Implemented ending the alting rule debate

[QWILY]

whether you agree with it or not, the ongoing never-ending discussion about the new alting rule is stupid. instead i'm suggesting we use our great coders, technology and resources, to create something everyone is happy with.

(ideally this appears when you hover over the name)

i'm not a coder but a command like /aka shouldn't be too hard to implement? this might have a few flaws still but other than technical difficulities i see no reason against it. can be a smogtours exclusive command but i could also see it being useful during OLT or other PS related things.

 

[Annika]

Showdown's alt detection technology doesn't establish a 1:1 correspondence between accounts. Detected alts are not guaranteed to be the same user; the alt-detection system provides human moderators with information which they can use to make an informed decision on whether the users are the same. It would be misleading to declare that two users are *definitely* alts; the system is continually being refined to account for situations like shared IP addresses. Additionally, one user can easily use more than two accounts at once, cluttering up the "aka" hoverbox (users on Main have already done similar things to flood the screens of moderators using alt-checking tools).

This is also a privacy issue: users should be able to preserve their anonymity without having their alt accounts (or users at the same school/university/workplace/library) publicized. These privacy concerns are one of many reasons why alt-checking tools are restricted to users with a clear need for this information—Showdown's staff.

What is the discussion with the "new alting rule"? Maybe I can think of some other, more feasible technical solution. I'm happy to solve problems with code, but publicly displaying a user's alts seems neither feasible nor desirable.

 

[avarice]

Showdown's alt detection technology doesn't establish a 1:1 correspondence between accounts. Detected alts are not guaranteed to be the same user; the alt-detection system provides human moderators with information which they can use to make an informed decision on whether the users are the same. It would be misleading to declare that two users are *definitely* alts; the system is continually being refined to account for situations like shared IP addresses. Additionally, one user can easily use more than two accounts at once, cluttering up the "aka" hoverbox (users on Main have already done similar things to flood the screens of moderators using alt-checking tools).

This is also a privacy issue: users should be able to preserve their anonymity without having their alt accounts (or users at the same school/university/workplace/library) publicized. These privacy concerns are one of many reasons why alt-checking tools are restricted to users with a clear need for this information—Showdown's staff.

What is the discussion with the "new alting rule"? Maybe I can think of some other, more feasible technical solution. I'm happy to solve problems with code, but publicly displaying a user's alts seems neither feasible nor desirable.

the idea is in response to the decision here where one is forced to use only their main account/alt with a similar name. games like this kinda suck for spectators (especially when they aren't using the team avatars). i believe the OP meant more similar to the status feature on PS than alt checking though. this opens the possibility to people setting their /aka to someone else's username, and ultimately can have people baited if they don't force the opponent to use their main/voiced smogtours account. this isn't different to what the situation was prior to the ruling. it would really just be a middle ground between then and now, since you could use goofy alts while keeping those watching in the loop, and more convenient than having to scroll to find the unvoiced alts to see a normal status.

 

[Annika]

If people want to use goofy alts, why not require them to set a /status directly with their Smogon username in it, instead of creating a second status-like command? You can just punish people who set a different username in their status if baiting is an issue.

 

[Aqua Jet]

If people want to use goofy alts, why not require them to set a /status directly with their Smogon username in it, instead of creating a second status-like command? You can just punish people who set a different username in their status if baiting is an issue.

The issue with this is Smogtours, where most of the large tournament games are played. When you join a game on that server, you cannot see people who had joined the game before you, even if they are players. For example, here is a screenshot from the server:

Assuming one of the players isn't in any rooms, it would be difficult to find a page where you can find their status.

Would it be feasible to implement something like QWILY suggested, but allow players to set what it would say? For example, I would type "/aka test" and it would appear like QWILY's image above? Another solution would be to fix Smogon Tournaments so you can see all of the people that are in a battle, but I'm sure there's a reason that you can't do that that I'm unaware of.

 

[IBM]

The issue with this is Smogtours, where most of the large tournament games are played. When you join a game on that server, you cannot see people who had joined the game before you, even if they are players. For example, here is a screenshot from the server:

Assuming one of the players isn't in any rooms, it would be difficult to find a page where you can find their status.

This is not really an issue, /user (name) shows their status.

 

[Dorron]

What if you could hover over someone's name and see their status the same way the ELO pops up in ladder? Of course this would be applied only for non-ladder games (aka challenges), which is basically any tournament game besides ladder tournaments but that's not the issue here.

 

[Annika]

What if you could hover over someone's name and see their status the same way the ELO pops up in ladder? Of course this would be applied only for non-ladder games (aka challenges), which is basically any tournament game besides ladder tournaments but that's not the issue here.

I would be fine with this.

Is there a reason Smogtours doesn't show users who joined before you in the userlist? That behavior seems odd.

 

[Aurella]

I would be fine with this.

Is there a reason Smogtours doesn't show users who joined before you in the userlist? That behavior seems odd.

There's no reason, it's just been a bug for years.

 

[Quite Quiet]

I would be fine with this.

Is there a reason Smogtours doesn't show users who joined before you in the userlist? That behavior seems odd.

There's no reason, it's just been a bug for years.

If I remember things correctly rooms track users by join messages, but at some point in the past join messages were set up to not be sent for battles on Smogtours because they filled up the replays with join/leave messages nobody wanted to see. You can see very old replays from Smogtours with join messages still in them.

Also for whoever suggest things, I'd prefer if anything could apply for replays and not just the battle as it is. It's kind of hard looking at a replay like "anime username 1 vs anime username 2" and know who's playing.

 

[Heika]

If you’re afraid of people setting their “aka” as someone else, thrn, instead of making it a “/status” alias, why not make it a “/user” alias that grabs the original name? This way people can’t have as an “aka” an account that they don’t own. And as far as tournament ruling goes you could switch it to “play with an aka that match or is similar to your smogon account/ that is your stour voiced account”.

And I guess for replay, you could do sumn like “playername(aka) vs playername(aka)” in the name of the battle?

 

[Lily]

The fact that we're going to the edge of the earth to find strange solutions to fix the issues with this new rule is concerning and indicates that the rule is one that players don't enjoy playing by - not something you want when your rules are almost exclusively dedicated towards fairness and enjoyment. The current implementation of the alt rule is the problem imo and we shouldn't need any code to fix it. What people did not like doing is needing to go through the "who's charizardfan69" "idk" and then needing to check the week thread to figure it out based on the alter's opponent. Given there's nothing stopping me from signing up to use whatever alt I want, that issue still applies - it ultimately means the less invested are going to be confused and have to search a thread regardless. It is imo not a desirable solution for this reason.

I feel that the easiest solution to the problem if we're against only allowing voiced smogtours alts is to allow the use of alts that make it clear who's playing. So stuff like "charizard fan lily" is ok, but "charizardfan69" is not. It is somewhat subjective but I think we can all agree that it's pretty obvious when who's playing is clear vs when it's not. No code required & preserves people's creativity / fun / weird need to larp or whatever, fixes the core issue people are unhappy with (the spectator experience) and doesn't result in unnecessary silly infractions. Or just nuke the rule altogether if it's truly impossible to come to an elegant solution; I personally would prefer to have a small limitation in place, but no rule > the current rule for sure.

 

[Aurella]

Just quickly posting to say that this rule is not worth keeping around if even common sense alts are open to infraction. Earlier tonight Xrn got infracted for playing on "Xrn", a PS account he recently gained access to that literally matches his exact Smogon account and Player Name entry.

Incriminating evidence: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8pu-657666

 

[Kalalokki]

Just quickly posting to say that this rule is not worth keeping around if even common sense alts are open to infraction. Earlier tonight Xrn got infracted for playing on "Xrn", a PS account he recently gained access to that literally matches his exact Smogon account and Player Name entry.

Incriminating evidence: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8pu-657666

View attachment 461276

Just quickly posting to say that the infraction has already been reversed after they appealed it:

Hi Xrn,

You're correct, this is indeed not a scenario this rule was intended to prevent. This infraction will be reversed as a result, and you're free to use Xrn for the remainder of SCL.

In cases like this, where your circumstances change in a way the host team cannot immediately/obviously see (specifically here, when you got new access to the PS alt Xrn partway through the season), I'd recommend reaching out to the hosts so they can be aware that your situation has changed and they can approve an exception to the rules as written, rather than having to go fix things after the fact.

 

[ABR]

even with common sense applied (theoretical) there’s still minimal gain in keeping this rule. the fact that we even have to debate what constitutes a reasonable alt is not worth the hassle. just let people use what they want and spend 1 second asking who’s playing if needed.

 

[BIHI]

Delete this stupid rule that only exists because of a dice thread, ban dice from posting in the policy section, remove my infraction point that i got for using an alt that includes "BIHI" in caps in it. Win/win/win, everyone is happy.

 

[bbeeaa]

What bihi said ^^^

This is the exact reason of why u don’t let keyboard warriors with exactly 0 common sense post shit on this thread.

Delete this stupid rule and just don’t allow everybody to push any bullshit that comes to their head

 

[freezai]

 

[Quite Quiet]

The next person who tries to attacks dice for this is going to be infracted; while dice made the thread initially it takes more than a single person to change rules. If you're unhappy about the alt rules by all means argue for why tours would be better off without the rule, but if you can't get your point across without personal attacks don't even bother posting.

 

[Finchinator]

My personal (not necessarily TD team backed) idea:

Let everyone use whatever alt they want* to use, but state their forum name and team on/by turn 1 in the battle chat if they are on an alt.

This allows for people to have whatever freedom of expression they desire, but it also makes spectating and replays cleaner with the clarity at the start of the game. It is a simple solution to a situation that should be pretty simple. Perhaps lame for phone spectators, but on computer you can always control F or scroll up on long games to find.

*all alts still have to be appropriate and rule abiding, which is up to host discretion of course

 

[Aqua Jet]

I support the above

E: I support it on the condition that it's not mandatory and there is no punishment for not following it, but it is strongly recommended to players.

Perhaps lame for phone spectators, but on computer you can always control F or scroll up on long games to find.

Also you can do this on mobile.
IPhone - Source

Android - Source

 

[Excal]

My personal (not necessarily TD team backed) idea:

Let everyone use whatever alt they want* to use, but state their forum name and team on/by turn 1 in the battle chat if they are on an alt.

This allows for people to have whatever freedom of expression they desire, but it also makes spectating and replays cleaner with the clarity at the start of the game. It is a simple solution to a situation that should be pretty simple. Perhaps lame for phone spectators, but on computer you can always control F or scroll up on long games to find.

*all alts still have to be appropriate and rule abiding, which is up to host discretion of course

Just let people use whichever alt they want without any inconvenience/stipulation and go back to the way things were before. Should we also state the score of an ongoing Bo3/Bo5 series so that spectators don't have to ask? No one who uses an alt is going to do this and trying to enforce it would be a disaster.

I think it was worth trying some restriction on alts bc some of the concerns were valid, but scl showed us that it was a huge hassle for everyone involved, including moderators. The old ways have worked for over a decade, self-expression, etc.

 

[Finchinator]

Just let people use whichever alt they want without any inconvenience/stipulation

Saying your username and team name isn’t exactly rocket science.

It’s a five-second obligation for the sake of addressing a need a very real portion of the community brought up. This still allows people to use their alts, which they weren’t allowed to during SCL, and that’s what I feel matters the most.

 

[elodin]

the alt rule is definitely one of the worst implemented on the site.

if alts are offensive just infract them. forcing players to play under their main alts apart from that serves 0 purpose.

use whatever alt you want. if people wanna know who you are they can figure it out in lobby or looking for replays.

stop making unnecessary rules for the playerbase still interested in smogon tournaments.

 

[Sabella]

So I have an idea but someone just say if its dumb or to hard to implement. Its pretty barebones atm so I have not considered everything but maybe someone more tech savy than i can make the idea better. This idea really only pertains to Official Tournament Games (sorry iguana) but I'm wondering if there's a way when before a game starts for each of the players can mark that their game is official. The game link would then appear in some sort of designated box area (or the room intro even?) that comes up with a command if you want and shows all Official tournament games happening at the time. The only thing I haven't thought of but might not even be an issue is from that point on someone, either one of the players or even a spectator could indicate in that designated box area who the game is between (using their actual smogon name/voiced alt). This would allow players to alt as long as their usernames arent offensive or breaking those kidna rules and also help the spectator issue. The idea might be a bit convoluted but I think would appease both sides.