Metagame Free-For-All

Stall definitely feels like the big strategy so far, since everyone's picked up on how easy it survives in ffa it's not hard to find games with like 2-3 other people running stall teams.

It's not that surprising but I was hoping to see the social game part be more important than mostly just super defense. It's a lot harder to coordinate attacks on on the Clefables and Mews running around when most of the Pokemon are sleepy passive lads.
 
I think for fun strats, new bans would have to be implemented so the meta doesn't become an OP boring stall fest. I recommend banning some stall staples (Ex: Blissey, Clef, Toxapex) to lower the strength of the playstyle and open doors for new playstyles. And I know 99% of us don't want hour long games in ffa cause of staal being so strong.
 
I'd oppose any bans at this juncture. I feel the meta is still unexplored, and stall isn't nearly as dominant as it appears at first glance. Stall is great if you want to consistently win in matches where you're up against 3 unprepared players, it has a lot harder time if even one opponent is bringing a well-built meta team with a good defensive core backed up by stallbreakers. I actually don't feel stall is OP, it's just really good at beating on unprepared opponents. And that's kinda true in any meta; stall is very consistent at breaking through low ladder, and since we don't really have a true ranked ladder every game is technically low ladder in FFA right now.

I'd add that I've found trapping moves to be very dangerous to passive stall teams. If Slowbro/Slowking catches Toxapex with a Block or Whirlpool there is nothing it can do when Future Sight comes out. Just throwing out Whirlpools or Blocks randomly can catch regenerators trying to slink in and out for free recovery.
 
The biggest problem with stall is that a lot of its best answers are less effective against multiple pokemon at once. You can have your stallbreaker taunt a mon to stop it from using toxic on you, but if there's a second staller in the game that also decides to toxic you then your mon is in a rough place, maybe out of the game if you don't have status removal/your cleric is dead.

The same thing goes for nearly anything that isn't a pokemon on a dedicated stall team. Your Slowbro can't sit out and trap Chansey/Clefable/etc if there happens to be a Zapdos on the field. Bulky offense mons can't hang with three other pokemon that can all sponge their attacks and wear them out over time. Frail mons like Weavile and Regieleki have to be played very carefully to do anything in a meta like this, and they tend to make themselves the biggest targets along with offensive setup.

Stall is, from what I've been seeing, the only playstyle that reliably avoids most of these problems and can sit in comfortably. Other strategies require extremely good play and predictions against three other people to be as effective as just bringing a stall team, which makes them more attractive to use and feeds back into the problem of games often being bogged down by having several of them at once.

I do agree that it's too early to make any bans yet, and it'd be better to see how the meta plays out for now. But this is why I think it would be a good idea to keep an eye on some of the bigger stall offenders (Clefable, Ferrothorn, Toxapex etc) going forward.
 

shnowshner

You've Gotta Try
is a Pre-Contributor
Right, so it's late and I don't have work tomorrow. Free-For-All is playable on Showdown and there's no ladder, meaning every game largely doesn't matter. If there's no real goal to strive for, might as well play for fun. Feel like doing a little trolling.

Expectation: run into various tryhard teams and harass them with weird obnoxious Pokemon sets. Laugh manically as opponents are bamboozled.

Result: What the fuck. What the actual shit. I don't think I've ever experienced such absolute fucking dread as watching this game unfold. This entire interaction between four random people on the internet has left me devoid of happiness. My only wish was to be a funny troll; instead there is only misery, confusion, anger

in other words we def need that AG Free-For-All playable ASAP and although laddering is certainly going to be strange I would like some degree of ranking to come soon. Every game being low-ladder simulator except even less people are actually attempting to win doesn't exactly make for an interesting meta, even if it can be hilarious. At least there's progress being made towards an actual ladder but for now I really don't see a reason to try anything serious since it feels impossible to gauge the value of any particular Pokemon or strategy when all three of the other people in the lobby are just spamming moves like Heal Pulse or Decorate.

I've heard Stall is good and that doesn't surprise me, but I also have no doubt in my mind that in a more competitive environment, a non-Stall player's automatic response to seeing Stall is to go absolutely nuclear on it, and when you have three people who potentially want to erase you from the match, seems pretty inconsistent. Especially if rankings come into play, with more experienced players knowing the threat Stall poses, I can see lots of "truces" form in order to eliminate Stall players.

Which, of course, means you can embrace your role as the villain and take advantage of the big red target on Stall teams by making your own selfish plays to secure the game. How horribly evil! Just hope everyone else doesn't do the same. Incredible mindgame potential.

Anyway here's some actual thoughts:

Speed Control is pretty nice. :regieleki: Regieleki is the obvious Electroweb user, but I also wanted to look into Icy Wind as it has no immunities and discovered :pheromosa: Pheromosa is unbanned. It could be pretty good, I bet lots of players will want to squish it and its abysmal defenses but if you want to slow everything down right away it does the trick.

I also decided to try :klefki: Klefki and it very well could be one of the most annoying things in the game. Prankster Spikes gets hazards up super quick, you can inflict Status on things to deal with certain threats, and it gets Magic Coat, which is super good versus other hazard leads and the like. It doesn't pose any real threat but if the opponent ignores you just keep clicking Spikes and harassing your opponents.

:zarude: Zarude was another experiment as its got a great combo of recovery + status healing + setup, and with Darkest Lariat can beat opposing setup. Taunt is another great move for it as Lariat generally does the job, meaning it could be a real pain for Stall teams with the right support. It's also pretty fast at 105 meaning it can outspeed Mew which I've seen a great deal of.

Intimidate is everywhere it feels. I think you could make a lot of progress with a Defiant/Competive user to take advantage of that. There's a good chunk of other stat-lowering moves being tossed around as well.

Spread Moves are certainly efficient in terms of raw damage across the board but my god are they bad at actually nabbing KOs. The damage reduction is incredibly harsh, which is a problem; if I'm running EQ I probably don't have room for single-target Ground coverage, but then running single-target moves means Protect is an issue, and so is your target getting KO'd prior, wasting your entire turn. Being able to hit really hard with Spread moves requires some insane stuff like Eruption Heatran.

Hazards definitely have a lot of impact in Free-For-All and are not only a good thing to have on hand, but preparing your team with anti-hazard measures can go a long way. Being resilient against hazards seems to be more worthwhile IMO as the odds of one of your opponents having hazards is quite high, meaning you really won't need them as much if someone else is going to gimp the other two opponents anyhow. Toxic Spikes especially are very potent, so bringing along a Poison type that can deal with them on the spot looks incredibly valuable.
 
So after playing probably 20 games of this I have a lot of thoughts, so buckle in.

General thoughts: This meta really is not fun at all but I keep playing it. It's filled with cheese, unfun stalling, players who just want to troll you or lose as quickly as possible, and oftentime you will be punished if one of your opponents makes a bad play, even if you predict it. On top of all of this, it is an unrated ladder which is fair, but leads to it feeling even more uncompetitive because of all the bads, early forfeits, and trolling that goes on. In games where multiple players survive into the endgame it often becomes a game of hoping that one of your opponents chokes and gives you a chance to do something. I think in order to enjoy this meta you need to discount some fundemental things about Pokemon which is that, hax and team matchup not withstanding generally the better player can win. In this you are also at the whims of the other players, some of whom aren't always playing to win, and you can absolutely get fucked over if one player decides to target you specifically for no reason because they are losing. So basically this shit is like inherently unfun for some people probably lol.

Spread moves: Spread moves are okay, but they are really too weak to be used as your main source of damage when cut down to only 50% base power. This is not like doubles where you can punish an opponent for switching in on your weak spread move with your other mon. I'd say they are only really viable if they're on some sort of extremely powerful attacker (like Specs Eruption Heatran for example), or if you're using them for some sort of utility. Stuff like Discharge and Lava Plume are great for potentially inflicting status which can be a game-changer sometimes, stuff like Bulldoze and Electroweb is generally not because they are generally way too weak and controlling speed isn't always a big thing in this format when everything is stalling. I've only seen it a couple of times, but Corrosive Gas has been very effective in longer games.

Hazards: Hazards are like the opposite of spread moves in that they were even stronger than expected. You get a lot of great value out of hitting three sides at once with hazards. Toxic Spikes are great for stall teams to weaken opponents and I'd recommend that most offenses pack some kind of Toxic Spikes absorber if possible. Spikes are good too because with opponents hazard controlling and being able to set up 3 layers there's generally no real downside to clicking Spikes whenever you can on a free turn. Ferrothorn is probably the best Spiker, and it generally always can find something to do on free turns between Spikes and Leech Seed. I've seen some stalls running Boots on everything which can hurt the luster of hazards a little bit but stuff like Knock Off and Corrosive Gas can help against that. Stealth Rock is good too, and even Sticky Web has some use, although controlling speed usually isn't that much of a big thing since a lot of players are stalling.

Stall: I think stall teams have a lot of purchase but they are a bit overrated and in time we'll see the meta shift to reflect that. I think a team with some sort of core that can keep longevity against opposing stall strategies while keeping a breaker and a speed controller in the back as well as an extra bulky attacker can have the stuff to break through stalls in the endgame. Part of what makes stall strong is that players tend to prioritize the Pokemon on the field that poses the greatest immediate threat to their own Pokemon, meaning that players will often avoid stalling players letting them spam Wish+Protect or whatever they are doing. As players get better at this meta people will get better at prioritizing threats in the long-term, rather than just the short-term, and players will also be better at brokering alliances between the other players. That is something you can't really do with most of the randoms at this stage in the game since I swear most of the people playing this format barely understand how the game works.

The above are all mons that are legal in this and are more than capable of lurking in the back and coming out to destroy an unsuspecting stall team late game. These are all mons that are absolutely insane in singles based formats like OU, which is often what FFA feels like, especially in the endgame. They all paint a big target on their heads but if you use them tactically you can avoid some of the downsides of using such a threat. The format naturally incentivizes passive play, but there are definitely powerful options for punishing that play. It's just a matter of getting to an endgame where they can thrive.

Playerbase: The worst part of this format is probably the players. Especially since it is an unrated format currently, it's virtually impossible to get a game that reflects what a match between four experienced players in this metagame would look like. Most games consist of the following:
  • two actual players
  • one player who forfeits either immediately or within the first two turns
  • one player who trolls the entire game or just fucks around with completely unviable strategies.
At this point it's basically just an OU game with a bunch of mons that are broken in singles legal and one extra 1000-ranked player messing around in the background. Trying to get an actual game in this is hellish. Also, when a player is losing, a lot of the time they tend to favour helping one player over another (if they don't forfeit super early). It's definitely bad sportsmanship, I guess, if you can prove it's happening, but there's not much you can do about it. There's also a severe influx of players running stuff like Decorate Alcremie, mons with dumb stuff like Follow Me, Helping Hand, and other strategies designed to "tactically" help your opponents (although most of the players using stuff like this are just trolling), as well as players using stuff like six explosion mons. Until there is some sort of ranked ladder players will have to deal with this shit but I doubt merely having a ladder will fix some of the other inherent uncompetitiveness of this meta. Basically I'm saying that learning to enjoy this meta might be an exercise.

Banlist: Not sure what to make of the banlist at this point. I feel like starting out with a banlist similar to Doubles doesn't quite seem right with me, especially since this meta feels a lot like singles at times, but at the same time lots of threats that are broken in Singles don't quite feel broken here because they are too frail, or are too exploitable early game, or can be picked off if they hit something that Protects, or they are just too big of a target to accomplish anything while multiple players are left. I think overall it's just too early in the game to say what is broken and what isn't although I'd probably keep an eye on certain ubiquitous stall mons, and maybe also Gothitelle (shit's not fair lol). Also I retract my previous support for unbanning Swagger (not really) because players will definitely use it to troll and just make everything worse.
 
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Been quiet here over the weekend, so I'd like to talk about some sets that I've found interesting or to be serious threats in the meta:


Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Magma Storm
- Earth Power
- Lava Plume/Toxic
- Protect

Heatran is incredibly good and if you aren't prepared for it then it can destroy you. Trapping moves are excellent in their own right, locking down enemies and preventing them from switching out while racking up passive damage, and Magma Storm is grand daddy of trapping moves with its enormous ongoing damage. Earth Power is a must-have to trap and remove Toxapex as well as to avoid being helpless against opposing Heatran (more about that below). Lava Plume can be used to spread burns, while Toxic is great since most Heatran switch-ins do not appreciate it in the slightest.

What I'm not certain of is what the best spread for Heatran is. On the one hand, Heatran vs Heatran is a very common occurrence since it's immune to most of its own moves, and whoever is faster nukes the other with Earth Power. On the other hand, Heatran lacks reliable recovery and is vulnerable to getting chipped down by everything else on the field and this can prevent it from doing its job consistently. Right now I'm running bulk and just keep a good switch-in to opposing Heatrans, but if Heatran ends up being a ubiquitous presence in this meta (which is entirely possible, it is very good and quite splashable) then that might not be a good idea.


Jirachi @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Doom Desire
- Future Sight
- Wish
- Protect

This set is just delightful. I don't think it's the best Jirachi, but the paranoia it instills is hilarious. Doom Desire and Future Sight both work the same way, foreseeing an attack that hits several turns later that goes through Protect. However, it doesn't say who is the target of the attack until it actually happens, leading to mind-games and paranoid switches because no one really knows who is getting hit. These are 140/120 BP STAB moves, no one wants to be on the receiving end of them. Jirachi can also act as a Wish passer, using these paranoid turns in order to get a safer pass. If you're looking to cause chaos without bringing outright memes, I think this is a great set.


Slowking-Galar @ Black Sludge
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Whirlpool
- Future Sight
- Sludge Bomb

I've increasingly come to dislike Toxapex in this meta. It's great at surviving, but just about every decently-built team has a grounded Poison-type to remove Toxic Spikes and aside from just existing all it does is Knock Off and Haze. And since a lot of the Pokemon you want to Haze are packing Stored Power it's not exactly reliable at the latter. Slowking-G trades off some bulk to get rid of that passivity. It keeps many of the great qualities of Toxapex - immunity to Toxic, removes Toxic Spikes, and has Regenerator plus reliable recovery. However, it has a 120 BP move coming off of a 110 base SpA stat. Its Sludge Bomb gives it an immediate attack that can spread poison status. Whirlpool is incredibly useful for preventing targets from switching; this can give another player a clean shot to eliminate a threat you want gone, or can force something to take a Future Sight. Even just the passive damage can be nice. For the early phase of the match where you want to stay healthy while wearing down enemies, this guy delivers in spades. Unfortunately Slowking-G doesn't get Toxic (a Poison-type that doesn't get Toxic... ffs gen 8...) but everything else here just comes together. Slowking-G's time on the field will keep the rest of your team healthier for the end-game while inflicting damage to the other players.

I experimented with Eerie Spell to PP stall enemies, but unfortunately it's screwed over by its own 8 pp and I can't recommend it. Just go with a Pressure user instead if you want to do PP stall.
 
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Free-For-All is fun but what ruins it for me is that it is incredibly easy to cheat. You can easily just log in using 3 different accounts and then beat some poor dude who thinks that he is up against 3 different people but in reality is fighting the same guy using 3 different accounts. This is pretty consistent, especially because when it goes wrong you often still get 2 accounts in the same battle thus still making it easy to win.

I think that unless an effective measure against this kind of cheating is implemented a ranked ladder would be a bad idea. The top of such a ladder would probably just a bunch of cheaters all using multiple accounts.

Two of my few favourite strategies based on this concept are Round and Beat Up. Beat Up has the added advantage that you attack your own Pokemon thus making it less obvious that you are teaming up. When used with trustworthy sounding names like I did in the replays this strategy can be very hard to spot.
 
Free-For-All is fun but what ruins it for me is that it is incredibly easy to cheat. You can easily just log in using 3 different accounts and then beat some poor dude who thinks that he is up against 3 different people but in reality is fighting the same guy using 3 different accounts. This is pretty consistent, especially because when it goes wrong you often still get 2 accounts in the same battle thus still making it easy to win.

I think that unless an effective measure against this kind of cheating is implemented a ranked ladder would be a bad idea. The top of such a ladder would probably just a bunch of cheaters all using multiple accounts.

Two of my few favourite strategies based on this concept are Round and Beat Up. Beat Up has the added advantage that you attack your own Pokemon thus making it less obvious that you are teaming up. When used with trustworthy sounding names like I did in the replays this strategy can be very hard to spot.
I can see what you mean when encountering an opponent using 3 different accounts and how easy it is to cheat.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8freeforall-1341617614-ajbpnvl9j1s4tsdgb3dtc51r6ez4regpw
Notice how there are three teams with the exact same Pokemon targeting the different team (me), but when I forfeit first, everyone else leaves. It's also possible a group of 2 or 3 friends could hop on ladder at the right time and agree not to attack each other which would be unfair for the person joining in.
 
That sort of griefing is a serious issue. The fact that people are pulling this sort of thing on an unranked format is troubling, and it would likely be rife in a ranked format. The rules against this will necessarily need to be narrowly-tailored, since teaming up against a common threat is a normal part of this format. It's specifically queuing up for matches with the intent of double-teaming that's the problem. However, provided the griefers aren't being too overt about it this would be almost impossible to enforce. It is quite common for an end-game to play out with three players left, one of which has no chance of winning but can effectively serve as the kingmaker. If you have two friends in the same game they can play 100% seriously but then consistently assist each other in the end-game, and it could look completely legitimate while giving a huge laddering advantage. We can't even look for players who happen to match up against each other frequently, either. I frequently play at the same time as Nuclearstomp and we match up against each other very often. Due to how many people are needed to fill a single game and the small size of our community it is completely normal to encounter the same people on a regular basis.

While I'm here, I think I'll drop a couple teams that have been doing very well for me. There is some overlap between these teams; that's partially because I tend to start new teams by using Pokemon that served well on previous teams, and also because I feel that some Pokemon (like Heatran, Kyurem-B, and Slowking-G) are just really good and tend to do their jobs very well, so teams featuring them tend to do better. Toxic and Toxic Spikes are devastating, and are very restrictive on building in my opinion. Your core needs to be pretty much impervious to them, and if your win-cons are vulnerable to T-Spikes you will usually need a grounded Poison-type to remove them consistently. There aren't very many viable Heal Bell/Aromatherapy users, and this means there are a bunch of otherwise great Pokemon that can only fit on very narrow compositions since they need that support. Without Heal Bell/Aromatherapy, one random Toxic can ruin your entire core and lead to a downward spiral towards defeat.

:Kyurem-Black::Azumarill::Chansey::Zapdos::Slowking-Galar::Jirachi:
This is a team I built around Perish Trap Azumarill, using Rest to keep it healthy and Heal Bell support from Chansey to wake it up. It uses a Chansey/Zapdos/Slowking-G core for longevity, Azumarill to strategically remove key threats, then either Kyurem or Jirachi to win in the end-game. I would warn that this Jirachi set is very inconsistent; while it's a great win-con if Dark-types are removed, a lot of players keep a Dark-type in the back for the end-game and that completely ruins this set. You can substitute in any Calm Mind sweeper of your choice.

:Suicune::Corviknight::Scizor::Zygarde::Heatran::Mew:
I wanted to experiment with resttalk, and I was impressed by this team. Both Suicune and Zygarde are excellent at setting up and just being irremovable. I do find Zygarde is overly-passive; due to Thousand Arrows being a spread move it is surprisingly survivable even at +6. However, it is very hard to dislodge and can still cause a lot of havoc both early-game and late-game. Suicune is absolutely excellent with Pressure and is great at setting up and just breaking stuff. The Corviknight set is kind cheeky and I wanted to try it out; it's inconsistent but when it works it really works. Scizor serves as our hazard remover and pivot. Mew serves as our hazard setter and our only Toxic vulnerability. We can get away with this since Mew shouldn't be hitting the field very often, but you really do want to keep it around to reset hazards and force the hazard removers to keep coming back in. Lastly we have Heatran to trap and remove irritating threats.

:Heatran::Slowking-Galar::Corviknight::Suicune::Spectrier::Kyurem-Black:
This is a team I built to test Spectrier as a win-condition. The fragile Spectrier is not something you typically want to bring out mid-game (though it can sometimes revenge dangerous threats), but when it's down to the last few Pokemon it can absolutely rip through the remaining enemies on the field and neigh its way to victory. Scarves are uncommon in FFA (and usually used more for Trick fodder than as a revenge-killers) so very little outspeeds Spectrier. Taunt/Nasty Plot turns defensive walls like Chansey into setup bait. Kyurem serves as an alternative breaker and the two tend to complement each other well. The core here is Slowking-G, Corviknight, and Suicune, this one featuring Toxic rather than Calm Mind since its job is to wear down enemies rather than setting up as a win condition. Heatran is once again featured here as a trapper to remove key threats.
 

dhelmise

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Free-For-All is fun but what ruins it for me is that it is incredibly easy to cheat. You can easily just log in using 3 different accounts and then beat some poor dude who thinks that he is up against 3 different people but in reality is fighting the same guy using 3 different accounts. This is pretty consistent, especially because when it goes wrong you often still get 2 accounts in the same battle thus still making it easy to win.

I think that unless an effective measure against this kind of cheating is implemented a ranked ladder would be a bad idea. The top of such a ladder would probably just a bunch of cheaters all using multiple accounts.

Two of my few favourite strategies based on this concept are Round and Beat Up. Beat Up has the added advantage that you attack your own Pokemon thus making it less obvious that you are teaming up. When used with trustworthy sounding names like I did in the replays this strategy can be very hard to spot.
Hey, this would actually be against PS's global rules if the ladder were rated. Please report when this happens.
 
Stall is incredibly powerful for a bunch of reasons. Protection moves have zero downside, while your opponents wear each other out. Leech Seed can target three Pokemon. Attacks are rarely coordinated, and will get distracted by specific threats. Spread moves are very bad in general—the nerf to 50% was a mistake IMO. Hazards stack will contributions from every team, discouraging switches and aggressive typings, and in consequence making status chip damage even more powerful. Gaps in attacks and lower average aggression makes it easy to set up defence boosts. Defence is worth a lot more than offence in general, and chip damage is worth a lot more than singular attacks.

I'd recommend making hazards target a single opponent; they would probably still be quite strong, but the field wouldn't always be left with Stealth Rocks + 2x Toxic Spikes + 3x Spikes, and people would be able to switch more, at least into Pokemon that aren't Steel-Grass or Steel-Flying! Better hazard visualizations would also help.

Some banned DUbers probably aren't nearly as strong in this mode. Marshadow would help punish setup stall, but has no real bulk that would make it last, though Drain Punch could be a problem. Zacian and Zamazenta have no recovery beyond Rest and are vulnerable to status and stall tactics. Urshifu's ability would come in handy, especially against the swathes of Steel stall, but it would add welcome aggression to the tier; again the risk is in Drain Punch. Zygarde-C would struggle against Leech Seed.

There does seem to be some egregious teaming going on—as in, teaming that goes beyond the scope of sensible play within any single game, presumably planned ahead of time. I noticed that once after suffering against a pair of colluding players, when I met one in a new match without his team member, he quit after one turn. TBH I don't mind it if people want to play with their friends and such, but it needs to be handled in a better way than that.
 

stuart littled.

Banned deucer.
thisis Most Interestive but I am finding difficuilt to succeed often. My streagy is use MultiTargetMoves like surf and EarthQuake but am encounter many immunity. This ""Stall"" tactic sound to my taste. DOes anyone know an introduction team for the method. thankyou.
 
Protection moves have zero downside
While I do agree that Stall is very strong and Protection moves are quite strong, they are not zero downside. Protection moves can be very good, but they eat into your move selection and that can leave you without the tools you need to win long-term. There are certainly many Pokemon that need to run Protect moves (Ferrothorn and Heatran for example) but for others like Toxapex you're really giving up something important to run Protect and that opportunity cost can be huge if it means you no longer have the right tools for the situation. I saw the replay that Nojaa posted in the Discord, and if his Toxapex had Recover instead of Baneful Bunker he would have been able to just wait for the Ferrothorn to run itself out of PP and to struggle itself to death. Similarly that Kartana could have actually clean swept if it had Leaf Blade instead of Protect. Using Protect in that situation was just a massive misplay; sweepers want to close out the game, not drag it out. If he'd had Leaf Blade instead of Protect and attacked into Chansey instead of Protecting on that turn, I think he'd actually have won from that position.

Leech Seed can target three Pokemon.
Ferrothorn and Celesteela are very good Pokemon and are on my list of things I think are very good. However, they both face a similar problem: opponents can just switch out, and Leech Seed has only 16 PP so it is easily stalled. With Protect being mandatory on Leech Seed sets, that leaves Ferrothorn with only two moves for other purposes which makes it exceedingly passive. I thought the Block Ferrothorn from that replay was a very cute piece of tech, but unfortunately it had only 56 PP total and everything it wants to trap has more than that. If they have reliable recovery and Toxic immunity (which describes a pretty large portion of the meta...), Ferrothorn is just going to PP stall itself.

I'd recommend making hazards target a single opponent
The mechanics of Free-For-All are based on those of the Battle Royale format from generation 7, and this is how hazards worked in that format. There is no appetite for changing established mechanics. Moreover, we do have a number of viable defoggers and that helps alleviate the hazard situation.

Better hazard visualizations would also help.
Full agreement; it is very difficult to tell who has what hazards on their side of the field and necessitates you manually track it.

Some banned DUbers probably aren't nearly as strong in this mode. Marshadow would help punish setup stall, but has no real bulk that would make it last, though Drain Punch could be a problem. Zacian and Zamazenta have no recovery beyond Rest and are vulnerable to status and stall tactics. Urshifu's ability would come in handy, especially against the swathes of Steel stall, but it would add welcome aggression to the tier; again the risk is in Drain Punch. Zygarde-C would struggle against Leech Seed.
I'd agree that Urshifu-SS should be unbanned. If we're going to default to the "start of generation" default of doubles OU then Urshifu-SS should be allowed. I don't think it would be too problematic in this format; its special bulk is abysmal so it can't really do a Bulk Up set particularly well and Close Combat's defense drop makes it really easy to KO.

Other ubers, I'd mostly disagree with. Zacian would be monstrous; while it doesn't have recovery of its own, it's really easy to just throw a wishport Clefable and a Heal Bell user on your team and suddenly Zacian has all the recovery it needs. Zygarde is already really good as it stands, and Zygarde-C would be a complete terror. Keep in mind that Zygarde can viably run Substitute, and if Power Construct is allowed then Substitute Zygarde gets even better. Marshadow could very easily get out of hand with Spectral Thief and stealing buffs, and since its special bulk is much better than Urshifu's it could run a Bulk Up Drain Punch set just fine. I've been running Bulk Up Drain Punch Zeraora and it's surprisingly good as a late-game cleaner in that it works well against a wide variety of different team compositions. Marshadow would be even better, and could potentially be a great asset to stall in that it could steal boosts from Pokemon trying to set up on them.

thisis Most Interestive but I am finding difficuilt to succeed often. My streagy is use MultiTargetMoves like surf and EarthQuake but am encounter many immunity. This ""Stall"" tactic sound to my taste. DOes anyone know an introduction team for the method. thankyou.
Here's a stall team I have; keep in mind that I do think this team is very vulnerable to anti-stall tech like trapping moves and choice trick, but it should fare well against anyone just bringing a naive offensive team:
:Toxapex::Clefable::Chansey::Hippowdon::Zapdos::Corviknight:
 
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The mechanics of Free-For-All are based on those of the Battle Royale format from generation 7, and this is how hazards worked in that format.
I didn't realize this is an in-game format, fair enough.

To much of the rest, mostly I think you're overestimating how optimized these stall teams are. Kartana did as much damage as it did because it avoided a Will-O-Wisp and even at 2x the players spent a bunch of time ignoring it because it just wasn't considered that threatening until it had a type advantage against every Pokemon on the field. I agree Protect's low PP is a problem, but it's one of those things where by the time you've gotten to the point where you're optimizing for PP, the game is already a painful stall-fest.

Anti-stall tech can help tackle standard stall pokemon, but if your anti-stall is just another, bigger-brain level of stall, it doesn't really solve the problem.
 
Agree with most of Darvin's post there, but I think the threat of Ferrothorn and Celesteela (and their Leech Seeds) is being understated a lot. Most players will know better than to spam Leech Seed indiscriminately, and by using it wisely will be able to make it last for most if not all of the game. And that's the biggest danger those sets pose, that they can just sit in comfortably turn after turn and barely face any real danger.

These mons being overly passive doesn't hurt them because their main goal is to survive and outlast the other players, and there isn't much stopping them from making that happen. Many of the Pokemon that could normally be used to answer them, like Magnezone, are niche mons in the FFA format without much general effectiveness. Even if a legitimate threat like Heatran comes in, the Ferrothorn or Celesteela can simply protect (as running Feint is not really worth the move slot), gaining any leftover leech seed healing, and then switch out while the Heatran is worn down and possibly KO'd. The two big Leech Seeders can come out on top in almost every situation, and pairing them with another good defensive mon like Toxapex or my personal favorite sluggy boi Gastrodon removes that almost and lets the player 'Luigi does nothing' their way through the entire game with ease.

The format's favoring defensive playstyles, punishing many offensive mons for existing, and difficulty of coordinating attacks helps out a lot of mons, but I don't think any of them benefit to the ridiculous extreme that Ferrothorn and Celesteela do. This almost entirely stems from their access to Leech Seed and the ease of using it, so I feel it would be worthwhile to consider banning the move outright.

Thanks for coming to my ted talk. Have a good one.
 
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To much of the rest, mostly I think you're overestimating how optimized these stall teams are. Kartana did as much damage as it did because it avoided a Will-O-Wisp and even at 2x the players spent a bunch of time ignoring it because it just wasn't considered that threatening until it had a type advantage against every Pokemon on the field.
And Boss's team was extremely unoptimized; frankly given his hyper-offensive composition he had no business even being alive at turn 80. I'm certainly not holding that up as an example of how you might beat stall, only to point out that in that end-game position where most teams were in shambles and even the strongest player only had three Pokemon remaining, a strong sweeper can absolutely clean up.

In my view, offense is not a consistent playstyle and can only win if most of the other players are also playing offense. Boss's offense team reaching the end-game against three stall teams and being a few will-o-wisp dodges away from sweeping was an anomaly. However, you can absolutely throw an offensive win condition into the back of a stall team to clean up late-game, and balance teams practically thrive on situations like this as they have the longevity to stay in the game and then bring out scary cleaners to close the game. I've been using wishport Clefable recently and against more passive teams it just passes wishes for free, which means those offensive threats that are supposed to get worn down don't.

I agree Protect's low PP is a problem, but it's one of those things where by the time you've gotten to the point where you're optimizing for PP, the game is already a painful stall-fest.
Certainly for stall teams your solution to Ferro is to stall it out, and in a game with 3 stalls in the other corners that was the only way it was getting removed. Offensive teams should probably be packing a proper answer to scare it out. Heatran is a great choice, but there are plenty of Pokemon that can carry fire coverage. Slowking-Galar is a great example, as it can take advantage of the obligatory Protect as Ferro scouts for the Flamethrower to set up a Future Sight, then go for the Flamethrower.

Anti-stall tech can help tackle standard stall pokemon, but if your anti-stall is just another, bigger-brain level of stall, it doesn't really solve the problem.
Perish Trap, Trick Scarf, setup Pokemon that beat Haze/Unaware users, or just really strong wallbreakers.

I do think that well-balanced teams do bring a strong defensive core with a lot of longevity; this is an inherently defensive format and the early-game is about guarding your own position more than it is making a move. Oftentimes that means Wish and Heal Bell support to keep those breakers healthy. However, balanced teams bring a lot of firepower in the back to complement their defensive core and can absolutely bring down the offensive pressure when the time is ripe for it.

Even if a legitimate threat like Heatran comes in, the Ferrothorn or Celesteela can simply protect (as running Feint is not really worth the move slot), gaining any leftover leech seed healing, and then switch out while the Heatran is worn down and possibly KO'd.
Heatran is very difficult to switch into. The other corners do present a threat to Heatran, so you can't get tunnel vision and throw it around recklessly, but that runs both ways and if they attack into the same slot as Heatran... whatever is switching in is likely going to down. Heatran can be tailored to beat specific threats; for instance the pink blobs are destroyed by Taunt since they take upwards of 50% by switching into Magma Storm with hazards up, and if they can't recover off that damage then they're more or less hoping the other slots put pressure on Heatran so they can switch around and get a softboiled or wish off eventually.

The format's favoring defensive playstyles, punishing many offensive mons for existing, and difficulty of coordinating attacks helps out a lot of mons, but I don't think any of them benefit to the ridiculous extreme that Ferrothorn and Celesteela do. This almost entirely stems from their access to Leech Seed and the ease of using it, so I feel it would be worthwhile to consider banning the move outright.
If there were to be a ban, it would be of Ferrothorn and/or Celesteela not of Leech Seed (and, in any case, those two Pokemon would be unviable without Leech Seed). Other Leech Seeders really aren't a problem in the way these two are, and while the move is really freaking good in the FFA format I don't feel it rises to banworthy territory when most users are of fringe viability at best and it's just a pair of really good exemplars that push it to extreme levels.
 
Heatran is very difficult to switch into. The other corners do present a threat to Heatran, so you can't get tunnel vision and throw it around recklessly, but that runs both ways and if they attack into the same slot as Heatran... whatever is switching in is likely going to down. Heatran can be tailored to beat specific threats; for instance the pink blobs are destroyed by Taunt since they take upwards of 50% by switching into Magma Storm with hazards up, and if they can't recover off that damage then they're more or less hoping the other slots put pressure on Heatran so they can switch around and get a softboiled or wish off eventually.
Bulky water types are common partners to a Ferrothorn or Celesteela, and have little to fear from Heatran while giving their player a generally good position against the rest of the field. Tailoring mons to beat individual threats is less effective here than building them to have all-around longevity, and focusing too much of your attention on one player tends to get you killed off quickly. The FFA format makes it much harder to put up the pressure required to stop well-built defensive cores from doing whatever they feel like, and these two mons take the most advantage of that by having very few losing situations, as well as being simple to build around with something that covers their weaknesses. Urshifu is on paper a Pokemon that could eat most defensive cores for lunch, but even that suffers early- and mid-game from being a pure attacker - and Toxapex stops the kung fu panda in its tracks anyway.

If there were to be a ban, it would be of Ferrothorn and/or Celesteela not of Leech Seed (and, in any case, those two Pokemon would be unviable without Leech Seed). Other Leech Seeders really aren't a problem in the way these two are, and while the move is really freaking good in the FFA format I don't feel it rises to banworthy territory when most users are of fringe viability at best and it's just a pair of really good exemplars that push it to extreme levels.
I'd argue that we don't know about any other possible Leech Seed abusers because the market is so dominated by Celesteela and Ferrothorn that there's just no reason to use anything else. But that would only be theoretical until we saw how the meta developed with them gone so I'm willing to agree with that for now.
 
When it comes to FFA I'm more the kind to slap a team together that I like, but as much as I hate to admit it Celesteela IS very hard to kill and I know this because I use it on one of my teams. Just having Leech Seed + Protect, without even tailoring your team to support Celesteela, is honestly enough to keep Celesteela in the game for a really long time. Really all you need is an electric / fire resist or two and your Celesteela is nearly on it's way to being unkillable.

Generally the issue I find is if you make your Celesteela very bulky you're only doing chip damage for most of the game and you can eventually get forced out, but my teams are mostly just mons that I like, it's probably a lot easier to keep Celesteela alive when you actually build to somewhat support it.

This is just my quick thoughts, and I would like to add that the only reason I don't want to see mons like Celesteela / Ferrothorn banned is because while they might be annoying to kill, removing mons from the FFA metagame just isn't something I personally want to see unless it becomes an issue that isn't possible to deal with anymore.

Take this all with a grain of salt, as I am a casual player.
 
Urshifu is on paper a Pokemon that could eat most defensive cores for lunch, but even that suffers early- and mid-game from being a pure attacker - and Toxapex stops the kung fu panda in its tracks anyway.
I'd agree that Urshifu is pretty bad. It's one of many offensive threats that looks nice on paper, and has the offensive power to get KO's, but it's too inconsistent in practice. It relies on Choice Band for sufficient power to do its job, its special defense is horrible so it's outclassed as a Bulk Up user, Drain Punch has too low BP and Close Combat's defense drop is a massive liability which leaves you without a good Fighting-STAB, and it's outsped by pretty much every cleaner so it doesn't even clean up well in an end-game situation. Being completely walled by Toxapex is just a deal-breaker on something that is already super-niche to begin with.

I'd argue that we don't know about any other possible Leech Seed abusers because the market is so dominated by Celesteela and Ferrothorn that there's just no reason to use anything else. But that would only be theoretical until we saw how the meta developed with them gone so I'm willing to agree with that for now.
Probably Venusaur is the only one that would be relevant, as it's immune to Toxic. Maybe Roserade, but honestly its niche is as a Toxic Spikes setter and Aromatherapy support and I can't see using it as a Leech Seed user over Venusaur. One stray toxic pretty much ruins a Leech Seed staller, and part of what makes Ferrothorn and Celesteela so good is their immunity to that condition (Toxic immunity in general being really, really good in FFA)
 
Hey, not sure if this is the best place to ask this for this request to be noticed, but is there any chance we could have the randomized Free-For-All format be rated (or add a rated version)? People just abuse the lack of rating system by timer stalling until everybody gets annoyed and forfeits. Often times, two people end up not forfeiting, but then at that point, it's just a randomized single battle (If I wanted to do a randomized single battle, I'd choose random singles).

Anyways, it just makes the format really unpleasant and renders half the battles anticlimactic and boring due to pesky timer stallers ruining it all the time. A rated version would punish people for forfeiting, so it occurs less often.

If anybody knows of a better place I can post this request to, please link it to me. Thanks!
 
i literally made an account to share a few sets that might be relevant to FFA, mainly in an attempt to get more people to play it. i think the issue of griefing with multiple accounts can be settled with more people flooding into the game mode, or just keeping an eye out for alts and getting someone to team up with you to defeat the no-fun menace. that being said, since there's a lot i'm gonna put it all in spoilers:

Trick Room Water Spout Octillery
Octillery @ Choice Specs
Ability: Suction Cups
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Water Spout
- Surf / Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Energy Ball

This is perhaps Octillery's only use and requires a lot of set up (rain support, TR support, getting it in safely, AND removing hazards in FFA... if two people gang up on your whole team you may be screwed), but when it pays off, it honestly pays off pretty good. Anything that doesn't resist it and is built for offense just gets obliterated, and thanks to its slow base speed, not much is going to get the jump on you. If it doesn't get obliterated, then it gets hit really hard. You can swap out the two last moves for a few things depending on if you need to hit something specific for a decent amount of damage like Flamethrower/Fire Blast or Flash Cannon/Sludge Bomb (sludge wave, personally, isn't preferred due to low damage output... you have Water Spout for that!)
Suction Cups helps it not be phazed out by certain moves, but any ability works depending on how you're feeling. Lucky? Sniper. Also lucky? Moody. But this is the most reliable ability.

Trick Room Slow Pivot Suicide Whimsicott
Whimsicott @ Focus Sash/Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Trick Room
- U-turn
- Fake Tears
- Moonblast

More or less very specific support for mons in Trick Room that need to get in safely, be it through sacrificing itself to getting hit or, by some miracle, U-Turning out once TR gets set up. Focus Sash is great for if you're leading or have ways to get rid of hazards, while Heavy-Duty Boots is actually a bit more of a risk since you don't have anything to fall back on, but has its uses. Last two moves are filler and can be swapped out for your needs.

SubSeed Celesteela
Celesteela @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 28 Def / 232 SpD
Careful Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Protect

Is it your standard Celes? Yes, it is, but it can be the surprising bane of everyone if they happen to not have the proper tools for it with its amazing longevity. Picking off a mon at how health with Heavy Slam also raises your special defense. What else needs to be said about this monster? You could opt for a Calm nature and Flamethrower if you really, really hate Ferrothorn like in another standard set.


"I Hate Celesteela" Chandelure
Chandelure @ Choice Specs
Ability: Infiltrator
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Heat Wave
- Shadow Ball
- Trick
You hate Celesteela with every bit of your heart and soul. Whenever you see that fat monstrosity come into the battlefield, you know it's just going to sit there and Leech Seed everything in sight while you don't have the proper check for it out and your two other opponents are too blind to see the danger that's fast approaching. They do not see what you see, the next 100 turns being filled with the literal fattest Pokemon in the Pokedex managing to stall all of you combined, its owner probably having already gone for a piss break and is just having an auto-clicker on Protect. You have given up the ability to switch in on any fire move just for this.
Hate.
Hate.
Hatred.
It's time for revenge.
You cannot help but grin with sheer malice, teeth bared ear-to-ear as you bring this Chandelure in on a Celesteela that already has its sub up. It prepares to Leech Seed you. Your hand shakes with excitement as you press 'Fire Blast', ready to break past the sub and char that thing into oblivion.
Fire Blast missed!
Bisharp used Knock Off!
Chandelure fainted!
>Trainer: whoops i thought you were attacking me lmao sorry


Gravity Ferrothorn
Ferrothorn @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Stealth Rock
- Leech Seed
- Gyro Ball
- Gravity
Less of a real set and more of a call to attention for Gravity. Gravity is super interesting in FFA since it affects everyone, makes moves have more accuracy, and completely grounds everyone. It also disables a few moves here and there such as High Jump Kick. In the case of Ferrothorn for example, you can now have a 100% accurate Leech Seed, or likewise for Toxic on non-poison Pokemon, Will-O-Wisp, Stone Edge, all those moves just short of having 100% accuracy now pretty much have it, likewise Spikes and Toxic Spikes can now affect nearly anything that lacks Heavy-Duty Boots... and also, Earthquake.
Find out what has Gravity, maybe it can inspire your next team.

Eruption Heatran
Heatran (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Heat Wave
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
Much like the Octillery set, this requires a lot of support (sun, removing SR/spikes/Sticky Web, ensuring a safe switch-in), but, now you probably also need Sticky Web and paralysis support too, to run this specific version. But, again, this probably has an even bigger payoff than Octillery if you can get him in just right.
You could potentially run a Trick Room version, but since Heatran is at a mid-tier for speed, don't expect to outrun everything.
 
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i literally made an account to share a few sets that might be relevant to FFA, mainly in an attempt to get more people to play it.
Welcome! This fledgling format definitely needs all the attention it can get.

Trick Room Water Spout Octillery
The problem with Water Spout is that spread moves have their power is halved against individual targets in Free-For-All, so it's really only hitting like a 75 BP move. This is very survivable, so for all this work setting up this combo you're probably only getting 3HKO's out of it, and all it takes is one player to attack while the other two Protect and your whole combo fizzles. This is a huge amount of setup for something very unreliable. Not only that, but Gastrodon's popularity is really picking up due to presence of Dracovish, so a lot of more defensive teams actually have outright Water immunity available to them. Eruption Heatran can be a pretty scary cleaner if you keep it in the back untouched for the end-game, but if you're forced to bring it out early (even with Sun support) the power of Eruption is weakened too much by being a spread move and it only takes one Pokemon on the field with the guts to attack into your slot and the whole combo is ruined.

Don't get me wrong, you definitely can cause havoc with sets like these, but they are inherently unreliable and situational. Certainly not comparable to a defensive mainstay like SubSeed Celesteela which typically requires specialized tools if you want to consistently remove it and if you don't have the right tools for the job it's often down to just PP stalling the sucker out. And unless you're bringing a dedicated Spite PP staller, that still means Celesteela was on the field uncontested for around 40 turns, which is mission accomplished)
 

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