Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
So far Vespiquen has done admirably in my run. She isn't without it's flaws but she can always put up a good fight. She stomps early game and so far she has managed to stay relevant during mid to mid-late game by having good matchups against my rival and Team Galactic. The overall feel around the time of writing (after finishing Team Galactic HQ) is of a solid C type Pokemon but her performance at the E4 can change a lot. But I am confident as Aaron/Lucian and probably Cynthia look good matchups for the bee!
A lot of people mention the difficulty of getting one but honestly I don't think Female Combee is hard to get. As stated gender can be soft reseted and the odds of finding a Combee are around 32% which is not that bad. You have access to 4 Honey trees before Eterna Gym so you have some pretty good odds. In addition people nowdays are more aware of how to RNG Manipulate so you can easily do that and have a guarante encounter. It's not like a Feebas or a very far into the game Pokemon that prevents it from being viable.
This is like the third post other than mine I've seen on this thread alone to advocate for Glaceon at least D if not C tier. In fact on the last page of the old thread there is yet another argument for Glaceon deserving D tier. OP, I know it's your call and you disagree with that assessment, but hoping you'll reconsider. There seems to be quite a bit of anecdotal evidence to support this.
Not to rehash the details, but the biggest selling point for Glaceon in my opinion is winning the Cynthia Garchomp matchup 1v1. According to my analysis there are four Pokémon who can reliably do that at level 50, the other three being Gyarados, Vaporeon and Mamoswine. Feel free to correct me if you think I'm wrong.
I can see a scenario where someone opts not to choose Gyarados or Vaporeon as their Water type in this game, which is fairly common to do in favor of say for example Gastrodon, Floatzel or Emploeon. In which case Glaceon becomes one of two real options to counter Cynthia's Garchomp since many will opt not to double up on Water types.
Anyway, if OP still disagrees that's fine. Just thought to make this point one last time since a few others seem to agree.
I'm not currently testing Glaceon but I can say what my usual strategy is against Fantina and how I found Eevee to be useful.
If I have 4-5 Pokémon by that point of the game (not unreasonable in Platinum) the idea is to use my weaker mons against Duskull and Haunter to save the big guns for Mismagius. I think a good strategy against Mismagius is a male Staravia using Captivate and Plucking its Berry, setting up a Grotle, Luxio, or Gligar using their 60 BP Dark type moves to finish it off.
Meanwhile, I've found Eevee to be useful against Haunter. In the scenario I'll describe, Haunter's only way of damaging Eevee is through Confuse Ray. This gives Eevee ample opportunity to set up (in order) six Sand Attacks and six Growls to heavily hamper Haunter. Which clears the way for something like Prinplup, Buizel or Shellos to take Haunter down since those mons won't be doing anything against Mismagius anyway on account of Magical Leaf. Eevee can't do anything in this battle as far dealing damage (level 29 for Bite is too much to ask) but I've found its support versus Haunter to be pretty useful.
Anyway these might be considered too advanced for a casual player, but my point is Eevee isn't as dead weight in this infamous battle as it might appear.
It also cannot hit Ghosts without Bite. Automatic L.
With Maylene being the next boss, which is also pretty much unfeasible, the Eevee period when its stats aren't still straight-up bad is looking a bit rough.
By Wake, I already expect it to struggle fairly hard because of its stats.
Glaceon itself might get some mileage, but the thing about it is that it'll either be struggling to catch up as an Eevee, or it'll be benched and will need to catch up as a Glaceon.
That is the core of the issue. When can we reasonably expect Glaceon to be at full steam? Depending on how many matchups it gets to contribute to, and how well it does in them, I can accept it at D.
Way too much. That's not even counting the blatant RNG stall.
It also cannot hit Ghosts without Bite. Automatic L.
With Maylene being the next boss, which is also pretty much unfeasible, the Eevee period when its stats aren't still straight-up bad is looking a bit rough.
By Wake, I already expect it to struggle fairly hard because of its stats.
Glaceon itself might get some mileage, but the thing about it is that it'll either be struggling to catch up as an Eevee, or it'll be benched and will need to catch up as a Glaceon.
That is the core of the issue. When can we reasonably expect Glaceon to be at full steam? Depending on how many matchups it gets to contribute to, and how well it does in them, I can accept it at D.
In my experience I've found Eevee to start to lag around Canalave City (i.e. low to mid thirties with a full party of six). After this point you have to actively fish favorable matchups for it and it becomes a burden.
I should point out that whoever does a formal test of Glaceon should only use an Adaptability Eevee with Secret Power. It's simply unviable otherwise.
As someone who is currenty using Glaceon I also found Eevee dropping off about Canalave, and even then it was still usable. Just took a lot of damage, which was not a good combination with usually moving second.
Okay, I finished my run I started back at the tail end of March. I used Turtwig, Starly, Shellos, Croagunk, and Magnemite.
I'm sorry guys but this mon isn't A, at least not definitively. Mine was Modest but the damage output wasn't an issue for me. It was pretty much everything else.
Turtwig is a B-tier Pokémon. Turtwig performances fall into many categories:
-Dominant, no problems (Roark, Mars 1, Maylene, Byron).
-Folds almost completely (Jupiter 1, Wake, literally all of the 5 lategame Galactic fights)
-Curse dependent, likely doesn’t sweep (Gardenia, Fantina)
-Rock Polish is absolutely required to sweep (Volkner, Flint)
-Meh (Candice, Aaron, Lucian, Bertha as it KOs itself, Cynthia).
Roark (14): Absorb 2HKOs Geodude (red) and Onix (right at yellow) while Razor Leaf OHKOs Geodude, leaves Onix in red. Onix and Cranidos outspeed you: Cranidos’s Headbutt seems to 3HKO while your Razor Leaf leaves it in red. Really, it all depends on if flinch RNG likes you; excellent otherwise. Absorb use on Onix can prevent him from using a Potion and wasting time. Best to Absorb, then Razor Leaf Cranidos on Turtwig.
Mars 1 (18): Tackle 3HKOs Zubat who does almost nothing with Leech Life. After a Curse, Grotle can even 2HKO Purugly with Razor Leaf (it's a range though), impressively. A nearby Pecha Berry can mitigate Zubat’s Toxic, but you have to get through 2 rounds of it not using Toxic. Razor Leaf unboosted seems to be a rough 3HKO, but your chances to crit means you should come out on top even without boosting. Curse just makes it even easier, and I won even taking Fake Out damage.
Gardenia (22): Two uses of Curse lets you 3HKO Turtwig even with Reflect up, though unfortunately it gets you to half HP in the process. Reflect should wear off as Turtwig faints. Roserade comes out and misses Stun Spore, and then Grass Knot takes me to red while I 2HKO. Cherrim does like 12-13 damage or so, so a Super Potion will be necessary to clean sweep. Second attempt showed paralysis can easily screw you over if you’re unlucky enough, and pretty much cemented the fact you will likely need a Super Potion. Okay, but slow.
Jupiter (22): Wing Attack does roughly 20 of your 67 HP and is thus a 4HKO, while you barely manage to 2HKO Zubat with Bite.
I don’t see how you’re winning against Skunktank ever without massive boosts, and even then he can crit you. Skunktank does roughly the same as Zubat’s SE Wing Attack with Night Slash and is thus also a a 4HKO, while you deal pitiful damage in return. You might get him to Sitrus Berry range but you’re not winning this ever.
Fantina (27): Grotle OHKOed Duskull after a Curse with Bite, with Will-O-Wisp being negated by the Rawst Berry near Cycling Road. +1 Bite puts Mismagius in red (mid-yellow after Sitrus Berry). though Shadow Ball seems like a rough 2HKO (I lived the second at 5 HP). Amusingly, after a Potion, I tanked Shadow Claw (did like 7 damage lol) and OHKOed Haunter.
So +1 Curse on Duskull (you still outspeed) and then deal with Mismagius. You will need some luck though.
Bite knocks Duskull and Haunter to red unboosted. Actually you OHKO Haunter unboosted on rolls. You are not 1v1ing Mismagius - it lives two unboosted Bites and Confuse Ray can cripple you hard if you are unlucky. This is case with boosting too, but she seemed to prefer Shadow Ball there.
Barry (#3) (sacks for Intimidate) (27): Grotle can switch in on Roselia and Curse a few times (Staravia is a no with Intimidate and Double Team). Thankfully, even if Roselia paralyzes you, that means she can’t poison you with Poison Sting (which does nothing). The problem is Staravia absolutely needs to be dead already, because Endeavor and Wing Atack kinda screw you over.
Grotle can also Curse twice on Buizel and Mega Drain HP back, though it doesn’t OHKO (obviously Razor Leaf likely would). Monferno comes in and Leers me to +1 Defense, but even then Flame Wheel does like 20 of my 83 HP, while I 2HKO with Razor Leaf (seems to be damage ranges). Roselia comes in and is OHKOed by +2 Bite. Good, but Staravia must be dead first basically.
Maylene (34): Torterra's Earthquake fails to OHKO Meditite but is a range to OHKO Lucario (ugh). You’re better off with Water Pulse to 2HKO Machoke. Shaky sweep due to chip damage and potential Force Palm paralysis. Machoke usually goes for Focus Energy and dies. Only Lucario outspeeds you. Really, this matchup depends on your Lucario luck: you pray it Drain Punches and you pray you roll the EQ range (though that might be my Modest nature).
Pastoria Barry (34): Sadly even with a sack, +2 Bite does not OHKO Staravia (really?) Monferno dies to EQ, though you’ll likely be at critical HP now so Roselia will revenge you. Buizel dies lol.
Wake (37): Aside from Quagisre I don't see what you're effectively killing here.
Cyrus 1 I don't have logs for, as I thought he was borderline irrelevant with unevolved mons. Regardless, it's not like Torterra is going to do much besides maybe kill Sneasel with Earthquake.
Barry Canalave (40): Eats Flame Wheel then destroys Infernape. Floatzel dies to Razor Leaf and Roserade is surprisingly OHKOed by Earthquake.
Byron (41): Earthquake OHKOs Magneton. Earthquake 2HKOs Steelix but Ice Fang doesn’t even 2HKO so you’re safe (and it can derp with Sandstorm). Bastiodon is OHKOed by Earthquake. You outspeed everything.
Saturn 1 (42): Toxicroak is the only real target and is OHKOed by Earthquake.
Mars 2 (42): Purugly is the only real target and is 2HKOed by Earthquake.
Candice (43): Soft Sand. Surprisingly okay. Sneasel’s Ice Shard only does 1/3 but Torterra must have Soft Sand to OHKO with Earthquake. You outspeed and OHKO Piloswine with Wood Hammer.
Cyrus 2 (46): Soft Sand. Sneasel is OHKOed by Earthquake (it only seems interested in using Screech).
Saturn 2 (46): Soft Sand. Eat Toxicroak’s X-Scissor (3HKO) and OHKO back with Earthquake.
Cyrus 3 (46): Miracle Seed. No. Your best bet is 2HKOing Gyarados with Wood Hammer while it 2HKOs you with Ice Fang (impressive though as this counts Intimidate).
Volkner (49): Soft Sand. Man, this mon. You can Curse on Jolteon, you kill it…Signal Beam from Raichu drops you to yellow…then Luxray and Electivire chip you down and kill you. Seriously?
Much better with Rock Polish, use it once, then Earthquake to OHKO everything.
Barry Final (51): Soft Sand. Floatzel 3HKOs with Ice Fang but you put yourself in critical range with Wood Hammer. You can maybe OHKO Infernape but you might not live a Flamethrower (I lived at 4 HP, it can OHKO on rolls). Fantastic for Snorlax, as Torterra 2HKOs with Earthquake while taking nothing in return. You likely take nothing from Roserade and OHKO back with Earthquake. The others are simply not worth it.
Aaron (54): Soft Sand. You eat Ice Fang from Drapion (2HKO) then OHKO back with Earthquake. Interestingly you outspeed and 2HKO Scizor with Earthquake as it 2HKOs with X-Scissor, so you come out on top.
Bertha (54): Miracle Seed. The closest you get to a sweep is Wood Hammer on Whiscash, Gliscor comes out and Ice Fangs you before you KO yourself with Wood Hammer recoil to take Gliscor to red. From full, you OHKO Hippowdon, Golem, and Rhyperior, but KO yourself from the recoil of the last one.
Flint (54): Soft Sand. You can live Houndoom’s Flamethrower, Rock Polish and sweep with Earthquake, but there is a chance Flareon can Quick Attack you as it comes out second and ruin it if you are low enough.
Lucian (55): Soft Sand. OHKOs Mime assuming no screens. You and Espeon 2HKO each other, you come out on top if you can Rock Polish on Mime. Then Bronzong comes in and you’re forced out. Alakazam 2HKOs you with Psychic and you OHKO back with Earthquake. Surprisingly handy for Gallade, you 2HKO with Earthquake and it seems to miss the 3HKO with Psycho Cut. Decent.
Cynthia (56): Soft Sand. 2HKOs Spiritomb with Earthquake as it 3HKOs with Silver Wind. Earthquake OHKOs Roserade and I THINK it 2HKOs with Sludge Bomb. Milotic Ice Beams you and you die. Garchomp sounds good until you realize it outspeeds and 2HKOs with Flamethrower and you barely 3HKO it with Earthquake. If you setup 2 Swords Dances and 1 Rock Polish you can sweep Cynthia if Torterra lands Stone Edge on Togekiss, though crits and omniboost RNG can ruin this if Spiritomb gets either. Lucario will potentially revenge you with ExtremeSpeed last unless you heal. Still pretty inefficient.
Turtwig starts out fine. I don't like how long it takes to get to Razor Leaf (level 13, in comparison to Chimchar's level 7 for Ember and Piplup's level 8 for Bubble) but that's admittedly fairly minor. It beats Roark fine, then beats Mars with Curse Grotle...then it enters the earlygame slump. Gardenia needs at least two uses of Curse, a Super Potion and level 22 for Bite. Level 22 isn't too hard to reach, sure, but I think I remember Volt not getting Bite in time in a previous playthrough. I guess you could say "oh, it folds to Skunktank, everything folds to Skunktank!" and while that may be true, Grotle is a mon that sees pretty much everything outside of Tackle resisted by Skunktank whereas the other two starters, while not faring much better, at least hit it neutrally with their STAB moves.
Fantina is again a notably difficult matchup similar to Jupiter, and while Grotle fairs better here, it is still not an out and out win. Per damage calcs via enemy stats from this document:
Mismagius can miss the 2HKO, yes, but at the same time remember Sitrus Berry will take Mismagius out of Bite's 2HKO range and it will get in 3 hits before you do because of higher Speed.
Maylene is pretty easy because you’re likely to have Torterra at that point, not much to say. So right now we have three wins, one outright loss (Jupiter), and two heavily meh matchups in Gardenia and Fantina. It might not sound that bad yet.
And then it goes downhill.
Wake is such a chore for Torterra you should really just pick off Quagsire and be done with it. It’s not a win, but it’s one mon, right guys? This is the start of a problem that will haunt Torterra for the rest of its existence: limited targets in bosses. I would also say Wake is one of the hardest bosses in the game, so folding to both Gyarados and Floatzel really isn’t good. It doesn’t help Cyrus happens next, where your only real target is tanking Sneasel and OHKOing it. But hey, next we have Byron, which is easy for literally everything. This is really your last respite before the lategame COMPLETELY craps on Torterra.
It truly sets in with the Galactic Admins at the lakes, where Torterra is limited to picking off their aces, which, unlike earlier in the game, really aren’t that scary anymore, more or less equivalent to an Ace Trainer. However, Torterra is rendered ineffective by both Golbat and Bronzor in both matches, which holds true for Saturn’s rematch, where you once again take out just Toxicroak. They might be minibuses, sure, but an inability to sweep once again takes away the momentum Torterra has struggled to hang onto consistently. Next comes Candice, which you can take out Sneasel and Piloswine and then die to the others. Better than on paper but not by much.
Now for the Galactic stuff again. Torterra beats Cyrus’s Sneasel in the second battle and once more sits out the others. Against the final Cyrus battle (one of the biggest battles in the game) Torterra is once more limited to Wood Hammering Gyarados once to take it to half, and then dying. It doesn’t even show its face vs the other four members.
It’s this period - Lake Valor through the Distortion World - which seals my opinion on Torterra. Next comes Volkner, who, despite being an Electric leader, you actually LOSE TO unless you go and TM Rock Polish on, thanks to Raichu’s Signal Beam. Sure, it may be free to TM on and not long to acquire, but it’s also out of the way (Eterna side of Mt. Coronet post Rock Smash and Strength). I can very easily see a new player missing this - heck, I had to look it up. You sweep with Rock Polish, but this only highlights how slow Torterra is.
The League is...okay, nothing great. You're mostly limited to 1v1ing a couple threats (Aaron, Lucian, and Cynthia). Bertha is okay but Gliscor will generally stop you from sweeping outright. Flint, yes you can sweep with Rock Polish, but much to my bemusement even this might need a healing item - if you are low on HP Flareon can and will pick you off with Quick Attack.
Rock Polish also brings up another issue with Torterra: 4MMS. This mon wants Razor Leaf (reliable attack, no recoil), Curse, Wood Hammer (power) Rock Tomb / Rock Slide / Stone Edge (flyers), Earthquake, Rock Polish, and even Swords Dance if you want an (unreliable) shot at sweeping Cynthia. Torterra may have a lot of options, but that's not necessarily a pro in generations before reusable TMs. And that's not even getting into niche options like Crunch, Leech Seed, Giga Drain (primarily so you can beat Bertha without KOing yourself), or Reflect / Light Screen. I generally ran Earthquake / Crunch / Wood Hammer / buffing move from midgame onward. 4MSS isn't a SEVERE issue, but compared to the other starters who are way more reliable with generally unresisted STAB, it's rather noticeable.
It just feels like every time you can make this mon work, you have to jump through so many annoying hoops to do so. Chances are, if it's not completely rolling over a matchup or picking off the small stuff, you're going to need to buff. And that is a problem. Before Torterra, Grotle needs buffs to overcoming the typical Grass type failings. After Torterra, the defensive type gets in your way so often I almost never wanted to bother.
I don't necessarily see Turtwig as impossible to be in A, but it certainly has no place among the premiere sweepers of Sinnoh, like Magnezone (more on this later), Infernape, or Staraptor. What do all these mons have in common? They don't really need to buff much to be relevant. In-game is all about fast offense, and if you don't have fast offense you need a stellar offensive typing / Ability. Part Ground typing is great for Torterra, it's just unfortunate it's in the region where some of the hardest opponents in the game nuke it or are just immune to Earthquake. I think B is a lot more fitting for it. Every time it looks like you're going to get on a roll with it, a bad matchup is right around the corner, and it makes it so darn hard to consistently judge.
This is my biggest issue with Turtwig: the lack of consistency. Yes, Piplup and Chimchar aren't exactly mega consistent in the midgame either. But once you evolve with both, you get reliable Choice Specs or mixed nukes, with minimal negative matchups for either (maybe one apiece after evolving). What do you get with Torterra? A rut, at least until Volkner. I would be just fine with Turtwig if upon final evolution / post-Wake, there are almost no issues.
If you've read all of this, thank you. I don't want to blindly hate on Turtwig because "lol Grass starter." And yes, Platinum is a lot harder than other games, I get it. But B is by no means a terrible tier, and I implore you to consider my reasons before you say B or A. I can see it going either way almost, but Turtwig, in conclusion, feels like a moderately good mon you have to pick and choose your battles with.
I went in expecting an A tier, but after the fact, I honestly agree with S tier. The Staravia period isn't all that great, and nor is the League (2HKO from both sides, generally) but it isn't enough to hold back this mon. I could be open to A, but really, I can't think of much outright BETTER than Starly at this point in time, so for now, S it is, especially since it can contribute for Byron, Candice, and Vollkner despite having no place being there on type alone. Mine was Adamant but honestly I think that didn't effect my opinion a whole lot. The bird is busted.
C tier by the skin of its teeth. Water Pulse is strong early but multiple early bosses being difficult mean this is only really relevant for routes. Once it gets Choice Specs Surf, it is generally relevant for the rest of the game, albeit still rather slow. I can totally see D on this, primarily due to the lack of firepower, but it's not so much that Gastrodon is bad in a vacuum as this game has a lot of random Grass coverage to ruin its day (example: Lucian's Alakazam / Gallade).
MAN THIS THING IS GOOD! Okay, this blew all of my expectations out of the water. Caught at a relatively decent level, comes with a couple routes of swimmers to get to Discharge at 40 (though I honestly don't knock it for using Thunderbolt, as why WOULDN'T you give it to an Electric type) and from there Magnezone demolishes. I mean for crying out loud, you can 2HKO things that resist you like Magneton and Roserade with Specs Thunderbolt, or heck, LIVE HERACROSS'S CLOSE COMBAT ON ROLLS and OHKO back (on rolls but STILL). The reasons for B tier include its late joining time and questionable League contributions but I assure you, USE THIS POKEMON! It is EXCEPTIONALLY relevant from Byron to Volkner, and even past that, it's still able to contribute by picking off some things. One of the best Choice Specs users in the game, was super fun and reliable. Hope someone tries this or Magmar out soon, because it really is that good. So yeah, B tier.
I wanna talk about this thing even more than Magnemite! This is low-key slept on.
Maylene (34): Fist Plate. Confusion from Meditite knocks Crogunk to red, but boosted Revenge + Sucker Punch 2HKOs it. You and Machoke 3HKO each other with Brick Break and Strength respectively (it looks like Black Sludge closes the gap from a 2HKO, but Fist Plate makes the 3HKO more certain, though I seem to nail it regardless). Either way though, you should come out on top.
Believe it or not, if Lucario goes for Metal Claw to 2HKO you, you straight up OHKO back with Revenge, no Fist Plate needed it seems.
You can likely only take on one of the three though. I took Machoke and Lucario at 1 HP after Metal Claw once, but I doubt it’ll work consistently. Taking Lucario on 1v1 is very good though. Solid.
Pastoria Barry (34): Staravia OHKOs you so don’t bother. Solid for Roselia and Buizel. Two boosted Revenges kill Roselia, and one boosted Revenge kills Buizel (used Black Sludge).
With Fist Plate, boosted Revenge knocks Monferno to yellow, though Dry Skin ensures your defeat via Flame Wheel 2HKO. Decent.
Wake (38): Borderline braindead with Dry Skin: he spams Water moves that never touch Toxicroak. Even if you don’t boost up to +6 via Swords Dance, +2 Poison Jab puts Gyarados in red. Even if he switches in Quagsire on Poison Jab, that and +2 Brick Break kill it.
Despite the fact Gyarados comes in and puts you back at +1, Poison Jab still 2HKOs. +1 Jab knocks Floatzel to mid-yellow from Sitrus, and a Sucker Punch OHKOs it. Definitely worth the ability hunt.
Also, you outspeed Quagsire even after a Mud Shot. Really, you have to try to lose in this matchup if you have Swords Dance.
Again, didn't get Cyrus 1 logs, but you can probably beat Sneasel there.
Canalave Barry (40): Black Sludge. Swords Dance on Heracross (Aerial Ace 3HKOs, you outspeed) then OHKO with Poison Jab. Floatzel gives you Dry Skin HP then you OHKO. Roserade is outsped and OHKOed.
Byron (40): Fist Plate. Good, but you need some luck. Magneton 2HKOs, but can use a pointless debuff instead. So you SD for free and OHKO it. Steelix is a roll to OHKO but if you are at full HP you can live an Earthquake too, so it goes both ways. Bastiodon dies to +2 Brick Break easily.
Saturn 1 (40): Fist Plate. Annoying. +2 Sucker Punch 2HKOs Golbat, and while Air Cutter is a 3HKO crits and Supersonic confusion can happen in 3 turns. Saturn’s Toxicroak lives two uses of Brick Break and boosted Revenge brings the pain (brought me to red from low green). Without boosts, Brick Break 2HKOs Bronzor who does nothing with Gyro Ball.
Mars 2 (41): Fist Plate. +2 Sucker Punch 2HKOs Golbat, and while Air Cutter is a 3HKO crits and Supersonic confusion can happen in 3 turns. Yeah it’s the same as Saturn. If you get past Golbat however Bronzor dies to +2 Brick Break, Even unboosted Brick Break seems to OHKO Purugly, much to my surprise, though Hypnosis sucks (Slash doesn’t threaten but crits can hurt).
Candice (43): Fist Plate. Surprisingly good. Dry Skin is comical for Abomasnow, you can boost up to +4 if you want. Froslass gets Sucker Punched. Starting from the top though, you can Swords Dance on Sneasel as Aerial Ace 3HKOs, then OHKO it at Piloswine. Most importantly, Froslass comes out BEFORE Abomasnow, meaning no Snow Cloak. Brick Break Amomasnow to kill.
Cyrus 2 (46): Fist Plate. Too much of a bother. Brick Break OHKOs Sneasel, and it and Crobat 3HKO you with Ice Punch and Air Cutter respectively. If you Swords Dance to +2, you kill Sneasel then can possibly Sucker Punch Crobat for half its HP. Honchkrow OHKOs with Drill Peck, and unboosted Brick Break doesn’t seem to 2HKO (though you outspeed).
Saturn 2 (46): Fist Plate. Air Cutter from Golbat 3HKOs while you 2HKO with +2 Sucker Punch, meaning you have to hope it doesn’t Confuse Ray. If you break through, Bronzor dies to +2 Brick Break. If you got to this point, you can outspeed and hopefully deal two hits to Saturn’s Toxicroak, knocking it to red with two Brick Breaks.
Cyrus 3 (46): Fist Plate. Actually tanks Houndoom’s Flamethrower and OHKOs back with Brick Break (watch out for Will-O-Wisp). You can actually do some sneaky stuff by baiting a Waterfall for free healing from Gyarados but you don’t heal that much and I doubt you tank an Earthquake. Weavile 2HKOs with Ice Punch but you OHKO back with Brick Break.
Volkner (48): Cheri Berry. Definitely mediocre. Even if you get a Charge Beam boost from Jolteon and kill it, Electivire can live +2 Poison Jab (Electivire outspeeds), ThunderPunch you to red (it 2HKOs) and kills with Quick Attack. Luxray also 2HKOs AND lives a +2 Poison Jab. So yeah, definitely too frail here.
Final Barry (52): Fist Plate. Obviously avoid Staraptor (you can live Aerial Ace from it but do nothing back). You 3HKO Infernape with Brick Break as it 2HKOs with Flamethrower. However, if you can bait out Roserade that is easy setup to +2 as it 4HKOs with Shadow Ball. Snorlax comes in and dies to +2 Brick Break (I think it’s a 3HKO normally without buffs?), Heracross lives in red, is Poisoned (it has Swarm) and I live Aerial Ace in red (seems a 2HKO). Floatzel comes out to Aqua Jet me and heals, letting me OHKO at +2. Situational, but valuable nonetheless.
Aaron (54): Fist Plate. Much to my surprise, you can kind of sweep here if you lure in Heracross! Swords Dance to +4 then OHKO it. Drapion outspeeds but seems to 3HKO with Aerial Ace so you might need to heal on Heracross to make sure you live Drapion. You then kill four members of his team.
Bertha (54): Fist Plate. You can actually LIVE Zen Headbutt from Whiscash but sadly +2 Brick Break can miss the roll to OHKO it. Then Gliscor comes out and revenges you. Not gonna bother with the others as they are likely too bulky.
Flint (54): Blackglasses. You outspeed and OHKO Houndoom with Brick Break. +2 Sucker Punch plus Rapidash’s Flare Blitz recoil might OHKO it (you live in red without Sun, and are also 2HKOed by Bounce). I once had a scenario where it used Bounce letting me get to +4 but it only resulted in Infernape being at 1/3 after Flare Blitz.
Lucian (54): BlackGlasses. SD to +2 as Mime uses a screen, Sucker punch and kill it. Sucker Punch on Alakazam kills it and knocks Espeon to red. Despite what you might think, pretty decent!
Cynthia (54): Fist Plate. Effective Lucario check, as you outspeed and 2HKO with Brick Break as it 3HKOs with Shadow Ball / ExtremeSpeed. COMPLETELY dumps on Milotic - it lets you Swords Dance as it does nothing, letting you 2HKO with +2 Poison Jab.
So, what's my overall opinion after those logs?
Yes, it needs Swords Dance, Brick Break, and arguably Poison Jab, though it gets the last of those naturally at level 41. Honestly this is like RBY Dodrio levels of investment and really not that bad. To sum it up, you get:
-A Lucario killer and later on a Milotic / Heracross killer
-An incredibly free Wake matchup (huge!)
-Byron may be easy, but plenty of people complain about Candice, and being able to sweep her without evasion BS is heavily appreciated.
-An Aaron "psuedo-sweep"
-Denting half of Lucian's team despite a Psychic weakness
-Acceptable contributions to the final Cyrus battle (beats Houndoom and Weavile)
-While not great for Flint, Volkner, or Bertha, you can probably pick off a mon.
I can honestly see Crogunk as a borderline C / B, but I really encourage more people to run with it. It's way better than it looks on paper and can honestly surprise you if you take advantage of Dry Skin, its good resistances, and Sucker Punch. I think the logs speak for themselves, and while not every matchup is watertight, it's way better than your average Poison type in-game and has good power even without status buffs. Shame the movepool sucks.
Yes, it needs Swords Dance, Brick Break, and arguably Poison Jab, though it gets the last of those naturally at level 41. Honestly this is like RBY Dodrio levels of investment and really not that bad.
It generally wants Tri Attack if it can't get Body Slam. Tri Attack can hardly be learned by anything anyway, and it's a pretty strong STAB option. This is like Croagunk wanting the Poison Jab TM so it has a nice and reliable STAB option. There is a difference that Doduo also appreciates Fly, which is an HM, Brick Break is much more contested and very out of the way.
Dodrio can also tear through the nearest Gym to both catch up and have an immediate contribution. Croagunk can get a lot of mileage against Wake because of Dry Skin. Doduo is more efficient, but to be fair, we're comparing an A-Rank mon to a C/B nomination.
Another point of similarity is the use of a Game Corner TM. Drum could afford SD immediately, which is plausible with how many trainers the loop between Hearthome, Veilstone, and Pastoria has.
RBY Dodrio can use Hyper Beam to incredible effect (Like, for example, it OHKOs Blue's Alakazam) but it's not a priority for it to function, so you can hold off on buying it until you can comfortably spare the money.
With all of that said, I agree with pretty much everything Drumstick said, and there is a considerable risk of Turtwig being at B, because its early game is extremely reliant on reaching certain level thresholds or it won't do anything against both Mars and Gardenia. This severely restricts one's teambuilding options, as getting, say, Magikarp, puts you at a distressing risk of not evolving before Mars or missing on Bite vs. Gardenia or both, really.
Frankly, Turtwig's 4MSS is severely understated.
Wood Hammer packs outrageous output, but it also has incredible recoil. By itself, that wouldn't be too bad, but Torterra is slow. Being slow with that drawback means that you take a lot of damage constantly.
Fortunately, it learns Rock Polish by TM. When you can click Earthquake, it's amazing. When you have to click Hammer (Hi, Bertha!) you find out a sweep can't happen. The recoil is too heavy. Obviously, no one uses Polish to beat a 1v1, and it can't be ignored because it's by far the best option for its 4th slot, unless you want to maximize coverage and pick Crunch.
Speaking of coverage, Grass/Ground is walled by two of the most common mons in the game. Zubat and Bronzor. Matter of fact, anything that flies takes a dump on Torterra by typing alone, so you gotta pick a coverage option.
Do you want inaccurate Rock moves like Slide and Stone Edge, or do you want to actually have a fighting chance against Bronzor? If the latter, be prepared to use pre-buff Rock Tomb for a distressing stretch of the game, otherwise, you'll rely on Bite and Crunch, which should help a bit against Lucian and provide solid neutral coverage against most things that resist Grass/Ground.
Wood Hammer is very counter-productive to what Torterra should be doing, but with more than twice the power of Razor Leaf, it's hard to argue against it.
I guess I can summarize everything by saying that whenever Torterra can't click EQ, it utterly falls apart. This also explains how horrible the Grotle phase is.
Torterra is strong, but it performs like a B-Rank mon IMO.
Just found this thread. I have some arguments for Snover:
Snover E--->B (maybe C) (DP)
I'm actually surprised to see Snover that far down. I used it in my Pearl run years ago, and I think it's one of the best late-game Pokemon (and probably the best non-Legendary one)! I'd love to give it an A rating for its uniqueness, but I think B (or C) is largely more reasonable due to late availability. I'll list some pros and cons
Pros:
-The only good Ice-type (Weavile is only useful as a Dark-type)
-Grass-type is also a good secondary type
-Resistance to Electric and Ground are useful against Volkner, Bertha and Cynthia
--Reliably KOs Cynthia's Garchomp (this is debatable - I don't have evidence right now)
-Outspeeds Bertha's team, despite unimpressive speed (need to verify)
-Excellent Movepool without rare TMs: Snow Warning STAB Blizzard, Wood Hammer, Ice Shard, Ice Punch
Cons:
-Late availability
-Many weaknesses, with Fire, Bug, Flying and Rock being the most relevant ones
Neutrals/Notes:
-Evolves at a late Lv40, but it's not far from evolving if caught at first opportunity. Alternatively, you could catch an Abomasnow at Mt. Coronet, but you can't level it up at Galactic HQ
-More Ice-types in Platinum give it competition, but it still has all its good traits from before.
-Solid, but average stats
While I think B is sort of pushing it, I do think Snover deserves to be higher than E for both DP and Platinum. I used it in both Diamond and Platinum lately and it was surprisingly good. It takes a bit of grinding to get going but once it does it's a very resourceful teammate to have on your team. Ice+Grass STAB is incredibly useful combination to have, especially two 120 BP ones with Blizzard and Wood Hammer, and maybe Ice Shard as priority and a bit of coverage like Earthquake or Focus Blast/Brick Break if you're feeling like having a bit of coverage. The fact that hail damages your other mons every turn does suck but it does not take away from Abomasnow's inherent usefulness as an Ice-type and even a Grass-type. It's a very useful mon to have late game because of its great STABs, and it can prove its worth against Volkner in Diamond by crushing Octillery and dealing with his other mons well, and in both it can handle Bertha remarkably well. It can cover many important things out there, clearing the water route before Victory Road, can hold its own against Flying-types like Golbat and the like, and whatnot. In Diamond it can take a Brick Break from Cynthia's Garchomp and retaliate with Blizzard+Ice Shard if necessary. It's a bit worse in Platinum imo since Volkner and Cynthia both have coverage for it but it still pulled its weight against Bertha very well and contributed against Cynthia nicely by dealing with her Milotic as well as helping against Garchomp (Milotic is another good matchup for Aboma).
I'd say it definitely deserves to be better than C because it can in many cases prove a competent, if not reliable member of your team. Just need to train it quite a bit beforehand to get it going but it's a very resourceful mon once it does.
Thirding Snover being C or maybe even B, though with how late it is the latter may be unlikely. I love using it and while not the best mon out there, the dual STABs do what they need to just fine. It’s a little late, sure, but…Specs Blizzard and Wood Hammer at only like, level 35 or so? It hurts, and honestly doesn’t take too long to evolve. Also pretty decent for grinding wilds in either Victory Road or that Gyarados fisherman for the League, making it a smidge more efficient.
Yes it has a lot of weaknesses but if you know the game well it shouldn’t be an issue. It’s a halfway decent Cyrus Gyarados check too, as it resists Waterfall and Earthquake, leaving Gyarados to hit with Ice Fang and Giga Impact for decent damage.
Honestly I’d throw Sneasel and Snover both in C. Sneasel may be the best Ice type on paper but that shard hunting for Ice Punch (while you can trade Star Pieces at Fuego Ironworks and soft reset in the Great Marsh to help) is seriously painful, and outside of Ice STAB you hit only Lucian so you can’t afford to forego it.
I need to try Mamoswine though, see how it stacks up.
also sorry for misspelling Croagunk in my previous post, I blame the stupid pronunciation for this
Yeah, I really dunno how Snover wound up at E on the last thread. Slow Exp. Group is always a pain, but it looks like a pretty straightforward mon.
Physical sets are going to roll with Avalanche / Hammer or Razor Leaf / TM Coverage / Ice Shard.
Special can rock with Blizzard / Giga Drain / TM / Filler
Even mixed is viable.
Could be a solid C. I'll keep it in mind when I get to finish this Pearl run. I doubt Ice Shard can OHKO Chomp, and even more that it can survive a Flamethrower, but let's see what happens.
This'll probably be my last post for a while, IRL work is seriously ramping up.
Anyway, I echo Snover belonging in C. A mixed end game move set of Blizzard, Ice Shard, Wood Hammer, Giga Drain makes a lot of sense to me. Yes, you could give it a coverage move but realistically it only wants Steel coverage and the only good Steel coverage moves are Brick Break and Earthquake, which are both very hotly contested TMs (read: Focus Blast is not a good move, even in game). I think it's just better off with its STABs. 100% accurate Blizzard is sweet and Ice Shard can pick off faster foes. Giga Drain synergizes well with Wood Hammer to replenish recoil.
With that move set it should perform reasonably well against late game bosses. Cyrus's Gyarados and Crobat are probably wins. Decent Volkner matchup. Dominant Bertha matchup, even if she's not particularly hard. Platinum Cynthia's Garchomp is not a win, but Milotic is which is a tough matchup in and of itself. It holds its own.
But I wouldn't get too carried away. B tier seems too high for a mon you get before the seventh Gym, with Slow EXP, not particularly great base stats to warrant its experience group, Snow Warning which will probably hurt the rest of your team, and a plethora of weaknesses. Grass/Ice might be kind of neat offensively but that is a lot of weaknesses. Still and all, I think it could get C tier with a solid test. E tier seems pretty obviously too harsh.
I also have some points for DP Pokemon that should be reconsidered. This is not a complete analysis, however:
Pros:
-Amazing typing with only one weakness
-Powerful STAB attacks in Surf, Aqua Tail and Earthquake, and good early-game movepool in Water Pulse, Mud Shot, Magnitude
-Decently early availability (Route 208 w/ Good Rod) at up to Lv25
-Good bulk as Whiscash
-Medium Fast Exp Growth
-Good matchups against Maylene (if evolved), Byron, Volkner, Bertha, and Flint
Cons:
-Barboach is not particularly powerful until it evolves
Notes/Neutrals:
-Whiscash's offensive stats are passable, but not amazing. This is offset by his powerful STABS which can OHKO or 2HKO most Pokemon (verify)
-Overall solid, but average stats
-These traits may make it good enough for C
Pros:
-Unique and useful typing; one of the few users of Fly with dual-typing
-Can learn Fly and Shadow Ball
-Obtained at high level and early
-Evolves in 6 levels
-Good matchup against Gardenia, Maylene, Burgh, and Lucian
Cons:
-Obtained only on Fridays (but so is Lapras in GS)
-Barely usable movepool (Gust, Ominous Wind) until Fly and Shadow Ball
-Fluctuating Exp Growth
-Poor mid/lategame matchups in Fantina, Candace, Volkner
-Faces severe competition from Starly and Gastly, with its only significant positive trait compared to them IMO is its compressed dual-typing (and maybe better bulk)
Notes/Neutrals:
-Decent, but not insane Atk and SpAtk as Drifblim (base 80 and 90)
-I do not know if 150/44/54 Defensive stats makes it bulky or frail (or average)
-D may be appropriate (where it stands now), but there may be argument for C
Pros:
-Can be obtained at Lv25 (when it evolves)
-Wide Movepool (Psybeam, Bubblebeam, Aurora Beam, Ice Beam, Surf, Fire Blast, etc)
-Very good Atk and SpAtk (105 Each) - SpAtk is only superseded by Empoleon and Palkia (and Vaporeon in Platinum)
-It's an octopus!
Cons:
-Other good Water-type Pokemon obtained earlier
-Slow
Notes/Neutrals:
-Obtained at Route 213 (mid-game)
-Average Bulk
-Matchups need review
-Needs testing (unless I missed someone who has tested it), but could be C/B
Pros:
-Solid mid/lategame movepool (Earthquake, Crunch, Elemental Fangs)
-Yawn and Bite available upon capture
-Excellent Attack and Defense
-Good matchups against Fantina and Volkner
-Useful against Burgh and Flint's strongest Pokemon (Drapion and Infernape) due to typing and excellent defense
Cons:
-Does not learn a viable Ground-type attack until Earthquake at Lv40 (Lv37 if choose to wait on evolution)
--Cannot even learn Dig until HGSS...
--Early game matchups that would be normally good are offset by this
-Slow Evolution
-Kinda rare (5% chance)
-Low Speed
Notes/Neutrals:
-Obtained mid-game (Ruin Maniac's Cave)
-Average SpDef
-D or E makes sense due to lack of Ground-type attack until Earthquake. Otherwise it would be higher
Pros:
-Great Speed and high SpDef
-Learns Surf immediately
-Tentacruel can be obtained at a high level (up to Lv40)
-Can learn some good TMs (Toxic, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb)
Cons:
-Not available until after 5th Gym
-Poison-typing is more of a liability than an advantage
--Weakness to Ground and Psychic is disheartening
-Stuck with Surf without rare TMs
-Overall poor Elite Four matchups (Weak to Bertha and Cynthia's Earthquakes, Flint's Infernape's Thunderpunch, Lucian's Psychic attacks)
-Faces competition from other Water-type Pokemon that are obtained earlier and have higher offensive stats
Notes/Neutrals
-Average SpAtk
-I do not have info about gym matchups
-I think it should be D rather than E, even though I have not tested it (unless I also missed this one and someone did test it)
Again, this is all just for consideration. This is mostly to give credit to some forgotten mons (mostly Barboach and Remoraid).
It's an extremely rare encounter that's basically unobtainable for a regular player. It's bottom tier for the same reason as Munchlax, a good Pokemon with beyond horrible availability.
It's an extremely rare encounter that's basically unobtainable for a regular player. It's bottom tier for the same reason as Munchlax, a good Pokemon with beyond horrible availability.
Iirc, 1% encounter on only 4 random honey trees that may or may not require Surf to access, and they're picked based on ID, which you have no control over. Also, there is no visual indication of which tree is the right one, so you can just try it a couple of times, not get it, and think it's not the right tree.
Now, I don't quite remember if Hera is also restricted to Munchlax trees as I described, but I'm sure it's a 1% chance on a Honey Tree, so it's definitely not viable.
Would probably be neat, if you could get one, that is.
So I decided to get Thunderbot for Rotom. Not like it was using Confuse Ray with specs. Now onto more important matters, like exploring Sunnyshore City.
I swear I went into every house in the city before I remembered the lighthouse in the south, including the one that requires Rock Climb. Why don't they just have Flint tell you where Volkner is? Anyway, time for the gym.
The first trainer is level 47. I'm 43 at the highest. I get the feeling you're meant to be higher leveled here. At least it was only a Pachirisu, with it's 6HKO on Lopunny Discharge.
Probo can't take 1 hit a Luxio with Earthquake. They don't even have intimidate. I mean it's not like it's a big deal right now, they do absolutely nothing, but still. At least it seems that only the single pokemon trainers, and presumably Volkner, are levels above me.
I should definitly have given Rotom Shadow Ball. Ominous Wind isn't lacking in power, exactly, but much like Silver Wind 5 PP is not enough. At least it isn't the only way he has of dealing damage, specs Thunderbolt is decent even on resists and Thunder is as powerful.
Okay, all the gym trainers beaten but tbh I don't feel comfortable fighting Volkner with an average level of 42.33. The only Pokémon I have that aren't 2 hit by thunderbolt from an Electabuzz are Rotom and Torterra, so time to train to a more reasonable level.
Does it say more about Platinum or my knowledge of the game that I'm pretty sure the ace trainers east of Celestic town are still one of the best ways to train? Scyther, Probopass and Gyarados give good exp, Luxio and Raichu aren't bad and at this point in the game pretty much anything that's not paying catchup can take them on.
With everyone at a nice, even 45 it's time to take on Volkner.
It wasn't horrible, but it wasn't great either. Lopunny 2HKO'd Jolteon with Return, Glaceon did the same to Raichu with Ice Beam but was slower and ran the risk of Focus Blast doing the same, Rotom barely missed out on a 2HKO on Luxray before being taken down, at which point Dustox came out, used Toxic and managed to bring him down that way with some healing. Electivire went down to Probopass, Earthquake being a 4HKO after Sitrus with Thunderpunch being a 3HKO, so quite a bit of healing required there too. Pretty good for being lower leveled then his worst though IMO.
You get HM08 before HM07. I never noticed that before. Are these the only games like that or am I just blind?
Pelipper learns Payback. Why does Pelipper learn Payback.
The AI's starting to get a bit smarter now. I switch into Rotom to take on the Machoke and they immediately switch out to Gastrodon to take the Thunderbolt. Onto Victory Road.
And Probopass gets KO'd by the second pokemon I fight, both wild. This is not off to a good start. Manages to take down a bird keeper and a Blissey after I get him healed though.
Who the fuck though it was a good idea for Victory Road to need more HM's then can be put on one pokemon? Can't even be bothered flying to the move deleter for the 4th or 5th time since I started it today, I'll just replace Focus Miss on Lopunny and get it back after.
I ended up needing to look up the map so I could find my way through. Veteran Edgar is very dangerous if you're unprepared, took out half my team. And with that, I'm at the league. Not going to take them on quite yet, Rotom is 45 while the rest of my team is min 47 + I still have to replace Rock Smash with Focus Blast on Lopunny.
C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.
Managing to hang on to C, just, as it's still got decent bulk and powerful STABs but I've got a feeling it'll be D by the end. Bug Buzz, Toxic and Sludge Bomb is a good selection of moves, 2 powerful STABs that somewhat make up for Dustox's lack of raw power and Toxic allows it to overcome things it probably shouldn't be able to by just waiting them out as it does its thing. Another good point for Dustox is that you can tailor the last move to patch a hole if you find one, Psychic or Psybeam can help deal with poison and fighting types, Giga Drain can hit Rock, Ground and Water types while Shadow Ball makes it a decent Ghost killer, and it's got natural self healing if none of these are necessary.
C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.
Really feeling its lack of bulk and super effectiveness, good at getting 2HKOs on neutral targets but will usually be 2HKO'd as well, which can cause problems given that your main STAB loses power when you're KO'd. Probably didn't help that I had to replace its only move that can take on steel and rock types with Rock Smash.
A-Tier
These Pokémon are highly efficient and well-recommended but have minor flaws that prevent them from being broken such as a crippling matchup, availability issues or a weak period without absolute dominance afterward.
Torterra is still Torterra. Still a slow, bulky hammer that makes everything look like a nail. Not quite as effective in this part as I thought it would be due to pokemon having coverage moves I wasn't expecting and not wanting it to just abuse its type advantage in the gym. Wood Hammer's recoil is really annoying, thinking maybe I should go back and get Giga Drain for it. Not like I was using Curse anyway.
C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.
Thunder is the only move that truely has enough power, and with just 70 accuracy it's not something you can rely on. Shadow Ball, while it would help with ground and electric types, wouldn't fix the issue as Thunderbolt is more powerful but it's still only just enough sometimes.
C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.
Flash Cannon is a great, reliable STAB move. Rock Slide isn't quite as powerful as it once was, but still useful. Thunder is about as powerful as Flash Cannon and provides some useful coverage. Now that Sunnyshore and Victory Road are done there is pretty much no scenario where Earthquake is the best option, and really if it wasn't for the amount of Steelix in Victory Road it already would be. Definitly getting replaced with Stealth Rock before I take on the Elite Four.
C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.
Ice Beam and Blizzard are still probably my 2 most powerful moves. Slow speed + low HP isn't a great combination but decent bulk helps offset that and if he does survive, chances are somethings dying. Shadow Ball adds coverage, which is actually less powerful then a 1/2 resisted Blizzard but that is an inaccurate, low PP move. Not that Shadow Ball hits a lot of what Ice doesn't, so mostly I've just been using it as a finisher to help save PP.
Probably going to do another run once I'm finished this, are there any E/F tier pokémon that are there because that's where they were on the last tier list rather than because someone's used them since this thread was made?
EDIT : Hippopotas, Steelix, Pikachu, Barboach, Budew as Budew and Golbat. Means I'm not taking on Fantina with just one pokemon. Open to suggestions though.
So I decided to get Thunderbot for Rotom. Not like it was using Confuse Ray with specs. Now onto more important matters, like exploring Sunnyshore City.
I swear I went into every house in the city before I remembered the lighthouse in the south, including the one that requires Rock Climb. Why don't they just have Flint tell you where Volkner is? Anyway, time for the gym.
The first trainer is level 47. I'm 43 at the highest. I get the feeling you're meant to be higher leveled here. At least it was only a Pachirisu, with it's 6HKO on Lopunny Discharge.
Probo can't take 1 hit a Luxio with Earthquake. They don't even have intimidate. I mean it's not like it's a big deal right now, they do absolutely nothing, but still. At least it seems that only the single pokemon trainers, and presumably Volkner, are levels above me.
I should definitly have given Rotom Shadow Ball. Ominous Wind isn't lacking in power, exactly, but much like Silver Wind 5 PP is not enough. At least it isn't the only way he has of dealing damage, specs Thunderbolt is decent even on resists and Thunder is as powerful.
Okay, all the gym trainers beaten but tbh I don't feel comfortable fighting Volkner with an average level of 42.33. The only Pokémon I have that aren't 2 hit by thunderbolt from an Electabuzz are Rotom and Torterra, so time to train to a more reasonable level.
Does it say more about Platinum or my knowledge of the game that I'm pretty sure the ace trainers east of Celestic town are still one of the best ways to train? Scyther, Probopass and Gyarados give good exp, Luxio and Raichu aren't bad and at this point in the game pretty much anything that's not paying catchup can take them on.
With everyone at a nice, even 45 it's time to take on Volkner.
It wasn't horrible, but it wasn't great either. Lopunny 2HKO'd Jolteon with Return, Glaceon did the same to Raichu with Ice Beam but was slower and ran the risk of Focus Blast doing the same, Rotom barely missed out on a 2HKO on Luxray before being taken down, at which point Dustox came out, used Toxic and managed to bring him down that way with some healing. Electivire went down to Probopass, Earthquake being a 4HKO after Sitrus with Thunderpunch being a 3HKO, so quite a bit of healing required there too. Pretty good for being lower leveled then his worst though IMO.
You get HM08 before HM07. I never noticed that before. Are these the only games like that or am I just blind?
Pelipper learns Payback. Why does Pelipper learn Payback.
The AI's starting to get a bit smarter now. I switch into Rotom to take on the Machoke and they immediately switch out to Gastrodon to take the Thunderbolt. Onto Victory Road.
And Probopass gets KO'd by the second pokemon I fight, both wild. This is not off to a good start. Manages to take down a bird keeper and a Blissey after I get him healed though.
Who the fuck though it was a good idea for Victory Road to need more HM's then can be put on one pokemon? Can't even be bothered flying to the move deleter for the 4th or 5th time since I started it today, I'll just replace Focus Miss on Lopunny and get it back after.
I ended up needing to look up the map so I could find my way through. Veteran Edgar is very dangerous if you're unprepared, took out half my team. And with that, I'm at the league. Not going to take them on quite yet, Rotom is 45 while the rest of my team is min 47 + I still have to replace Rock Smash with Focus Blast on Lopunny.
C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.
Managing to hang on to C, just, as it's still got decent bulk and powerful STABs but I've got a feeling it'll be D by the end. Bug Buzz, Toxic and Sludge Bomb is a good selection of moves, 2 powerful STABs that somewhat make up for Dustox's lack of raw power and Toxic allows it to overcome things it probably shouldn't be able to by just waiting them out as it does its thing. Another good point for Dustox is that you can tailor the last move to patch a hole if you find one, Psychic or Psybeam can help deal with poison and fighting types, Giga Drain can hit Rock, Ground and Water types while Shadow Ball makes it a decent Ghost killer, and it's got natural self healing if none of these are necessary.
C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.
Really feeling its lack of bulk and super effectiveness, good at getting 2HKOs on neutral targets but will usually be 2HKO'd as well, which can cause problems given that your main STAB loses power when you're KO'd. Probably didn't help that I had to replace its only move that can take on steel and rock types with Rock Smash.
A-Tier
These Pokémon are highly efficient and well-recommended but have minor flaws that prevent them from being broken such as a crippling matchup, availability issues or a weak period without absolute dominance afterward.
Torterra is still Torterra. Still a slow, bulky hammer that makes everything look like a nail. Not quite as effective in this part as I thought it would be due to pokemon having coverage moves I wasn't expecting and not wanting it to just abuse its type advantage in the gym. Wood Hammer's recoil is really annoying, thinking maybe I should go back and get Giga Drain for it. Not like I was using Curse anyway.
C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.
Thunder is the only move that truely has enough power, and with just 70 accuracy it's not something you can rely on. Shadow Ball, while it would help with ground and electric types, wouldn't fix the issue as Thunderbolt is more powerful but it's still only just enough sometimes.
C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.
Flash Cannon is a great, reliable STAB move. Rock Slide isn't quite as powerful as it once was, but still useful. Thunder is about as powerful as Flash Cannon and provides some useful coverage. Now that Sunnyshore and Victory Road are done there is pretty much no scenario where Earthquake is the best option, and really if it wasn't for the amount of Steelix in Victory Road it already would be. Definitly getting replaced with Stealth Rock before I take on the Elite Four.
C-Tier
These Pokémon are solid but will require significant support to reach their full potential.
Ice Beam and Blizzard are still probably my 2 most powerful moves. Slow speed + low HP isn't a great combination but decent bulk helps offset that and if he does survive, chances are somethings dying. Shadow Ball adds coverage, which is actually less powerful then a 1/2 resisted Blizzard but that is an inaccurate, low PP move. Not that Shadow Ball hits a lot of what Ice doesn't, so mostly I've just been using it as a finisher to help save PP.
Probably going to do another run once I'm finished this, are there any E/F tier pokémon that are there because that's where they were on the last tier list rather than because someone's used them since this thread was made?
EDIT : Hippopotas, Steelix, Pikachu, Barboach, Budew as Budew and... Cranidos. Means I'm not taking on Fantina with just one pokemon. Open to suggestions though.
I also have some points for DP Pokemon that should be reconsidered. This is not a complete analysis, however:
Pros:
-Amazing typing with only one weakness
-Powerful STAB attacks in Surf, Aqua Tail and Earthquake, and good early-game movepool in Water Pulse, Mud Shot, Magnitude
-Decently early availability (Route 208 w/ Good Rod) at up to Lv25
-Good bulk as Whiscash
-Medium Fast Exp Growth
-Good matchups against Maylene (if evolved), Byron, Volkner, Bertha, and Flint
Cons:
-Barboach is not particularly powerful until it evolves
Notes/Neutrals:
-Whiscash's offensive stats are passable, but not amazing. This is offset by his powerful STABS which can OHKO or 2HKO most Pokemon (verify)
-Overall solid, but average stats
-These traits may make it good enough for C
Pros:
-Unique and useful typing; one of the few users of Fly with dual-typing
-Can learn Fly and Shadow Ball
-Obtained at high level and early
-Evolves in 6 levels
-Good matchup against Gardenia, Maylene, Burgh, and Lucian
Cons:
-Obtained only on Fridays (but so is Lapras in GS)
-Barely usable movepool (Gust, Ominous Wind) until Fly and Shadow Ball
-Fluctuating Exp Growth
-Poor mid/lategame matchups in Fantina, Candace, Volkner
-Faces severe competition from Starly and Gastly, with its only significant positive trait compared to them IMO is its compressed dual-typing (and maybe better bulk)
Notes/Neutrals:
-Decent, but not insane Atk and SpAtk as Drifblim (base 80 and 90)
-I do not know if 150/44/54 Defensive stats makes it bulky or frail (or average)
-D may be appropriate (where it stands now), but there may be argument for C
Pros:
-Can be obtained at Lv25 (when it evolves)
-Wide Movepool (Psybeam, Bubblebeam, Aurora Beam, Ice Beam, Surf, Fire Blast, etc)
-Very good Atk and SpAtk (105 Each) - SpAtk is only superseded by Empoleon and Palkia (and Vaporeon in Platinum)
-It's an octopus!
Cons:
-Other good Water-type Pokemon obtained earlier
-Slow
Notes/Neutrals:
-Obtained at Route 213 (mid-game)
-Average Bulk
-Matchups need review
-Needs testing (unless I missed someone who has tested it), but could be C/B
Pros:
-Solid mid/lategame movepool (Earthquake, Crunch, Elemental Fangs)
-Yawn and Bite available upon capture
-Excellent Attack and Defense
-Good matchups against Fantina and Volkner
-Useful against Burgh and Flint's strongest Pokemon (Drapion and Infernape) due to typing and excellent defense
Cons:
-Does not learn a viable Ground-type attack until Earthquake at Lv40 (Lv37 if choose to wait on evolution)
--Cannot even learn Dig until HGSS...
--Early game matchups that would be normally good are offset by this
-Slow Evolution
-Kinda rare (5% chance)
-Low Speed
Notes/Neutrals:
-Obtained mid-game (Ruin Maniac's Cave)
-Average SpDef
-D or E makes sense due to lack of Ground-type attack until Earthquake. Otherwise it would be higher
Pros:
-Great Speed and high SpDef
-Learns Surf immediately
-Tentacruel can be obtained at a high level (up to Lv40)
-Can learn some good TMs (Toxic, Ice Beam, Blizzard, Giga Drain, Sludge Bomb)
Cons:
-Not available until after 5th Gym
-Poison-typing is more of a liability than an advantage
--Weakness to Ground and Psychic is disheartening
-Stuck with Surf without rare TMs
-Overall poor Elite Four matchups (Weak to Bertha and Cynthia's Earthquakes, Flint's Infernape's Thunderpunch, Lucian's Psychic attacks)
-Faces competition from other Water-type Pokemon that are obtained earlier and have higher offensive stats
Notes/Neutrals
-Average SpAtk
-I do not have info about gym matchups
-I think it should be D rather than E, even though I have not tested it (unless I also missed this one and someone did test it)
Again, this is all just for consideration. This is mostly to give credit to some forgotten mons (mostly Barboach and Remoraid).
Wanna step in and say I firmly disagree on C Barboach. It's been a while since I've used it but I can assure you it is firmly Garboach and Whistrash.
Movepool isn't so bad, but then you look at the stats. Aside from 110 base HP, none of Whiscash's stats even hit 80. That is seriously weaksauce, to the point where not even TMing Earthquake on immediately is a guaranteed OHKO on Maylene's Lucario. Seriously. Unevolved Machop hits harder than Whiscash. Machop.
Okay, availability. This honestly is...bleh. You get it early but you need to backtrack to Eterna so yay. Maylene is halfway okay but the other matchups it doesn't hit super-effectively in, Whiscash will fail. It doesn't have the stats to back up the good type combination at all, and right when you get Whiscash, guess what, everything starts evolving and likely is superior statwise. Honestly, I think pretty much any Water type is better than this. Gastrodon has higher firepower, Floatzel hits harder AND is faster, Tentacruel hits marginally harder and has pretty good Speed...
...Yeah, when the only thing you look good in comparison to is Finneon, there's no reason to use Garboach. It may sound like I'm being harsh but those stats just do not work and I think it's a clear D tier. Does nothing other Waters don't do better, and it's not like Water types are super noteworthy in general in Sinnoh regardless (I have issues with pre-Surf Buizel).
