You also get a Ground immunity that you desperately need, which is another excellent addition.

While your current Zuruzukin set is fine, I would still advocate using a Bulk Up Roobushin in its slot. Not only is it more effective in that slot, in my opinion, Mach Punch also allows you to revenge kill Doyuuzu if it gets a SD, which is important and also hits an abundance of threats for SE effective damage allowing Roobushin to effectively check some potentially dangerous stuff. Bulk Up / Drain Punch / Payback / Mach Punch, Leftovers as an item, Adamant nature and 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SpD.

As for minor changes, I would give Dragon Claw a shot over Crunch on Garchomp to avoid needlessly getting locked into Outrage. Crunch's use is very limited, so I would give Dragon Claw a test in that slot.

This is my first rate for a gen. 5 team, so bare with me if I said anything incorrect, but I think those changes will hopefully improve your team, so give them a try. gl!

 

[NeoSeth]

I would have to say definitely have Rest over Stone Edge. With Fighting/Dark STAB, you hit literally everything in the tier for at least neutral damage, barring Toxicroak and Heracross. With Stone Edge, you don't even hit Toxicroak neutrally, so it's really not worth it, I feel. Rest could make Zuru REALLY hard to kill. If not Rest, Ice Punch. It gets super effective on Flying-types, and allows you to hit everything for neutral damage. You could also run Fire Punch, which hits Toxicroak and Heracross SE, as well as a couple others (Nattorei, Breloom, etc). Thunder Punch is also an option, but it seems lacking when compared to the other E-Punch moves.

I also vouch for replacing Suicune with RestTalk Gyarados with Dragon Tail/Roar. Maybe even both to ensure the phazing :O. Anyway, this would solve your problems with a few stat-uppers, like Roopushin and Doryuuzu, but also Kingdra who, in the rain, outspeeds your entire team. It also does severe damage to a few members, like Heatran, Garchomp and Breloom (If it runs Ice Beam). A DD Mixdra set effectively 6-0s this team. Gyarados has the ability to cut Kingdra's attack, resist one of it's STABs, and phaze it with a super-effective attack. It'd really patch up the weaknesses on this team.

Also, consider running Mach Punch on Breloom over Seed Bomb. What you lose in coverage can be made up for with the ability to take out Doryuuzu and other faster sweepers. It's a tough change, but it could help.

 

[y4f]

You could probably do without Meteor Mash, as the accuracy is pretty unstable.

A bulky Zapdos is actually a fantastic Roopushin check and Gliscor counter with HP Ice. You can either use Pressure with Heat Wave, or you can use Lightningrod to have another electric immunity that also raises your SpA.

Zapdos@Leftovers
Lightningrod
252 Df / 4 SpA / 252 Spd
Timid / Bold
Toxic/Substitute
Roost
Thunderbolt
HP Ice

You can sacrifice Speed for HP or SpA if you want.

Meteor Mash's accuracy is by no means unstable, and the +attack possibility and gigantic base power makes up for it in my eyes. Thanks for the suggestion on Zapdos, I'm definitely going to test it.

I disagree. Metagross really needs the extra power, and Iron Head's flinch chance is negligible due to its subpar speed.


I don't think he can use Lightningrod, this isn't labeled Dream World. Anyways, +1 Stone Edge will hit you really hard from Roopushin, so you need those HP evs. it should be 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA.

Yeah, I'm keeping Mash don't worry. And this is not Dream World, you're correct. I WILL go with that defensive Zapdos set simply because I want it to be bulky, but I'm honestly not worried about Stone Edge as I can PP stall it with Roost + Pressure.

Hi y4f,

Metagross, Garchomp, Heatran, Breloom, Suicune, Zuruzukin, looks like a promising 5th gen. team with some decent choices. The main issue in my opinion is the lack of a reliable switch-in to Fighting type moves because of the lack of a resist / immunity. With the introduction of newly very potent Fighting types and some old Fighting types that got even better, I think this is an issue that cannot be ignored. I can also see this team struggling against Doryuuzu. Suicune can take a +2 Earthquake but Doryuuzu usually shows its face late game where it will certainly be weakened and it will be unable to take it on. To somewhat resolve this issue, I think replacing Suicune with a Resttalk Gyarados will be a beneficial addition to this team as it provides a Fighting type resist and plays a very similar role to Suicune, with its typing and moveset. Waterfall | Rest | Sleep Talk | Dragon Tail / Roar, Impish nature, Leftovers and 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe. This will definitely not ensure that all Fighting types will be kept at bay, but will alleviate this weakness thanks to its typing and clever Intimidate switch-ins. You also get a Ground immunity that you desperately need, which is another excellent addition.

While your current Zuruzukin set is fine, I would still advocate using a Bulk Up Roobushin in its slot. Not only is it more effective in that slot, in my opinion, Mach Punch also allows you to revenge kill Doyuuzu if it gets a SD, which is important and also hits an abundance of threats for SE effective damage allowing Roobushin to effectively check some potentially dangerous stuff. Bulk Up / Drain Punch / Payback / Mach Punch, Leftovers as an item, Adamant nature and 120 HP / 252 Atk / 136 SpD.



As for minor changes, I would give Dragon Claw a shot over Crunch on Garchomp to avoid needlessly getting locked into Outrage. Crunch's use is very limited, so I would give Dragon Claw a test in that slot.

This is my first rate for a gen. 5 team, so bare with me if I said anything incorrect, but I think those changes will hopefully improve your team, so give them a try. gl!

That's an excellent rate, and congratulations on your first one. I have tested Dragon Claw over Crunch, and it basically achieves nothing simply because I play my Garchomp uniquely. I'm going to run Fire Blast just so I can hit Skarmory, Nattorei, Scizor, and Forretress switch ins somewhat harder than I would with EQ / Outrage. I also think Roobushin would work way better, I will test it out. Gyara over Suicune is an interesting choice, I can see it being very effective as it resits the EQs that STAB me so much (oh pun), so i'll give it a whirl.

I would have to say definitely have Rest over Stone Edge. With Fighting/Dark STAB, you hit literally everything in the tier for at least neutral damage, barring Toxicroak and Heracross. With Stone Edge, you don't even hit Toxicroak neutrally, so it's really not worth it, I feel. Rest could make Zuru REALLY hard to kill. If not Rest, Ice Punch. It gets super effective on Flying-types, and allows you to hit everything for neutral damage. You could also run Fire Punch, which hits Toxicroak and Heracross SE, as well as a couple others (Nattorei, Breloom, etc). Thunder Punch is also an option, but it seems lacking when compared to the other E-Punch moves.

I also vouch for replacing Suicune with RestTalk Gyarados with Dragon Tail/Roar. Maybe even both to ensure the phazing :O. Anyway, this would solve your problems with a few stat-uppers, like Roopushin and Doryuuzu, but also Kingdra who, in the rain, outspeeds your entire team. It also does severe damage to a few members, like Heatran, Garchomp and Breloom (If it runs Ice Beam). A DD Mixdra set effectively 6-0s this team. Gyarados has the ability to cut Kingdra's attack, resist one of it's STABs, and phaze it with a super-effective attack. It'd really patch up the weaknesses on this team.

Also, consider running Mach Punch on Breloom over Seed Bomb. What you lose in coverage can be made up for with the ability to take out Doryuuzu and other faster sweepers. It's a tough change, but it could help.

My logic is this. Roobushin > Zuru, and Zappy > Roobushin, thus I am going to run Zapdos. Also, it's excellent typing helps me more than Roobu ever would. + I'm gonna test Gyarados, possibly a Taunt Bulkydos as well. RestTalk is significantly less effective with no Spikes support.

Thanks so much for the rates!

 

[Jaroda]

Sorry, when I said "unstable", I was really should have just said "not great". I just think double Steel does horrible things for your coverage on top of just being a poor offensive type. Your decision of course.

 

[y4f]

Sorry, when I said "unstable", I was really should have just said "not great". I just think double Steel does horrible things for your coverage on top of just being a poor offensive type. Your decision of course.

Thanks, didn't mean to offend you by the quick rejection - and the reason for Meteor Mash is this: a STAB BP 120 move with Lum Berry AND STAB priority is crucial in taking out Taunt leads that will always Taunt first and kill with Fire Blast later. Also, Metagross's natural bulk lets him take SE attacks from faster (less bulky) leads, hit them back with high powered moves, then prevent them from getting the 2HKO via finishing them with Bullet Punch.

Having both Meteor Mash and Bullet Punch is the only thing that allows me to win lead matchups against pokes like Aerodactyl, Azelf, Machamp, Rankurusu, and more. I can definitely see how ThunderPunch would be useful, the only thing is that Bullet Punch has a much greater use. Also, Metagross often is preserved after the lead matchup, and is an effective revenge killer for weakened LO sweepers late in the game.

By the way, thanks for your rate.

 

[MCRandom]

Alright after using this team for some time now, I definately suggest replacing Scarf Garchomp with Scarf Randorosu, and Suicune with Gyarados.

For Randorosu:

Randorosu@Choice Scarf
Ability: Sand Power/Encourage
4 Hp / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Earthquake
-Stone Edge
-U-turn
-Explosion/Hammer Arm

Using Randorosu lets you keep that troll speed scarf pokemon, but also gives u an invaluable immunity to ground, as well as keeping your electric immunity and also letting you have a solid switch in to fighting types (which atm you lack). You retain your high powered earthquake stab, and if you choose Sand Power you still have the upper hand against sand teams. Also, your team as it is is very weak to doryuzuu, which this would fix for it can take 2 non-boosted rock slides , or 1 +2 rock slide and live should it set up, and ko back with earthquake. You can opt to run Hammer Arm over explosion if you wish but it is very gimicky, and its only purpose is to hit balloon Doryuzuu, and you can run Rock Slide over Stone Edge if you wish to opt for Encourage instead of Sand Power, which i do not recommend but is still viable.


For Gyarados:

Gyarados@Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EV's: 252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
-Rest
-Sleeptalk
-Waterfall
-Dragon Tail/Roar

Using Gyarados over Suicune gives you a way to check some potent threat to this team including pretty much any fighting type, doryuzuu, rain dance sweepers, the list goes on and on. With its immense bulk it can take a +1 (Intimidate lowers from +2) rock slide even after stealth rocks and KO Doryuzuu back with Waterfall. It also Gives you another Ground Immunity, I personally believe every team needs 2 that dont have the same weaknesses so its not as easy for your opponent to predict you. And it gives you a phaser to phase out any stat-boosters that your team may be having problems with.

 

[y4f]

I switched Gyarados for Suicune, and it's tested well.

Thanks for the rate, Naruto.

At this point, I'm going to leave this team be - no need to rate it any further. While it works decently, I don't like the overall concept as it lacks the ability to put its walls to good use. They counter what they're designed to, but due to this team's lack of ability to get lots of layers, it's doomed to fail.

I'm going to work on making a superior more defensively oriented team. For now, I'm going to keep playing around with this team and tweaking it more in the offensive direction. thanks so much for the rates guys.