Done Gen 8 CAP Updates - CAP11 - Voodoom

cbrevan

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:Voodoom: CAP11: Voodoom Generation 8 Update :Voodoom:

Hello! Welcome to the Generation 8 Voodoom update thread. In this thread, we will be updating the movepool of one of our past CAP creations to better match the changes Gamefreak made in Generation 8.

A major change that occurred between this update cycle and the last was to significantly narrow the scope of CAP updates. Abilities, statlines, and typings will not be changed during the course of this update. Only changes to a CAP's movepool will be allowed. Additionally, full movepool changes are also off the table, as the Update Leaders will decide where to distribute moves for their respective Pokemon based off logic and the ICC.

Furthermore, we have defined what type of changes are allowed to movepools, as well as the type of moves up for discussion. Movepool changes will be broken down in two categories: removals and additions. Moves that are subject to removal are those that have been rendered unusable in Sword and Shield, such as Pursuit, and past generation tutors and Technical Machiness that are not available as a Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Move that are subject to addition are moves introduced in Sword and Shield and moves that are new Generation 8 Technical Machines or Technical Records. Please make sure that any moves brought up in this thread fall under at least one of these categories.

We have also defined the following considerations for use in evaluating move removals and additions. The foremost consideration is that any change proposed fits both the flavor of the CAP in question and the flavor of Generation 8 as a whole. This means that all changes should follow trends and precedents seen in Generation 8. Intentional buffing and balancing of CAP Pokemon is not the intent of this update cycle. We also wish to avoid the creation of an unbalanced CAP Pokemon. Therefore, the second consideration for move changes is the competitive impact of said changes. Moves that are clearly too powerful will be banned from discussion by the Update Leader.

This update cycle also has a set schedule. For four weeks, each of the seven Update Leaders will post a discussion thread for a single CAP Pokemon. This thread will be used for the discussion of changes to a CAPs movepool as explained in this post. Each thread will have six days reserved for discussion on potential changes to a CAP's movepool. On the seventh day, the Update Leader will collect the ICC and determine what will be changed. Controversial changes will be subject to a poll.

For the discussion of Voodoom, please refer to this link for the CAP's full movepool. Some other resources the CAP mods have compiled to make discussion easier is this list of cut moves that are distributed to our CAP pokemon, and this list of past TMs that were not included as Gen 8 TMs and TRs. Note that for the TM list, moves with * are those that have been cut entirely.

This thread will be locked until cbrevan makes their leading post.
 

cbrevan

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Hello people! I'm here to guide you through the Voodoom update thread. On this journey, we will take our favorite voodoo doll (sorry Voodoll!) and edit its movepool to better match this generations flavor, trends, and precedents. Read the OP for more info on what exactly we'll be discussing.

Since Home means transferring past gen moves is a go, we're no longer having a removal discussion. Assume anything blue will be put into the transfer category if they aren't moved to the level-up or egg moves lists. This will help streamline the process greatly and I plan to close this thread quickly with that in mind.

As before, the movepool has been highlighted for ease of use. Refer to this post for the explanation behind Voodoom's level up movepool and other intricacies.

This is the color code for reading the movepool. I will be referring to these color codes throughout this thread.
Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move would only be available as a pre-Gen 8 transfer move through Pokemon Home
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves

- Revenge
- Night Slash
- Wrap
- Astonish
- Copycat
Evo: Revenge
7 Pain Split
11 Spite
15 Grudge
19 Charge
20 Follow Me
22 Tearful Look
25 Pin Missile
30 Feint Attack
35 Close Combat
40 Acupressure
45 Aura Sphere
48 Hex
50 Substitute
55 Beat Up
61 Foul Play
(Egg Groups: Human-like / Field)

Baton Pass (Mr. Mime)
Counter (Hitmonchan)
Imprison (Vulpix)
Mach Punch (Hitmonchan)
Memento (Stunky)
Metronome (will move to TR/TM)
Mimic (Mr. Mime)
Nasty Plot (will move to TR/TM)
Nightmare (no available donors)
Perish Song (Cursola->Popplio)
Power Trip (Morpeko)
Pursuit
Screech (Meowth)
Smelling Salts
TM List
TM01 - Work Up
TM06 – Toxic
TM08 – Bulk Up
TM10 – Hidden Power
TM11 – Sunny Day
TM12 – Taunt
TM15 – Hyper Beam
TM17 – Protect
TM21 – Frustration
TM24 - Thunderbolt
TM26 – Earthquake
TM27 – Return
TM29 – Psychic
TM31 – Brick Break
TM32 - Double Team
TM41 – Torment

TM42 – Façade
TM44 – Rest
TM45 – Attract
TM47 - Low Sweep
TM48 - Round
TM46 – Thief
TM52 – Focus Blast
TM56 – Fling
TM58 – Endure
TM66 – Payback
TM67 - Smart Strike
TM68 – Giga Impact
TM71 – Stone Edge
TM73 – Thunder Wave
TM78 - Bulldoze
TM79 – Dark Pulse
TM80 – Rock Slide
TM85 – Dream Eater
TM87 – Swagger

TM88 – Sleep Talk
TM90 – Substitute
TM91 - Flash Cannon
TM95 - Snarl
TM97 - Dark Pulse
TM100 - Confide
After You (Gen 5 & 6 Tutor)
Captivate (Gen 4 TM)

Drain Punch (Gen 4 TM / Gen 5 & 6 Tutor)
Focus Punch (Gen 4 TM / Gen 6 Tutor)
Foul Play (Gen 5 & 6 Tutor)
Hyper Voice (Gen 5 & 6 Tutor)
Ice Punch (Gen 4, 5 & 6 Tutor)
Knock Off (Gen 4, 5 & 6 Tutor)
Low Kick (Gen 4, 5 & 6 Tutor)
Magic Coat (Gen 4, 5 & 6 Tutor)
Magic Room (Gen 5 & 6 Tutor)
Mud Slap (Gen 4 Tutor)
Natural Gift (TM83 in Gen 4)
Pain Split (Gen 5 & 6 Tutor)
Power-Up Punch (Gen 6 TM)

Retaliate (Gen 5 & 6 TM)
Rock Smash (HM06 in Gen 6)
Secret Power (TM94 in Gen 6 ORAS)
Shock Wave (TM34 in Gen 4)

Snatch (TM49 in Gen 4)

Snore (Gen 4, 5 & 6 Tutor)
Spite (Gen 4, 5 & 6 Tutor)
Strength (Gen 4, 5 & 6 HM)

Uproar (Gen 4, 5 & 6 Tutor)
Vacuum Wave(Gen 4 Tutor)

Past Gen TMs:
Captivate (TM78 in Gen 4)
Drain Punch (TM60 in Gen 4)
Focus Punch (TM01 in Gen 4)
Natural Gift (TM83 in Gen 4)
Rock Smash (HM06 in Gen 6)
Secret Power (TM94 in Gen 6 ORAS)
Shock Wave (TM34 in Gen 4)
Snatch (TM49 in Gen 4)
Strength (HM04 in Gen 6)

We have two topics to discuss in this thread. The first is the addition of any moves introduced in Gen 8, or moves that have seen a large increase in distribution this generation. The second topic will be what to do with the hole Feint Attack has left in Voodoom's movepool. You're free to discuss either topic interchangeably, but keep in mind that additions are more important to discuss than an empty movepool slot.

As usual, there following considerations must be given to any move brought up as an addition.
1. The move has to follow both this generation's trends and fit Voodoom's overall flavor.
2. The move cannot be a significant buff to Voodoom. For the sake of this thread, a significant buff is any move that changes poor or neutral matchups in Voodoom's favor.

I plan to replace the level up slot based off user suggestions; if none are suggested I'll choose a suitable move from Voodom's transfer list.

I plan to close this thread on Thursday, March 12. This gives us the five days to discuss potential additions. I'm putting this thread through its spaces because Home's decided half of the discussion for us, and I don't want to delay any further with CAP 27 ongoing.
 
New moves that can fit Voodoom are Darkest Lariat because it can swing its long arms. Assurance works too since it's a Dark-type and Scrafty and Pangoro both get Assurance too. Mega Punch and Mega Kick are basic moves that almost if not all Fighting-types get. Since it's a large Pokémon, Body Slam, Body Press, and High Horsepower can work. These are moves that a couple of Fighting-types get.
 

G-Luke

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Nothing about Voodoom suggests that it is a particularly large Pokemon. Its 75.5 kg, and is rather lanky than anything else. I agree with the other suggestions though, and I could even see an argument for the move Mystical Fire, with voodoo origins of the CAP. Not sure exactly what matchups this shakes so don't take it for gospel.
 
Nothing about Voodoom suggests that it is a particularly large Pokemon. Its 75.5 kg, and is rather lanky than anything else. I agree with the other suggestions though, and I could even see an argument for the move Mystical Fire, with voodoo origins of the CAP. Not sure exactly what matchups this shakes so don't take it for gospel.
Mystical Fire would be a cool addition, but that could go into the too competitive territory and it would be up to other mods if they want that. Then if you feel that it doesn't need Body Press, Body Slam or High Horsepower then that's fine.
 
I've wanted Voodoom to get steel coverage for ages. It has a large needle after all. But I suppose the fact that it would really appreciate steel coverage makes it too competitive?
 

G-Luke

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I've wanted Voodoom to get steel coverage for ages. It has a large needle after all. But I suppose the fact that it would really appreciate steel coverage makes it too competitive?
Voodoom knows Flash Cannon.
 
I guess Nightmare can take Feint Attack's slot, it fits the flavor of being a cursed doll.
Edit: D’OH forgot it was snapped, either Brutal Swing or Assurance could take the spot, they’re both 60 BP Dark moves that make flavor sense.
 
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Adeleine

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Psycho Cut, as TM, seems to match its disposition well. Gallade and Liepard would be moderately comparable users. Voodoom also does learn Psychic.

False Swipe as a TM feels a fitting flavor addition. Refusing to finish off its target as to maximize its revenge and inflicted pain.

Thunder Punch feels odd to be absent, given its electric affiliation and learning Drain Punch and Ice Punch. Is there a reason for this I'm unaware of?
E: Ah. But it does have Thunderbolt... hmm.

Retaliate no longer needs to be a transfer move, being a TM in this generation.

I support its learning of Mystical Fire, Brutal Swing, Darkest Lariat, Mega Punch, Assurance, and Mega Kick.
 
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According to the archives, Electric, Fire, and Grass attacks were disallowed so that Voodoom could be checked/countered by bulky Waters and certain Steel or Bug types like Scizor and Heracross without drawbacks. Funny enough, Needle Arm (snapped) and Thunder Shock were allowed but didn't end up in its movepool.
 
Steel Beam although potentially fitting theme wise, might mess with checks and counters.

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Jumbao: 330-390 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Having rocks up is a 5/6 OHKO chance without a boost, and it out speeds, so Jumbao can no longer freely switch in even without needing Nasty Plot set up.

To clarify, I support that Voodoom should get Steel Beam: but if the optics of the thread prevent it, then a specific balance pass thread should be used.

Can I make a suggestion for Court Change? It seems fitting, flavour wise at least, making others feel pain in revenge for how they make others do, but would give Voodoom some additional utility. However, with Voodoom being so crap in a strong fairy meta, and needing 3 moves+NP to make a dent in targets, I can't see it being too useable.
 
Steel Beam although potentially fitting theme wise, might mess with checks and counters.

252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Jumbao: 330-390 (85 - 100.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

Having rocks up is a 5/6 OHKO chance without a boost, and it out speeds, so Jumbao can no longer freely switch in even without needing Nasty Plot set up.

To clarify, I support that Voodoom should get Steel Beam: but if the optics of the thread prevent it, then a specific balance pass thread should be used.

Can I make a suggestion for Court Change? It seems fitting, flavour wise at least, making others feel pain in revenge for how they make others do, but would give Voodoom some additional utility. However, with Voodoom being so crap in a strong fairy meta, and needing 3 moves+NP to make a dent in targets, I can't see it being too useable.
No. Steel Beam is only learned by Steel-types or Pokémon with Steel-type alternate forms (Silvally, Zacian, Zamazenta). Voodoom fits none of those criteria. As for Court Change, that's currently exclusive to Cinderace and wouldn't fit Voodoom's flavour anyways.

Also, this:
As usual, there following considerations must be given to any move brought up as an addition.
1. The move has to follow both this generation's trends and fit Voodoom's overall flavor.
2. The move cannot be a significant buff to Voodoom. For the sake of this thread, a significant buff is any move that changes poor or neutral matchups in Voodoom's favor.
By this definition, Steel Beam is a significant buff to Voodoom. Court Change could also affect Voodoom's matchup against most hazard setters, so that may be a significant buff as well.
 

MrPanda

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I know this will be a big no, but I would like to state here my support for adding Spirit Break to the Voodoom movepool.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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We are running on a different timeline for these final updates. As you can tell here we are going to be finishing all CAP updates TOMORROW (Friday) from 8am to midnight CST. Below is a list of every suggestion that has been made in this thread to the movepool in the OP. If you have more to suggest, please do them via post or (preferably) Discord.

>> Please join our Discord channel by clicking here. We'll be discussing these updates LIVE all day! <<

Below are the suggestions that have been made thus far in this thread. The parentheses represent the recommended move to remove in order to make move. Brackets represent breeding partners, while a strikethrough represents something that was discussed, but is vetoed by later discussion for being too competitively relevant. A '' symbolizes that it a bullet point that's it's a conditional change base on its header change becoming approved.

Suggested Movepool Movement:
Retaliate to TM

Suggested New Moves:
Darkest Lariat
Assurance to Level Up (Feint Attack)
Mega Punch
Mega Kick
Body Slam
Body Press
High Horsepower
Brutal Swing to Level Up (Feint Attack)
Psycho Cut
False Swipe
Thunder Punch
Steel Beam
Court Change
Spirit Break
 
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cbrevan

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Voodoom has been finished with feedback from our discord!

We've chosen to add Assurance, Darksest Lariat, Brutal Swing, and Throat Chop to Voodoom. Assurance was chosen for its flavor connection to Voodoom's movepool and Cursed Body. Darkest Lariat, Throat Chop, and Brutal Swing are all physical moves that saw increased distribution this gen, including among fighting and dark types.

The change to Voodoom's level up list are as follows: Assurance to level 30

Onto what was disallowed, Steel Beam was banned for only being learned by Steel types, Court Change and Spirit Breaker for being competitive signature moves, Mega Punch and Mega Kick were deemed unneccessary with our other additions, Body Press and High Horsepower were deemed incompatible with Voodoom's design aesthetics, and False Swipe and Thunder Punch were deemed invalid because they've already had extended widespread coverage in past gen tms and tutors.

Thanks to everyone who chimed in on Discord and posted in this thread!

Assurance to level 30 LU
Darkest Lariat to TM/TR
Brutal Swing to TM/TR
Throat Chop to TM/TR
 

Birkal

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Final movepool! This is all thanks to Wulfanator72; I'm just relaying his updates. Thanks man.

1 Revenge
1 Night Slash
1 Wrap
1 Astonish
1 Copycat
1 Pain Split
1 Spite
15 Grudge
19 Charge
20 Follow Me
22 Tearful Look
25 Pin Missile
30 Assurance
35 Close Combat
40 Acupressure
45 Aura Sphere
48 Hex
50 Substitute
55 Beat Up
61 Foul Play
Evolution: Revenge
Baton Pass (Mr. Mime)
Counter (Hitmonchan)
Mach Punch (Hitmonchan)
Memento (Stunky)
Mimic (Mr. Mime)
Perish Song (Cursola->Popplio)
Power Trip (Morpeko)
TM04 Ice Punch
TM08 Hyper Beam
TM09 Giga Impact
TM14 Thunder Wave
TM16 Screech
TM21 Rest
TM22 Rock Slide
TM23 Thief
TM24 Snore
TM25 Protect
TM31 Attract
TM34 Sunny Day
TM39 Façade
TM43 Brick Break
TM44 Imprison
TM57 Payback
TM59 Fling
TM63 Drain Punch
TM72 Magic Room
TM75 Low Sweep
TM76 Round
TM79 Retaliate
TM81 Bulldoze
TM85 Snarl
TM96 Smart Strike
TM97 Brutal Swing
TR07 Low Kick
TR08 Thunderbolt
TR10 Earthquake
TR11 Psychic
TR14 Metronome
TR20 Substitute
TR26 Endure
TR27 Sleep Talk
TR35 Uproar
TR37 Taunt
TR42 Hyper Voice
TR48 Bulk Up
TR58 Dark Pulse
TR64 Focus Blast
TR68 Nasty Plot
TR70 Flash Cannon
TR75 Stone Edge
TR81 Foul Play
TR85 Work Up
TR93 Darkest Lariat
TR95 Throat Chop
After You (Gen 5 & 6 Tutor)
Captivate (Gen 4 TM)
Focus Punch (Gen 4 TM / Gen 6 Tutor)
Knock Off (Gen 4, 5 & 6 Tutor)
Magic Coat (Gen 4, 5 & 6 Tutor)
Mud Slap (Gen 4 Tutor)
Natural Gift (Gen 4 TM)
Pain Split (Gen 5 & 6 Tutor)
Power-Up Punch (Gen 6 TM)
Rock Smash (Gen 4 & 6 HM / Gen 5 & 6 TM)
Secret Power (Gen 6 TM)
Shock Wave (Gen 4 TM)
Snatch (Gen 4 TM)
Spite (Gen 4, 5 & 6 Tutor)
Strength (Gen 4, 5 & 6 HM)
Vacuum Wave (Gen 4 Tutor)
 
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dhelmise

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Code:
1 - Revenge
1 - Night Slash
1 - Wrap
1 - Astonish
1 - Copycat
1 - Pain Split
1 - Spite
15 - Grudge
19 - Charge
20 - Follow Me
22 - Tearful Look
25 - Pin Missile
30 - Assurance
32 - Revenge
35 - Close Combat
40 - Acupressure
45 - Aura Sphere
48 - Hex
50 - Substitute
55 - Beat Up
61 - Foul Play
Egg - Baton Pass
Egg - Counter
Egg - Imprison
Egg - Mach Punch
Egg - Memento
Egg - Mimic
Egg - Perish Song
Egg - Power Trip
Egg - Screech
TM/TR - Ice Punch
TM/TR - Hyper Beam
TM/TR - Giga Impact
TM/TR - Thunder Wave
TM/TR - Screech
TM/TR - Rest
TM/TR - Rock Slide
TM/TR - Thief
TM/TR - Snore
TM/TR - Protect
TM/TR - Attract
TM/TR - Sunny Day
TM/TR - Façade
TM/TR - Brick Break
TM/TR - Imprison
TM/TR - Payback
TM/TR - Fling
TM/TR - Drain Punch
TM/TR - Magic Room
TM/TR - Low Sweep
TM/TR - Round
TM/TR - Retaliate
TM/TR - Bulldoze
TM/TR - Snarl
TM/TR - Smart Strike
TM/TR - Brutal Swing
TM/TR - Low Kick
TM/TR - Thunderbolt
TM/TR - Earthquake
TM/TR - Psychic
TM/TR - Metronome
TM/TR - Substitute
TM/TR - Endure
TM/TR - Sleep Talk
TM/TR - Uproar
TM/TR - Taunt
TM/TR - Hyper Voice
TM/TR - Bulk Up
TM/TR - Dark Pulse
TM/TR - Focus Blast
TM/TR - Nasty Plot
TM/TR - Flash Cannon
TM/TR - Stone Edge
TM/TR - Foul Play
TM/TR - Work Up
TM/TR - Darkest Lariat
TM/TR - Throat Chop
 
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Wulfanator

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Doom needs these TM/TR that appear in level-up moveset
TMS: revenge, pin missile, assurance, hex, beat up
TRS: close combat, aura sphere
 
Baton Pass, Imprison and Screech are TM/TR moves, and Revenge, Pin Missile, Assurance, Hex, Beat Up, Close Combat and Aura Sphere are missing from the TM/TR list
 

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