Dugtrio (Full Revamp) +

Bass

Brother in arms
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnus
Reserving. Dugtrio hardly changed at all in Platinum, as the move tutor additions were unremarkable at best, useless at worst. However, the current analysis is very ancient (It primarily mentions trapping Heracross as one of Dugtrio's best uses, reflecting that this analysis was written during early DP). Thus, I plan to completely rewrite just about everything.

Anyway, there are currently only two viable sets in the analysis, so this shouldn't take very long.
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
It honestly doesn't really need much of a revamp other than maybe an SCMS edit removal of the Heracross mentions, which anyone can do.

Keep the 40 Def EVs by the way. They survive an Adamant Life Orb LUke ExtremeSpeed and there are virtually no Base 120 Pokémon worth tying with in OU. THe only one is Alakazam whom you should Sucker PUnch.
 
It doesn't need any controversial changes, but it is VERY outdated. I am not averse to a rewrite.
 

Bass

Brother in arms
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnus
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/dugtrio

[SET]
name: Revenge
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge / Rock Slide
move 3: Sucker Punch / Night Slash
move 4: Aerial Ace / Pursuit
item: Choice Band / Life Orb
ability: Arena Trap
nature: Jolly / Adamant
evs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>With its high Speed stat coupled with Arena Trap, Dugtrio has generally been a very reliable revenge killer since Advance. Earthquake is your primary attack, not only because it is Dugtrio's only STAB move, but because it can score some useful OHKOs against Heatran, Magnezone, and sometimes Tyranitar. Because of Dugtrio's mediocre Attack stat, you will need to score as many super effective hits as possible with your remaining moves. Stone Edge is needed to hit those Flying-types who are immune to Earthquake. You may prefer Rock Slide's higher accuracy and 30% flinch rate, which can be helpful when considering Dugtrio's frailty and the flinch rate is complemented by Dugtrio's excellent Speed. However, Stone Edge's higher base power is generally more important as it will almost always be able to 2HKO minimum Defense Gyarados, Zapdos, and Salamence. Sucker Punch's priority will allow you to beat the occasional Alakazam. It will also OHKO Azelf and Gengar, though they can easily switch out since they have Levitate. Sucker Punch's low PP can also be easily abused by these two Pokemon, as both are often packing non-attacking moves. Because of this, you may opt for Night Slash instead. Aerial Ace is in your last slot as is your only reliable method for revenge killing Heracross and Breloom. However, since both aren't that common, you can use Pursuit instead, as it will grant you a kill against Azelf and Gengar.</p>

<p>Jolly nature is preferred, as you will be able to outspeed everything up to positive natured base 115 Speed Pokemon with the given EVs. This will allow you to get that crucial revenge kill on several Pokemon, most notably Infernape, Choice Scarf Magnezone, and Tyranitar with a single Dragon Dance. Unless you are worried about OHKOing max HP Tyranitar, Adamant is generally unnecessary.</p>

<p>Choosing your item is a matter of preferences. Choice Band provides you enough power to get that crucial 2HKO against Blissey as well as an OHKO against most Tyranitar, with Stealth Rock factored in. However, many bulkier Pokemon like Scizor, Heracross, Metagross, and even Tyranitar can easily revenge kill Dugtrio with Pursuit if it is stuck on the wrong move. If you use Life Orb, this is no longer a problem, and your attacks will still have enough power to finish off more frail Pokemon, but you will no longer be able to reliably 2HKO Blissey or OHKO Tyranitar, even with Stealth Rock factored in. If you are having trouble deciding, then you may refer to <a href="/forums/showthread.php?t=17835">this discussion thread</a> to determine which item is better for your needs.</p>

[SET]
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stone Edge
move 3: Night Slash / Sucker Punch
move 4: Aerial Ace
item: Choice Scarf
ability: Arena Trap
nature: Adamant
evs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>While Dugtrio is certainly fast, there are still a wide array of Choice Scarf users that outspeed the standard Revenge set. With 168 Speed EVs and a Choice Scarf, however, Dugtrio will reach 477 speed, which will outspeed most scarfed Pokemon with ease, most notably Heatran, neutral Speed natured Infernape, and Heracross.</p>

<p>Your attacking moves are virtually the same as those on the Revenge set. However, since you no longer have the boosts from Choice Band or Life Orb, you will generally have a much more difficult time scoring OHKOs. Earthquake will still OHKO Heatran, Infernape, and Magnezone, but will never OHKO min HP / min Def Tyranitar. Since you outspeed all Salamence and Gyarados after 1 Dragon Dance, you can catch a surprise hit with Stone Edge, though you will very rarely ever KO them without Stealth Rock support. Night Slash is used over Sucker Punch, primarily because you will never need the priority as you outspeed almost everything, save the occasional Timid Scarf Gengar or Azelf. Keep in mind that they are not OHKOed by either of these moves. Aerial Ace is there for Choice Scarf Heracross, but it will rarely OHKO unless Stealth Rock is in play.</p>

<p>Adamant nature is a must as you will need as much attack as possible if you want to reliably revenge kill several of the aforementioned threats.</p>


[Other Options]

<p>Beyond the moves already listed, Dugtrio's physical movepool is pretty barren. Dugtrio can potentially be used as a lead if it runs Stealth Rock and Protect with Pursuit and while holding a Focus Sash, though its use is very limited when compared to the other two sets.</p>

[EVs]

<p>252 Attack EVs on all sets is a no brainer, especially because of Dugtrio's less than stellar attack stat. While you may just as easily dump 252 EVs into Speed, 40 EVs in HP are useful because they will give you a high chance of survival from an ExtremeSpeed from an Adamant Lucario with Life Orb. This will leave you with 216 Speed EVs, which is still enough to outspeed base 115 Speed Pokemon if you are running a Jolly nature. Although this means you will no longer have the chance to tie other base 120s, the only one remotely common in OU is Alakazam, which is not a problem thanks to Sucker Punch. For the Choice Scarf set, 168 Speed EVs are enough to outrun Electivire with a Motor Drive boost.</p>

[Opinion]

<p>Dugtrio has not changed very much since Advance, as it is still good at doing what it does best best, which is revenge killing. However, there are also many factors that have hampered Dugtrio's usefulness. Several Pokemon now have access to Physical Pursuit, most notably Metagross, Weavile, Tyranitar, and Scizor. Due to the effects of the Choice items Dugtrio commonly carries, it is often a sitting duck after it gets its kill. This also means that Dugtrio faces serious competition as far as revenge killing goes, as all of the previously mentioned Pokemon have much better Attack and Defensive stats. Worse yet, there is also an abundance of priority users that can prey on Dugtrio's terrible defenses, such as Lucario and Scizor. Lastly, the prevalence of Trick and Choice Scarf has reduced the number of Pokemon that Dugtrio can reliably revenge kill, which sometimes forces it to use a Choice Scarf of its own at the cost of putting up with its mediocre Attack.</p>

<p>However, despite these issues, Dugtrio's revenge killing abilities can be a great asset for most teams in the currently fast-paced and offensive metagame. Even just one surprise kill from Dugtrio can stop your opponent's sweep, or sometimes create an opening for a sweep of your own. While Dugtrio is helpful in this regard, you will need to be cautious.</p>

[Counters]

<p>No team should ever expect to be fully prepared for Dugtrio as being unable to switch due to Arena Trap will almost always guarantee it at least one KO. However, after Dugtrio makes its kill, it is very easily stopped with a revenge killer of your own thanks to its low defenses. Scizor can easily OHKO it with a Bullet Bunch and Life Orb if it decides to stay in, or it can simply use Pursuit if it attempts to switch out. Weavile is also a great contender for similar reasons. It can OHKO it with Pursuit if it switches out, or it can finish it off with Ice Punch if it stays in. Porygon2 can Trace Arena Trap and KO it with Ice Beam. Even a Dugtrio of your own can work if your opponent's Dugtrio is stuck on Stone Edge.</p>
 

Caelum

qibz official stalker
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Sucker Punch's priority will allow you to beat the occasional Alakazam, as well as hit Azelf and Gengar
Why are Azelf and Gengar staying in for the Sucker Punch at all? It's obvious it's coming (Dugtrio can't really afford too fancy prediction because of its frailty) so they'll just switch. Maybe Sucker Punch was a surprise in early DP but when over 70% of the Dugtrio are carrying the move it's not really surprising anyone anymore. Pursuit would actually make more sense to surprise Gengar and Azelf.

<p>As far as your item goes, Choice Band is your best bet because it provides you enough power to get that crucial 2HKO against Blissey as well as an OHKO against most Tyranitar, with Stealth Rock factored in. However, many bulkier Pokemon like Scizor, Metagross, and even Tyranitar can easily revenge kill Dugtrio with Pursuit if it is stuck on the wrong move. Life Orb will mitigate this problem, but you will no longer be able to reliably 2HKO Blissey or OHKO Tyranitar, even with Stealth Rock factored in. </p>
I actually liked the discussion link in the Dugtrio analysis. I thought it was a well-thought out thread (and OP) and would help the reader better decide. Much in the way the Wobbuffet analysis links to that lengthy Tickle + Pursuit discussion. As of late, I think there has been a re-popularity of Pursuit users so I think the discussion is still applicable. Just my thoughts though.

<p>While Dugtrio is certainly fast, there are still a wide array of Choice Scarf users that outspeed the standard Revenge set. With 168 Speed EVs and a Choice Scarf, however, Dugtrio will reach 477 speed, which will outspeed most scarfed Pokemon with ease, most notably Heatran, Infernape, and Heracross.</p>
Technically, +Speed Choice Scarf Infernape can outrun you (rare as that might be). I'd change this too "..."most notably Heatran, Heracross, and neutral Speed natured Infernape."

<p>252 Attack EVs on all sets is a no brainer, especially because of Dugtrio's less than stellar attack stat. While you may just as easily dump 252 EVs into Speed, 40 EVs in HP are useful because they will give you a high chance of survival from an ExtremeSpeed from an Adamant Lucario with Life Orb. This will leave you with 216 Speed EVs, which is still enough to outspeed base 115 Speed Pokemon if you are running a Jolly nature. Although this means you will no longer have the chance to tie other base 120's, the only one remotely common in OU is Alakazam, which is not a problem thanks to Sucker Punch. For the Choice Scarf set, 168 Speed EVs are enough to outrun Electivire with a Motor Drive boost.</p>
Personal preference but I prefer the current phrasing of the bolded line " The remaining 40 EVs were placed in HP and allow Dugtrio to survive an Adamant Lucario's Life Orb ExtremeSpeed on average after Stealth Rock damage" Maybe I'm bias because I changed the Dugtrio EV spread and section recently though :p.

I skimmed this so I wasn't really looking for grammar / spelling stuff but you did spell Porygon2 wrong in the second to last line. Edit: Actually I'll just edit some typos / grammar stuff myself.
 

cim

happiness is such hard work
is a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Why are Azelf and Gengar staying in for the Sucker Punch at all? It's obvious it's coming (Dugtrio can't really afford too fancy prediction because of its frailty) so they'll just switch. Maybe Sucker Punch was a surprise in early DP but when over 70% of the Dugtrio are carrying the move it's not really surprising anyone anymore. Pursuit would actually make more sense to surprise Gengar and Azelf.
If a Dugtrio comes in on Gengar or Azelf I've always made a mental note that it "must" have Pursuit and such. It was almost as bad as Psycho Shift Cress in terms of "surprise value".
 

Caelum

qibz official stalker
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Are you suggesting that Pursuit sucks as a "surprise" or Sucker Punch (either way Psycho Shift Cress sucks lol)?

As a side note, what's up with this ...

Dugtrio | Move | Protect | 6.3
Dugtrio | Move | Stealth Rock | 5.6
Dugtrio | Item | Focus Sash | 12.6

Is there some other set (it's probably a gimmick but I guess it's worth at least asking) out there I'm completely unaware of ?___?

If they are being used with this much frequency it could deserve a potential mention in "Other Options" so this is why I'm asking.
 

Bass

Brother in arms
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnus
Why are Azelf and Gengar staying in for the Sucker Punch at all? It's obvious it's coming (Dugtrio can't really afford too fancy prediction because of its frailty) so they'll just switch. Maybe Sucker Punch was a surprise in early DP but when over 70% of the Dugtrio are carrying the move it's not really surprising anyone anymore. Pursuit would actually make more sense to surprise Gengar and Azelf.
True, Sucker Punch is far more common on Dugtrio than Pursuit, but honestly, since Dugtrio almost always comes in after a Pokemon on your team is KO'd, any smart opponent would realize that you will likely have Pursuit if Dugtrio comes in AFTER they get the kill.

Still, I'll note that Azelf and Gengar can easily switch out, but I'll leave Pursuit in Other Options for now.

I actually liked the discussion link in the Dugtrio analysis. I thought it was a well-thought out thread (and OP) and would help the reader better decide. Much in the way the Wobbuffet analysis links to that lengthy Tickle + Pursuit discussion. As of late, I think there has been a re-popularity of Pursuit users so I think the discussion is still applicable. Just my thoughts though.
I agree, choosing not mentioning that thread was an oversight on my part. I changed the item paragraph a little bit, and I added the link to the thread.


Technically, +Speed Choice Scarf Infernape can outrun you (rare as that might be). I'd change this too "..."most notably Heatran, Heracross, and neutral Speed natured Infernape."
Will add.

Thanks for the suggestions.

EDIT: I have never encountered a Dugtrio before with those moves, just the two sets I revised. Focus Sash MAY be worthy of Other Options, but the other two moves seem like a waste, IMO.
 
There's a lead Dugtrio with Focus Sash with Earthquake, Stone Edge, Stealth Rock, Night Slash/Pursuit. It's meant to stop leading Azelf and Tyranitar from doing much and to get a fast Stealth Rock. Hopefully someone who has experience with the set can elaborate. I have never used it, I just remember it was in a couple RMT's.
 
Dugtrio | Move | Protect | 6.3
Dugtrio | Move | Stealth Rock | 5.6
Dugtrio | Item | Focus Sash | 12.6

Is there some other set (it's probably a gimmick but I guess it's worth at least asking) out there I'm completely unaware of ?___?

If they are being used with this much frequency it could deserve a potential mention in "Other Options" so this is why I'm asking.
It has been posted in some RMTs (I guess two that I saw lol), mainly against suicide Infernape: Protect on the Fake Out, then SR. If he SRs, you kill him first, if he doesn't, he's at 1 HP and you can easily send Scizor/Lucario/faster anything to kill him without having SR at your side.

The same about Azelf except that he can switch.
I think the moveset was EQ/Night Slash/SR/Protect@Sash.
Never tested though (and it looks like it isn't very efficient, except against Tyranitar leads). Just posting what I know about the set.

edit: beaten
 

Scofield

Ooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhh, Kate.......
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Past SPL Championis a Past WCoP Champion
Are you suggesting that Pursuit sucks as a "surprise" or Sucker Punch (either way Psycho Shift Cress sucks lol)?

As a side note, what's up with this ...

Dugtrio | Move | Protect | 6.3
Dugtrio | Move | Stealth Rock | 5.6
Dugtrio | Item | Focus Sash | 12.6

Is there some other set (it's probably a gimmick but I guess it's worth at least asking) out there I'm completely unaware of ?___?

If they are being used with this much frequency it could deserve a potential mention in "Other Options" so this is why I'm asking.
I've seen it a couple times. What happens is a pokemon, usually celebi, uses perish song, then u-turns to dugtrio, trapping it. It protects once, twice if it's lucky, subs, or relies on sash to survive the last perish trap count, thus killing the opponent.

EDIT: For the record, I think this is a pretty foolish strategy, and not worth a mention on the analysis.
 
If you want a chance for it to be put on the analysis, you could, at the very least, elaborate with nature, EVs, moves, etc.
 

Bass

Brother in arms
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnus
Personally, I am open for people writing an analysis on this set, however, I don't really see much merit in it at all. It currently seems "Other Options" at best in my opinion.
 

Bass

Brother in arms
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnus
Alright, I fixed "OHKOs" and "120s". I also decided that Pursuit is worth a mention in the revenge set. Lastly, I added Stealth Rock and Focus Sash to Other Options for now.

As I said before, if anyone can show me that this set is really more viable than that, I will add it to the analysis if someone writes it up as I have no experience with it. Otherwise, I am pretty satisfied with what I have now, content wise.
 

Caelum

qibz official stalker
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
It will also OHKO Azelf and Gengar, though they can easily switch out since they have Levitate.
It will?

388 Atk Sucker Punch vs. 292 HP / 176 Def Azelf: 254 - 300 (86.99% - 102.72%). That's only a 15% chance to OHKO and is not even guaranteed to OHKO with Stealth Rock (92% chance though).

426 Atk Sucker Punch vs 292 HP / 176 Def Azelf: 278 - 328 (95.21% - 112.33%). That OHKOes 66% of the time; however, this does always OHKO with Stealth Rock.

However, it does always OHKO Gengar.

Since you outspeed all Salamence and Gyarados after 1 Dragon Dance, you can catch a surprise hit with Stone Edge, though you will very rarely ever KO them without Stealth Rock support.
You have to run a minimum of 212 Speed EVs to hit 493 Speed enough to outrun +Speed Salamence after a Dragon Dance (it hits 292).

I was posting to partially ask if the Speed Evs should be bumped up to 212 for that reason but darkie already loaded this.
 
I believe the set was something along the lines of this.

[SET]
name: Lead
move 1: Earthquake
move 2: Stealth Rock
move 3: Protect
move 4: Toxic / Sucker Punch (??)
item: Focus Sash
ability: Arena Trap
nature: Jolly
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Although it is generally known as a revenge killer, Dugtrio can make for a useful lead. Because of its high Speed, it is often able to get Stealth Rocks out on the field before it can be Taunted or statused by a slower Pokemon such as Bronzong.</p>

<p>Earthquake provides a strong STAB move, OHKOing Infernape and Heatran all of the time, while also 2HKOing Tyranitar all of the time. Protect allows you to scout your opponent's move if you suspect they are wielding a Choice Item, and helps preserve your Focus Sash so that it isn't destroyed by Fake Out, a move used on various leads. Toxic provides a way to debilitate bulkier Pokemon that you can't touch, such as Swampert, but Sucker Punch may also be used if you prefer the priority it offers Dugtrio against faster Pokemon that can OHKO it, such as Azelf or Gengar.</p>

------------------------

This is simply a very quick write-up, as I have to leave shortly. You can edit it or do whatever you wish - it's just the gist of the set.
 

maddog

is a master debater
is a Contributor Alumnus
It seems to me that the effectiveness of the set would be to Earthqake on Turn 1 against Tyranitar/ whatever, and if Focus Sash saves them, they will probably lay SR or something. Then when they attack you, you can Sucker Punch them, and kill them. The problem with this, though, most SR leads have Flying/ Levivate (I'm looking at Aero/ Azelf/ Zong). It would be useful against, say, lead Infernape. Protect Turn 1 on Fake Out, EQ while they SR (focus sash saves them), and then Sucker Punch them for the kill while they are at 1 HP and you still have your Sash. But, I believe I have already suggested 5 moves (lol).

tl;dr verison: Other Options.
 

Bass

Brother in arms
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top CAP Contributor Alumnus
It will?

388 Atk Sucker Punch vs. 292 HP / 176 Def Azelf: 254 - 300 (86.99% - 102.72%). That's only a 15% chance to OHKO and is not even guaranteed to OHKO with Stealth Rock (92% chance though).

426 Atk Sucker Punch vs 292 HP / 176 Def Azelf: 278 - 328 (95.21% - 112.33%). That OHKOes 66% of the time; however, this does always OHKO with Stealth Rock.

However, it does always OHKO Gengar.



You have to run a minimum of 212 Speed EVs to hit 493 Speed enough to outrun +Speed Salamence after a Dragon Dance (it hits 292).

I was posting to partially ask if the Speed Evs should be bumped up to 212 for that reason but darkie already loaded this.
I always thought it did OHKO for some reason... Oh well, your calculations are definitely correct, so this is a pretty huge oversight on my part, thanks for correcting this.

As far as speed, I am definitely open to changing it. I don't know how common Jolly Salamence is, but if the EVs can be changed since you will still have enough HP EVs to survive Adamant Lucario Extremespeed.
 
I don't think Protect or Sucker Punch are useful seeing as they can just use Stealth Rock.

But a lead idea isn't a terrible one. Pursuit / SR / EQ / Filler? Holding... well I'm not sure.

I know 40 SpD EVs let you survive Azelf's Psychic.
 

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top