Done Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP17 - Cawmodore

Birkal

We have the technology.
is a Top Artistis a Top CAP Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
:cawmodore: CAP17: Cawmodore Generation 8 Update :cawmodore:
Hello! Welcome to the Generation 8 Cawmodore update thread. In this thread, we will be updating the movepool of one of our past CAP creations to better match the changes Gamefreak made in Generation 8.

A major change that occurred between this update cycle and the last was to significantly narrow the scope of CAP updates. Abilities, statlines, and typings will not be changed during the course of this update. Only changes to a CAP's movepool will be allowed. Additionally, full movepool changes are also off the table, as the Update Leaders will decide where to distribute moves for their respective Pokemon based off logic and the ICC.

Furthermore, we have defined what type of changes are allowed to movepools, as well as the type of moves up for discussion. Movepool changes will be broken down in two categories: removals and additions. Moves that are subject to removal are those that have been rendered unusable in Sword and Shield, such as Pursuit, and past generation tutors and Technical Machines that are not available as a Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Please make sure that any moves brought up in this thread fall under at least one of these categories.

We have also defined the following considerations for use in evaluating move removals and additions. The foremost consideration is that any change proposed fits both the flavor of the CAP in question and the flavor of Generation 8 as a whole. This means that all changes should follow trends and precedents seen in Generation 8. Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle. We also wish to avoid the creation of an unbalanced CAP Pokemon. Therefore, the second consideration for move changes is the competitive impact of said changes. Moves that are clearly too powerful will be banned from discussion by the Update Leader.

This update cycle also has a set schedule. For four weeks, each of the seven Update Leaders will post a discussion thread for a single CAP Pokemon. This thread will be used for the discussion of changes to a CAPs movepool as explained in this post. Each thread will have six days reserved for discussion on potential changes to a CAP's movepool. On the seventh day, the Update Leader will collect the ICC and determine what will be changed. Controversial changes will be subject to a poll.

For the discussion of Cawmodore, please refer to its Gen 5 movepool submission and its move updates in Gen 7 Updates for the CAP's full movepool. Some other resources the CAP mods have compiled to make discussion easier is this list of cut moves that are distributed to our CAP pokemon, and this list of past TMs that were not included as Gen 8 TMs and TRs. Note that for the TM list, moves with * are those that have been cut entirely.

This thread will be locked until Birkal makes their leading post.
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
is a Top Artistis a Top CAP Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
caw

(Yes, the Pokemon the ULs were given was randomized)

Welcome to the update process for CAP17: Cawmodore. In my opinion, I think we're going to have a pretty straightforward time here. Cawmodore has always been something of a one-trick pony. It tries to find an opening with one of its several resistances/immunities, sets up Belly Drum, heals back up with Drain Punch, and attempts to sweep. It's one of the largest threats in the CAP metagame IF you aren't prepared for it. But if you know that it exists, it's fairly easy to teambuild around if you know what can stop its sweep (phazing, resetting stats, hitting it with priority, etc). Its our job to make sure it retains that identity as the premier Belly Drum user. First, let's take a look at its movepool.

Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move isn't a TM or TR in SWSH, so if we decide that it should be in Cawmodore's Generation 8 movepool, it must be moved in Level Up or Egg Moves (and thus requires discussion)
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves

- Leer
- Peck
Evo: Belly Drum
5 Growl
9 Swift
13 Metal Claw
18 Screech
22 Wing Attack
26 Detect
31 Steel Wing
39 Bullet Punch
44 Brine
48 Tailwind
52 Belch
58 Flash Cannon
64 Hurricane
TM06 Toxic
TM10 Hidden Power

TM15 Hyper Beam
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM23 Smack Down
TM27 Return
TM31 Brick Break
TM32 Double Team
TM40 Aerial Ace

TM42 Façade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM51 Steel Wing
TM58 Sky Drop
TM62 Acrobatics
TM68 Giga Impact
TM76 Fly
TM77 Psych Up
TM87 Swagger

TM88 Sleep Talk
TM90 Substitute
TM91 Flash Cannon
TM94 Surf
TM100 Confide
Block
Drain Punch
Endeavor
Iron Head
Knock Off
Shock Wave
Sky Attack

Sleep Talk
Snatch
Snore
Tailwind
Water Pulse
Air Slash
Belly Drum
Drill Peck
Metal Sound
Mirror Move
Pursuit

Quick Attack
Quick Guard
Razor Wind

Water Sport
Pluck (Gen 5 TM88)
Retaliate (Gen 5 / Gen 6 TM67)
Rock Smash (Gen 5 / XY TM94, ORAS HM06)
Secret Power (ORAS TM94)
Strength (Gen 5 / Gen 6 HM04)


Please endeavor to answer the following questions about Cawmodore:

1) Cawmodore is going to lose a lot of moves, but none of them are from its bread-and-butter set. Do we want to keep any of them? I've seen Knock Off and Toxic used on the ladder, but I think they are not competitively viable in the long run.

1B) Furthermore, if we do keep these moves, do they have increased viability in this generation's metagame? Would any of them detract from Cawmodore's Belly Drum set? Brave Bird may be a tempting option, but I am not willing to add it unless it's given a significantly convincing argument for not being competitive, which I don't think is possible.

2) Are there any flavor moves that you feel should be added to Cawmodore's movepool? Please provide reasoning as to why they won't be competitive. It is losing its Water-type flavor moves (Water Pulse & Water Sport), so do we want to maintain that flavor outside of Brine? Are there any other holes in flavor we're going to have due to dropped moves?
 
Last edited:

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Just a few notes: The second post lists Quick Guard as a Blue move, but it can still be bred from Farfetch'd-Galar so Cawmodore retains it. Also the little blurb mentions Snaelstrom, not Cawmodore. In agreement that Brave Bird would be over-the-top. You can run Brave Bird on Band sets without incident.


Cawmodore is one of those straightforward mons that is so recent it doesn't need much from updates. There's no good justification for keeping Toxic or Knock Off, as those suffered heavy distribution cuts. I do think that Aerial Ace and Sky Attack should be retained as an Egg Moves. Cramorant gets Aerial Ace and is also a Cormorant, and Sky Attack is common on other "bird" Pokemon, notably Unfezant who previously gave Cawmodore Razor Wind (which got snapped). Cawmodore is losing a lot of Egg slots, and these backfill nicely and can be flavor justified. Pluck has much, much more limited distribution and no Egg learners. Aerial Ace to replace Mirror Move, Sky Attack to replace Razor Wind.

Flavor additions:

Agility - Pretty much all of the "bird" Flying types recieved Agility. Although it technically lasts longer than Tailwind, Cawm really needs the Bullet Punch/Acrobatics/Drain Punch combo, and doesn't have room for "double dance."
Assurance - Has fairly broad distribution and is common on Flying types, isn't even as strong as itemless Knock Off (except if a mon switches into it while rocks are up).
Metronome - Random Addition
Revenge - Fits Cawm's Fighting flavor, completely outclassed.
Steel Beam - Steely bois.
 

quziel

I am the Scientist now
is a Site Content Manageris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Smogon Discord Contributoris a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a member of the Battle Simulator Staff
Moderator
I do agree that justifying Knock Off could be a bit difficult given the severe cuts to that move's distribution. However, Throat Chop was recently added as a TR, has sufficiently wide distribution, and has an essentially identical function, albeit at a significant power drop. If we wish to preserve the ability to hit Aegislash without worrying about giving Caw knock, this strikes me as a good opportunity. The only issue is that only 3 flying types learn the move (Cramorant, Hawlucha, K-Farfetch'd), however I don't think this out of the realm of reason. (Knock off actually has a bit higher dist, but w/e)
 

MrDollSteak

CAP 1v1 me IRL
is a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I do agree that justifying Knock Off could be a bit difficult given the severe cuts to that move's distribution. However, Throat Chop was recently added as a TR, has sufficiently wide distribution, and has an essentially identical function, albeit at a significant power drop. If we wish to preserve the ability to hit Aegislash without worrying about giving Caw knock, this strikes me as a good opportunity. The only issue is that only 3 flying types learn the move (Cramorant, Hawlucha, K-Farfetch'd), however I don't think this out of the realm of reason. (Knock off actually has a bit higher dist, but w/e)
I agree with this justification to be honest, Cramorant is a very similar Pokemon, in terms of real world animal origin, so I could see this as being quite reasonable.
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
is a Top Artistis a Top CAP Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I agree with the general sentiment of this thread so far. Throat Chop seems like a feasible add-on, even though it’s worse than Knock Off, which didn’t even see mention on Cawmodore’s analysis. I’m fine with most of Deck’s suggestions as well. I am not inclined to add too much though, and won’t pursue adding Steel Beam, Revenge, Metronome, or Assurance unless y’all have some better arguments or support for them. Agility is fine; Cawmodore is already crazy fast AND boasts a good priority move, so I don’t see it ever being used competitively.

Keep it up!
 

Deck Knight

Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Top Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I agree with the general sentiment of this thread so far. Throat Chop seems like a feasible add-on, even though it’s worse than Knock Off, which didn’t even see mention on Cawmodore’s analysis. I’m fine with most of Deck’s suggestions as well. I am not inclined to add too much though, and won’t pursue adding Steel Beam, Revenge, Metronome, or Assurance unless y’all have some better arguments or support for them. Agility is fine; Cawmodore is already crazy fast AND boasts a good priority move, so I don’t see it ever being used competitively.

Keep it up!
Steel Beam is the only one that seems mandatory as the"Draco Meteor Tutor, but for Steels" addition to Gen 8. Pawniard/Bisharp learn Steel Beam even though they don't (and never could) learn Flash Cannon. The rest are slightly more circumstantial. Assurance is weaker than Throat Chop in nearly all circumstances. Metronome was always the "lol Metronome Casual CAP Battles" play.

[Also it is kind of hilarious Steel Beam can proc eating Sitrus to enable Acro BP boost but without the +6 Attack boost]
 
Last edited:

Voltage

OTTN5
is a Pre-Contributor
I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, but let me summarize my sentiments:

Remove Knock and replace it with Throat Chop
Remove Toxic
(There is absolutely no flavor for this bird to be able to poison things)
Give it all of Deck Knight's flavor moves sans Metronnome (Steel Beam gets good distribution over Steel Types, so it's not out of place to assume that this powerful mon would also get the move, even if it's not going to be using it a ton, and Revenge makes sense to me for a sailor bird to might want to take out revenge or something idk)
Retain Sky Attack and Aerial Ace
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
1) I'd say move Quick Guard and Aerial Ace into Egg Moves. I like the flavor of both of these moves. Sky Attack could go after Hurricane in the Level Up pool at Level 70. Otherwise, the other moves can be sacked off (RIP Knock Off).

2) Here are the TM/TRs I think Cawmodore should have access to:

TM00 Mega Punch
TM06 Fly
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM16 Screech
TM21 Rest
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM30 Steel Wing
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM36 Whirlpool
TM37 Beat Up
TM39 Facade
TM40 Swift
TM42 Revenge
TM43 Brick Break
TM55 Brine
TM58 Assurance
TM63 Drain Punch
TM76 Round
TM78 Acrobatics
TM95 Air Slash

TR04 Surf
TR12 Agility
TR14 Metronome
TR20 Substitute
TR26 Endure
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR46 Iron Defense
TR70 Flash Cannon
TR74 Iron Head
TR89 Hurricane
TR95 Throat Chop


A few comments on these:

Whirlpool would be a nice nod to Cawmodore's Water-type flavor and sort of replaces Water Pulse.

Mega Punch, Beat Up, Revenge, and Assurance have good flavor and are inferior to moves that Cawmodore has and has had (Return in the case of Mega Punch).

Metronome is here because I'm on a quest for every CAP to have Metronome.

Throat Chop would be a weaker alternative to Knock Off, which Cawmodore should lose.

3) Finally, I have one more suggestion that's not exactly related to Cawmodore: removing Belly Drum from Cawmodore's Egg Moves. This has no implications for Cawmodore, as Belly Drum is its evolve move, but it has everything to do with Cawdet, Cawmodore's pre-evolution.

Last generation, Cawdet was broken in the two primary metagames it was allowed in: CAP LC and CAP NFE. It was banned in this CAP LC Tournament, CAPTT V, and CAPTT IV, and you can see multiple people calling for Cawdet's ban in a CAP NFE tournament (incidentally, you can also see some replays of it on those posts).

Since last generation, things haven't gotten better for checking Cawdet in either metagame. For reference (and I'm not going to go into too much detail since these are OMs), Cawdet hits an extremely coveted speed tier of 19 Speed in CAP LC, which ties with Wingull and Galarian Ponyta and is only outsped by Diglett and choice scarfers. Even then, few choice scarfers can adequately deal with it, especially with its access to STAB Bullet Punch or Quick Attack and Drain Punch, and it would totally warp the metagame around it, especially due to the lack of good Fire-types in the metagame and Electric-types' inability to hit it due to Volt Absorb.

In NFE, very few Pokemon naturally outspeed Cawdet or take its Belly Drum-boosted moves. An example of one pokemon that doesn't rely on Choice Scarf to outspeed it: +6 252 Atk Cawdet Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Drakloak: 205-243 (74 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I'm sure people more versed in NFE will be able to elaborate in much more detail than I can on this one, but just looking at the Viability Rankings and what I've read in discussion, Cawdet seems to stomp on the metagame if and when it gets a Bely Drum off.

What I'd like to see is Cawdet not have access to Belly Drum, and the only way for that to happen is for it to be removed from Cawmodore's Egg Moves. Cawdet still has a lot going for it otherwise; it's stats, Volt Absorb, and movepool will let it be a decent choice in Gen 8 CAP LC or NFE. Otherwise, these OMs will inevitably have to deal with this rather obviously broken Pokemon again this generation.
 
Considering Cawdet has been broken in Little Cup with Belly Drum, it would be a good idea to remove that move from Cawmodore's Egg move pool and place it as an evolving move. Even from a flavor standpoint, the little boid doesn't even have that big belli to drum with its hands.

Also, the Belly Drum sweeper we're working with doesn't really have room for Dark coverage like Knock Off, and that move lost a lot of distribution this generation, so I agree that the move can be stripped from Cawmodore without problems.
 
I'm not entirely in agreement on the removal of Knock Off for Cawmodore for two reasons:

1) With Heatran gone and Aegislash being back in the meta, Caw might actually prefer Dark coverage over Drain Punch considering most other relevant steels don't resist Acrobatics or can't KO Cawmodore back, though Throat Chop could do the trick too.
2) Even if we're not looking at Knock Off as a competitive option that Cawmodore might use, flavor-wise out of the list of Pokémon that retain Knock Off in Gen VIII quite a few are birds (Pelipper, Mandibuzz, Sirfetch'd, Decidueye, Ludicolo (is Ludicolo really a traditional bird? idk)) and even Swoobat gets it. The best place to throw Knock Off in this case might be Egg Moves, as that is where most of these examples learn it too.

I will of course retract my statement if Knock Off is deemed too powerful a tool over Drain Punch.

With that out of the way, I agree with all other things that have been mentioned before. Especially the removal of Belly Drum as an egg move. Also, I think moving Water Pulse to Egg Moves might be fun Water flavor, and it can get it from Pelipper. It would probably never be used as Surf is a stronger Water move.
 
Since Retaliate returns as a TM, Cawmodore could get it back in its TM list since it apparently had it for Gens 5 and 6. Also this gen, almost all bird Pokémon get Brave Bird, so I propose giving Cawmodore Brave Bird as a TR. It'd make it even better.

Also my version of its updated level up pool!

L1: Belly Drum, Laser Focus, Leer, Peck, Growl, Swift
Evo.: Belly Drum
L13: Metal Claw
L18: Screech
L22: Wing Attack
L26: Detect
L31: Steel Wing
L39: Bullet Punch
L44: Brine
L48: Tailwind
L52: Belch
L58: Flash Cannon
L64: Hurricane
L70: Sky Attack
 

MrDollSteak

CAP 1v1 me IRL
is a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Brave Bird is a move that might need some further discussion based on the above recommendation. The increase in power over Acrobatics is considerable, especially before Sitrus activates. Flavorwise, however, it does of course make a lot of sense.
 

snake

is a Community Leaderis a Top CAP Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
CAP Co-Leader
Since Retaliate returns as a TM, Cawmodore could get it back in its TM list since it apparently had it for Gens 5 and 6. Also this gen, almost all bird Pokémon get Brave Bird, so I propose giving Cawmodore Brave Bird as a TR. It'd make it even better.

Also my version of its updated level up pool!

L1: Belly Drum, Laser Focus, Leer, Peck, Growl, Swift
Evo.: Belly Drum
L13: Metal Claw
L18: Screech
L22: Wing Attack
L26: Detect
L31: Steel Wing
L39: Bullet Punch
L44: Brine
L48: Tailwind
L52: Belch
L58: Flash Cannon
L64: Hurricane
L70: Sky Attack
I’m actually just barely on the grid and using my small bit of service to say that Noctowl and Xatu are two birds that still don’t get Brave Bird.

Also to say that Cawmodore should get Metronome because I’m on a quest for all CAPs to get Metronome.
 
I’m actually just barely on the grid and using my small bit of service to say that Noctowl and Xatu are two birds that still don’t get Brave Bird.

Also to say that Cawmodore should get Metronome because I’m on a quest for all CAPs to get Metronome.
Hence why I said "almost all bird Pokémon". Primarily the physically oriented ones all get it now (they finally gave Unfezant it, which it should've had from the get go).
 
Flavor-wise, Brave Bird on Cawmodore makes a lot of sense. It's a physically offensive bird, while Noctowl and Xatu have some of the lowest Attack among bird Pokémon. It is a considerable power jump over Acrobatics and lets Cawmodore hold a different item, but I wouldn't mind seeing it added flavorfully.
 

Slapperfish

Banned deucer.
I know it's already got three abilities to its name, but I think it would be hilarious if Cawmodore got Gulp Missile as a flavor ability. Frigatebirds are just gaudier cormorants. :P
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
is a Top Artistis a Top CAP Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I went with the general community consensus here. Knock Off could see greater usage than Drain Punch this generation, so I kept it off the movepool. You will find Throat Punch here though. I added Sky Attack to Level 70 in the learnset as was requested by several users. Water Pulse only sees distribution on the Goomy line outside of Water-types, so I did not include it; Whirlpool however has a much greater distribution so I allowed it. Laser Focus is only on three Steel-type FEs, so I didn't find it justified on Cawmodore. I kept Metronome because I love snake can see Cawmodore waggling its "fingers" through Magistrum's eccentric depictions of this CAP.

I relegated Belly Drum to level-up only. You're welcome, Little Cup!

- Belly Drum
- Leer
- Peck
- Growl
- Swift
13 Metal Claw
18 Screech
22 Wing Attack
26 Detect
31 Steel Wing
39 Bullet Punch
44 Brine
48 Tailwind
52 Belch
58 Flash Cannon
64 Hurricane
70 Sky Attack
TM00 Mega Punch
TM06 Fly
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM16 Screech
TM21 Rest
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM30 Steel Wing
TM31 Attract
TM33 Rain Dance
TM36 Whirlpool
TM37 Beat Up
TM39 Facade
TM40 Swift
TM42 Revenge
TM43 Brick Break
TM55 Brine
TM58 Assurance
TM63 Drain Punch
TM76 Round
TM78 Acrobatics
TM95 Air Slash

TR04 Surf
TR12 Agility
TR14 Metronome
TR20 Substitute
TR26 Endure
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR46 Iron Defense
TR70 Flash Cannon
TR74 Iron Head
TR89 Hurricane
TR95 Throat Chop
Aerial Ace (Cramorant)
Drill Peck (Corviknight, Cramorant)
Metal Sound (Skarmory, Corviknight)
Quick Attack (Galarian Farfetch'd)
Quick Guard (Galarian Farfetch'd)
Steel Beam
 
Last edited:

dhelmise

everything is embarrassing
is a Site Content Manageris a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Top Dedicated Tournament Hostis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
Social Media Head
Code:
1 - Belly Drum
1 - Leer
1 - Peck
1 - Growl
1 - Swift
13 - Metal Claw
18 - Screech
22 - Wing Attack
26 - Detect
31 - Steel Wing
39 - Bullet Punch
44 - Brine
48 - Tailwind
52 - Belch
58 - Flash Cannon
64 - Hurricane
70 - Sky Attack
Egg - Aerial Ace
Egg - Drill Peck
Egg - Metal Sound
Egg - Quick Attack
Egg - Quick Guard
Tutor - Steel Beam
TM/TR - Mega Punch
TM/TR - Fly
TM/TR - Hyper Beam
TM/TR - Giga Impact
TM/TR - Screech
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Snore
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Steel Wing
TM/TR - Attract
TM/TR - Rain Dance
TM/TR - Whirlpool
TM/TR - Beat Up
TM/TR - Facade
TM/TR - Swift
TM/TR - Revenge
TM/TR - Brick Break
TM/TR - Brine
TM/TR - Assurance
TM/TR - Drain Punch
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - Acrobatics
TM/TR - Air Slash
TM/TR - Surf
TM/TR - Agility
TM/TR - Metronome
TM/TR - Substitute
TM/TR - Endure
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Iron Defense
TM/TR - Flash Cannon
TM/TR - Iron Head
TM/TR - Hurricane
TM/TR - Throat Chop
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top