DPPt In-Game Tier List Thread v2

Status
Not open for further replies.
Past Maylene, quick thoughts
Kadabra-I evolve at 37 with emulator settings but Kadabra really hasn't been impressive at all. It struggles against Gardenia unless you get Psybeam at level 24 which wasn't very inspiring. Outside of oddball Disable-Night-Slash-on-a-KO-then-Miracle-Eye-to-explode-Skuntank-with-Psybeam shenanigans, it loses to Jupiter as well, is pretty bleh for Fantina taking out the small stuff, then again loses to Maylene's Lucario. Feels like a B tier honestly, but Zam and Specs come soon alongside Psychic and Calm Mind, so maybe it will pull up the punch.

Porygon: Evolved to Porygon2 immediately. Fantastic route cleaner with Psybeam and Signal Beam alongside Recover. Has an acceptable performance against Maylene, and get Download, please. Trace / Adaptability is very niche but Download makes Maylene much smoother.

Piplup: This, similar to Turtwig is all over the place. It consistently beats Gym Aces but struggles to outright sweep. When both Fantina's Mismagius and Maylene's Lucario are dealt with via Bide, it's hard to gain a concrete opinion on this thing. Though I definitely recommend waiting a level to evolve for early BubbleBeam on Mars, as you win with it at level 18.

Driftloon: REALLLY weird, does fine enough on routes and gets to Driftblim pretty handily, but it actually fails to sweep Gardenia due to Rade. Surprisngly can be okay for Fantina taking Mismagius to red with boosted Payback. Once again meh for Maylene. Easy C tier right now, but Gust and evolution means it is just fine for route trash until Fly. Better than you expect, but never standout.
 
So, the game is nearly complete. But first, I have some things I need to take care of, like getting Torterra a reliable Grass STAB that doesn't murder him. fixing Lopunny's moveset and catching Rotom up to the rest of the team.

So after trips to Hearthome City, Celestic Town, Cavalave City, Veilstone City, Celestic Town, the League, Valley Windworks and finally the League again I'm ready to take on the Elite 4 and... Gavin shows up. I legit forgot about this battle.

Staraptor : Nopes out from Glaceon with U-Turn into Infernape, who barely hangs on from a crit Ice Beam. I switch to Rotom who no sells... a fighting move before being 1 hit by a crit Flamethrower. Lopunny cleans up with Return.

Heracross : Takes Dustox down after getting hit with 2 Psychic's. Lopunny cleans up with Return.

Staraptor, take 2 : Nearly one hits Glaceon with Close Combat. I switch in Torterra. It U-Turns out into Floatzel as I heal Glaceon? It's got Ice Fang. Too bad I switched into Probopass. Brick Break doesn't KO, it's knocked into red by Thunder. I heal Torterra as Probo goes down. Lopunny cleans up with Return.

Staraptor, take 3 : Close Combat can't OHKO, Ice Beam can.

Snorlax : Earthquake is a 3HKO, but so is Body Slam and it paralysed me first turn. After I heal up to avoid that it uses Rest, and stays asleep for the 3 hits.

Roserade : Gets off 2 Giga Drain's before Earthquake 1HKO's. I had a fully healed Glaceon waiting if it did manage to take Torterra down.

Time to heal. And give Probopass Stealth Rock.

v Aaron

Yanmega : Double Team couldn't save it from almost being 1HKO'd by Probopass' Rock Slide, Flash Cannon softened him up after healing and a second put him down.

Heracross : Stone Edge wrecked Dustox, Megahorn 1HKO'd Torterra, Rotom barely managed to live a Night Slash and 2HKO'd with Thunderbolt.

Scizor : Probopass managed to Rock Slide it to death with healing whenever he was in Iron Head's KO range.

Vespiquen : Came in, took half from Stealth Rock, got taken out by Ice Beam.

Drapion : Apparently has no Dark STAB. Ice Fang was a 3HKO, Thunder was a 2, but I still had to heal due to missing.

v Bertha

Whiscash : Gets off a Sandstorm as I Giga Drain, a Full Restore stops Crunch from taking it out but that knocks it down far enough that the second Giga is a KO.

Gliscor : Barely hangs on from Lopunny's Blizzard and nearly knocks her into red with an Earthquake before being taken out with Return. I probably shouldn't have used Blizzard with the sand still up.

Hippowdon : Sand Stream's a second sandstorm before being one shot by Icicle Plate Ice Beam.

Golem : Has Fire Punch. It wouldn't have been enough to 2HKO even if I wasn't using Giga Drain, which was enough.

Rypherior : Has Megahorn. Which wasn't quite enough to 1HKO after Giga Drain brought Torterra back to full. Wood Hammer took it down from about 70% for a double KO.

Torterra, Lopunny and Glaceon levelled up.

v Flint. Fuck.

Houndoom : Manages to take down Probopass, but I got Rocks up and the sun only had two turns left.

Infernape : Took down Glaceon, Rotom and Dustox before going down to Earthquake after Flare Blitz barely didn't KO Torterra

Flareon. 2HKO'd by Return from Lopunny.

Rapidash : After lots of switching around to take Bounces and healing, it killed itself trying to bring down Lopunny.

Magmortar : Flamethrower - Crit - 1HKO on Probopass. Flamethrower - 1HKO on Lopunny, but Return did a massive chunk. Max Revive Probo, Rotom goes down. Probo takes over half from Flamethrower, so I gamble and let him fall while reviving Lopunny. It works, Return knocking out Magmortar from just under half.

Lopunny leveled up again.

v Lucian

Mr. Mime : Dustox gets one hit, Glaceon gets revenge but not before it can set up screens.

Bronzong : Takes down Rotom even with Ominous Wind getting the boost due to Calm Mind, Glaceon does nothing, Torterra manages to bring it to like 2% and Lopunny cleans up. Again.

Gallade : Doesn't do as much with any of its moves as Earthquake does despite being 10 levels higher.

Espeon : Can't really do anything to Probopass, but doesn't take much in return.

Aakazam : One hit wth Focus Blast. My team really doesn't like fighting, does it?

Probopass hit level 49.

I'm going to be honest, I don't think I can win with the levels I'm at. Not when my team is this weak to fighting type moves, fire type moves and special attacks. Gonna train them all up to level 51 since that's the highest level in the last match before you can take on the league.

Before League.png


Tomorrow, we win. Hopefully.

I'm torn. On one hand the fact that it's pretty useless at the end unless you give it Giga Drain and the fact that it needs minimum 2 TM's makes me want to put it in D, on the other hand the fact that it is so good when you get it and the fact that not much else wants the TM's it wants most makes me want to keep a C ranking. On Balance though, D is probably fairer.

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

It's rarely going to be ripping through teams or even bosses on its own, too frail and doesn't quite have the power for that, but when you're levels below your opposition having something that can come in and reliably move first anyway for about 30-40% damage is very useful, as far too often you will find that you don't quite have enough power to get the KO. Being able to throw the likes of Focus Blast and Blizzard on for stuff you might otherwise struggle with helps as well.

B-Tier
These Pokémon are efficient, but not as reliable as the A-Tiers due to having noticeable flaws such as poor coverage, a long period of mediocrity or severe availability issues.

Really wishing I hadn't replaced Leech Seed for Giga Drain, would have come in handy more than Crunch has, but at the same time Crunch would probably have come in handy against Lucian if Bronnzong hadn't taken it out. Really wants more than 4 moves, Rock Polish, Curse and Stone Edge would all be nice to have. Would also be nice to have known that Torterra gets Giga Drain by level up so I could see how Dustox does against the Elite 4 with it.

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

Thunder is the only move that truely has enough power, and with just 70 accuracy it's not something you can rely on. Shadow Ball, while it would help with ground and electric types, wouldn't fix the issue as Thunderbolt is more powerful but it's still only just enough sometimes. Not much else to say really.

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

Flash Cannon is a great, reliable STAB move. Power Gem is similar to Rock Slide but trades flinching for coming off Probo's better attack stat. Thunder is about as powerful as Flash Cannon and provides some useful coverage. Stealth Rock really helps with Aaron and Flint if you can get it up, definitly more than Earthquake would have.

C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.

The only Pokémon I have that can consistently hit for the same sort of damage the Elite 4 can. Ice Beam and Blizzard, backed by the Ice Plate, are incredibly powerful, and it's bukier than you might think too.

Thoughts on me going back after I beat the Elite 4 to see how Dustox would do if I hadn't wasted Giga Drain on a pokemon that learns it naturally?
 
Last edited:
Porygon: Evolved to Porygon2 immediately. Fantastic route cleaner with Psybeam and Signal Beam alongside Recover. Has an acceptable performance against Maylene, and get Download, please. Trace / Adaptability is very niche but Download makes Maylene much smoother.
And you're gonna love when it gets Agility.

+2 Spe and +1 SpA means you're probably sweeping some unsuspecting fool pretty much effortlessly.
 
Okay, availability. This honestly is...bleh. You get it early but you need to backtrack to Eterna so yay. Maylene is halfway okay but the other matchups it doesn't hit super-effectively in, Whiscash will fail. It doesn't have the stats to back up the good type combination at all, and right when you get Whiscash, guess what, everything starts evolving and likely is superior statwise. Honestly, I think pretty much any Water type is better than this. Gastrodon has higher firepower, Floatzel hits harder AND is faster, Tentacruel hits marginally harder and has pretty good Speed...
Barboach can be obtained at Route 208 (left of where you get the Good Rod). Also, I do believe its stats are good enough. Sure, they're not impressive, but they're similar to Lantern and Dewgong, both of which are effective mons due to their typing and access to strong moves such as Surf and Ice Beam. I've Lantern and Whiscash two-shot most mons that don't resist its STABs in nuzlockes. If they have Base 70+ in Atk or SpAtk, they can deal damage with the right moves.

I will give you that it faces a lot of competition from other Water-types (most of which do sport higher offenses), but it's actually better than a lot of other water types (Tentacruel, Milotic, Mantine, Lumineon, Seaking, Bibarel). It also is a Ground-type, which is important. I do believe it's fair to advocate for D ranking, but neither of us have the run data to really pinpoint how truly effective it is (edit: okay, you have used Gastrodon - but it's stuck with Non-STAB Mud Bomb until it evolves, and it requires a TM for Earthquake beyond that). I do ask you to reconsider. Your arguments are a bit too dismissive.
 
Barboach can be obtained at Route 208 (left of where you get the Good Rod). Also, I do believe its stats are good enough. Sure, they're not impressive, but they're similar to Lantern and Dewgong, both of which are effective mons due to their typing and access to strong moves such as Surf and Ice Beam. I've Lantern and Whiscash two-shot most mons that don't resist its STABs in nuzlockes. If they have Base 70+ in Atk or SpAtk, they can deal damage with the right moves.

I will give you that it faces a lot of competition from other Water-types (most of which do sport higher offenses), but it's actually better than a lot of other water types (Tentacruel, Milotic, Mantine, Lumineon, Seaking, Bibarel). It also is a Ground-type, which is important. I do believe it's fair to advocate for D ranking, but neither of us have the run data to really pinpoint how truly effective it is (edit: okay, you have used Gastrodon - but it's stuck with Non-STAB Mud Bomb until it evolves, and it requires a TM for Earthquake beyond that). I do ask you to reconsider. Your arguments are a bit too dismissive.
My mistake on availability, thanks for the correction!

Sorry, I’m not reconsidering though. Barboach was pure garbage. And it’s not better than Tentacruel, who has outright better stats.

Better than Milotic? Technically in stats no. If availability was discounted Milotic is outright better too. Accounting for availability, saying something is better than Milotic is like saying something is better than Shieldon: it’s effortless.

Being better than Bibarel, Seaking and Lumineon is also not a high bar when they are bottom of the barrel.

I stand by the fact Whiscash is disappointingly mediocre. Usable yes but not good. If you disagree that’s fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But I can have experience with something despite not having logs. It was a while ago but I remember hating every minute of using Barboach. The Abilities aren’t worth anything either.
 
Sorry, I’m not reconsidering though. Barboach was pure garbage. And it’s not better than Tentacruel, who has outright better stats.

Better than Milotic? Technically in stats no. If availability was discounted Milotic is outright better too. Accounting for availability, saying something is better than Milotic is like saying something is better than Shieldon: it’s effortless.

Being better than Bibarel, Seaking and Lumineon is also not a high bar when they are bottom of the barrel.

I stand by the fact Whiscash is disappointingly mediocre. Usable yes but not good. If you disagree that’s fine. You are entitled to your opinion. But I can have experience with something despite not having logs. It was a while ago but I remember hating every minute of using Barboach. The Abilities aren’t worth anything either.
Oh yeah, I agree Milotic is definitely better than Whishcash outside of availability. Availability is by far the biggest reason (though its Ground-typing also matters).

Tentacruel does have better stats (notably higher SpDef and Speed, slightly better SpAtk), but I think its Poison typing betrays it in the late game against Bertha and Lucian. You also need Surf to obtain (I could be wrong in that it can be obtained earlier). But even then it still could be better than Whiscash, though I'm not convince at the moment. It doesn't have a Grass-weakness, which is likely relevant.

And yeah, it's fair to say that being better than Seaking and Lumineon does not mean much. It faces competition as a Water-type (even as a Ground-type) from harder-hitting Floatzel, Empoleon, Gyarados, etc.

I do want to test Barboach out when I find an opportunity (it may be a while sadly). I want to see how my experience with it in DP compares with yours. I could in fact be giving it too much credit, and it could very well be D-tier.
 
Oh yeah, I agree Milotic is definitely better than Whishcash outside of availability. Availability is by far the biggest reason (though its Ground-typing also matters).

Tentacruel does have better stats (notably higher SpDef and Speed, slightly better SpAtk), but I think its Poison typing betrays it in the late game against Bertha and Lucian. You also need Surf to obtain (I could be wrong in that it can be obtained earlier). But even then it still could be better than Whiscash, though I'm not convince at the moment. It doesn't have a Grass-weakness, which is likely relevant.

And yeah, it's fair to say that being better than Seaking and Lumineon does not mean much. It faces competition as a Water-type (even as a Ground-type) from harder-hitting Floatzel, Empoleon, Gyarados, etc.

I do want to test Barboach out when I find an opportunity (it may be a while sadly). I want to see how my experience with it in DP compares with yours. I could in fact be giving it too much credit, and it could very well be D-tier.
Tentacruel is indeed debatable, I can totally see why Poison betrays it lategame. But it has higher Speed at base 100, which is crucial for a Choice Specs bot.

Gyarados I think isn't that much of a Water type for a long time considering you need to have it for roughly 20 levels before you FINALLY get Aqua Tail at level 35. I've never liked this aspect of Gyarados alongside Slow growth rate, which is why I think the mon is decent, not broken.

Floatzel is weird as a Water. It's good...but it has to wait a long time until Surf, like most other Waters, and Aqua Jet really isn't all that strong. It's fraility really doesn't help it early on, but it does have an early evolution and is a notable Fantina check via Crunch and higher Speed, so that helps.

My experience with Whiscash was in Platinum, for reference. I don't think any of the Water / Ground types are particularly good since the only battles they excel in are by far some of the easiest major battles.

I generally give Fantina and Wake (Platinum variants), Lucian, first Mars and Jupiter battles, and last Cyrus battle high marks if a mon excels in them. Everywhere else isn't all that notable aside from maybe the ace mon. Cynthia would be on the high priority list too, but she can kind of be cheesed by setup (I have literally swept her with Bibarel, not kidding, as well as Rhyperior).
 
Double post but Volt-Ikazuchi has informed me he no longer wants to lead this thread anymore, so I guess for the time being I'll serve as temporary leader.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I've been tiering for well over two and a half years, and I've noticed the market for these sort of lists is...sort of dying. Additionally, I'm kinda tied up with the other tier lists and HGSS writeups at the moment and I can't run DPPT as fast as the other games, so I'm asking you, the community: do you all particularly want to see this list published on-site or not? I'm willing to make the effort but would definitely need some more help with tests if possible. I would also kind of want HGSS, USUM, and FRLG settled first before I truly devote time to this. Additionally, BDSP might take all the traffic away from this list when it releases in roughly a month. And yes, I know school will take some time away from this for people.

If you guys want to see this DPTT list published, respond to this post within...let's give it two weeks. I only want to continue if you guys do.
 
First, I see no benefit in rushing to publish this, and I think it's perfectly okay to work on DPPt for 2 or 3 more years. Finishing HGSS and USUM is probably a better use of your time right now.

Second, you can't edit the tier list that Ikazuchi posted, right? How are we going to keep track of changes when Ikazuchi is gone?
 
First, I see no benefit in rushing to publish this, and I think it's perfectly okay to work on DPPt for 2 or 3 more years. Finishing HGSS and USUM is probably a better use of your time right now.

Second, you can't edit the tier list that Ikazuchi posted, right? How are we going to keep track of changes when Ikazuchi is gone?
No one said anything about rushing things, just overall demand.

As for me... I just don't have the time to lead the project, and I broke my hand Sunday, so it got even worse.

As long as someone compiles the changes though, I don't mind updating the list.
 
Double post but Volt-Ikazuchi has informed me he no longer wants to lead this thread anymore, so I guess for the time being I'll serve as temporary leader.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but I've been tiering for well over two and a half years, and I've noticed the market for these sort of lists is...sort of dying. Additionally, I'm kinda tied up with the other tier lists and HGSS writeups at the moment and I can't run DPPT as fast as the other games, so I'm asking you, the community: do you all particularly want to see this list published on-site or not? I'm willing to make the effort but would definitely need some more help with tests if possible. I would also kind of want HGSS, USUM, and FRLG settled first before I truly devote time to this. Additionally, BDSP might take all the traffic away from this list when it releases in roughly a month. And yes, I know school will take some time away from this for people.

If you guys want to see this DPTT list published, respond to this post within...let's give it two weeks. I only want to continue if you guys do.
I'd personally love to see an updated list published one day, whenever that is. I myself probably won't use it and to your point, not sure if there will be much more of an overall demand given the upcoming release of BDSP. But just for the sake of quality control, the current published list could certainly use an update. If such a list is going to be on the site at all, it should be done correctly, is my philosophy.

That said, I'm nothing but an armchair critic. I don't have the time nor experience to test mons myself so I'm not sure how useful I am to this project outside of occasional opinions. So I don't know how much weight my opinion has on this matter, but that's my two cents. Platinum is a game I love a lot and would love to see it done justice with a properly published in game tier list.
 
I'd personally love to see an updated list published one day, whenever that is. I myself probably won't use it and to your point, not sure if there will be much more of an overall demand given the upcoming release of BDSP. But just for the sake of quality control, the current published list could certainly use an update. If such a list is going to be on the site at all, it should be done correctly, is my philosophy.

That said, I'm nothing but an armchair critic. I don't have the time nor experience to test mons myself so I'm not sure how useful I am to this project outside of occasional opinions. So I don't know how much weight my opinion has on this matter, but that's my two cents. Platinum is a game I love a lot and would love to see it done justice with a properly published in game tier list.
Oh, I know the old list could use an update. My personal favorite is this.

Screen Shot 2021-10-21 at 8.43.59 AM.png


Mild update to my run. I discovered my Modest Alakazam (not on purpose) had a s Special Attack IV of 4, so I sent it to my friends to help me fix it.

Also adding Magmar to my team.

Also in my opinion Wukong, you are exceptionally informed on in-game stuff! I totally get not everyone has the time! We will hopefully find a way to make it work. Maybe.
 
Last edited:
I apologize if the initial post seemed a little pompous. I know its two days early, but I felt like posting now because my Thursday / Friday are a bit busy and I wanted to get my thoughts on the table now.

BDSP is less than a month. Legends comes in roughly three months. I think I'm going to quietly keep this running for now and we'll play it by ear - the hype for the new releases will probably override our list for the time being, and I also wouldn't mind finishing up some of the other lists (HGSS, USUM, FRLG) while that is going on. So I'm going to probably be completing DPPT slower for a little bit.

Warning: tangent alert. Also, OPINIONS!

Basically, the way I'm looking at it is: if we want to upgrade the list, I think the logs are gonna have to give aside from potentially controversial Pokemon (starters, S tiers, etc.). It just isn't feasible to talk about how Mothim or Altaria perform against the lategame with the way we've done the last few lists. Not if we want the list to release by 2023 or whenever.

DPPT is a big, BIG game. Platinum has some of the hardest fights in the series which basically force you to visit most optional areas for the first five gyms (the level spike with Wake is a little crazy to me), especially because said first five gyms form what is debatably the hardest front half of a Pokemon game in the entire franchise (just my opinion). Byron, Candice (to an extent) and Volkner aren't too bad, but then the difficulty is replaced by 5 million Galactic battles (complete with a very difficult final Cyrus battle) and then (in my humble view) the hardest Elite Four + Champion in the series. As a result, this game can be rather exhausting to run compared to something like BW2, which, while also a long game until credits, tends to ease up and let you use your favorites again.

I'm not trying to complain about the difficulty in Sinnoh in saying this stuff above! I'm just illustrating a contrast. Kanto is a pushover with remotely competent teambuilding, same with Johto. Hoenn needs a little more scrutiny, particularly Emerald, but it wasn't impossible to use C tiers in that game if you abused stuff like Calm Mind / Bulk Up or whatever. Black and White on - everyone knows what effect the power creep had on that with the possible exception of USUM.

Don't take the above as me saying Platinum is a bad game: it's a great game! And Diamond and Pearl aren't hard but going back to play them roughly 15 years later is...

...let's not get into specifics there.

What I mean by the above is you can't exactly run C-tier or below teams as effectively as you can in other games, at least in Platinum. It also doesn't help Bibarel is more or less a requirement for HMs unless you are really patient, and thus five mons will be the norm for all but the most dedicated of players.

What do I mean by all this?

-Long game to run
-Difficult battles also nudge players toward the higher tiers despite a varied Dex in Platinum
-HMs objectively cut into the efficiency we can run this game
-Have to actively account for the level curve more than other games
-Some other fifth thing

Basically I think we might need to take a more causal approach. Thoughts?
 
Last edited:

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
so I'd like to say that I could maybe try pushing this list to somewhere (I am waiting for more thoughts on some stuff on USUM and FRLG is mostly the same deal) by joining with my own test runs. With that said, there are a few caveats:

- I tried running Platinum (casual run) before my laptop broke down a few days ago and... yeah, it wasn't pleasant. The game is bloated early-game and I couldn't A-mash my way through. I made it past Fantina before my laptop broke down

- Due to the above, I am most likely going to start using cheat codes as soon as possible (like walk through wall and hacking in items) to streamline my experience a bit. This means I may not have the most realistic view of the way a typical run would go, so I would need a lot of guidance, especially when it comes to questions like:
* when do I buy GC TMs? (I had money for one SD TM when I got to the Game Corner). How much do I penalize Pokemon for needing a GC TM? Do I penalize as much if they don't need it immediately, but would appreciate it at some point?
* what are end-game levels like? What would be acceptable there for a typical run?
(I will probably ask Drums any other questions I have if I think of such)
- I am a university student, so I may have random instances of inactivity, though I don't think it should be too bad.

as for a "casual run", we could maybe do what I did with my USUM tests and only test the fights that we think the Pokemon has a reasonble chance of performing well against and note the reasons why we skipped a fight. For example, if I am using early Meditite, I could not test it against Fantina whatsoever and explain that I think Meditite's Psychic typing and unhelpful for the fight movepool make it pretty obvious that it wouldn't do enough for me to consider the fight favorable. I could certainly test more effectively with that, given this approach allowed me to complete 10 USUM runs at once for a month or so (don't ask why I did that, had to sort out D-tier and below :good_lord:)

but yeah, as a whole, I don't mind helping out, but I will need some guidance early on in case I decide that I am too impatient and just streamline my methods and will also beg forgiveness if I make an error

(I'd also have to download Desmume again since I had to change my laptop's hard disk and didn't migrate Desmume or Platinum).
 
I think the first thing we should do is universally agree on the big battles in the game, the ones that way the most: again, basically talking Platinum specifically.

I'll describe how I value them, and others can give further input to how much weight we should give to each major battle. I'll go through and potentially list your best checks if applicable for each with my current knowledge. Gonna be using a scale of:

Irrelevant (Very exploitable, common counters run roughshod over them)
Pretty Easy (Has decent mons but they probably won't sweep you)
Important (Notable battle with no real holes in the team that you can easily exploit)
Threatening (Potential for a total party kill, just not on the level of Champion)
Champion (Hardest fights in the game by far)

Barry
Really only notable from Canalave onwards, and even then...I honestly think we could skip testing Barry as a whole if only for convenience. The Staravia and second stage starter are the only things of note in the Hearthome and Pastoria fights, making him roughly on par with a midgame Ace Trainer (Near Jubilife fight is also pretty pointless as most members won't be around for it).

Heck, even the Canalave stuff really isn't even THAT scary.

Aqua Jet Floatzel? Easily resisted Roserade? No Close Combat on Staraptor? Explotable Heracross? FIRE SPIN RAPIDASH? Meanwhile his potential Torterra has...Razor Leaf, Mega Drain, Leech Seed, and Bite. No Earthquake.

Screen Shot 2021-10-26 at 5.53.39 PM.png


The final battle at the League have competent movesets, but I also think we could exclude it for the sake of consistency. Not putting another screenshot because I want to keep this post as short as is. Currently I'm feeling...Pretty Easy.

Roark

Honestly, while not one the hardest gyms, I think this one can still be a minor challenge thanks to Cranidos literally 3HKOing anything with Headbutt. The Rock / Grounds are sorta fodder though. Typical early Rock leader in a good chunk of early stuff won't be effective. You have Machop and the starters, Geodude needs some grinding and even then likely only helps against Cranidos with Rock Throw, Budew I guess but raising a Budew is awful thanks to a friendship evo so...I'm gonna go with Pretty Easy (if only for the fact most will use a Sinnoh starter / easy workarounds).

Mars


This one is weird because the first fight is scary, the second fight is a minor speed bump, and the Double Battle is kinda pointless. I'll label the first battle Important, the other two border on Irrelevant because the average team can easily stand up to Bronzor and Golbat + ace by then. Purugly is a pain in the first fight, but you have Machop, Staravia and heck, maybe even Geodude and I don't think it's as egregious as...

Jupiter

Double battle is again Irrelevant, but that first fight could honestly go under Threatening. I almost want to say Champion, but...you have Staravia Intimidate, you most likely have 3 members at this point, it's more or less your team versus a Skuntank. Hard to stomach hits from, but it can also derp with status moves. You'll win by a hair, sure, but it's not like Mismagius (every single move is threatening). And yes I know this comes after Gardenia, putting it here because her and Mars 1 are pretty infamous early game roadblocks.

Gardenia

Deceptively difficult. You have way more counters in comparison to previous bosses (Vespiquen, Ponyta Beautifly, Monferno, Staravia) but Turtwig's Reflect and Cherrim's Leech Seed make it hard for said counters to make progress, so you mostly get by in this fight with resists or neutral matchups...which can still get chunked by Grass Knot (I think Grotle is 3HKOed and another check in Gyarados is pretty heavy). In spite of all the counters I'm honestly gonna say Important because so many physical options aren't exactly easy answers if Reflect or Stun Spore gets going.

Fantina

Champion.
Straight up, if almost only for that Mismagius. Your four checks are Floatzel with Crunch, Gyarados with Bite, Shinx line (lul) or bizarrely Toxic + Heal Order Vespiquen (guys Captivate is really reaching in my opinion, plus anything can kinda do it). Duskull screws over so many physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp and Rawst Berries are VERY out of the way under Cycling Road. Mismagius is WAY worse than Skuntank, the coverage easily hits a good 60% of your options super-effectively, and the ones that don't die instantly can't kill it back at all.

Maylene

This one's odd. You're unlikely to sweep her thanks to Lucario killing a few counters that beat her other mons, but RELATIVE to other Gym Leaders Maylene really isn't all that scary. Part of me wants to say Important but I think she's easier to roundhouse than Gardenia despite her packing Rock Tomb on two mons (mons off the top of my head who can make progress: Starly in general, Driftblim, Kadabra, Gradevoir, Machoke / Machamp (Lucario), ground types like Hippopotas / Gliscor / Gabite with Earthquake (Lucario)). Let's say Pretty Easy.

Wake


Even some of the best options for a Platinum run have trouble making progress against Waterfall Gyarados and that quick Floatzel, not to mention his high levels. Quagsire is a freebie but it's rare you'll find something that's great here that sports a lot of advantages elsewhere (pretty much any Electric like Shinx / Jolteon, Grasses struggle to win the damage war on Gyarados and Floatzel has Ice Fang). I almost wanna say Champion but the answers here are fairly straightforward as opposed to Mismagius where a few things rely on non-STAB Bite / Crunch. So we'll go Threatening (you can get resists here as opposed to Mismagius which is practically unwallable).

Cyrus
First two fights are Pretty Easy (I honestly think they could be argued for Irrelevant if Sneasel / Murkrow line didn't hit like atomic bombs) but that third fight is another Champion. Virtually impossible to sweep the Spear Pillar / Distortion World fight, though fast Electrics can really help there.

Byron

Go to Irrelevant and think about what you did. His ace's best option is friggin Metal Burst, and a typical Specs Surf user can overwhelm Magneton and Steelix. Literally every starter laughs at him, as does Staraptor, Golem, Machamp, Gliscor, Specs Surf users...you get the point. Most Waters should take one Thunderbolt from Magneton unless they suck.

Saturn

This guy is a Galactic Admin? After the first two? Both fights are Irrelevant. Not even the Toxicroak is that scary.

Candice

Yeah, she's Important. Threatening moves? Check. Evasion spam being annoying on Froslass? Check. Bulky mons in Piloswine and (if you don't hit its weaknesses) Abomasnow? Yeah. There's a few counters here (Medicham, Machamp, Empoleon, Infernape, heck even Staraptor puts in work with Close Combat) but a good few will fold to Froslass being faster and chip damage throughout the fight, and she has an answer for you if you fail to OHKO your counter to her. You could argue Pretty Easy, but not sure.

Volkner

This guy is kinda hilarious. His coverage is more scary than his actual STAB. You have multiple ways of getting past him: Ground types with Earthquake, Calm Mind users like Alakazam or Gardevoir, no less than three Water / Ground types in the game. Odds are, you should have an answer to him. Hilariously, Torterra folds to him without Rock Polish. I almost wanna say Irrelevant but we'll go Pretty Easy.

Aaron
Screen Shot 2021-10-26 at 6.43.16 PM.png

His mons in Platinum are honestly pretty threatening for a Bug type user, but he also has multiple quad-weaknesses. I almost wanted to say Important, but we'll go Pretty Easy, he's not that hard to wall outside of Heracross and this game also has Staraptor in it, lol.

Bertha

Yeah, she's Pretty Easy. Again, so many quad-weaknesses and on top of that, most of her team is pretty slow.

Flint

Almost wanted to say Threatening, but we'll go with Important since that hasn't gotten much love. Only two members have Sunny Day: Houndoom and Rapidash, so should kill them fast if possible. You're unlikely to muscle through his entire team with one mon, but despite his coverage your Ground types and Water types should still do good here, though his coverage is way scarier than anything Aaron or Bertha threw at you.

Lucian

Threatening
for sure. Not much in this game walls Psychic + Fighting coverage, Reflect + Light Screen messes up sweep attempts, and he's by far the scariest of the four with both setup and offensive pressure.

Cynthia
Champion Cynthia is Champion difficulty, this is an obvious one. Traditional counters get screwed by coverage, but unlike with the other Champion fights, I don't care too much if something loses here. Sweepers here amusingly include Dragon Dance Gyarados, Swords Dance / Rock Polish Rhyperior, and Simple Bibarel. But yeah, she's hard.

What do you all think? I rated quite a few Pretty Easy, but meh.
 
Last edited:
I apologize if the initial post seemed a little pompous. I know its two days early, but I felt like posting now because my Thursday / Friday are a bit busy and I wanted to get my thoughts on the table now.

BDSP is less than a month. Legends comes in roughly three months. I think I'm going to quietly keep this running for now and we'll play it by ear - the hype for the new releases will probably override our list for the time being, and I also wouldn't mind finishing up some of the other lists (HGSS, USUM, FRLG) while that is going on). So I'm going to probably be completing DPPT slower for a little bit.

Warning: tangent alert. Also, OPINIONS!

Basically, the way I'm looking at it is: if we want to upgrade the list, I think the logs are gonna have to give aside from potentially controversial Pokemon (starters, S tiers, etc.). It just isn't feasible to talk about how Mothim or Altaria perform against the lategame with the way we've done the last few lists. Not if we want the list to release by 2023 or whenever.

DPPT is a big, BIG game. Platinum has some of the hardest fights in the series which basically force you to visit most optional areas for the first five gyms (the level spike with Wake is a little crazy to me), especially because said first five gyms form what is debatably the hardest front half of a Pokemon game in the entire franchise (just my opinion). Byron, Candice (to an extent) and Volkner aren't too bad, but then the difficulty is replaced by 5 million Galactic battles (complete with a very difficult final Cyrus battle) and then (in my humble view) the hardest Elite Four + Champion in the series. As a result, this game can be rather exhausting to run compared to something like BW2, which, while also a long game until credits, tends to ease up and let you use your favorites again.

I'm not trying to complain about the difficulty in Sinnoh in saying this stuff above! I'm just illustrating a contrast. Kanto is a pushover with remotely competent teambuilding, same with Johto. Hoenn needs a little more scrutiny, particularly Emerald, but it wasn't impossible to use C tiers in that game if you abused stuff like Calm Mind / Bulk Up or whatever. Black and White on - everyone knows what effect the power creep had on that with the possible exception of USUM.

Don't take the above as me saying Platinum is a bad game: it's a great game! And Diamond and Pearl aren't hard but going back to play them roughly 15 years later is...

...let's not get into specifics there.

What I mean by the above is you can't exactly run C-tier or below teams as effectively as you can in other games, at least in Platinum. It also doesn't help Bibarel is more or less a requirement for HMs unless you are really patient, and thus five mons will be the norm for all but the most dedicated of players.

What do I mean by all this?

-Long game to run
-Difficult battles also nudge players toward the higher tiers despite a varied Dex in Platinum
-HMs objectively cut into the efficiency we can run this game
-Have to actively account for the level curve more than other games
-Some other fifth thing

Basically I think we might need to take a more causal approach. Thoughts?
I totally agree. I've said it before but I'll say it again - Platinum may be the only game in the franchise where you actually have to PLAN a team. Seriously, you will get rocked by Cynthia if you walk into that battle without a plan. Which is why even when I was considering doing a test run for this game, the only way to justify using lower tier mons is if you somehow compensate for it by using an extremely strong Pokémon like Infernape to carry the dead weight. This game is not kind at all to "trash" mons (I know, I know, Wormadam - Trash is ironically decent) which is why I completely understand why it will take more runs to test this game and thereby result in a longer project. I wholeheartedly support parking lotting this effort in favor of easier endeavors such as FRLG.

* when do I buy GC TMs? (I had money for one SD TM when I got to the Game Corner). How much do I penalize Pokemon for needing a GC TM? Do I penalize as much if they don't need it immediately, but would appreciate it at some point?
* what are end-game levels like? What would be acceptable there for a typical run?
(I will probably ask Drums any other questions I have if I think of such)
I can answer these due to having quite a bit of experience with Platinum especially:
- I don't think GC TMs should be nearly as penalized in this game as others. It helps that the best TMs you can buy (Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, etc.) are readily available in this game at pretty reasonable points of the game. But even if you have to buy, Platinum is extremely resource rich and you will be thrown many options to make money, from a surplus of evolutionary items you can sell, to pretty conveniently placed Amulet Coin and Luck Incense. Money was never a problem for me in this game.
- If you battle every trainer, do not use Rare Candies, use a team with a mix of Med-Slow/Med-Fast EXP mons, and maybe obtain your entire team by the fifth Gym (which isn't unreasonable given the wealth of early game options) you'll end up on average level 50 in time for the Cynthia fight. You can use that as a benchmark to gauge what levels your team might be if you decide to go with many Slow EXP mons, decide to grind a bit, etc.

Gardenia

Deceptively difficult. You have way more counters in comparison to previous bosses (Vespiquen, Ponyta Beautifly, Monferno, Staravia) but Turtwig's Reflect and Cherrim's Leech Seed make it hard for said counters to make progress, so you mostly get by in this fight with resists...which can still get chunked by Grass Knot (I think Grotle is 3HKOed and another check in Gyarados is pretty heavy). In spite of all the counters I'm honestly gonna say Important because so many physical options aren't exactly easy answers if Reflect or Stun Spore gets going.

Wake

Even some of the best options for a Platinum run have trouble making progress against Waterfall Gyarados and that quick Floatzel, not to mention his high levels. Quagsire is a freebie but it's rare you'll find something that's great here that sports a lot of advantages elsewhere (pretty much any Electric like Shinx / Jolteon, Grasses struggle to win the damage war on Gyarados and Floatzel has Ice Fang). I almost wanna say Champion but the answers here are fairly straightforward as opposed to Mismagius where a few things rely on non-STAB Bite / Crunch. So we'll go Threatening (you can get resists here as opposed to Mismagius which is practically unwallable).

Cyrus
First two fights are Pretty Easy (I honestly think they could be argued for Irrelevant if Sneasel / Murkrow line didn't hit like atomic bombs) but that third fight is another Champion. Virtually impossible to sweep the Spear Pillar / Distortion World fight, though fast Electrics can really help there.

Flint

Almost wanted to say Threatening, but we'll go with Important since that hasn't gotten much love. Only two members have Sunny Day: Houndoom and Rapidash, You're unlikely to muscle through his entire team with one mon, but despite his coverage your Ground types and Water types should still do good here, though his coverage is way scarier than anything Aaron or Bertha threw at you.
I've quoted the four fights which I disagree with because I agree with everything else.

Gardenia - Pretty Easy. You'll honestly most likely have your Flying type by this point, be it Staravia or Golbat. With it, you can shut her down pretty easily. Pluck does a real number on Roserade for multiple reasons. As threatening as Roserade might seem for this point of the game, Grass is just not a good STAB that is resisted by way too many types, and there's a good chance you might have multiple of those types by this point. I don't think this fight deserves that much weight personally.

Wake - Important. I really don't think he's even Threatening to be honest. Yes, his Gyarados and Quagsire cover the traditional weaknesses of Water but you'll most likely have an Electric type by this point, be it Jolteon or Luxray, who can handle his Gyarados and Floatzel. And Quagsire just doesn't have much offensive presence. Especially in Platinum where there's a chance you'll have a full team by this point of the game, your 6 versus Wake's 3 just doesn't make this that challenging of a fight.

Cyrus - Threatening for the third fight. He's good, but not Fantina/Cynthia levels of good. Your 6 versus his 5 gives you good odds, plus many of his Pokémon are quite fragile and will most likely go down with one SE hit if you hit them on their weaker defensive stat.

Flint - Pretty Easy. I never experienced a huge spike in difficulty between him and Aaron/Bertha. His biggest problem is that his team lacks variety in terms of counteracting Fire's worst weaknesses. Yes he has Sunny Day, but there are ways around this like your own Waters' Rain Dance or Golduck's Cloud Nine. And a good Ground type's Earthquake cleaves through him pretty easily, especially with his mons' lower physical defenses.

Anyway those are my thoughts. Otherwise I agree with pretty much every other difficulty assessment.
 
Last edited:
Jupiter

Double battle is again Irrelevant, but that first fight could honestly go under Threatening.
Champion.

That demonic Skuntank has Screech.

Candice

Yeah, she's Important. Threatening moves? Check. Evasion spam being annoying on Froslass? Check. Bulky mons in Piloswine and (if you don't hit its weaknesses) Abomasnow? Yeah. There's a few counters here (Medicham, Machamp, Empoleon, Infernape, heck even Staraptor puts in work with Close Combat) but a good few will fold to Froslass being faster and chip damage throughout the fight, and she has an answer for you if you fail to OHKO your counter to her. You could argue Pretty Easy, but not sure.
Pretty Easy.

It's nigh impossible to not have something that folds her because Ice is trash. Poor girl tries her best tho.

Gardenia

Deceptively difficult. You have way more counters in comparison to previous bosses (Vespiquen, Ponyta Beautifly, Monferno, Staravia) but Turtwig's Reflect and Cherrim's Leech Seed make it hard for said counters to make progress, so you mostly get by in this fight with resists or neutral matchups...which can still get chunked by Grass Knot (I think Grotle is 3HKOed and another check in Gyarados is pretty heavy). In spite of all the counters I'm honestly gonna say Important because so many physical options aren't exactly easy answers if Reflect or Stun Spore gets going.
Pretty Easy.

It's really hard to stop that Reflect, but her team is more annoying than a legitimate threat. Grass sucks.

You're probably better off 1v1ing Roserade tho.

Flint

Almost wanted to say Threatening, but we'll go with Important since that hasn't gotten much love. Only two members have Sunny Day: Houndoom and Rapidash, so should kill them fast if possible. You're unlikely to muscle through his entire team with one mon, but despite his coverage your Ground types and Water types should still do good here, though his coverage is way scarier than anything Aaron or Bertha threw at you.
He's free. Pretty Easy. His Fire mons ain't even that good and there's the very obvious "haha EQ go brrrrrr" counter. Just not off Torterra.

Wake - Important. I really don't think he's even Threatning to be honest. Yes, his Gyarados and Quagsire cover the traditional weaknesses of Water but you'll most likely have an Electric type by this point, be it Jolteon or Luxray, who can handle is Gyardos and Floatzel. And Quagsire just doesn't have much offensive presence. Especially in Platinum where there's a chance you'll have a full team by this point of the game, your 6 versus Wake's 3 just doesn't make this that challenging of a fight.
Waterfall Gyara tho.

I'm torn on Threatening vs Important tho. Ultimately I don't think he got the bodies to really abuse the holes Gyara can punch on your team. Also, Quag has no Brine. Ooooof.

Important, I guess.
 
Gardenia

Deceptively difficult. You have way more counters in comparison to previous bosses (Vespiquen, Ponyta Beautifly, Monferno, Staravia) but Turtwig's Reflect and Cherrim's Leech Seed make it hard for said counters to make progress, so you mostly get by in this fight with resists or neutral matchups...which can still get chunked by Grass Knot (I think Grotle is 3HKOed and another check in Gyarados is pretty heavy). In spite of all the counters I'm honestly gonna say Important because so many physical options aren't exactly easy answers if Reflect or Stun Spore gets going.
No gm leader that makes Dustox look borderline S tier can be anything more than pretty easy.

EDIT : On a completely unrelated note, how much would needing TM's factor into how viable a pokemon is and how much should what those TM's are affect it?
 
Last edited:
With Wake as well, stuff like Gardevoir and Mr. Mime and probably more have Grass/Electric coverage by that point in the game.
 
With Wake as well, stuff like Gardevoir and Mr. Mime and probably more have Grass/Electric coverage by that point in the game.
Yeah, Shock Wave is a thing. But my Zam did struggle to OHKO Floatzel IIRC at +1 (though mine had a 4 Special Attack IV at the time).

Mime isn't available that early in Platinum though. Only in Pearl can you get Mime Jr that early.

Also yeah, I probably overrated Gardenia. She's not hard but really annoying. I stand by Wake being difficult though.

No gm leader that makes Dustox look borderline S tier can be anything more than pretty easy.

EDIT : On a completely unrelated note, how much would needing TM's factor into how viable a pokemon is and how much should what those TM's are affect it?
I'd say they have a minor hinderance toward a Pokemon's ranking but nothing serious (maybe about the same as a 5% encounter rate). I loaded up my Magmortar with Flamethrower, Psychic, Focus Blast, and Thunderbolt without caring all that much - you get two freebies of those around the time you get Magmortar.
 
Last edited:
EDIT : On a completely unrelated note, how much would needing TM's factor into how viable a pokemon is and how much should what those TM's are affect it?
Depends a lot on the TM, something like say, Golbat wanting Steel Wing hardly moves the needle because it's not a super contested TM and there isn't a huge cost associated with it.

Things that require the likes of EQ on the other hand...
 
Just did Canalave through Candice today, updated thoughts on the team:

Alakazam: According to Ryota who has been running with it, Alakazam can beat Mars's Purugly so that helps it. But I had mine as a Kadabra for a while (mine evolved at level 37 due to rom settings, I don't have access to PKHex) and while it's pretty great with Psybeam, I honestly think it falls a tiny bit short of the S pedigree for a handful of issues, even if mine had a 4 Special Attack IV for the first half and wasn't Alakazam ASAP:

-It gets attacks a little later than you'd like, with Psybeam and Psychic coming at level 24 and level 40 respectively and thus likely missing Gardenia and Wake in the process unless you grind like crazy or use a GC TM for convenience respectively. It's one of the better options for Gardenia but 24 is a high benchmark to hit that early with no VS Seeker. It can still put in work for Wake but Floatzel is quite problematic if you don't OHKO (Crunch + Aqua Jet picks you off). I think with more firepower mine could have beaten Wake though, but I can't speak on that angle as that was before I checked my IVs.

-Only shows its face for Jupiter and Fantina's fodder and avoids their aces, which are some of the hardest foes in the game.

-Focus Blast usage happens a few times as you transition toward lategame. Amusingly Alakazam smashes Byron with Specs Psychic (Magneton and Steelix are 2HKOed) and Bastiodon is the least threatening ace in the game, so that's not that bad. But then you have small things like Cyrus and Candice's Sneasel, Admin Bronzors that show up every now and then to pester Zam (it needs Focus Blast + Shock Wave to OHKO Bronzor FYI, not too bad but Focus Blast is not something I'm fond of for an S tier).

Now I know what you're thinking. Alakazam uses Focus Blast arguably even more in HGSS and it was still S tier there. Alright, that's a fair point. I can accept that. But I still think the issues above are issues.

While there's no doubt in my mind Zam will trash Volkner, I'm just not sure right now. For Candice, Zam has to do some weird stuff like come in on Froslass with Mind Plate (unless you want to Focus Blast Sneasel - if you miss Faint Attack + Ice Shard kills you) and Calm Mind to OHKO Froslass, Abomasnow, and Piloswine with +1 Psychic (btw Specs Psychic leaves them alive).

It's pretty self-sufficient with minor TM investment so it's very close to the S pedigree. I just think the handful of small issues make me hesitate on S. And the League doesn't look super amazing either. A for now, could change my mind.

Piplup
: Piplup has obscene “Magikarp Power” in that anything pre-Surf it’s not really useful at all unless you do some really unorthodox stuff (have fun with Bide on three aces), but when you get Choice Specs Empoleon with Surf you FEEL the upgrade in power, even more if you have Torrent going. Pretty clear B tier, that pre-Empoleon phase feels like a C but the resistances and power as Empoleon FINALLY turn it into a consistently usable Pokemon.

Driftloon: Yeah this is borderline C / D. The wait for Shadow Ball at level 44 feels like forever away and it consistently isn't anything special in bosses after Maylene. It's a decent damage dealer but those weaknesses blow chunks.

Magmortar: Feels almost exactly like Magnezone in that it's a late B tier. Gets going fast and Flamethrower is all you need more or less, coverage is pretty superfluous.

Porygon / Porygon2: With Download this is the easiest A tier you will ever see. If you have questions about why this is, just look at the "bad" Byron matchup:

Porygon2 (41): Choice Specs. Choice Specs Signal Beam looks like rolls to 2HKO Magneton with a Download boost (you outspeed) while Thunderbolt might not even 3HKO you (!) You look like you 3HKO Steelix with Signal Beam while it I think 4HKOs with Earthquake (healing item means it beats you but I got it to red again). You seem to get the Download boost on any member which is handy. Specs Discharge wrecks the crap out of Bastiodon - it would straight up be a 2HKO *with a neutral move* if not for Sitrus Berry. Porygon2 is so broken that even in the matchups it SHOULD NOT do good in, it does good in. This is ridiculous.

Candice was pretty much the first boss to completely block it. Other than that it's been absolutely stellar. If you can trade to evolve it, HARD reccommend.
 
Just did Canalave through Candice today, updated thoughts on the team:

Alakazam: According to Ryota who has been running with it, Alakazam can beat Mars's Purugly so that helps it. But I had mine as a Kadabra for a while (mine evolved at level 37 due to rom settings, I don't have access to PKHex) and while it's pretty great with Psybeam, I honestly think it falls a tiny bit short of the S pedigree for a handful of issues, even if mine had a 4 Special Attack IV for the first half and wasn't Alakazam ASAP:

-It gets attacks a little later than you'd like, with Psybeam and Psychic coming at level 24 and level 40 respectively and thus likely missing Gardenia and Wake in the process unless you grind like crazy or use a GC TM for convenience respectively. It's one of the better options for Gardenia but 24 is a high benchmark to hit that early with no VS Seeker. It can still put in work for Wake but Floatzel is quite problematic if you don't OHKO (Crunch + Aqua Jet picks you off). I think with more firepower mine could have beaten Wake though, but I can't speak on that angle as that was before I checked my IVs.

-Only shows its face for Jupiter and Fantina's fodder and avoids their aces, which are some of the hardest foes in the game.

-Focus Blast usage happens a few times as you transition toward lategame. Amusingly Alakazam smashes Byron with Specs Psychic (Magneton and Steelix are 2HKOed) and Bastiodon is the least threatening ace in the game, so that's not that bad. But then you have small things like Cyrus and Candice's Sneasel, Admin Bronzors that show up every now and then to pester Zam (it needs Focus Blast + Shock Wave to OHKO Bronzor FYI, not too bad but Focus Blast is not something I'm fond of for an S tier).

Now I know what you're thinking. Alakazam uses Focus Blast arguably even more in HGSS and it was still S tier there. Alright, that's a fair point. I can accept that. But I still think the issues above are issues.

While there's no doubt in my mind Zam will trash Volkner, I'm just not sure right now. For Candice, Zam has to do some weird stuff like come in on Froslass with Mind Plate (unless you want to Focus Blast Sneasel - if you miss Faint Attack + Ice Shard kills you) and Calm Mind to OHKO Froslass, Abomasnow, and Piloswine with +1 Psychic (btw Specs Psychic leaves them alive).

It's pretty self-sufficient with minor TM investment so it's very close to the S pedigree. I just think the handful of small issues make me hesitate on S. And the League doesn't look super amazing either. A for now, could change my mind.

Piplup
: Piplup has obscene “Magikarp Power” in that anything pre-Surf it’s not really useful at all unless you do some really unorthodox stuff (have fun with Bide on three aces), but when you get Choice Specs Empoleon with Surf you FEEL the upgrade in power, even more if you have Torrent going. Pretty clear B tier, that pre-Empoleon phase feels like a C but the resistances and power as Empoleon FINALLY turn it into a consistently usable Pokemon.

Driftloon: Yeah this is borderline C / D. The wait for Shadow Ball at level 44 feels like forever away and it consistently isn't anything special in bosses after Maylene. It's a decent damage dealer but those weaknesses blow chunks.

Magmortar: Feels almost exactly like Magnezone in that it's a late B tier. Gets going fast and Flamethrower is all you need more or less, coverage is pretty superfluous.

Porygon / Porygon2: With Download this is the easiest A tier you will ever see. If you have questions about why this is, just look at the "bad" Byron matchup:

Porygon2 (41): Choice Specs. Choice Specs Signal Beam looks like rolls to 2HKO Magneton with a Download boost (you outspeed) while Thunderbolt might not even 3HKO you (!) You look like you 3HKO Steelix with Signal Beam while it I think 4HKOs with Earthquake (healing item means it beats you but I got it to red again). You seem to get the Download boost on any member which is handy. Specs Discharge wrecks the crap out of Bastiodon - it would straight up be a 2HKO *with a neutral move* if not for Sitrus Berry. Porygon2 is so broken that even in the matchups it SHOULD NOT do good in, it does good in. This is ridiculous.

Candice was pretty much the first boss to completely block it. Other than that it's been absolutely stellar. If you can trade to evolve it, HARD reccommend.
I cosign Zam as A in this game. Even if you look at the five fights we just designated as Champion/Threatening (Cynthia, Fantina, first Jupiter, Lucian, third Cyrus) Zam's matchups in those fights alone in no way justifies an S tier placement in my opinion.

I think Drifblim is C but it really just needs the Shadow Ball TM. I can't imagine waiting till level 44 without it. Agree with Magmortar as B.

As for Porygon, I would personally be surprised if it sustained an A tier performance through the end of the game. Its biggest problem to me is lack of usable STAB. Download is cool and all but I don't think it makes up for lack of a great STAB move. It's sort of relying on its plethora of non-STAB coverage moves which kind of undercuts its offensive prowess. I would personally see Porygon 2 as a B tier mon and perhaps Porygon Z as A tier, kind of like Kadabra and Zam in B and A, respectively, to a slightly lesser degree.

This is especially considering you're ranking Empoleon as B (who I personally think is A). I would be surprised if Porygon 2 sustained a performance warranting a higher placement than Empoleon.
 
I cosign Zam as A in this game. Even if you look at the five fights we just designated as Champion/Threatening (Cynthia, Fantina, first Jupiter, Lucian, third Cyrus) Zam's matchups in those fights alone in no way justifies an S tier placement in my opinion.

I think Drifblim is C but it really just needs the Shadow Ball TM. I can't imagine waiting till level 44 without it. Agree with Magmortar as B.

As for Porygon, I would personally be surprised if it sustained an A tier performance through the end of the game. Its biggest problem to me is lack of usable STAB. Download is cool and all but I don't think it makes up for lack of a great STAB move. It's sort of relying on its plethora of non-STAB coverage moves which kind of undercuts its offensive prowess. I would personally see Porygon 2 as a B tier mon and perhaps Porygon Z as A tier, kind of like Kadabra and Zam in B and A, respectively, to a slightly lesser degree.

This is especially considering you're ranking Empoleon as B (who I personally think is A). I would be surprised if Porygon 2 sustained a performance warranting a higher placement than Empoleon.
Yeah I don't think Empoleon is A sadly.

Like I know the other starters don't dominate up to lategame either, but Prinplup is underwhelming even by those standards. Literally 3 matchups (Skunk, Mismagius, Lucario) make you rely on Bide, and while it does beat them when was the last time you considered Bide over STAB?

It really does pull up the punch with Specs Surf though, but I don't think that makes up for how much Prinplup is just kinda there after Mars (it can actually win there with early BubbleBeam if you hold off on evo).

In Porygon2's case, yeah I can see where you're coming from! No STAB until level 51 does suck. But I implore you to use it if you can somehow evolve it sometime. A pure Normal type may not seem like much, but Specs with +1 from Download is truly ridiculous.

Here's some logs:

Maylene:
Porygon2 (33, Trace): Psybeam 2HKOs Meditite, it 2HKOs you and you lose. You 2HKO Machoke who can derp with Focus Energy. Lucario stops you cold with a 2HKO while you do nothing.

Porygon2 (33, Download): You always get the Special Attack boost on Meditite, but Psybeam can miss the roll to OHKO so go Signal Beam instead. Psybeam OHKOs Machoke. You take Lucario to around half HP (likely 3HKO) with Psybeam then die via 2HKO.

Barry Pastoria:
Porygon2 (35): Get a Special Attack boost and plow through Staravia with Psybeam. Ponyta is 2HKOed by Psybeam and Grotle is OHKOed by Signal Beam, as is Buizel. They struggle to break your bulk.

Wake:
Porygon2 (36): Download gives you a Special Attack boost while Waterfall 3HKOs you. Agility into Shock Wave OHKOs Gyarados and even lets me outspeed and Floatzel (!) while 2HKOing Quagsire. Astonishing sweep, you can maybe even afford a Waterfall flinch. I even 2HKOed Floatzel with Signal Beam in spite of Sitrus Berry 1v1.

Cyrus 1:
Porygon2 (38): No item. The first fight Porygon is NOT good for! You 2HKO Sneasel and Golbat with the respective moves, and when I finished them I was in red and badly poisoned. After switching out to heal, not even +1 Signal Beam OHKOed Murkrow. They just chip you down too much, particularly Sneasel.

Barry 4: Barry Harder
Porygon2 (40): No item. Wanted to use Agility here. Gave it Psychic via TM to bring the power up to the rest of its moves. Staraptor gives you a Special Attack boost and outspeeds but you kill it with Discharge. Heracross dies to Psychic while Rapidash lives in low yellow and does nothing. Torterra is not OHKOed by Signal Beam but *Porygon2 lives a Overgrow-boosted critical hit Razor Leaf in red!* Now I’m at 20 HP and hilariously Floatzel does 15 with Aqua Jet and I pull a sweep out. Tested twice, both were sweeps.

Byron:
Porygon2 (41): Choice Specs. Choice Specs Signal Beam looks like rolls to 2HKO Magneton with a Download boost (you outspeed) while Thunderbolt might not even 3HKO you (!) You look like you 3HKO Steelix with Signal Beam while it I think 4HKOs with Earthquake (healing item means it beats you but I got it to red again). You seem to get the Download boost on any member which is handy. Specs Discharge wrecks the crap out of Bastiodon - it would straight up be a 2HKO *with a neutral move* if not for Sitrus Berry. Porygon2 is so broken that even in the matchups it SHOULD NOT do good in, it does good in. This is ridiculous.

Saturn 1:
Porygon2 (42): No Specs. Agility if you want as you get the Special Attack boost, +1 Discharge OHKOs Golbat and +1 Psybeam / Psychic OHKOs Croak (if you don’t Agility you should still win because Croak went Revenge once. +1 Discharge 2HKOs Bronzor.

Mars 2:
Porygon2 (42): Choice Specs. You consistently get the Attack Download boost. OHKO Golbat and 2HKO the others with Specs Discharge. Slash crits hurt but you also have 30% paralysis on your side. The Purugly 2HKO looks pretty darn close too, but I nailed it in all three attempts and swept in all three attempts even with Slash critting (I think another one ends you).

Candice:
Porygon2 (44): Choice Specs. Sadly you always get the Attack Download boost on Sneasel, and you need Specs to OHKO it with Signal Beam (regular leaves it in red, but it does nothing). You outspeed Abomasnow and knock it to red with Signal Beam, but it does virtually the same damage to you if it lands Focus Blast. Blizzard from Froslass is a 3HKO while Specs Signal Beam looks to be a 4 or 5HKO based on a critical hit. I tried Shadow Ball when Piloswine came in on a separate attempt (it gives you the Special Attack boost and you 2HKO) but again Abomasnow Focus Blast stopped me. The first matchup where Porygon2 is rendered mediocre.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top