Metagame Fortemons

[Buttermink]

+1 (and up) Priority: This one is a little more controversial, but I highly believe that the metagame shouldn't be centered just around Tapu Lele and running priority. All teams are required to have something immune to immunity to not just be swept by it, and Pinsir even has Mold Breaker allowing only Tapu Lele to really check it. So, these were banned too.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7fortemons-832448267
Methinks the changes might not be implemented yet.

 

[damidoulight]

I understand your answer and I accept that thanks guys

 

[Inscipio]

I found a problem with Ferrothorn.
I’m currently using this set:
Ferrothorn @ payback
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Poison Jab
- Explosion
For some reason Gyro Ball won’t do any damage. I encountered this first against a mew in a real battle, and then tested it vs my alt account. Does anyone know why this is happening? Here’s a replay for reference:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7fortemons-832539407

 

[Nevermor3]

"For meta predictions and Badger's VR, we can likely expect a rise in faster attackers and speed boosting fortes, speed control like webs and trick room are going to be far more popular. Yeah major VR shift incoming"
Or instead, from what I'v seen, apparently the meta becomes use nothing but u-turn and volt switch mons. Is it possible that u-turn and volt-switch could be looked into in the future? It's a whole lot of nonsense.
Edit: I keep messing up the quote thing so I just edited it out... I don't use the forums much.

I think an item clause would be effective, or maybe limit the amount of switching forte's? You can only have a u-turn or volt switch mon on a team. But that may be considered a complex ban

 

[Badger]

I do like that though- 1 U-Turn mon seems fair

 

[drampa's grandpa]

A complex "one pivot forte user" clause seems like the wrong way to go. If something is broken it should be banned. But the metagame should also be given some time to settle after the banning of the two most meta-defining fortes.

I found a problem with Ferrothorn.
I’m currently using this set:
Ferrothorn @ payback
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Power Whip
- Poison Jab
- Explosion
For some reason Gyro Ball won’t do any damage. I encountered this first against a mew in a real battle, and then tested it vs my alt account. Does anyone know why this is happening? Here’s a replay for reference:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7fortemons-832539407

This is a known bug that's been happening for awhile. I believe it is being worked on. Thanks for bringing it up though.

 

[Snaquaza]

The rule that type-changing moves wouldn't do anything as a Forte has been removed for consistency. You can now abuse Hidden Power (and Weather Ball, Revelation Dance, etc.)

 

[Shoopz_Whisper]

The rule that type-changing moves wouldn't do anything as a Forte has been removed for consistency. You can now abuse Hidden Power (and Weather Ball, Revelation Dance, etc.)

So what would the effects be exactly?
Hidden Power: Normal moves change type based on IVs
Weather Ball: Normal moves change type based on weather and double in BP
Natural Gift: Does not work, requires Berry.
Revelation Dance: Normal moves change type based on primary typing
Judgment/Multi-Attack: Does not work, requires plate/memory respectively.

Is this right?

A complex "one pivot forte user" clause seems like the wrong way to go. If something is broken it should be banned. But the metagame should also be given some time to settle after the banning of the two most meta-defining fortes.

Can we just get a Forte clause already? Only one type of a Forte per team (Only one U-Turn, Flame Charge, Shadow Ball, etc.).

 

[Brodaha]

Hidden Power: Normal moves change type based on IVs
Weather Ball: Normal moves change type based on weather and double in BP
Revelation Dance: Normal moves change type based on primary typing

I believe that all moves would change typing/double in BP, not just normal type moves.

 

[Snaquaza]

So what would the effects be exactly?
Hidden Power: Normal moves change type based on IVs
Weather Ball: Normal moves change type based on weather and double in BP
Natural Gift: Does not work, requires Berry.
Revelation Dance: Normal moves change type based on primary typing
Judgment/Multi-Attack: Does not work, requires plate/memory respectively.

Is this right?



Can we just get a Forte clause already? Only one type of a Forte per team (Only one U-Turn, Flame Charge, Shadow Ball, etc.).

https://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Category:Moves_that_change_type
There's Techno Blast too, but it requires an item as well.

Weather ball does indeed double base power and change type. I could see Blizzard Vanilluxe being usable. ... and that's probably all for this change.

 

[AquaticPanic]

Ok so here's a mon I'd like to bring up. Might not be the best out there but it's very interesting

Necrozma @ Photon Geyser


With Photon Geyser alone, Necrozma is insanely versatile. To start things off, it gets Mold Breaker basically, since Photon ignores abilities. But the most interesting part is that every move will run off of Necrozma's highest offensive stat. This allows Necrozma to run entirely new sets with much expanded coverage - Special sets get shiny toys like Earthquake or Stone Edge, and physical sets (Friendly reminder: Swords Dance) can get things like Physical Psychic, Heat Wave, Dark Pulse and Psyshock.

What's also great is that while Special Attack is higher than Attack, the opponent will never really know what EVs you are running because the moves' category no longer matters, meaning finding switch ins for Necrozma becomes mindgames.



Could be good, hadn't a clown dominated the meta it's speed been so low

 

[TheBlueFiretruck]

So I got all excited about a new Venoshock-based team I made, but quickly found out that it doesn't work. In this replay my Gliscor's forte is Venoshock. It hits Mew with EQ for 24%, poisons it with Toxic, and then hits it again for 26%, which is clearly just a roll. I believe this falls under the "variable base power" category in mathfreak231's mechanic post, but at the very least Venoshock should have set the BP to 130 right? Is it supposed to be behaving this way?

That replay is also a good example of why U-turn/VS spam is unhealthy for the meta, although I'm not sure what the best course of action is yet

 

[Lectrys]

I suspect a Forte clause will get rather untenable. You can stack Fortes with the same effect but unequal chances (e.g. Nuzzle and Discharge, Steam Eruption and Scald, Seed Flare and Psychic) and Fortes whose effects overlap (e.g. Flare Blitz and Fire Punch, Ice Fang and Iron Head). How are we supposed to handle those: ban them or free them?

 

[Mathy]

So I got all excited about a new Venoshock-based team I made, but quickly found out that it doesn't work. In this replay my Gliscor's forte is Venoshock. It hits Mew with EQ for 24%, poisons it with Toxic, and then hits it again for 26%, which is clearly just a roll. I believe this falls under the "variable base power" category in mathfreak231's mechanic post, but at the very least Venoshock should have set the BP to 130 right? Is it supposed to be behaving this way?

I've discussed this a bit with Snaq and we will hopefully be fixing base power so it's more intuitive. From a programming standpoint, this is for the most part easy but there are a few edge cases that are still being worked out.

This change will hopefully be rolled out alongside the type-changing effects that Snaq mentioned.

Also, I'm probably going to make another list that, instead of listing types of mechanics, just lists every move of interest.

 

[rsbound]

water/eruption are quite useless as items
flame charge has a base power of 50 when i used it at full health
but the base power was lowered when i got hit
i figured my base power would be 150 at full health but it doesn't work seem to work that way

 

[Lord Death Man]

Can we just get a Forte clause already? Only one type of a Forte per team (Only one U-Turn, Flame Charge, Shadow Ball, etc.).

I don't think a forte clause really resolves the problem, because pivot teams only really need 1 u-turn, 1 volt switch, and mew to be suffocating.
I don't think limiting teams to a single pivot really resolved the interaction between a pivot and shuffle Mew sets - unless we extend the one pivot rule to pokemon actually running u-turn/volt switch/parting shot (nothing does but consistency), at which point I think we should just ban it - but it would make them mildly less oppressive.

 

[Jaggo93]

Am I wrong, or shouldnt my Uproar in Turn 12 an ice type Move?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7fortemons-832862560

Vaniluxe does have weatherball as item

 

[Shoopz_Whisper]

water/eruption are quite useless as items
flame charge has a base power of 50 when i used it at full health
but the base power was lowered when i got hit
i figured my base power would be 150 at full health but it doesn't work seem to work that way

It wouldn't be due to the base power of Water Spout and Eruption already being at 150 BP. So every other move would work the same at different BPs. It's pretty much giving your 'mon Defeatist.

 

[Badger]

I still need help with the viability rankings! If you think a Pokèmon should be added, please just reply to the (updated) VR rankings (Page 12 of the Fortemons OM) and tell me! You can also request Pokèmon to be raised or lowered in the viability.

 

[God of Llamas]

I’m not the best player by any means, but I’ll share my thoughts.

Zeraora -> A+

If anything, the removal of priority has helped Zeraora. It’s still a fantastic pivot thanks to its ridiculous speed and coverage.

Switch Greninja-Ash and Greninja

Greninja-Ash is in a better place than Greninja at the moment. While Protean does help with coverage moves such as Gunk Shot and Ice Beam, Greninja-Ash’s overall increased power makes it easier to rack up kills. Even before a transformation, Greninja-Ash still has enough power to get KOs with its coverage with only a little chip damage (Gunk Shot dealing 65-80% to Tapu Lele, for example) It also has the added benefit of outspeeding Tapu Koko and Weavile after transformation.

 

[Buttermink]

Is there any particular reason freeze dry doesn't work as a Forte? Did you guys want to encourage more people to use Toxapex or something?

 

[Pipotchi]

I still need help with the viability rankings! If you think a Pokèmon should be added, please just reply to the (updated) VR rankings (Page 12 of the Fortemons OM) and tell me! You can also request Pokèmon to be raised or lowered in the viability.

i think if i were u i would wait for an official VR that will be probably added to the OP or 2nd post, which will probably start after snaquaza finishes banning broken things

 

[Badger]

I have some ideas of what to ban and unban:

Blacephalon: Flame Charge makes basically only one Pokèmon insane in this metagame- Blacephalon. While making the viability rankings, I've gotten so many complaints that under Psychic Terrain, Blacephalon is one of the hardest to defeat. At +1 special attack, it can kill almost every single Pokemon minus Tyranitar in a single hit. I think that this should be looked into thoroughly

U-Turn and Volt Switch- I know a lot of people use this for a free KO on slower Pokemon. I still think it should be allowed, but just a limit of 1 volt switch/U-Turn forte would help this meta out a lot. Right now, almost all of the top Pokemon are good mainly because of these moves. U-Turn itself isn't broken, it's just the fact that you can have more than one on a single team.

 

[Badger]

i think if i were u i would wait for an official VR that will be probably added to the OP or 2nd post, which will probably start after snaquaza finishes banning broken things

Well that's the thing. By the time this is over, the OMOTM will be different. I just really like the meta and feel the need to contribute, and as time goes on I'll get better at ranking things anyway

 

[Ivy]

Am I wrong, or shouldnt my Uproar in Turn 12 an ice type Move?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7fortemons-832862560
Vaniluxe does have weatherball as item

This is coming in the next patch. (Blizzard is also probably a better choice for vanilluxe; it will still get the doubled power and be ice type in Hail)

Is there any particular reason freeze dry doesn't work as a Forte? Did you guys want to encourage more people to use Toxapex or something?

This should also be fixed soon, but I'm not 100% sure.