DPPt In-Game Tier List Thread v2

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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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okay so I did a run with Chimchar / Alakazam (not Kazza, don't use Kazza) / Psyduck / Jolteon / Roselia (not Budew, don't use Budew) / Swinub. Although this is my first run of this game (well, technically, I played it years ago as part of a challenge, but I was like 15 or so lul, no memories anyways), I feel pretty confident with my nominations, especially after I got some handholding privately when I wasn't aware of what to do

For transparency purposes, here's how I came up and will come up with my nominations. All of them take into account Gym Leader and E4 matchups. In addition, I give "bonuses" to Pokemon that can beat Mars #1's Purugly, Jupiter #1's Skuntank, Cyrus #3 (or perform well against him, doesn't matter), and Cynthia (or perform well against her, doesn't matter) but I won't necessarily penalize a Pokemon for not doing much to those. I didn't bother with Barry, since I had the understanding that he wasn't that difficult early on and it seems like he's not that hard to sweep either. I think I get enough data elsewhere to the point that Barry would be a waste of time for me. For similar reasons, I don't bother testing the other Cyrus or Admin fights, since they seem way too easy for me to really consider those impactful for a Pokemon's ranking.

I understand that not everyone will be happy with me nilly-willy deciding not to test those, but I don't have the energy to test the entirety of the game, so I'd like to focus on the more important fights.

When testing, I aimed to keep my levels the same as the ace. The exceptions are Jupiter's Skuntank, where it's impossible if you level match Gardenia (also, I know my Monferno was slightly overleveled, I basically forgot the fight existed and thus my level wasn't prepared for that), Cyrus #3, because I was told that it was normal to be underleveled there and decided to respect that, and Volkner, because I thought that it was normal to be overleveled (and didn't know that there were trainers ahead, so for future runs, I will level match him too, only Zam got impacted by this anyways). Furthermore, I may from time to time overlevel by one or two levels if I have a good reason to do that (e.g. new move or evolution). I decided to be level 52 for the Elite Four. As a side note, I used tons of hacking to keep my team properly leveled, this is so I can run six mons at once and provide more results at once. All Pokemon have 20 IVs across the board and a neutral nature, unless it's an in-game trade or something, in which case those match their corresponding data.

Logs are at the end of the post. With that said, here are my nominations:

Chimchar
Chimchar was all-around great. Being a starter that is very consistent is probably one of the best Pokemon you can ever use in any in-game team. Chimchar wins a lot of fights, including Roark, Mars #1, Gardenia, Jupiter #1's Skuntank (how much my level 24 affected this, idek), Byron, Candice, Volkner if you start in Blaze range, Aaron, and Flint with SD or maybe Earthquake. It is decent in every other matchup bar Lucian and Wake, which seem to be very difficult anyways, so it's somewhat expected. The line didn't require tons of TMs, mainly Flamethrower for a strong STAB (especially if you find Flame Wheel at Maylene awkward) and Grass Knot for Bertha and a few other threats you may need it for. SD or EQ as well if Flint is an important matchup for you. All in all, assuming that the Flamethrower TM isn't a huge issue for it, Chimchar deserves S-tier. It is incredibly consistent and sweeps a lot of fights, being decent elsewhere, which is an incredible feat for a starter Pokemon, which is going to get you through other important parts of the games even if they aren't major fights.

Abra (Trade)
Let me first say that Alakazam happens to be one of my favorite Pokemon (alongside Gengar and Glalie, Rotom being my favorite). This is because what I am going to say really pains me to say this. I do not think that Alakazam is S-tier in Platinum and think it should be in A-tier. Alakazam is a decent Pokemon as a whole and probably one of the best options for the games, but man, I cannot deny that this thing has very apparent flaws, which are mostly related to consistency (or lack thereof in some instances) in its performance. It needs Psybeam to reliably sweep Gardenia and fails to sweep on multiple instances, like a majority of the E4 bar Lucian, Byron, and Candice unless you go with that inconsistent strategy I came up with. It does sweep Wake and Mars #1. However, it should be noted that you need Inner Focus for the latter and you have no way of knowing which ability it is until you catch Abra, so this somewhat neutralizes this matchup. With that said, it gets its best moves naturally, though it will want a few TMs for a full performance, and is very easy to level up thanks to Med Slow. It is a great Pokemon, but I cannot really call it S-tier, as it's very obvious that it has to be supported occassionally to make it through the game.

Psyduck
I am not sure what it's doing in B-tier, because my experience with Psyduck doesn't scream B-tier at all. Instead, I want to suggest dropping Psyduck to C-tier. Although Psyduck comes very early, it takes a while for it to start performing impressively in fights. It sweeps Roark, bu that's about it for most of the game. It can hold its ground on the field, so it's not a nightmare to grind until evolution, but even Golduck won't really stand out in major fights outside of getting KOs on the non-ace Pokemon (bar Byron). It gains some relevancy at the E4 with its Flint and Bertha matchups, but Golduck doesn't really exist outside of those and even though it's not bad with Specs and Surf, Golduck isn't really a significant force before getting those. I think C-tier makes more sense for it, because Psyduck is somewhat average ultimately, which to me is basically C-tier.

Eevee (Jolteon)
I think this one is also placed too high. While Jolteon is actually capable of impressive feats, I wouldn't say it performs well enough for A-tier and I think it should drop to B-tier. Jolteon doesn't really sweep fights, but I don't think I've had a bad matchup with it either, bar Bertha, though matchups like Volkner and Candice could be better. Jolteon's main appeal is that it's a fast Electric-type, making it ideal against opponents like Wake, Cyrus, and Cynthia, all of which I think are pretty difficult fights. I think Jolteon is decent, but is not something I'd say you should obligatorily use in a Platinum run and doesn't defeat enough opponents to deserve A-tier

Roselia
Okay so I am just gonna be blunt and say that Roselia has no absolutely no place in B-tier, yet alone A-tier where the line currently resides. Roselia is consistently mediocre against major fights, failing to sweep any of them. It gets thrashed by Lucian, Flint, and Candice, while getting a KO or two at best against most other opponents bar Bertha, which is its only decent matchup. A worrying matchup was Wake, where I only KOed one Pokemon in spite of the advantage. I didn't use Budew, even though you can use it on Roark, because you are unlikely to evolve Budew in a reasonable timeframe and that's true for any happiness evolution pre-Gen V. Medium Slow growth rate helps it keep up with levels, but that's about the only thing I liked about Roselia. Not to mention that you are stuck with Grass moves for a long time and they get resisted pretty often. As for a rank, I would suggest C / D. D might be a bit too harsh, but I wouldn't rule it out as a possible tier, because Roselia just... doesn't have anything going for it, even things like Psyduck get to shine in a few matchups later on and are at least decent against route trainers.

Swinub
ok so this is pretty bad as a whole. Its first problem is that it comes after six Gyms, so it's already in a bad position when it comes to its ranking. Second problem is grinding it up. Not only is Swinub pretty bad if you don't throw the EQ TM on it (Mamoswine learns it at level 40, but you are creating yourself some headaches trying to use a Swinub without EQ), but getting a level 34 to 40 with a Slow growth rate and no movepool outside of EQ is... not pleasant. Mamoswine will become a bit more usable, but it will still want the EQ TM to streamline the grinding process. Now, in terms of major fights, this thing doesn't have it well either. Most matchups are incredibly mediocre for Mamoswine, with Volkner being the only one where I KOed more than two Pokemon with it. It's way too slow for the end-game opponents and as a result gets overwhelmed quickly. All in all, don't use this at all. D-tier seems fine, but I really want to suggest E-tier at least to be considered, because I think everything in this game is against Swinub and it barely gets to do much, though I realize that E-tier might be harsh, just don't place it beyond the low tiers.

note: some logs don't feature Cynthia, this means that the Pokemon performs bad there and there's nothing valuable to mention or I never tried the Pokemon. Feel free to ask for more details if curious.
Infernape

Roark(14): Mach Punch 2HKOes Geodude while it sets up SR. Taunt against Onix to prevent Screech, then Leer it so Mach Punch can 2HKO. Even if you took a crit from Onix, you can live a Headbutt from Cranidos, which is 2HKOed by Mach Punch

Mars(17): if you insist on beating Zubat, I recommend Taunting it to prevent Toxic, then 3HKOing it with Ember. Purugly is 3HKOed by Mach Punch (feel free to use Leer to turn it into a 2HKO). Purugly fails to KO you with Fake Out and two Scratches, though Monferno barely lives those (left at 5 HP)

Gardenia(22): sweeps

Jupiter(24): outspeeds Skuntank. You can Taunt turn one, forcing it to spam Night Slash. Flame Wheel is a 4HKO without Sitrus Berry, wheres Night Slash is a 5HKO with no crits. As a whole, you win if no crits whatsoever. I am wondering if Leer + Mach Punch could help if you happen to be outsped, didn't have Leer unfortunately

Fantina(27): Flame Wheel 2HKOes everything but Mismagius (2HKO with Blaze, but turned into a 3HKO by Sitrus Berry). Haunter can be slightly annoying, but you beat 2/3 of her team with little difficulty.

Maylene(32): even with Flamethrower, you are unlikely to sweep. Flamethrower 2HKOes everything bar Lucario. Meditite Fake Outs and Rock Tombs you. Lucario goes for Drain Punch and puts you in red, which allows Flamethrower to OHKO Lucario. However, it still doesn't OHKO Machoke, which then KOes you

Wake(37): beats only Quagsire by OHKOing with Grass Knot. Floatzel 2HKOes with Aqua Jet and is 2HKOd by Grass Knot

Byron(41): CC on Bastiodon, Flamethrower on the rest. Nothing more to be said

Candice(44): outspeeds and OHKOes everything with Specs Flamethrower. Demolition mode activated. Worth mentioning that Abomasnow comes out last, so no Snow Cloak worries either.

Cyrus(46): outspeeds and OHKOes Houndoom with CC. Weavile is OHKOed easily but damages you a bit. You outspeed Honchkrow and OHKO it with Specs Flamethrower if you are in Blaze range. As a whole, you can take out 3/5 if you play around with Infernape's HP a bit

Volkner(48): outspeeds everything. Flamethrower seems to 2HKO everything consistently, so if you start with low HP and hold Specs, you can outspeed and OHKO everything, otherwise, you have to deal with Jolteon's Thunder Wave unless you have a Cheri Berry. Close Combat OHKOes Raichu, though.

Aaron(52): ouspeeds everything. Specs Flamethrower 2HKOes Drapion and OHKOes the rest. Easy sweep

Bertha(53): Specs Grass Knot 2HKOes Whiscash and OHKOes the rest bar Gliscor. You can live an Earth Power to the point that you can live two turn of sandstorm.

Flint(53): CC OHKOes Houndoom and 2HKOes the rest while outspeeding everything. This is probably the one matchup where you want SD, since Infernape isn't that great otherwise due to dying easily afterwards. EQ might help here too

Lucian(53): beats Bronzong and then gets smashed by the rest.

Cynthia(53): you can try setting up Calm Mind to the max against Spiritomb, but this will require at least two healing items, possibly more if you get SpD drops or you don't want to heal offscreen once you switch it out. Anyways, assuming you are at +6, you outspeed and OHKO Togekiss (I was level 54 when I faced it) and Spiritomb with Flamethrower. Grass Knot OHKOes Milotic. Garchomp comes out and forces you to switch out. You can then either just outspeed and OHKO Lucario with CC and accept a loss against Roserade or you can CM once, then OHKO Lucario and Roserade. This will require you to be healthy when facing Lucario, though, to avoid an ESpeed KO


Alakazam

Mars(17): Confusion 3HKOes Purugly. If you have Inner Focus, you can waste its turn with Fake Out. Then you live one Faint Attack and you are faster. So with Inner Focus, Alakazam wins here

Gardenia(22): best way to use it here is to beat Turtwig and Roserade (2HKO with Confusion) and to skip Cherrim, as Leech Seed trolls you really hard. If you overlevel for Psybeam, you can probably just blast everything away (Psybeam would OHKO Roserade and Turtwig). Cherrim is a 2HKO on rolls with Confusion, but Leech Seed turns it into a 3HKO.

Fantina(26): Psybeam OHKOes Haunter and 2HKOes Duskull. Despite both packing priority moves, neither seems keen on using them on Zam

Maylene(32): Mind Plate Psybeam spam wins easily. Lucario is 2HKOed, rest is OHKOed. Lives one Metal Claw.

Wake(37): there's a way to sweep here, but you need Shock Wave. Basically, Reflect turn one and CM once. Gyarados 3HKOes you with Reflect up. OHKO Gyarados. Floatzel would normally KO you with Aqua Jet, but Reflect seems to dissuade it from doing so, thus you outspeed and OHKO it with Shock Wave too. Quagsire then is OHKOed by +1 Mind Plate Psybeam

Byron(41): you need Focus Blast to win here, otherwise, you are only beating Magneton consistently.

Candice(44): you can sweep, but inconsistently. You OHKO Sneasel with Focus Blast then CM on Froslass as it DTeams. Then you OHKO it with Mind Plate Psychic (you outspeed). Aboma is put in red and then it KOes itself with Wood Hammer, which you barely survive. Then Piloswine dies to Psychic

Cyrus(46): beats Houndoom with Focus Blast and Crobat, avoid the rest

Volkner(48): at this level, Specs Psychic misses the OHKO on pretty much everything, I guess if you are less underleveled than I am, you can sweep, since you outspeed everything (at level 48, Specs Psychic puts everything in red)

Aaron(52): outspeeds and OHKOes Yanmega and Heracross. The rest beat you.

Bertha(53): Specs Grass Knot 2HKOes Whiscash and OHKOes the rest bar Gliscor.

Flint(53): pretty bad. You beat Infernape, but everything else lives one Specs Psychic and either OHKOes you or puts you in range for a priority move. Magmortar is 3HKOed due to berry and 2HKOes with Flamethrower

Lucian(53): CM to the max against Mr. Mime and spam Shadow Ball. Bronzong is OHKOed if there's no Light Screen. You outspeed everything bar his own Alakazam


Roark(14): outspeeds everything. Cranidos is 2HKOed, rest is OHKOed

Mars(17): didn't bother, don't think it's gonna do much to Purugly unless you want to use Disable or something

Gardenia: haha no

Fantina(26): can 1v1 either Duskull or Haunter, but Duskull generally damages you to the point Haunter finishes the deed.

Maylene(33): beats Meditite and Machoke. Lucario 1v1s with Drain Punch spam unless you throw in a Hyper Potion

Wake(37): I didn't this here too much because what are you really going to do, especially when lacking Specs or Surf?

Byron(41): Specs Surf go brr

Candice(44): beats Sneasel and Piloswine. Candice has a tendency to switch in Abomasnow while you are fighting Sneasel. Froslass is 2HKOed by Specs Surf, but you are likely losing to it if you are trying to sweep

Cyrus(46): beats Houndoom, but that's about it, I didn't test this thoroughly since I am sort of getting tired of getting KOed after one-two KOs

Volkner(48): nah, Specs Surf doesn't OHKO anything and you get overwhelmed quickly

Aaron(52): outspeeds and OHKOes Yanmega with Specs Ice Beam. Then you can either beat Vespiquen with that too or 1v1 Drapion with Specs Surf

Bertha(52): spam Specs Surf and you win. Whiscash is 2HKOed, the rest is OHKOed. Gliscor is faster, but fails to KO you even if you took an Earth Power. Hippowdon comes out last, so no worries about sandstorm chip

Flint(53): Specs Surf OHKOes everything but Magmortar. Rapidash and Infernape are faster, but they cannot KO you together. Magmortar finishes you off, though

Lucian(53): beats Mr. Mime and Bronzong, avoid the rest


Maylene(32): Thunderbolt OHKOes Meditite and 2HKOes the rest. Lucario 3HKOes with Fighting STAB (doesn't like to use Bone Rush, for w/e reasons). If you don't get paralyzed by Force Palm, you are likely sweeping, though Drain Punch turns the 2HKO into a 3HKO and thus may allow Machoke to finish you off.

Wake(37): avoid Quagsire, kill the rest

Byron(41): beats Magneton easily. Specs Thunderbolt is a 3HKO on Bastiodon due to Sitrus Berry. If it spams Stone Edge, you are most likely winning, but Metal Burst will probably hurt

Candice(44): Specs Thunderbolt OHKOes Sneasel on rolls and 2HKOes Froslass. Didn't try Shadow Ball, but don't think it'd change my mind too much.

Cyrus(46): easily beats Crobat, Honchkrow, and Gyarados, though Crobat outspeeds it, so you are unable to take on anything else due to taking damage against it.

Aaron(52): beats Yanmega and Vespiquen. Scizor can be 1v1ed with healing to avoid the QA KO.

Bertha: lol

Flint(52): beats Houndoom while it goes for Sunny Day and can beat Rapidash by barely living a Flare Blitz in the sun and outspeeding and 2HKOing with Specs Thunderbolt

Lucian(52): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOes everything bar Bronzong. You are taking out two mons at best

Cynthia(52): Specs TBolt 2HKOes Spiritomb, Togekiss, and Milotic. You need to heal to beat all of them


Fantina(26): 1v1s the Duskull with no problems. Haunter is annoying due to hax moves and Mismagius beats you unless you get really lucky with GrassWhistle.

Maylene(32): beats everything but Lucario

Wake(37): beats only Quagsire, unless there's a Miracle Seed that I missed that could have helped me. Gyarados 1v1s it by 3HKOing with Bite and ouspeeding. Quagsire dies easily, but Floatzel barely lives a Giga Drain and 2HKOes with Ice Fang while outspeeding

Byron(42): Specs Petal Dance OHKOes Steelix and 2HKOes Bastiodon. Could be worse, but not the most ideal way to perform here

Candice(44): beats Sneasel and Piloswine. The rest crush it

Cyrus(46): didn't try it, since the fight looks just way too bad for it

Volkner(48): seems to lose to Electivire, but the rest shouldn't be difficult with Specs Giga Drain, especially since it tends to 2HKO them.

Aaron(52): even with Sunny Day and Weather Ball, you won't be doing much due to Yanmega, Scizor, and Drapion all causing you problems (Yanmega hits you hard with Air Slash and has DTeam, Drapion comes right after that, Scizor finishes you off with priority).

Bertha(52): beats most things, avoid Gliscor. Hippowdon may be able to win, since it lives one Specs Giga Drain and uses Yawn while healing with a Full Restore

Flint: haha no

Lucian: didn't try because what are you doing with Roserade anyways? Shadow Ball isn't going to result in a sweep or anything of relevance, so...


Candice(44): beats only Sneasel and Piloswine. Abomasnow is obvious and Froslass lives a Soft Sand EQ and is faster, so it can finish you off if you took on Piloswine

Cyrus(46): outsped and OHKOed by Houndoom. Weavile is 2HKOed by Soft Sand EQ and Crobat is 2HKOed by Ice Shard. Honchkrow tends to beat you if you are in range for Heat Wave.

Volkner(48): EQ OHKOes everything. However, once you take an Iron Tail from Jolteon, Raichu can KO you with Focus Blast. Electivire fails to do that with Fire Punch and Luxray is slower, so you are beating 3/4 of his team, for most parts

Aaron(52): click Rock Slide on Yanmega. If it U-turns out, it will bring in Scizor, which then dies to EQ (if not, skip Scizor). Drapion dies to EQ and Vespiquen dies to Rock Slide as well

Bertha(52): Soft Sand EQ OHKOes Golem and 2HKOes most of the others bar Gliscor, which is 2HKOed by Ice Shard (it is faster and can finish you off with EQ). Hippowdon is 3HKOed by Ice Fang

Flint(52): outspeeds and kills Houndoom and Flareon. The rest fry it, though

Lucian(52): it is way too slow to do much here, so it doesn't do much here

Cynthia(52): 1v1s Garchomp with Ice Fang + Ice Shard, doesn't seem to do much else, though
so here are my noms without looking too much at my logs


I am planning on doing another run with Turtwig / Starly / Buizel / Rotom / Gengar / Giratina. My plan is to provide tests for most high tiers, I don't have much intention on testing most of the lower tiers, since those seem to be fairly obvious
 
Eevee (Jolteon)
I think this one is also placed too high. While Jolteon is actually capable of impressive feats, I wouldn't say it performs well enough for A-tier and I think it should drop to B-tier. Jolteon doesn't really sweep fights, but I don't think I've had a bad matchup with it either, bar Bertha, though matchups like Volkner and Candice could be better. Jolteon's main appeal is that it's a fast Electric-type, making it ideal against opponents like Wake, Cyrus, and Cynthia, all of which I think are pretty difficult fights. I think Jolteon is decent, but is not something I'd say you should obligatorily use in a Platinum run and doesn't defeat enough opponents to deserve A-tier

Maylene(32): Thunderbolt OHKOes Meditite and 2HKOes the rest. Lucario 3HKOes with Fighting STAB (doesn't like to use Bone Rush, for w/e reasons). If you don't get paralyzed by Force Palm, you are likely sweeping, though Drain Punch turns the 2HKO into a 3HKO and thus may allow Machoke to finish you off.

Wake(37): avoid Quagsire, kill the rest

Byron(41): beats Magneton easily. Specs Thunderbolt is a 3HKO on Bastiodon due to Sitrus Berry. If it spams Stone Edge, you are most likely winning, but Metal Burst will probably hurt

Candice(44): Specs Thunderbolt OHKOes Sneasel on rolls and 2HKOes Froslass. Didn't try Shadow Ball, but don't think it'd change my mind too much.

Cyrus(46): easily beats Crobat, Honchkrow, and Gyarados, though Crobat outspeeds it, so you are unable to take on anything else due to taking damage against it.

Aaron(52): beats Yanmega and Vespiquen. Scizor can be 1v1ed with healing to avoid the QA KO.

Bertha: lol

Flint(52): beats Houndoom while it goes for Sunny Day and can beat Rapidash by barely living a Flare Blitz in the sun and outspeeding and 2HKOing with Specs Thunderbolt

Lucian(52): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOes everything bar Bronzong. You are taking out two mons at best

Cynthia(52): Specs TBolt 2HKOes Spiritomb, Togekiss, and Milotic. You need to heal to beat all of them
I don't know, even based on your logs I'm not sure why Jolteon wouldn't be A tier. It's pretty clearly the best Electric type in the game to me, a tier above Luxray and Magnezone who I think both belong in B.

In the second half of Platinum, I think Wake, Cyrus 3, Lucian and Cynthia are the hardest and perhaps only noteworthy fights. It seems Jolteon can take down at least two Pokémon in each of those fights, which is really quite impressive. And it's not like you're lugging around an Eevee for that long at all.

High speed + Special attacker to abuse Choice Specs + Thunderbolt & Shadow Ball give it pretty much all it needs. Even assessing your own logs I would come to the conclusion of A tier personally.

Roselia
Okay so I am just gonna be blunt and say that Roselia has no absolutely no place in B-tier, yet alone A-tier where the line currently resides. Roselia is consistently mediocre against major fights, failing to sweep any of them. It gets thrashed by Lucian, Flint, and Candice, while getting a KO or two at best against most other opponents bar Bertha, which is its only decent matchup. A worrying matchup was Wake, where I only KOed one Pokemon in spite of the advantage. I didn't use Budew, even though you can use it on Roark, because you are unlikely to evolve Budew in a reasonable timeframe and that's true for any happiness evolution pre-Gen V. Medium Slow growth rate helps it keep up with levels, but that's about the only thing I liked about Roselia. Not to mention that you are stuck with Grass moves for a long time and they get resisted pretty often. As for a rank, I would suggest C / D. D might be a bit too harsh, but I wouldn't rule it out as a possible tier, because Roselia just... doesn't have anything going for it, even things like Psyduck get to shine in a few matchups later on and are at least decent against route trainers.
That's quite a hot take. I don't fully disagree, I've spoken before about Tangrowth's issues in this game and I think Roserade suffers from somewhat similar problems. However, if I were to rank the noteworthy Grass types' performances in this game I would say Torterra is B, Roserade B / C, Tangrowth C, and Leafeon D. Other than Torterra, none of these mons are winning any big matchups against the seven noteworthy trainers in this game in my view (Mars 1, Jupiter 1, Fantina, Wake, Cyrus 3, Lucian, Cynthia). But Roserade's route clearing is at least worth noting as relatively fast with a STAB Sludge Bomb off 125 base Special Attack. That gives it a slight edge over the slow, lack of secondary STAB Tangrowth and a considerable edge over the incredibly flawed Leafeon.

D tier seems way too harsh. I could potentially see C but if so, I think especially Leafeon's placement should be readdressed. It definitely does not belong in the same tier as Roserade.

Edit: I forgot about Abomasnow when ranking the relevant Grass types; I'd put it behind Tangrowth to be honest as a C / D mon. Anyway I don't think my argument regarding your Roserade placement was particularly well worded. Dragged too many other mons into this discussion rather than focusing on Roserade's flaws/merits alone. I'll let others chime in, but I would honestly lean towards it being more B than C, leave alone D.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
I don't know, even based on your logs I'm not sure why Jolteon wouldn't be A tier. It's pretty clearly the best Electric type in the game to me, a tier above Luxray and Magnezone who I think both belong in B.
I think it's not so much a matter of me finding flaws with Jolteon's performance as much as it is me not finding enough good points for me to consider A-tier. I guess you are giving more value to the fights you mentioned, which is fine. I am still getting used to tiering things here, so I don't expect everyone to agree with my nominations. But still, the way I see things, I'd rather have it in B-tier currently, unless I have a change of heart or something in the future when I get more accustomized to tiering here

as for Roselia, as I said, I felt D-tier might be harsh too, but avoided ruling it out since Roselia's issues are numerous. I don't think it should be B-tier at all, because the logs clearly display a mediocre performance and even the field performance is shaky because you have exclusively Grass-type moves for a while

===

Anyways, I started my new run and made it past Mars's Purugly last I played. Turtwig sweeps Roark, as you'd expect, and both Grotle and Staravia can 1v1 Mars's Purugly, so that's nice.
 
Honestly even with the good Movepool i think Snover/Aboma is E Worthy, not only they come rather late, but Also have Middling stats and a Horrible Typing, Matchup Wise, Aboma may contribute against Bertha coz of weakness and abundance of slow mons on her team(but hey, that Gliscor with fire fang can severly dent Aboma), it Sucks against Flint, and even with beating the Bug/Flying types Aaron can dent you, Lucian mons have Super effective coverage to kill you, and if you want a Ice type to kill that Garchomp, you could take a good chunk of damage with brick break, it Sucks against Volkner(all his Pokemon carry Super effective Coverage though you would not mind Iron Tail from Jolteon because it is Accuracy sucks and it runs of his low base Attack). Snow Warning is an ability that could be fun to use but it damages your team. i tried it and it sucks, **Snover Should Remain E Tier**. based on my experience
 
okay so I did a run with Chimchar / Alakazam (not Kazza, don't use Kazza) / Psyduck / Jolteon / Roselia (not Budew, don't use Budew) / Swinub. Although this is my first run of this game (well, technically, I played it years ago as part of a challenge, but I was like 15 or so lul, no memories anyways), I feel pretty confident with my nominations, especially after I got some handholding privately when I wasn't aware of what to do

For transparency purposes, here's how I came up and will come up with my nominations. All of them take into account Gym Leader and E4 matchups. In addition, I give "bonuses" to Pokemon that can beat Mars #1's Purugly, Jupiter #1's Skuntank, Cyrus #3 (or perform well against him, doesn't matter), and Cynthia (or perform well against her, doesn't matter) but I won't necessarily penalize a Pokemon for not doing much to those. I didn't bother with Barry, since I had the understanding that he wasn't that difficult early on and it seems like he's not that hard to sweep either. I think I get enough data elsewhere to the point that Barry would be a waste of time for me. For similar reasons, I don't bother testing the other Cyrus or Admin fights, since they seem way too easy for me to really consider those impactful for a Pokemon's ranking.

I understand that not everyone will be happy with me nilly-willy deciding not to test those, but I don't have the energy to test the entirety of the game, so I'd like to focus on the more important fights.

When testing, I aimed to keep my levels the same as the ace. The exceptions are Jupiter's Skuntank, where it's impossible if you level match Gardenia (also, I know my Monferno was slightly overleveled, I basically forgot the fight existed and thus my level wasn't prepared for that), Cyrus #3, because I was told that it was normal to be underleveled there and decided to respect that, and Volkner, because I thought that it was normal to be overleveled (and didn't know that there were trainers ahead, so for future runs, I will level match him too, only Zam got impacted by this anyways). Furthermore, I may from time to time overlevel by one or two levels if I have a good reason to do that (e.g. new move or evolution). I decided to be level 52 for the Elite Four. As a side note, I used tons of hacking to keep my team properly leveled, this is so I can run six mons at once and provide more results at once. All Pokemon have 20 IVs across the board and a neutral nature, unless it's an in-game trade or something, in which case those match their corresponding data.

Logs are at the end of the post. With that said, here are my nominations:

Chimchar
Chimchar was all-around great. Being a starter that is very consistent is probably one of the best Pokemon you can ever use in any in-game team. Chimchar wins a lot of fights, including Roark, Mars #1, Gardenia, Jupiter #1's Skuntank (how much my level 24 affected this, idek), Byron, Candice, Volkner if you start in Blaze range, Aaron, and Flint with SD or maybe Earthquake. It is decent in every other matchup bar Lucian and Wake, which seem to be very difficult anyways, so it's somewhat expected. The line didn't require tons of TMs, mainly Flamethrower for a strong STAB (especially if you find Flame Wheel at Maylene awkward) and Grass Knot for Bertha and a few other threats you may need it for. SD or EQ as well if Flint is an important matchup for you. All in all, assuming that the Flamethrower TM isn't a huge issue for it, Chimchar deserves S-tier. It is incredibly consistent and sweeps a lot of fights, being decent elsewhere, which is an incredible feat for a starter Pokemon, which is going to get you through other important parts of the games even if they aren't major fights.

Abra (Trade)
Let me first say that Alakazam happens to be one of my favorite Pokemon (alongside Gengar and Glalie, Rotom being my favorite). This is because what I am going to say really pains me to say this. I do not think that Alakazam is S-tier in Platinum and think it should be in A-tier. Alakazam is a decent Pokemon as a whole and probably one of the best options for the games, but man, I cannot deny that this thing has very apparent flaws, which are mostly related to consistency (or lack thereof in some instances) in its performance. It needs Psybeam to reliably sweep Gardenia and fails to sweep on multiple instances, like a majority of the E4 bar Lucian, Byron, and Candice unless you go with that inconsistent strategy I came up with. It does sweep Wake and Mars #1. However, it should be noted that you need Inner Focus for the latter and you have no way of knowing which ability it is until you catch Abra, so this somewhat neutralizes this matchup. With that said, it gets its best moves naturally, though it will want a few TMs for a full performance, and is very easy to level up thanks to Med Slow. It is a great Pokemon, but I cannot really call it S-tier, as it's very obvious that it has to be supported occassionally to make it through the game.

Psyduck
I am not sure what it's doing in B-tier, because my experience with Psyduck doesn't scream B-tier at all. Instead, I want to suggest dropping Psyduck to C-tier. Although Psyduck comes very early, it takes a while for it to start performing impressively in fights. It sweeps Roark, bu that's about it for most of the game. It can hold its ground on the field, so it's not a nightmare to grind until evolution, but even Golduck won't really stand out in major fights outside of getting KOs on the non-ace Pokemon (bar Byron). It gains some relevancy at the E4 with its Flint and Bertha matchups, but Golduck doesn't really exist outside of those and even though it's not bad with Specs and Surf, Golduck isn't really a significant force before getting those. I think C-tier makes more sense for it, because Psyduck is somewhat average ultimately, which to me is basically C-tier.

Eevee (Jolteon)
I think this one is also placed too high. While Jolteon is actually capable of impressive feats, I wouldn't say it performs well enough for A-tier and I think it should drop to B-tier. Jolteon doesn't really sweep fights, but I don't think I've had a bad matchup with it either, bar Bertha, though matchups like Volkner and Candice could be better. Jolteon's main appeal is that it's a fast Electric-type, making it ideal against opponents like Wake, Cyrus, and Cynthia, all of which I think are pretty difficult fights. I think Jolteon is decent, but is not something I'd say you should obligatorily use in a Platinum run and doesn't defeat enough opponents to deserve A-tier

Roselia
Okay so I am just gonna be blunt and say that Roselia has no absolutely no place in B-tier, yet alone A-tier where the line currently resides. Roselia is consistently mediocre against major fights, failing to sweep any of them. It gets thrashed by Lucian, Flint, and Candice, while getting a KO or two at best against most other opponents bar Bertha, which is its only decent matchup. A worrying matchup was Wake, where I only KOed one Pokemon in spite of the advantage. I didn't use Budew, even though you can use it on Roark, because you are unlikely to evolve Budew in a reasonable timeframe and that's true for any happiness evolution pre-Gen V. Medium Slow growth rate helps it keep up with levels, but that's about the only thing I liked about Roselia. Not to mention that you are stuck with Grass moves for a long time and they get resisted pretty often. As for a rank, I would suggest C / D. D might be a bit too harsh, but I wouldn't rule it out as a possible tier, because Roselia just... doesn't have anything going for it, even things like Psyduck get to shine in a few matchups later on and are at least decent against route trainers.

Swinub
ok so this is pretty bad as a whole. Its first problem is that it comes after six Gyms, so it's already in a bad position when it comes to its ranking. Second problem is grinding it up. Not only is Swinub pretty bad if you don't throw the EQ TM on it (Mamoswine learns it at level 40, but you are creating yourself some headaches trying to use a Swinub without EQ), but getting a level 34 to 40 with a Slow growth rate and no movepool outside of EQ is... not pleasant. Mamoswine will become a bit more usable, but it will still want the EQ TM to streamline the grinding process. Now, in terms of major fights, this thing doesn't have it well either. Most matchups are incredibly mediocre for Mamoswine, with Volkner being the only one where I KOed more than two Pokemon with it. It's way too slow for the end-game opponents and as a result gets overwhelmed quickly. All in all, don't use this at all. D-tier seems fine, but I really want to suggest E-tier at least to be considered, because I think everything in this game is against Swinub and it barely gets to do much, though I realize that E-tier might be harsh, just don't place it beyond the low tiers.

note: some logs don't feature Cynthia, this means that the Pokemon performs bad there and there's nothing valuable to mention or I never tried the Pokemon. Feel free to ask for more details if curious.
Infernape

Roark(14): Mach Punch 2HKOes Geodude while it sets up SR. Taunt against Onix to prevent Screech, then Leer it so Mach Punch can 2HKO. Even if you took a crit from Onix, you can live a Headbutt from Cranidos, which is 2HKOed by Mach Punch

Mars(17): if you insist on beating Zubat, I recommend Taunting it to prevent Toxic, then 3HKOing it with Ember. Purugly is 3HKOed by Mach Punch (feel free to use Leer to turn it into a 2HKO). Purugly fails to KO you with Fake Out and two Scratches, though Monferno barely lives those (left at 5 HP)

Gardenia(22): sweeps

Jupiter(24): outspeeds Skuntank. You can Taunt turn one, forcing it to spam Night Slash. Flame Wheel is a 4HKO without Sitrus Berry, wheres Night Slash is a 5HKO with no crits. As a whole, you win if no crits whatsoever. I am wondering if Leer + Mach Punch could help if you happen to be outsped, didn't have Leer unfortunately

Fantina(27): Flame Wheel 2HKOes everything but Mismagius (2HKO with Blaze, but turned into a 3HKO by Sitrus Berry). Haunter can be slightly annoying, but you beat 2/3 of her team with little difficulty.

Maylene(32): even with Flamethrower, you are unlikely to sweep. Flamethrower 2HKOes everything bar Lucario. Meditite Fake Outs and Rock Tombs you. Lucario goes for Drain Punch and puts you in red, which allows Flamethrower to OHKO Lucario. However, it still doesn't OHKO Machoke, which then KOes you

Wake(37): beats only Quagsire by OHKOing with Grass Knot. Floatzel 2HKOes with Aqua Jet and is 2HKOd by Grass Knot

Byron(41): CC on Bastiodon, Flamethrower on the rest. Nothing more to be said

Candice(44): outspeeds and OHKOes everything with Specs Flamethrower. Demolition mode activated. Worth mentioning that Abomasnow comes out last, so no Snow Cloak worries either.

Cyrus(46): outspeeds and OHKOes Houndoom with CC. Weavile is OHKOed easily but damages you a bit. You outspeed Honchkrow and OHKO it with Specs Flamethrower if you are in Blaze range. As a whole, you can take out 3/5 if you play around with Infernape's HP a bit

Volkner(48): outspeeds everything. Flamethrower seems to 2HKO everything consistently, so if you start with low HP and hold Specs, you can outspeed and OHKO everything, otherwise, you have to deal with Jolteon's Thunder Wave unless you have a Cheri Berry. Close Combat OHKOes Raichu, though.

Aaron(52): ouspeeds everything. Specs Flamethrower 2HKOes Drapion and OHKOes the rest. Easy sweep

Bertha(53): Specs Grass Knot 2HKOes Whiscash and OHKOes the rest bar Gliscor. You can live an Earth Power to the point that you can live two turn of sandstorm.

Flint(53): CC OHKOes Houndoom and 2HKOes the rest while outspeeding everything. This is probably the one matchup where you want SD, since Infernape isn't that great otherwise due to dying easily afterwards. EQ might help here too

Lucian(53): beats Bronzong and then gets smashed by the rest.

Cynthia(53): you can try setting up Calm Mind to the max against Spiritomb, but this will require at least two healing items, possibly more if you get SpD drops or you don't want to heal offscreen once you switch it out. Anyways, assuming you are at +6, you outspeed and OHKO Togekiss (I was level 54 when I faced it) and Spiritomb with Flamethrower. Grass Knot OHKOes Milotic. Garchomp comes out and forces you to switch out. You can then either just outspeed and OHKO Lucario with CC and accept a loss against Roserade or you can CM once, then OHKO Lucario and Roserade. This will require you to be healthy when facing Lucario, though, to avoid an ESpeed KO


Alakazam

Mars(17): Confusion 3HKOes Purugly. If you have Inner Focus, you can waste its turn with Fake Out. Then you live one Faint Attack and you are faster. So with Inner Focus, Alakazam wins here

Gardenia(22): best way to use it here is to beat Turtwig and Roserade (2HKO with Confusion) and to skip Cherrim, as Leech Seed trolls you really hard. If you overlevel for Psybeam, you can probably just blast everything away (Psybeam would OHKO Roserade and Turtwig). Cherrim is a 2HKO on rolls with Confusion, but Leech Seed turns it into a 3HKO.

Fantina(26): Psybeam OHKOes Haunter and 2HKOes Duskull. Despite both packing priority moves, neither seems keen on using them on Zam

Maylene(32): Mind Plate Psybeam spam wins easily. Lucario is 2HKOed, rest is OHKOed. Lives one Metal Claw.

Wake(37): there's a way to sweep here, but you need Shock Wave. Basically, Reflect turn one and CM once. Gyarados 3HKOes you with Reflect up. OHKO Gyarados. Floatzel would normally KO you with Aqua Jet, but Reflect seems to dissuade it from doing so, thus you outspeed and OHKO it with Shock Wave too. Quagsire then is OHKOed by +1 Mind Plate Psybeam

Byron(41): you need Focus Blast to win here, otherwise, you are only beating Magneton consistently.

Candice(44): you can sweep, but inconsistently. You OHKO Sneasel with Focus Blast then CM on Froslass as it DTeams. Then you OHKO it with Mind Plate Psychic (you outspeed). Aboma is put in red and then it KOes itself with Wood Hammer, which you barely survive. Then Piloswine dies to Psychic

Cyrus(46): beats Houndoom with Focus Blast and Crobat, avoid the rest

Volkner(48): at this level, Specs Psychic misses the OHKO on pretty much everything, I guess if you are less underleveled than I am, you can sweep, since you outspeed everything (at level 48, Specs Psychic puts everything in red)

Aaron(52): outspeeds and OHKOes Yanmega and Heracross. The rest beat you.

Bertha(53): Specs Grass Knot 2HKOes Whiscash and OHKOes the rest bar Gliscor.

Flint(53): pretty bad. You beat Infernape, but everything else lives one Specs Psychic and either OHKOes you or puts you in range for a priority move. Magmortar is 3HKOed due to berry and 2HKOes with Flamethrower

Lucian(53): CM to the max against Mr. Mime and spam Shadow Ball. Bronzong is OHKOed if there's no Light Screen. You outspeed everything bar his own Alakazam


Roark(14): outspeeds everything. Cranidos is 2HKOed, rest is OHKOed

Mars(17): didn't bother, don't think it's gonna do much to Purugly unless you want to use Disable or something

Gardenia: haha no

Fantina(26): can 1v1 either Duskull or Haunter, but Duskull generally damages you to the point Haunter finishes the deed.

Maylene(33): beats Meditite and Machoke. Lucario 1v1s with Drain Punch spam unless you throw in a Hyper Potion

Wake(37): I didn't this here too much because what are you really going to do, especially when lacking Specs or Surf?

Byron(41): Specs Surf go brr

Candice(44): beats Sneasel and Piloswine. Candice has a tendency to switch in Abomasnow while you are fighting Sneasel. Froslass is 2HKOed by Specs Surf, but you are likely losing to it if you are trying to sweep

Cyrus(46): beats Houndoom, but that's about it, I didn't test this thoroughly since I am sort of getting tired of getting KOed after one-two KOs

Volkner(48): nah, Specs Surf doesn't OHKO anything and you get overwhelmed quickly

Aaron(52): outspeeds and OHKOes Yanmega with Specs Ice Beam. Then you can either beat Vespiquen with that too or 1v1 Drapion with Specs Surf

Bertha(52): spam Specs Surf and you win. Whiscash is 2HKOed, the rest is OHKOed. Gliscor is faster, but fails to KO you even if you took an Earth Power. Hippowdon comes out last, so no worries about sandstorm chip

Flint(53): Specs Surf OHKOes everything but Magmortar. Rapidash and Infernape are faster, but they cannot KO you together. Magmortar finishes you off, though

Lucian(53): beats Mr. Mime and Bronzong, avoid the rest


Maylene(32): Thunderbolt OHKOes Meditite and 2HKOes the rest. Lucario 3HKOes with Fighting STAB (doesn't like to use Bone Rush, for w/e reasons). If you don't get paralyzed by Force Palm, you are likely sweeping, though Drain Punch turns the 2HKO into a 3HKO and thus may allow Machoke to finish you off.

Wake(37): avoid Quagsire, kill the rest

Byron(41): beats Magneton easily. Specs Thunderbolt is a 3HKO on Bastiodon due to Sitrus Berry. If it spams Stone Edge, you are most likely winning, but Metal Burst will probably hurt

Candice(44): Specs Thunderbolt OHKOes Sneasel on rolls and 2HKOes Froslass. Didn't try Shadow Ball, but don't think it'd change my mind too much.

Cyrus(46): easily beats Crobat, Honchkrow, and Gyarados, though Crobat outspeeds it, so you are unable to take on anything else due to taking damage against it.

Aaron(52): beats Yanmega and Vespiquen. Scizor can be 1v1ed with healing to avoid the QA KO.

Bertha: lol

Flint(52): beats Houndoom while it goes for Sunny Day and can beat Rapidash by barely living a Flare Blitz in the sun and outspeeding and 2HKOing with Specs Thunderbolt

Lucian(52): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOes everything bar Bronzong. You are taking out two mons at best

Cynthia(52): Specs TBolt 2HKOes Spiritomb, Togekiss, and Milotic. You need to heal to beat all of them


Fantina(26): 1v1s the Duskull with no problems. Haunter is annoying due to hax moves and Mismagius beats you unless you get really lucky with GrassWhistle.

Maylene(32): beats everything but Lucario

Wake(37): beats only Quagsire, unless there's a Miracle Seed that I missed that could have helped me. Gyarados 1v1s it by 3HKOing with Bite and ouspeeding. Quagsire dies easily, but Floatzel barely lives a Giga Drain and 2HKOes with Ice Fang while outspeeding

Byron(42): Specs Petal Dance OHKOes Steelix and 2HKOes Bastiodon. Could be worse, but not the most ideal way to perform here

Candice(44): beats Sneasel and Piloswine. The rest crush it

Cyrus(46): didn't try it, since the fight looks just way too bad for it

Volkner(48): seems to lose to Electivire, but the rest shouldn't be difficult with Specs Giga Drain, especially since it tends to 2HKO them.

Aaron(52): even with Sunny Day and Weather Ball, you won't be doing much due to Yanmega, Scizor, and Drapion all causing you problems (Yanmega hits you hard with Air Slash and has DTeam, Drapion comes right after that, Scizor finishes you off with priority).

Bertha(52): beats most things, avoid Gliscor. Hippowdon may be able to win, since it lives one Specs Giga Drain and uses Yawn while healing with a Full Restore

Flint: haha no

Lucian: didn't try because what are you doing with Roserade anyways? Shadow Ball isn't going to result in a sweep or anything of relevance, so...


Candice(44): beats only Sneasel and Piloswine. Abomasnow is obvious and Froslass lives a Soft Sand EQ and is faster, so it can finish you off if you took on Piloswine

Cyrus(46): outsped and OHKOed by Houndoom. Weavile is 2HKOed by Soft Sand EQ and Crobat is 2HKOed by Ice Shard. Honchkrow tends to beat you if you are in range for Heat Wave.

Volkner(48): EQ OHKOes everything. However, once you take an Iron Tail from Jolteon, Raichu can KO you with Focus Blast. Electivire fails to do that with Fire Punch and Luxray is slower, so you are beating 3/4 of his team, for most parts

Aaron(52): click Rock Slide on Yanmega. If it U-turns out, it will bring in Scizor, which then dies to EQ (if not, skip Scizor). Drapion dies to EQ and Vespiquen dies to Rock Slide as well

Bertha(52): Soft Sand EQ OHKOes Golem and 2HKOes most of the others bar Gliscor, which is 2HKOed by Ice Shard (it is faster and can finish you off with EQ). Hippowdon is 3HKOed by Ice Fang

Flint(52): outspeeds and kills Houndoom and Flareon. The rest fry it, though

Lucian(52): it is way too slow to do much here, so it doesn't do much here

Cynthia(52): 1v1s Garchomp with Ice Fang + Ice Shard, doesn't seem to do much else, though
so here are my noms without looking too much at my logs


I am planning on doing another run with Turtwig / Starly / Buizel / Rotom / Gengar / Giratina. My plan is to provide tests for most high tiers, I don't have much intention on testing most of the lower tiers, since those seem to be fairly obvious
I fully agree with the idea that Alakazam is more of an A rather than an S in Platinum, partially because of its iffy performances on Mars 1, Jupiter 1 and Fantina. One thing I am curious about though are your issues with Kazza, since you said at the start of your post that you shouldn't use it.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
I fully agree with the idea that Alakazam is more of an A rather than an S in Platinum, partially because of its iffy performances on Mars 1, Jupiter 1 and Fantina. One thing I am curious about though are your issues with Kazza, since you said at the start of your post that you shouldn't use it.
The obedience level cap is set to level 10 until you beat Gardenia (which is then upgraded to 30), making Kazza mostly unusable until then. This means that it's not a reliable answer to Mars's Purugly and will struggle to contribute against Gardenia. If you don't care that much about those fights, it's probably an acceptable alternative, especially since it skips the processs of catching an Abra with decent IVs, but if you want a full performance from Alakazam, using Kazza is not the way to go
 
I understand. Last time I used Kazza, I saved until I got the bike so that I could get a Machop east of Eterna to trade. Meaning that it obeyed me when I first got it. I'm not sure if whether or not catching Machop at that point changes anything or not. I was also using four Pokemon in the run, meaning that it was very difficult to keep Kazza tame until the sixth gym. So take with my experiences what you will.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
hi, it's me again, I finished my run with Turtwig / Starly / Buizel / Gastly (Trade) / Rotom / Giratina. Take my nominations with a grain of salt if you disagree, I have logs anyways. Cynthia is only featured in Torterra, since the rest just fold to her and I couldn't make them do much that would be worth logging.

anyways, here are my thoughts:

Turtwig
This one is a bit tricky to tier, since its performance is somewhat fluctuating, though I am confident this isn't S-tier. It starts out greatly, sweeping Roark and 1v1ing Mars's Purugly while also having some use against Gardenia. It's meh against Fantina, but sweeps Maylene and Byron with no problems. Wake is a shaky matchup, since you rely on luck to beat 2/3 of his team and Candice isn't nice to you either. It sweeps Volkner and crushes Flint, but the other fights are very shaky; Aaron's Heracross stops your sweep if you don't use Stone Edge (which is inaccurate), Bertha is tricky to set up against beyond Whiscash, as Gliscor stops your sweeps too, and Lucian is Lucian. It can sweep Cynthia, but it requires enormous amount of set up and three healing items to achieve this

Personally, I thought about the rank for a long time and I feel like B-tier is a safer option than A-tier. Turtwig is, with no doubt, one of the few Grass starters to actually be decent, but I feel like I would be very biased to say A-tier when it's mediocre in a number of matchups like Fantina, Candice, Wake, and Lucian, while having a very clear 4MSS, which causes it to lose to opponents if it lacks the correct move. Although I don't care that much about Team Galactic and won't use it against its rank, it is important to note that the Zubat line is common and Bronzor appears on the Commanders' team pretty often, so you have some issues there. I did try to be fair to it, but the more I advanced into the game, the more I started seeing significant issues with its performance, so it's hard for me to call it A-tier, but that might just be me.

Starly
I am going to put some doubts on S-tier, although I know I will probably be in the minority here, so I won't exactly go great lengths to convince people of that, so I will just lay out my reasonings for that and then people can do whatever they feel is the best for it. Starly starts out relatively well, with an early Medium Slow growth rate and a great Purugly matchup. It can also sweep Gardenia, though I noticed that it's not always guaranteed. However, I felt throughout the game that Starly wasn't dominant, even after I got Staraptor. It was never useless in any fight, always picking up at least two KOs per boss (with few exceptions), but I never felt it carried me through the game. Thе E4 performance was pretty disappointing, with Aaron being the only matchup I felt was decent. Again, I know that I will probably not convince anyone of my doubts, but I will still make my vote for A-tier so at least we have some light on its issues (even if you disagree with A-tier).

Buizel
This one really depends on how much you weight the Fantina sweep, since I'd say this is the main reason to ever use Floatzel. For the purposes of this analysis, I will ignore Fantina and apply it at the end. Performance-wise, Floatzel is very similar to Psyduck in that they are mostly ehh before getting Specs Surf with some usefulness against Maylene. In fact, I'd say they are very similar as a whole and if it wasn't for the Fantina matchup, I'd argue for them to be the same tier. Floatzel typically gets a KO or two before the League, with only Byron being a sweep. It's decent for Bertha and Flint, but mediocre elsewhere. I think Buizel being one tier above Psyduck is fair due to the Fantina matchup. Since I said C-tier on Psyduck, I will therefore say B-tier on Buizel. HOWEVER, as I said, this really depends on how much you value the Fantina matchup; I tend to give a tier boost for such cases, rather than two tiers boost, but this is a matter of tiering philosophy, so I will leave myself open for changing my vote.

Gaslty (Trade)
From what I experienced, B-tier seems fair and won't object to it. Gengar is decent at places, but man, it does want Focus Blast often, especially if you don't want to buy two GC TMs for it. Even then, its E4 performance was laughable, it crumbled to Lucian and couldn't even OHKO or outspeed most things there. I don't think Gengar has much going for it to warrant a rise to A-tier, unlike in other games where it typically eats most opponents for breakfst, and the Gastly period, while tolerable, was certainly problematic due to how frail it was before evolving. So yeah, B-tier is fine by me, no objections here

Rotom
I am not sure what people think of Rotom, but I felt that Rotom is *very* similar to Jolteon in terms of performance. Both come at level 20 and mostly spam Specs TBolt (both even get Shadow Ball through TMs, funnily). Both are handy against Wake, Aaron, and Cyrus #3. Rotom is better for Maylene, as it sweeps easily, wheres Jolteon relies on Force Palm not paralyzing it. Jolteon's higher Speed does let it nab few KOs more than Rotom, but as a whole, I didn't feel that Rotom performed too differently. With that said, if we were to keep Jolteon in A-tier (which I wouldn't agree with, but that's just my opinion), I would definitely advocate for a rise to B-tier, because a two-tier difference seems a lot for two Pokemon that perform similarly to each other. If anything, I feel like they should be the same tier, even if Jolteon gets some more KOs at the League due to Rotom's typing also being a bit more handy at places (like Fantina). With that said, I also have to note that Rotom happens to be my favorite Pokemon, so I may very well be biased in its favor, but, hopefully, logs speak for themselves.

Giratina
I regret using it without better knowledge of how to tier in this game, but anyways, here we go. Giratina's biggest selling point is that it's consistently not useless. It's never truly bad in any matchup other than Cynthia. It gets a few KOs against each boss fight, though it requires healing at places. It won't sweep any fight, but it's performed better than most of my team against the E4. If the consistency is the reason why it's A-tier, I would say that's an acceptable decision, but if you are expecting this to demolish the rest of the game akin to Emerald Rayquaza, I will just say that this is far from the reality. I wouldn't rule out B-tier myself, but won't really object to any tier either.

next team: Piplup / Gible / Gligar / Scizor / Porygon-Z / Azelf

Torterra

Roark(14): Withdraw twice on Geodude to counter Onix's Screech. OHKO Geodude with Absorb to recover the damage from Rock Throw. 2HKO Onix with Razor Leaf, which is healed by Roark after the first one, but dies anyways. Cranidos will Leer turn one and then 3HKO with Headbutt, at which point you win if no flinches by 2HKOing with Absorb + Razor Leaf.

Mars(18): can easily win against Purugly by Cursing once then spamming Razor Leaf

Gardenia(22): Curse twice on Turtwig and 3HKO it with Bite behind Reflect. After you beat Turtwig, Reflect is over and Bite 2HKOes the rest. Roserade is defeated, but forces you to heal to beat Cherrim

Fantina(26): Bite 2HKOes Duskull and Haunter. Setting up Curse on either is pretty hard due to burn / confusion

Maylene(32): EQ spam wins easily, only Machoke avoids an OHKO. Easy sweep

Wake(37): the only way to beat Gyarados (as far as I've tried without healing) is to SD twice and OHKO with Razor Leaf after getting put in Overgrow range. Gyarados typically does that by going for two Waterfalls and one Brine, which put it in red. Floatzel always wins in realistic scenarios and Quagsire is a breakfast for Torterra. Meh matchup, Gyarados is likely to flinch you at least once and force you to heal.

Byron(41): EQ spam go brr

Candice(44): nope, cannot set up on anything and dies to Ice STAB moves.

Cyrus(46): beats Houndoom

Volkner(50): Rock Polish then spam EQ.

Aaron(52): even if you set up SD and Rock Polish, you won't sweep, as Heracross lives one Rock Slide (likely dies to Stone Edge, but accuracy issues) and kills you. You do beat whatever comes before it (or after it if you land a Stone Edge).

Bertha(52): +6 Rock Slide fails to OHKO Gliscor, unfortunately. You do kill Whiscash before that. Setting up on Hippo is not a good idea due to Yawn

Flint(52): you live one Flamethrower from Houndoom, so you can set up one Rock Polish and spam EQ. Infernape is the only one that doesn't get OHKOed. However, it is put in red, so Flare Blitz recoil will KO it.

Lucian(53): you can Rock Polish once and SD to the max against Mr. Mime, then OHKO it and Espeon. Bronzong comes in, forcing you to switch out. Torterra, if healed offscreen, could try SDing and Rock Polishing on Gallade if that is lured after Bronzong, as Gallade only 3HKOes with Psycho Cut to outspeed and OHKO Alakazam and Gallade. Alakazam itself lives an unboosted EQ, so going against it generally results in your loss no matter what.

Cynthia(53): you can sweep, but you need luck and three healing items - two to set up SD to the max and one Rock Polish and one to avoid ESpeed KO. If you can set those up, you outspeed and OHKO everything. Spiritomb 3HKOes with Silver Wind, but your sweep is more-or-less ruined if it gets an omniboost.


Staraptor

Mars(17): can 1v1 Purugly. Thanks to Intimidate, you can live a few Scratches while you are weakening it with Wing Attack. After three Wing Attacks (iirc?), you can finish it off with Quick Attack.

Gardenia(22): Wing Attack 2HKOes everything with no Reflect up. In general, Staravia sweeps if it's healthy enough to live two Magical Leaves from Roserade, since it's faster and the other members can chip you due to living longer with Reflect. However, things like Turtwig and Cherrim prefer to use status moves, so this is moreso an edge case.

Jupiter(23): Return and Night Slash are 4HKOs on their respective targets. The fight is slightly in favor of Skuntank due to increased crits + possible hax moves like Smokescreen

Fantina(26): Duskull burns it, but is 2HKOed by Wing Attack. Haunter is an easy kill, not minding confusion. Wing Attack seems to be a 4HKO on Mismagius due to Sitrus Berry and it seems to 3HKO with Psybeam. Combine it with its tendency to confuse you, this matchup is shaky unless you resort to Double Team or something

Maylene(34): got this to evolution because why not, it's in the Medium Slow growth rate, so it's pretty doable. Anyways, Aerial Ace OHKOes Meditite and 2HKOes Machoke, while CC OHKOes Lucario. Lucario doesn't deal much damage, so the Rock Tomb Speed drop from Machoke isn't an issue

Wake(37): it can 1v1 Floatzel by outspeeding and 2HKOing it with Return. However, Quagsire finishes it off, unless it misses Rock Tomb, in which case you win again. Gyarados is a no, obviously, unless you like -1 Attack or fodders.

Byron(41): CC spam seems to win. Steelix is 2HKOed, but barely misses the OHKO with Ice Fang even though I am at -3.

Candice(44): CC OHKOes Sneasel and Piloswine. Aboma lives one and kills you with Avalanche. Avoid Froslass

Cyrus(46): beats Houndoom and Honchkrow

Volkner(50): beats Luxray and Raichu

Aaron(52): beats Yanmega, Vespiquen, and Heracross with Brave Bird. You could also 1v1 Scizor, but the recoil means that you may not be able to take out any other Pokemon if you KO yourself with the next attack (since Scizor is put in red and is healed)

Bertha(52): Return 2HKOes Whiscash and CC 2HKOes Golem, which loses to you if it goes for Sandstorm. Gliscor typically finishes it off, wheres Rhyperior and Hippowdon 1v1 you unless you get really lucky with misses.

Flint(52): outspeeds and OHKOes Houndoom with CC. Rapidash can also be 1v1ed, but the rest OHKO you, with Infernape being faster, while the rest living one Brave Bird

Lucian(52): you can OHKO some things here like Mr. Mime with Brave Bird, but they generally outspeed and damage you hard, meaning you KO yourself with recoil if you take on anything


Floatzel

Gardenia: no

Fantina(26): Crunch 2HKOes Mismagius and OHKOes the rest. You outspeed Mismagius and aren't even 2HKOed by Magical Leaf!

Maylene(32): Crunch 2HKOes Meditite. Use Agility if you get hit by Rock Tomb. Lucario comes in after and is 2HKOed by Dig, while failing to KO you. Machoke finishes you off, but not before you put it in yellow

Wake(37): at best beats Quagsire. His own Floatzel wins the mirror matchup due to Sitrus Berry, but if you have your own, you may be able to win due to outspeeding

Byron(41): Specs Surf go brr

Candice(44): Brick Break OHKOes Sneasel. Avoid Abomasnow. Outspeeds and 2HKOes Froslass with Crunch. Piloswine dies to Surf. Somewhat good matchup

Cyrus(46): at best beats either Weavile or Houndoom, but not both at once

Volkner(50): beats Luxray and Raichu with Dig. Former is 2HKOed, latter is OHKOed, but the former also fails to OHKO you and you are faster than both.

Aaron(52): even with Rain Dance, Waterfall is a 2HKO at best, even failing to 2HKO threats like Drapion.

Bertha(52): Specs Surf wins. Whiscash is 2HKOed, the rest is OHKOed.

Flint(53): set up rain on Houndoom and spam Waterfall. You OHKO everything until Flareon, when rain is over, which lives a normal Surf and finishes you off

Lucian(53): nope, you get trashed in a fight where everything 2HKOes and you cannot OHKO


Gengar

Gardenia(22): Night Shade spam beats Turtwig and Cherrim. Roserade beats you, but if you skip Cherrim, you can Curse it.

Fantina(26): it is possible to 1v1 Mismagius but you rely on rolls to do that. Shadow Punch is a 2HKO on Mismagius, which could turn into a 3HKO due to Sitrus Berry, depending on rolls. You are faster and live one Shadow Ball from full. You can also use Gengar to take on the other Pokemon, but they prevent you from 1v1ing Mismagius

Maylene(33): best way to use it here is to just buy Psychic and spam it, which results in a sweep. Without it, you 2HKO Machoke and OHKO Meditite with Shadow Ball. Machoke's Rock Tomb, combined with Steel typing, prevent Gengar from beating Lucario otherwise. Focus Blast is also an option to nuke Lucario, though it's inaccurate. However, Metal Claw is a 3HKO from full, so you may be able to afford a miss

Wake(37): Gengar always 1v1s Gyarados, even with Shadow Ball. Whoever you beat next depends on if it knows TBolt; if you have TBolt, you can OHKO Gyarados, which allows you to live one Crunch from Floatzel (which is faster) and OHKO it as well. However, Quagsire beats you this way. The Shadow Ball way is a 2HKO on Gyara and forces you to skip Floatzel, meaning that you will be able to 1v1 Quagsire

Byron(41): you need Focus Blast to win here, otherwise, Magneton is the only one you beat consistently. Steelix 1v1s due to living two Specs Shadow Balls and 2HKOing with Flash Cannon after Magneton's Metal Sound (though you could switch out against Bastiodon) and Bastiodon generally 1v1s you

Candice(44): without Focus Blast, you aren't doing much, as Froslass is faster and can finish you off if you took any damage and Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOes Piloswine and Abomasnow.

Cyrus(46): Specs Thunderbolt OHKOes the Flying-types. Crobat is faster and can be annoying with hax, though

Volkner(50): Specs Sludge Bomb OHKOes Raichu and 2HKOes the rest. You beat Raichu and Electivire for sure, Luxray causes problems with Crunch and Jolteon paralyzes you.

Aaron(53): beats Yanmega and Vespiquen, maybe Heracross too, depending on how healthy you are against it

Bertha(53): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOes at best. This lets it beat Whiscash and Golem. Gliscor can be 1v1ed, but if you took on Whiscash, then Hippowdon will have come in and its sandstorm can cause a damaged Gengar to faint against Gliscor.

Flint(53): generally 1v1s Rapidash, the rest just OHKO it and do not get OHKOed by Specs Sludge Bomb (Infernape is faster)


Fantina(26): Shock Wave 2HKOes Haunter and Duskull. Haunter might be able to beat you by finishing you off with Sucker Punch

Maylene(34): Ominous Wind OHKOes Meditite and TBolt 2HKOes the rest. Lucario is an easy kill since you resist every single move it has. Great matchup

Wake(37): TBolt OHKOes Gyara and Floatzel. Floatzel is faster, but you live one Crunch. Quagsire is finishing you off, though, since Ominous Wind is only a 3HKO.

Byron(41): beats only Magneton. Bastiodon 3HKOes with Stone Edge while avoiding a 2HKO from Specs TBolt due to Sitrus Berry and healing helps it last longer

Candice(44) Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOes Abomasnow and Piloswine, the former being a roll for 3HKO. Froslass is faster, so is risky as a whole

Cyrus(46): beats Gyarados, Crobat, and Honchkrow

Volkner(50): beats Raichu and Jolteon for sure. Electivire seems to be a 2HKO on rolls with Specs Shadow Ball. If you don't 2HKO, it will beat you. Luxray is to be avoided due to Crunch

Aaron(52): Specs TBolt beats Vespiquen, Yanmega, and Scizor. Scizor is slower and 2HKOes with Night Slash

Bertha(52): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOes Whiscash and Gliscor, but Whiscash damages you to the point that Gliscor (which is faster) finishes you off. Hippowdon's sand doesn't help either

Flint(52): can 1v1 Rapidash but that's about it

Lucian(52): 1v1s Alakazam, but loses to the rest. Mr. Mime's Light Screen turns Shadow Ball into a 3HKO (Mr. Mime is faster), Bronzong walls it, and the rest are faster and live one Specs Shadow Ball


Volkner(50): Shadow Force OHKOes Raichu and 2HKOes the rest, with Jolteon being 2HKOed by Dragon Claw as well. You get paralyzed and Luxray damages you heavily with Crunch, so a sweep is unlikely without healing.

Aaron(52): Specs Dragon Pulse 2HKOes everything but Scizor. Vespiquen goes for Defend Order, though, so you are unlikely to beat it. Ancient Power might help to nab an OHKO on Yanmega and Vespiquen, but 5 PP + Pressure certainly doesn't help.

Bertha(52): Specs DPulse 2HKOes everything (bar maybe Golem? Didn't really try against it) bar Rhyperior in sand (3HKO). You will need to heal to take on anything after Whiscash and Gliscor.

Flint(52): Specs DPulse 3HKOes Magmortar and Flareon and 2HKOes the rest. Houndoom typically goes for Sunny Day and is slower. You take out 4/5 with one healing, in most cases, though 10 PP might cause you some issues

Lucian(52): Specs Shadow Ball OHKOes Mr. Mime and Alakazam, 3HKOes Bronzong, and 2HKOes the rest. Typically, you beat Mr. Mime and Espeon, switch out against Bronzong, heal offscreen, then bring it back to beat Gallade and Alakazam, which fail to defeat it together.
 
hi, it's me again, I finished my run with Turtwig / Starly / Buizel / Gastly (Trade) / Rotom / Giratina. Take my nominations with a grain of salt if you disagree, I have logs anyways. Cynthia is only featured in Torterra, since the rest just fold to her and I couldn't make them do much that would be worth logging.

anyways, here are my thoughts:

Turtwig
This one is a bit tricky to tier, since its performance is somewhat fluctuating, though I am confident this isn't S-tier. It starts out greatly, sweeping Roark and 1v1ing Mars's Purugly while also having some use against Gardenia. It's meh against Fantina, but sweeps Maylene and Byron with no problems. Wake is a shaky matchup, since you rely on luck to beat 2/3 of his team and Candice isn't nice to you either. It sweeps Volkner and crushes Flint, but the other fights are very shaky; Aaron's Heracross stops your sweep if you don't use Stone Edge (which is inaccurate), Bertha is tricky to set up against beyond Whiscash, as Gliscor stops your sweeps too, and Lucian is Lucian. It can sweep Cynthia, but it requires enormous amount of set up and three healing items to achieve this

Personally, I thought about the rank for a long time and I feel like B-tier is a safer option than A-tier. Turtwig is, with no doubt, one of the few Grass starters to actually be decent, but I feel like I would be very biased to say A-tier when it's mediocre in a number of matchups like Fantina, Candice, Wake, and Lucian, while having a very clear 4MSS, which causes it to lose to opponents if it lacks the correct move. Although I don't care that much about Team Galactic and won't use it against its rank, it is important to note that the Zubat line is common and Bronzor appears on the Commanders' team pretty often, so you have some issues there. I did try to be fair to it, but the more I advanced into the game, the more I started seeing significant issues with its performance, so it's hard for me to call it A-tier, but that might just be me.

Starly
I am going to put some doubts on S-tier, although I know I will probably be in the minority here, so I won't exactly go great lengths to convince people of that, so I will just lay out my reasonings for that and then people can do whatever they feel is the best for it. Starly starts out relatively well, with an early Medium Slow growth rate and a great Purugly matchup. It can also sweep Gardenia, though I noticed that it's not always guaranteed. However, I felt throughout the game that Starly wasn't dominant, even after I got Staraptor. It was never useless in any fight, always picking up at least two KOs per boss (with few exceptions), but I never felt it carried me through the game. Thе E4 performance was pretty disappointing, with Aaron being the only matchup I felt was decent. Again, I know that I will probably not convince anyone of my doubts, but I will still make my vote for A-tier so at least we have some light on its issues (even if you disagree with A-tier).

Buizel
This one really depends on how much you weight the Fantina sweep, since I'd say this is the main reason to ever use Floatzel. For the purposes of this analysis, I will ignore Fantina and apply it at the end. Performance-wise, Floatzel is very similar to Psyduck in that they are mostly ehh before getting Specs Surf with some usefulness against Maylene. In fact, I'd say they are very similar as a whole and if it wasn't for the Fantina matchup, I'd argue for them to be the same tier. Floatzel typically gets a KO or two before the League, with only Byron being a sweep. It's decent for Bertha and Flint, but mediocre elsewhere. I think Buizel being one tier above Psyduck is fair due to the Fantina matchup. Since I said C-tier on Psyduck, I will therefore say B-tier on Buizel. HOWEVER, as I said, this really depends on how much you value the Fantina matchup; I tend to give a tier boost for such cases, rather than two tiers boost, but this is a matter of tiering philosophy, so I will leave myself open for changing my vote.

Gaslty (Trade)
From what I experienced, B-tier seems fair and won't object to it. Gengar is decent at places, but man, it does want Focus Blast often, especially if you don't want to buy two GC TMs for it. Even then, its E4 performance was laughable, it crumbled to Lucian and couldn't even OHKO or outspeed most things there. I don't think Gengar has much going for it to warrant a rise to A-tier, unlike in other games where it typically eats most opponents for breakfst, and the Gastly period, while tolerable, was certainly problematic due to how frail it was before evolving. So yeah, B-tier is fine by me, no objections here

Rotom
I am not sure what people think of Rotom, but I felt that Rotom is *very* similar to Jolteon in terms of performance. Both come at level 20 and mostly spam Specs TBolt (both even get Shadow Ball through TMs, funnily). Both are handy against Wake, Aaron, and Cyrus #3. Rotom is better for Maylene, as it sweeps easily, wheres Jolteon relies on Force Palm not paralyzing it. Jolteon's higher Speed does let it nab few KOs more than Rotom, but as a whole, I didn't feel that Rotom performed too differently. With that said, if we were to keep Jolteon in A-tier (which I wouldn't agree with, but that's just my opinion), I would definitely advocate for a rise to B-tier, because a two-tier difference seems a lot for two Pokemon that perform similarly to each other. If anything, I feel like they should be the same tier, even if Jolteon gets some more KOs at the League due to Rotom's typing also being a bit more handy at places (like Fantina). With that said, I also have to note that Rotom happens to be my favorite Pokemon, so I may very well be biased in its favor, but, hopefully, logs speak for themselves.

Giratina
I regret using it without better knowledge of how to tier in this game, but anyways, here we go. Giratina's biggest selling point is that it's consistently not useless. It's never truly bad in any matchup other than Cynthia. It gets a few KOs against each boss fight, though it requires healing at places. It won't sweep any fight, but it's performed better than most of my team against the E4. If the consistency is the reason why it's A-tier, I would say that's an acceptable decision, but if you are expecting this to demolish the rest of the game akin to Emerald Rayquaza, I will just say that this is far from the reality. I wouldn't rule out B-tier myself, but won't really object to any tier either.

next team: Piplup / Gible / Gligar / Scizor / Porygon-Z / Azelf

Torterra

Roark(14): Withdraw twice on Geodude to counter Onix's Screech. OHKO Geodude with Absorb to recover the damage from Rock Throw. 2HKO Onix with Razor Leaf, which is healed by Roark after the first one, but dies anyways. Cranidos will Leer turn one and then 3HKO with Headbutt, at which point you win if no flinches by 2HKOing with Absorb + Razor Leaf.

Mars(18): can easily win against Purugly by Cursing once then spamming Razor Leaf

Gardenia(22): Curse twice on Turtwig and 3HKO it with Bite behind Reflect. After you beat Turtwig, Reflect is over and Bite 2HKOes the rest. Roserade is defeated, but forces you to heal to beat Cherrim

Fantina(26): Bite 2HKOes Duskull and Haunter. Setting up Curse on either is pretty hard due to burn / confusion

Maylene(32): EQ spam wins easily, only Machoke avoids an OHKO. Easy sweep

Wake(37): the only way to beat Gyarados (as far as I've tried without healing) is to SD twice and OHKO with Razor Leaf after getting put in Overgrow range. Gyarados typically does that by going for two Waterfalls and one Brine, which put it in red. Floatzel always wins in realistic scenarios and Quagsire is a breakfast for Torterra. Meh matchup, Gyarados is likely to flinch you at least once and force you to heal.

Byron(41): EQ spam go brr

Candice(44): nope, cannot set up on anything and dies to Ice STAB moves.

Cyrus(46): beats Houndoom

Volkner(50): Rock Polish then spam EQ.

Aaron(52): even if you set up SD and Rock Polish, you won't sweep, as Heracross lives one Rock Slide (likely dies to Stone Edge, but accuracy issues) and kills you. You do beat whatever comes before it (or after it if you land a Stone Edge).

Bertha(52): +6 Rock Slide fails to OHKO Gliscor, unfortunately. You do kill Whiscash before that. Setting up on Hippo is not a good idea due to Yawn

Flint(52): you live one Flamethrower from Houndoom, so you can set up one Rock Polish and spam EQ. Infernape is the only one that doesn't get OHKOed. However, it is put in red, so Flare Blitz recoil will KO it.

Lucian(53): you can Rock Polish once and SD to the max against Mr. Mime, then OHKO it and Espeon. Bronzong comes in, forcing you to switch out. Torterra, if healed offscreen, could try SDing and Rock Polishing on Gallade if that is lured after Bronzong, as Gallade only 3HKOes with Psycho Cut to outspeed and OHKO Alakazam and Gallade. Alakazam itself lives an unboosted EQ, so going against it generally results in your loss no matter what.

Cynthia(53): you can sweep, but you need luck and three healing items - two to set up SD to the max and one Rock Polish and one to avoid ESpeed KO. If you can set those up, you outspeed and OHKO everything. Spiritomb 3HKOes with Silver Wind, but your sweep is more-or-less ruined if it gets an omniboost.


Staraptor

Mars(17): can 1v1 Purugly. Thanks to Intimidate, you can live a few Scratches while you are weakening it with Wing Attack. After three Wing Attacks (iirc?), you can finish it off with Quick Attack.

Gardenia(22): Wing Attack 2HKOes everything with no Reflect up. In general, Staravia sweeps if it's healthy enough to live two Magical Leaves from Roserade, since it's faster and the other members can chip you due to living longer with Reflect. However, things like Turtwig and Cherrim prefer to use status moves, so this is moreso an edge case.

Jupiter(23): Return and Night Slash are 4HKOs on their respective targets. The fight is slightly in favor of Skuntank due to increased crits + possible hax moves like Smokescreen

Fantina(26): Duskull burns it, but is 2HKOed by Wing Attack. Haunter is an easy kill, not minding confusion. Wing Attack seems to be a 4HKO on Mismagius due to Sitrus Berry and it seems to 3HKO with Psybeam. Combine it with its tendency to confuse you, this matchup is shaky unless you resort to Double Team or something

Maylene(34): got this to evolution because why not, it's in the Medium Slow growth rate, so it's pretty doable. Anyways, Aerial Ace OHKOes Meditite and 2HKOes Machoke, while CC OHKOes Lucario. Lucario doesn't deal much damage, so the Rock Tomb Speed drop from Machoke isn't an issue

Wake(37): it can 1v1 Floatzel by outspeeding and 2HKOing it with Return. However, Quagsire finishes it off, unless it misses Rock Tomb, in which case you win again. Gyarados is a no, obviously, unless you like -1 Attack or fodders.

Byron(41): CC spam seems to win. Steelix is 2HKOed, but barely misses the OHKO with Ice Fang even though I am at -3.

Candice(44): CC OHKOes Sneasel and Piloswine. Aboma lives one and kills you with Avalanche. Avoid Froslass

Cyrus(46): beats Houndoom and Honchkrow

Volkner(50): beats Luxray and Raichu

Aaron(52): beats Yanmega, Vespiquen, and Heracross with Brave Bird. You could also 1v1 Scizor, but the recoil means that you may not be able to take out any other Pokemon if you KO yourself with the next attack (since Scizor is put in red and is healed)

Bertha(52): Return 2HKOes Whiscash and CC 2HKOes Golem, which loses to you if it goes for Sandstorm. Gliscor typically finishes it off, wheres Rhyperior and Hippowdon 1v1 you unless you get really lucky with misses.

Flint(52): outspeeds and OHKOes Houndoom with CC. Rapidash can also be 1v1ed, but the rest OHKO you, with Infernape being faster, while the rest living one Brave Bird

Lucian(52): you can OHKO some things here like Mr. Mime with Brave Bird, but they generally outspeed and damage you hard, meaning you KO yourself with recoil if you take on anything


Floatzel

Gardenia: no

Fantina(26): Crunch 2HKOes Mismagius and OHKOes the rest. You outspeed Mismagius and aren't even 2HKOed by Magical Leaf!

Maylene(32): Crunch 2HKOes Meditite. Use Agility if you get hit by Rock Tomb. Lucario comes in after and is 2HKOed by Dig, while failing to KO you. Machoke finishes you off, but not before you put it in yellow

Wake(37): at best beats Quagsire. His own Floatzel wins the mirror matchup due to Sitrus Berry, but if you have your own, you may be able to win due to outspeeding

Byron(41): Specs Surf go brr

Candice(44): Brick Break OHKOes Sneasel. Avoid Abomasnow. Outspeeds and 2HKOes Froslass with Crunch. Piloswine dies to Surf. Somewhat good matchup

Cyrus(46): at best beats either Weavile or Houndoom, but not both at once

Volkner(50): beats Luxray and Raichu with Dig. Former is 2HKOed, latter is OHKOed, but the former also fails to OHKO you and you are faster than both.

Aaron(52): even with Rain Dance, Waterfall is a 2HKO at best, even failing to 2HKO threats like Drapion.

Bertha(52): Specs Surf wins. Whiscash is 2HKOed, the rest is OHKOed.

Flint(53): set up rain on Houndoom and spam Waterfall. You OHKO everything until Flareon, when rain is over, which lives a normal Surf and finishes you off

Lucian(53): nope, you get trashed in a fight where everything 2HKOes and you cannot OHKO


Gengar

Gardenia(22): Night Shade spam beats Turtwig and Cherrim. Roserade beats you, but if you skip Cherrim, you can Curse it.

Fantina(26): it is possible to 1v1 Mismagius but you rely on rolls to do that. Shadow Punch is a 2HKO on Mismagius, which could turn into a 3HKO due to Sitrus Berry, depending on rolls. You are faster and live one Shadow Ball from full. You can also use Gengar to take on the other Pokemon, but they prevent you from 1v1ing Mismagius

Maylene(33): best way to use it here is to just buy Psychic and spam it, which results in a sweep. Without it, you 2HKO Machoke and OHKO Meditite with Shadow Ball. Machoke's Rock Tomb, combined with Steel typing, prevent Gengar from beating Lucario otherwise. Focus Blast is also an option to nuke Lucario, though it's inaccurate. However, Metal Claw is a 3HKO from full, so you may be able to afford a miss

Wake(37): Gengar always 1v1s Gyarados, even with Shadow Ball. Whoever you beat next depends on if it knows TBolt; if you have TBolt, you can OHKO Gyarados, which allows you to live one Crunch from Floatzel (which is faster) and OHKO it as well. However, Quagsire beats you this way. The Shadow Ball way is a 2HKO on Gyara and forces you to skip Floatzel, meaning that you will be able to 1v1 Quagsire

Byron(41): you need Focus Blast to win here, otherwise, Magneton is the only one you beat consistently. Steelix 1v1s due to living two Specs Shadow Balls and 2HKOing with Flash Cannon after Magneton's Metal Sound (though you could switch out against Bastiodon) and Bastiodon generally 1v1s you

Candice(44): without Focus Blast, you aren't doing much, as Froslass is faster and can finish you off if you took any damage and Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOes Piloswine and Abomasnow.

Cyrus(46): Specs Thunderbolt OHKOes the Flying-types. Crobat is faster and can be annoying with hax, though

Volkner(50): Specs Sludge Bomb OHKOes Raichu and 2HKOes the rest. You beat Raichu and Electivire for sure, Luxray causes problems with Crunch and Jolteon paralyzes you.

Aaron(53): beats Yanmega and Vespiquen, maybe Heracross too, depending on how healthy you are against it

Bertha(53): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOes at best. This lets it beat Whiscash and Golem. Gliscor can be 1v1ed, but if you took on Whiscash, then Hippowdon will have come in and its sandstorm can cause a damaged Gengar to faint against Gliscor.

Flint(53): generally 1v1s Rapidash, the rest just OHKO it and do not get OHKOed by Specs Sludge Bomb (Infernape is faster)


Fantina(26): Shock Wave 2HKOes Haunter and Duskull. Haunter might be able to beat you by finishing you off with Sucker Punch

Maylene(34): Ominous Wind OHKOes Meditite and TBolt 2HKOes the rest. Lucario is an easy kill since you resist every single move it has. Great matchup

Wake(37): TBolt OHKOes Gyara and Floatzel. Floatzel is faster, but you live one Crunch. Quagsire is finishing you off, though, since Ominous Wind is only a 3HKO.

Byron(41): beats only Magneton. Bastiodon 3HKOes with Stone Edge while avoiding a 2HKO from Specs TBolt due to Sitrus Berry and healing helps it last longer

Candice(44) Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOes Abomasnow and Piloswine, the former being a roll for 3HKO. Froslass is faster, so is risky as a whole

Cyrus(46): beats Gyarados, Crobat, and Honchkrow

Volkner(50): beats Raichu and Jolteon for sure. Electivire seems to be a 2HKO on rolls with Specs Shadow Ball. If you don't 2HKO, it will beat you. Luxray is to be avoided due to Crunch

Aaron(52): Specs TBolt beats Vespiquen, Yanmega, and Scizor. Scizor is slower and 2HKOes with Night Slash

Bertha(52): Specs Shadow Ball 2HKOes Whiscash and Gliscor, but Whiscash damages you to the point that Gliscor (which is faster) finishes you off. Hippowdon's sand doesn't help either

Flint(52): can 1v1 Rapidash but that's about it

Lucian(52): 1v1s Alakazam, but loses to the rest. Mr. Mime's Light Screen turns Shadow Ball into a 3HKO (Mr. Mime is faster), Bronzong walls it, and the rest are faster and live one Specs Shadow Ball


Volkner(50): Shadow Force OHKOes Raichu and 2HKOes the rest, with Jolteon being 2HKOed by Dragon Claw as well. You get paralyzed and Luxray damages you heavily with Crunch, so a sweep is unlikely without healing.

Aaron(52): Specs Dragon Pulse 2HKOes everything but Scizor. Vespiquen goes for Defend Order, though, so you are unlikely to beat it. Ancient Power might help to nab an OHKO on Yanmega and Vespiquen, but 5 PP + Pressure certainly doesn't help.

Bertha(52): Specs DPulse 2HKOes everything (bar maybe Golem? Didn't really try against it) bar Rhyperior in sand (3HKO). You will need to heal to take on anything after Whiscash and Gliscor.

Flint(52): Specs DPulse 3HKOes Magmortar and Flareon and 2HKOes the rest. Houndoom typically goes for Sunny Day and is slower. You take out 4/5 with one healing, in most cases, though 10 PP might cause you some issues

Lucian(52): Specs Shadow Ball OHKOes Mr. Mime and Alakazam, 3HKOes Bronzong, and 2HKOes the rest. Typically, you beat Mr. Mime and Espeon, switch out against Bronzong, heal offscreen, then bring it back to beat Gallade and Alakazam, which fail to defeat it together.
One thing I noticed is that you have neglected to use pluck on Staravia, which is one of the main reasons why it's good in the early game matchups like Mars, Jupiter and Fantina. It not only gets rid of their berries, but it also allows Staravia to heal without taking up a turn. It essentialy creates an HP swing worth two sitrus berries against foes like Fantina's Mismagius, which is very significant. It also makes the matchup against Gardenia much more consistent. I think that this might explain why most people had a better experience with the Starly line than you.

I also think giving Rotom the Tbolt TM from the game corner is quite a high investment. I think most (casual) players would just use the Tbolt TM you find in the overworld, which would make Rotom's matchup against Maylene and especially Wake a little less impressive. I've used Rotom too, and I think B in general is one step too far for it. Like, it's not a bad Pokemon, but it certainly didn't feel as useful to me as Turtwig, which you also nominated for B.

In fact, I think a lot of people are too hard on Turtwig. From Ryota's logs alone, I'm picking up 5 consistent sweeps and at least two generally postive matchups (Mars and Gardenia). That's not much worse than the likes of even Starly or Chimchar. The reality is that Platinum is a hard game, so I think it's fair to overlook some issues and a bad matchup here and there if the Pokemon is generally good. Even the undisputed king of S tier, Alakazam, has been called into question. Basically, every Pokemon has problems in this game because it's simply a hard game. That's why I think we can be a bit more generous with placements of the high tiers even if a Pokemon has some significant issues. That's one of the reasons why I also think Starly is an S tier. Sure, it has issues, but it's just really good in general. It's the perfect Pokemon to recommend to casual players that read the tier list.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
One thing I noticed is that you have neglected to use pluck on Staravia, which is one of the main reasons why it's good in the early game matchups like Mars, Jupiter and Fantina. It not only gets rid of their berries, but it also allows Staravia to heal without taking up a turn. It essentialy creates an HP swing worth two sitrus berries against foes like Fantina's Mismagius, which is very significant. It also makes the matchup against Gardenia much more consistent. I think that this might explain why most people had a better experience with the Starly line than you.
I forgot Pluck existed, though I did count Gardenia positively anyways, since I was suspecting something on my part. I don't think Mismagius would have ended in a win anyways, since I am psure it outsped me, but I don't remember too much at this point.

I also think giving Rotom the Tbolt TM from the game corner is quite a high investment. I think most (casual) players would just use the Tbolt TM you find in the overworld, which would make Rotom's matchup against Maylene and especially Wake a little less impressive. I've used Rotom too, and I think B in general is one step too far for it. Like, it's not a bad Pokemon, but it certainly didn't feel as useful to me as Turtwig, which you also nominated for B.
I was told not to concern myself with TMs too much :blobshrug:

Anyways, I won't deny that Rotom is probably worse without immediate TBolt, but I'd like to mention that Jolteon will have the same (ok maybe similar) issue, yet it's two tiers above Rotom, which I think is way too much for Pokemon that have similar performances, I'd certainly say Jolteon has to drop if we accept this type of logic
 
I was told not to concern myself with TMs too much :blobshrug:

Anyways, I won't deny that Rotom is probably worse without immediate TBolt, but I'd like to mention that Jolteon will have the same (ok maybe similar) issue, yet it's two tiers above Rotom, which I think is way too much for Pokemon that have similar performances, I'd certainly say Jolteon has to drop if we accept this type of logic
The TM thing is just my personal opinion. I think it's quite a waste of money to buy a TM that you can just find in the overworld at a reasonable point in the game. You only miss two major matchups if you don't get the GC TM, and of those, Maylene is still good even without Tbolt. That's why I think getting early Tbolt isn't really worth it for Rotom.

I agree with a drop for Jolteon if Rotom ends up in C. There's not much of a difference between them apart from Jolteon having better stats. I also don't think that Jolteon can compete with some other A tiers because it's movepool is so shallow. It's absolutely helpless against ground types for example, which are really common in this game.
 
I forgot Pluck existed
:pikuh:

Intimidate+Pluck is what allows it to 1v1 some of the most dangerous mons in the whole franchise...

With that said, I can understand why you don't feel Starly is S-tier since you were missing such a crucial move. As Magnus said, it's the main factor in being able to check or even outright beat Mismagius.
 
Finished my run, not posting logs because I think my noms are reasonable without them.

Piplup: B tier for sure. Empoleon is kinda good in the Pokemon League, being relevant for every single Elite Four member thanks to its resistances or STAB, even if it doesn't sweep Flint or Lucian much. However, Piplup and Prinplup are pretty below average and sour my opinion away from A unfortunately. You have some A tier consistency when you get Empoleon, but before that it's extreme mediocrity and easily the worst of the starters (and I wanna say mine had like...a 29 Special Attack IV?), though Bide cheeses both Skuntank and Mismagius (and Maylene's Lucario) rather reliably. It never really sweeps much pre-Empoleon outside of Mars 2 with early BubbleBeam. Also not a fan of how it uses Pluck, Grass Knot, AND Flash Cannon (3 TMs) throughout the game for a few fringe matchups, even if those are not contested. Again, B tier. I consider it more or less on the same viability as Turtwig in that its an above-average B tier but falls short of A. You can do things with it pre-Specs Empoleon but they aren't really dependent on its Water typing at all aside from a defensive standpoint.

Abra (Trade): A tier. Specs Psychic from this thing brings to mind how strong it was in the first three gens, but it simply is not dominant enough for S, and I don't like how Grass Knot and Shadow Ball TMs are useful in a grand total of basically one matchup each (Bertha and Flint). Shock Wave feels like the only move it would see consistent use out of. My Alakazam was level 55 by the end and could 2HKO a lot of Cynthia's Pokemon with Specs Psychic but a sweep is likely out of the question there. How is it in general? Pretty good throughout the game, but never something you can rely on exclusively, with both catching and leveling an Abra not helping matters.

Magmar: Remember Magnemite? Yeah, I'm referring to this core as MortarZone now. Both are basically the same Pokemon in that they come barreling out of the gates until Volkner upon which they have several minor failings in the next few matchups. Is Magmortar strong? Absolutely. Specs Fire Blast can OHKO Volkner's Pokemon (not a sweep, Thunder Wave from Jolteon stops you). Both are pretty good for Cyrus and do decent in the League, but for an A tier to be this late you really need more than a good Aaron performance and only decent performances against the last three Elite Four. Magmortar and Magnezone have the power for A tier, but the League, slight TM dependence, and their late availability realistically keep them in B.

Porygon-Z
: This thing eats babies while only falling off from Flint and onward (+4 Signal Beam leaves Spiritomb alive as it 3HKOs - simply too much setup for Cynthia). Choice Specs Download making you function at +2 sometimes is utterly ridiculous (you outspeed and OHKO some of Aaron's mons at functionally +2!!) and it's pretty good before Specs. Nasty Plot is pretty unnecessary aside from Bertha, who really isn't all that relevant. Choice Specs Download is all you need really, and I could honestly see Adaptability helping more at the League even if Download is the definitive Ability for it. A tier, trading twice sucks also plays a slight factor in reducing the ranking.

Driftloon
: Imma be real: I dropped this thing at Cyrus 2. It was passable everywhere but is never truly relevant at all, and I knew by that point it would be playing the 2HKO game and likely be outsped more often than not. It wasn't FRLG Aerodactyl levels of D and was reasonably okay in the midgame, but its weaknesses are EVERYWHERE which is very bad for a mon with only modest offenses and STAB combo that really doesn't hit a whole lot SE. I wanted to say borderline C / D but honestly think it can go in D. Early availability and evolution mean more or less nothing for it outside of mooks, everything still hits it for a lot. I know it's unfair to tier a dropped Pokemon, but trust me, any extended experience with Driftblim will make you want to drop it.

And with that, I am done testing and leading for this list. I know it was a short tenure, but this is Volt and Magnus's list ultimately. As for the above, I'll simply say this: please treat unpopular opinions with respect, especially if they pertain to the high tiers. It's a Pokemon game at the end of the day and there's honestly no need to shut out a dissenting opinion (this goes for everyone). I treated S's in BW1 with high scrutiny. S and A tiers in my opinion should generally be placed under a magnifying glass, especially the former. Not everything has to be S.

Also "the game is hard" is not really an argument. Ultra Sun and Moon are hard. Colosseum is hard. We still tier them traditionally so I don't see why Platinum should be that much different. Does this mean everything should be S in easyland X and Y? Of course not!

Thank you for your time.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
done with Piplup / Gligar / Gible / Scyther (Trade) / Porygon (Trade) / Azelf

Piplup
I am going to go with B-tier. The tl;dr is that Piplup is sort of awkward at the beginning and Empoleon, while a great upgrade, has its own issues later on in the game. For the early-game, Pipulp will struggle with Roark, unless I misused it or something, because you cannot bruteforce your way through the whole team (Cranidos generally 1v1s you, didn't try Growl spam, since it seemed rather ineffective). Afterwards, you will struggle to take out more than one Pokemon from the next Gyms until evolution, though Bide can do some trickery here against aces (most notably Mismagius, though watch out for confusion). Empoleon is decent from there on, beating 2/3 of Wake and sweeping Byron and Candice effortlessly. From there on, Empoleon will be somewhat inconsistent in its performance; it will perform well against Aaron and Bertha while getting two KOs against Cyrus, but even matchups like Flint are pretty bad for it. I am going with B-tier simply because Piplup had too many issues for me and didn't feel like an A-tier at any point

Gible
I kind of wanna say B-tier, even though Garchomp is amazing in the end-game. There are two issues. The first one is the TM dependency. You want to TM it EQ right away, because Dig is just not a viable alternative. You also want Rock Slide, which seems fairly valuable (especially when your best Rock move will most likely be... Rock Tomb. Which, let me remind you, is awful before Gen VI). The second one is that Slow growth rate doesn't help it too much and will require more investment to make up for it. It's also got some shaky matchups pre-League, most notably Wake and Candice, though it's decent for Maylene and Volkner (doesn't sweep Byron, but takes out 2/3 of his team). After Distortion World, Garchomp becomes amazing, as it sweeps Volkner, Aaron, Bertha, and Flint, while being capable of taking out 4/5 of Lucian's team with offscreen healing. I am leaning towards B-tier, but I'd say it's close to A-tier and could *mayybeee* stay there, but Slow growth rate + requiring two valuable TMs + some shaky matchups do hold it back.

Gligar
Gligar is pretty similar to Gible in that you want to teach it SlideQuake to perform well. Gligar probs wants EQ even more than Gible because its starting movepool is just awful. Anyways, sweeps Maylene with no problems, is meh against Candice and Wake and becomes somewhat usable after that. It sweeps Volkner, Aaron, and Flint, but is luck-reliant against Bertha and is meh against Lucian. I'd say both C and B-tier make sense, slightly leaning towards C due to its E4 performance being a tad worse, compared to things like Chomp.

Scizor
This thing... was amazing. Like, I am not gonna lie, it's one of the best Pokemon you could possibly use in Platinum. For this run, I assume that you use Scyther until Iron Island, since Scyther's stats and typing are great before that and you won't need to hunt for Metal Coat. Scyther / Scizor sweeps every single Gym Leader, though Volkner and Wake require healing, the former due to Thunder Wave. At the E4, Scizor sweeps Aaron (if Yanmega doesn't damage it too much) and, notably, Lucian without healing WHATSOEVER. Scizor can also sweep Cynthia; you SD to the max, set up one Agility, then you spam Iron Head or X-Scissor. Your only healing here is to avoid ESpeed KO, since Spiritomb leaves you in red, but that's about it.

This run didn't use Bullet Punch, since I wanted to see if it was needed or if Iron Head was more needed. Scizor performs well without BP, but it could be worth exploring Bullet Punch as well, since it removes the need for Agility in most fights. As for a rank, A-tier with a potential for S-tier. It does require some set up and healing, but, honestly, name me something that can sweep Lucian without healing, sweep Cynthia, and also sweep pretty much every Gym Leader it faces. Technician isn't that hard to get, since morning Scyther have a 15% encounter rate, so even that isn't an issue.

Porygon-Z
I will go with low A-tier because I was too lazy to try out NP sets, but even Specs sets are pretty decent. P2 sweeps Wake and is decent against the other Gym Leaders. It doesn't need TMs to function, other than TBolt. High join level (25 is pretty high imo) means that it will catch up quickly to your team. All in all, it's decent as a whole, always kills stuff, sweeps Wake, and it's capable of some impressive victories with NP and Agility, judging by Drums's logs

Azelf
I'd say this should just be in the same tier as Giratina. Like it, Azelf is better than most things against the E4, but it's not Emerald Rayquaza level either. You sweep Volkner not minding paralysis, crush Aaron and Bertha and has the potential of being useful against Flint. It's bad for Lucian (at least without Shadow Ball) and never tried it against Cynthia since I don't see where you can set up. I'd say Giratina and Azelf should be B-tier, honestly, but A-tier works too if you value not being a deadweight against the E4 highly

Roark(14): you beat Geodude and Onix, but you are unlikely to beat Cranidos. Onix generally Screeches at you and is faster (and can even live Bubble with rolls). Cranidos *can* be defeated, but you need to get / have gotten pretty lucky to do that

Mars(18): Bubble Beam 3HKOes Purugly, which 4HKOes with Scratch after Fake Out

Gardenia(23): even with a level advantage, you are struggling to get past Turtwig, even with Pluck

Fantina(26): Bubble Beam 2HKOes everything but Mismagius, your only worry is Haunter confusing you. Mismagius 3HKOes with Magical Leaf, meaning you can use Bide here to OHKO it (which I find fully acceptable)

Maylene(32): Bide OHKOes Lucario due to it 3HKOing with Drain Punch. Prinplup can also 1v1 the rest, but this prevents it from using Bide on Lucario

Wake(37): with Grass Knot, Empoleon beats Floatzel and Quagsire

Byron(41): Specs Surf go brr

Candice(44): Specs Flash Cannon go brr

Cyrus(46): beats Houndoom and then either Weavile or Honchkrow

Volkner(50): you can KO a threat or two here, but you are really slow, so you aren't sweeping (Specs Surf is mostly a 2HKO)

Aaron(52): Specs Surf spam beats everything but Heracross

Bertha(53): beats everything but Gliscor, which is faster and kills you on the spot

Flint(53): it's pretty bad here, you are outsped by a lot of things here and Sunny Day removes some important OHKOs, so you are limited to few threats like Flareon that you can beat.

Lucian(53): nope, struggles to get past Mr. Mime, though I imagine it might be able to muscle through Espeon and/or Bronzong


Gliscor

Fantina(26): Faint Attack 2HKOes Haunter and Duskull, though Duskull can burn you.

Maylene(32): as a Gliscor, you can simply spam EQ and win. As a Gligar, you will want a SD to OHKO everything. Easy sweep either ways

Wake(37): nope, cannot even set up SD against Gyarados lol.

Byron(41): SD twice on Magneton then spam EQ. This way, you guarantee an OHKO on Steelix (+2 is a roll) and thus avoid Ice Fang. Magneton 3HKOes.

Candice(44): lol

Cyrus(46): beats Houndoom, didn't test much after that, though Rock Slide could help, I guess

Volkner(50): EQ go brrr

Aaron(53): SD once then spam SlideQuake. Heracross is 2HKOed, but it doesn't threaten you even with Stone Edge.

Bertha(53): SD to the max against Whiscash, which 3HKOes you, but goes for Sandstorm to your benefit in one turn. You OHKO everything but Gliscor. Gliscor is dangerous with Ice Fang, but not only can you flinch it, but Sand Veil helps you potentially avoid Ice Fang

Flint(53): SD once, spam EQ to sweep. Infernape is the only one that's faster and it fails to OHKO even with sun. Houndoom goes for Sunny Day, giving you a free turn

Lucian(53): nope, beats Mr. Mime at best and then gets trashed


Garchomp

Fantina(26): Dragon Rage 2HKOes everything, with Mismagius being a 3HKO only due to Sitrus Berry. Haunter is faster, but seems to attack you moreso than spam Confuse Ray.

Maylene(32): spam EQ and you are most likely winning (OHKOes Meditite and Lucario and 2HKOes Machoke).

Wake(37): you 3HKO Quagsire and Gyarados, the latter with Dragon Rage. At best, you take out one threat only

Byron(41): beats Bastiodon and Magneton. Steelix is 3HKOed by EQ and 2HKOes with Ice Fang

Candice(44): didn't try it because lol, I guess you can OHKO Aboma with Specs Flamethrower, but from experience from the trainers, you are losing pretty badly anyways

Cyrus(46): didn't try it, ig you beat Houndoom

Volkner(50): EQ go brr

Aaron(52): SD once, then spam STAB moves or Rock Slide. Heracross is OHKOed by Dragon Claw and the rest by SlideQuake

Bertha(52): SD twice, OHKO Gliscor with DClaw, the rest with EQ

Flint(53): SD once then spam EQ for the sweep. I don't think you even need SD, but you can set it up just in case. Infernape is the only one that's faster and, even then, doesn't pose much of an issue

Lucian(53): SD once if Mr. Mime goes for anything but Reflect and to the max if Reflect to OHKO it. Espeon is faster, but Chomp can generally live one Psychic and OHKO in return. Switch out and heal against Bronzong. Bring Garchomp back against Gallade and SD once, then spam EQ for the victory. Gallade 3HKOes with Psycho Cut and is slower, whilst Zam fails to KO if you took a normal Psycho Cut


Scizor

Maylene(32): +2 Wing Attack OHKOes Lucario, Wing Attack kills the rest

Wake(37): can sweep, but not in the most efficient way. You SD twice, heal, then set up one Agility. Gyarados 3HKOes with Waterfall, but it decides to be cocky and go for Brine on the turn it would KO you, which is why you remain at high HP after being done setting up and then murder him. Again, not the most efficient, but I am willing to accept this at least partially due to this being Wake

Byron(41): SD once then spam BB, ggnore

Candice(44): SD and Agility, then 2HKO Froslass with X-Scissor and the rest with Brick Break. Froslass can be annoying with Snow Cloak and DTeam, but you can afford several misses. Bullet Punch through relearner can make this matchup slightly more consistent, but isn't needed

Cyrus(46): beats Weavile, alongside Honchkrow if you have +2 in Speed and Attack. Crobat can be beaten if you have the appropriate coverage and Gyara needs something like +6 to OHKO

Volkner(50): SD, Agility, heal off paralysis, then spam X-Scissor for the win

Aaron(53): Agility and SD once, then spam X-Scissor / Iron Head. Iron Head 2HKOes Drapion and Scizor and OHKOes the rest. Your only worry is Yanmega striking you more than once, but if it hits you only once, you are likely winning

Bertha(53): you cannot set up SD to the max and +4 Iron Head doesn't OHKO Gliscor, which comes right after. Setting up elsewhere is mostly impossible

Flint(53): lol

Lucian(53): SD to the max and set up one Agility against Mr. Mime then OHKO everything with X-Scissor. Mr. Mime doesn't threaten you, as Thunderbolt seems to be a 4HKO and it wastes one turn setting up a screen. Incredible

Cynthia(54): SD to the max and use one Agility. Spiritomb puts you in red by the time you are done. You then spam Iron Head on Lucario and appropriate STAB move on the rest. You may need to heal once to avoid ESpeed KO, but that's about it. Incredible sweep


Porygon-Z

Maylene(32): Download gets a SpA boost against Meditite. TBolt OHKOes Meditite and 2HKOes Lucario. Psybeam OHKOes Machoke. Pretty good for a Normal-type

Wake(37): Special Attack boost. You set up one Agility on Gyarados then OHKO it and Floatzel with TBolt. Quagsire is 2HKOed by Signal Beam and doesn't threaten you at all. Amazing

Byron(41): Magneton dies to +1 Specs TBolt (2HKO). Steelix forces you out. Bastiodon is 3HKOed due to Sitrus Berry and wins if it Metal Bursts you at any point

Candice(44): beats Sneasel and Aboma with Specs Signal Beam. The rest beat it

Cyrus(46): beats the Flying-types.

Volkner(51): come in on Luxray and OHKO everything with Specs Tri Attack

Aaron(52): Specs Tri Attack spam wins. Scizor is 2HKOed, the rest is OHKOed. You win even if Scizor lands a critical hit.

Bertha(52): meh here without Ice Beam, you cannot do much with Specs, but might be able to set up with NP and Agility. With Specs, you can beat Gliscor (SpA boost) and Hippowdown

Flint(52): you beat Houndoom and Rapidash, but the rest beat you

Lucian(52): with Specs, you won't be able to do much other than KO Mr. Mime


Azelf

Volkner(51): +2 Extrasensory OHKOes everything while outspeeding. You need a Full Restore or a Cheri Berry for Jolteon's TWave

Aaron(52): Specs Flamethrower allows it to beat everything but Drapion.

Bertha(52): NP twice and spam Psychic (Extrasensory doesn't OHKO Rhyperior), which OHKOes everything. Grass Knot can help here as well if you don't wanna teach Psychic

Flint(52): weirdly, Magmortar likes to go SunnyBeam here. If you can get two NPs against Magmortar, you can outspeed and OHKO everything but Infernape, which is faster and kills you with Flare Blitz in sun

Lucian(52): beats Mr. Mime then it struggles to beat anything else, bar maybe Bronzong with NP spam and Flamethrower (Espeon is faster)
 
So this is going to be my last post in this thread, not that I have really posted in this thread to begin with. Hopefully what I say here will hit home but I doubt so and will instead make you mad or just ignore this post.

The lack of Leadership
Over the past month, the thread has been very hands off in terms of who is leading. There are two TLs here. One MIA until recently only to defend Starly and Turtwig and the other coming in, firing quips that are really not needed as they are plain rude and deter testers. You two took on the role of leader together but have yet to act as such. Your thread is barely hanging onto life as it is. If you can't do it, give up the list to someone who will. I get that real life is a thing. I get that people have stuff outside of the tier lists. I, myself, do not have a whole lot of time to dedicate to my lists like I once did. However, I make the effort to do as much as I can when I do have that time available.

Bias
A big thing that I have noticed is the sheer amount of Bias aimed at two Pokemon thus far in the list. Turtwig and Starly. Turtwig is honestly the worst of the two as a majority have stated it is more suited to B rather than A. However, as a TL, you need to understand that your bias towards the mon has to be kept in check. A majority has voted against what you think so far and it looks like it won't stop. This isn't a personal list but a community project in reality. As for Starly, there are more S's than A's but those A's are trickling in. My personal opinions aside of whether it belongs in S or A, I find it more of an issue with HOW it is reaching the S Performance. S Tiers are generally able to sweep at a consistent rate. While I understand that DPPt make this a very difficult task to even accomplish, enough to the point I re-evalutated how I was tiering for this, this is a basis that all S Tiers should follow. Instead from what it looks like, the basis of its S performace is "Well it 1v1's the Ace of the MU".

So do a lot of other Pokemon if given the time of day? So by these standards, hypothetically, if I had Prinplup beat Jupiter's Skuntank, I have traction for an S nom. This is pretty much your basis for Starly. It takes down the Ace. This creates a slope and honestly, it seems it is SOLELY reserved towards Starly. Don't think you can get any more biased than that. To me, that just points out its flaws even moreso. As per the recent test by Ryota, he found it to have a lack of dominance. Later on, around Candice, it falls off incredibly hard only really dealing with 2 mons and its E4 performance was underwhelming. That...doesn't scream S to me.

Additionally, when a post was made about A potentiallity, the response by a TL was worded very rudely and off putting. There were better ways to say it than "Intimidate+Pluck is what allows it to 1v1 some of the most dangerous mons in the whole franchise... With that said, I can understand why you don't feel Starly is S-tier since you were missing such a crucial move." or " One thing I noticed is that you have neglected to use pluck on Staravia." Yes these aren't the full quotes but the former is a more egregious example.

If your sole basis for an S Performance is based on a forgettable move like Pluck (in which only 6 Pokemon can learn it in all of main game DPPt, these being Piplup, Zubat, Starly, Bidoof, Hoothoot, and Murkrow) and even then it has a reasonable potential to fail a 1v1, that's another hard case to make for S.

Listen to your testers and take their nominations seriously (if it warrants it) without a little snippet of being rude and biased.

Tier Explanations in the OP
Honestly, even the OI Discord talked about this. It's isn't worded the best. The two sentences and later on one sentences don't tell us enough on how to effectively place the Pokemon. It's more of "Well it feels like this, so it is this." Clarification on these would be preferred, but this likely isn't to happen. The more I look at it, the more S Tier seems like it was worded for Starly and Chimchar exclusively as Zam doesn't come close to what S Tier is written up as (which testers have found not to be S under the traditional testing that has occurred over the past few years)

A Tier IS NOT bad in DPPt. It's an incredibly good tier to be in and S is just "I/We are the Kings of this game." Honestly speaking, DPPt could be fine WITHOUT an S Tier or just ONE Pokemon in it (this being Infernape as it has more consistency compared to Raptor in terms of sweeping and dealing massive output of damage). Putting things in A puts them in the same League as Zam, a usual nominee of S Tier. Just goes to show how much you have to do to be considered S in DPPt.

Report me, get mad, or ignore this post. This is my personal stance of this list. I honestly shouldn't care enough about your list to warrant this, but it's really been the attitudes of the TLs towards their testers and their own list that have set me off as well as their close mindedness regarding the above biased Pokemon.
 
Tier Explanations in the OP
A Tier IS NOT bad in DPPt. It's an incredibly good tier to be in and S is just "I/We are the Kings of this game." Honestly speaking, DPPt could be fine WITHOUT an S Tier or just ONE Pokemon in it (this being Infernape as it has more consistency compared to Raptor in terms of sweeping and dealing massive output of damage). Putting things in A puts them in the same League as Zam, a usual nominee of S Tier. Just goes to show how much you have to do to be considered S in DPPt.
I think this is a good point. If we just stick to the explanations of the tiers, no Pokemon would be S at all. Even Chimchar would arguably fit better in the current definition of A because it ticks the 'crippling matchups' box. My approach was to be a bit more generous with placements because I was worried that S would just disappear without that generosity, but there's no real reason to do that. Either we change the definition of S tier to be more generous, just to preserve the tier, or we keep the definition in line with the other tiering threads and just accept that it will be extremely small or even completely empty. On second thought, I think the second option is better because it's more transparent. If we approach tiering like this, I think it might alleviate the bias problem as well. I'd be fine with Starly and Turtwig dropping if there was no S tier, and their performance would align better with the definition of the tiers.

Also, I want to make it absolutely clear that I didn't intend to come off as rude. With Ryota, I just pointed out that pluck is a thing in this game, and why it's an important move for Staravia's early/mid game performance. If that came off wrong, I apologize, but I think the point itself is still valid to bring up.
 
So this is going to be my last post in this thread
tenor (2).gif


Now, back on topic, Magnus0 reached out to me with some updates.

Drops
- Abra(trade) from S to A
- Budew from A to B
- Buizel from A to B
- Eevee(Jolteon) from A to B
- Gible from A to B
- Piplup from A to B
- Turtwig from A to B
- Psyduck from B to C

Rises
- Spiritomb from E to D
- Eevee(Glaceon) from E to D
- Snover from E to D
- Hippopotas from E to D

From memory, I'm not really opposed to any of these, barring *maybe* Piplup, but I don't remember much about the Prinplup phase, so I'll take Drums' word for it.

Budew could end up at C tbh, but at any rate, A is too high.

Gonna wait a bit until I update the list so people can raise their points if they want, otherwise, I'll update it in a week or so.
 
my opinion on New tiers
Abra looks fine in A
Gible could stay in A But B IS Reasonable
Psyduck in B/C Is fine but it is also really good for HM Slaving(second best HM Slave after Bidoof)
Turtwig is mostly A Tier for Me
Spiritomb should Stay in E(The Obtaining method is pretty unreasonable)
Glaceon rising to D Is Fine
Snover should Remain E(Look at my comment regarding Snover/Aboma)
 
I think this is a good point. If we just stick to the explanations of the tiers, no Pokemon would be S at all. Even Chimchar would arguably fit better in the current definition of A because it ticks the 'crippling matchups' box. My approach was to be a bit more generous with placements because I was worried that S would just disappear without that generosity, but there's no real reason to do that. Either we change the definition of S tier to be more generous, just to preserve the tier, or we keep the definition in line with the other tiering threads and just accept that it will be extremely small or even completely empty. On second thought, I think the second option is better because it's more transparent. If we approach tiering like this, I think it might alleviate the bias problem as well. I'd be fine with Starly and Turtwig dropping if there was no S tier, and their performance would align better with the definition of the tiers.

Also, I want to make it absolutely clear that I didn't intend to come off as rude. With Ryota, I just pointed out that pluck is a thing in this game, and why it's an important move for Staravia's early/mid game performance. If that came off wrong, I apologize, but I think the point itself is still valid to bring up.
I agree with this. After some thought, I'm not sure if there's a single Pokémon that fits the traditional definition of "game breaking" to warrant an S tier placement in this game, specifically Platinum. If we're going to use the "Platinum is a hard game" argument it means many Pokémon that would cleave through other games easily (like Alakazam) will not perform nearly as well in this game relatively speaking.

I think there seems to be a general consensus that Zam is A not S in this game, which I concur with. I also think that even with Pluck, Staraptor is not S in this game. Pluck doesn't exactly turn Purugly, Skuntank or Mismagius into outright 1v1 wins. It just serves to check those mons, albeit tremendously well. And people get hyped up about Staraptor's STAB max happiness Return off 120 Attack, which is nice don't get me wrong. But Normal STAB is nothing to write home about, especially in a game with a fair number of Steel types. Close Combat grants good combined coverage but it is still non STAB and normally targets mons with exceptionally high physical Defense, so there are no guarantees for an OHKO and Staraptor doesn't have the bulk to stomach too many hits in return. Fly as its Flying STAB is also less than optimal; I always hate using two turn moves as it goes against the spirit of "efficiency" which should be a key tenet of these threads. Not to mention the imperfect accuracy. Raptor's late game matchups against third Cyrus, Lucian and Cynthia are nothing to write home about. And while Intimidate augments its physical Defense, its special bulk is honestly atrocious and has burned me on more than one occasion (for example, if you get out sped by Cynthia's Roserade, which is more likely than you think, you WILL die to Sludge Bomb no questions asked). For all these reasons, I think Staraptor is A even with Pluck.

I might make a post later about Infernape as well. Even despite my personal bias for the mon, I can see some issues with it which might, in my eyes, justify the removal of an S tier altogether from this particular list.
 
Judging by the fact that not every tier list uses the same set of rules, I see no problem of lowering standards for each ranking here due to Platinum's difficulty. Personally, I always treated S tier as just a list of the most efficient Pokemon (relatively to everything below it).
 
I agree with this. After some thought, I'm not sure if there's a single Pokémon that fits the traditional definition of "game breaking" to warrant an S tier placement in this game, specifically Platinum. If we're going to use the "Platinum is a hard game" argument it means many Pokémon that would cleave through other games easily (like Alakazam) will not perform nearly as well in this game relatively speaking.

I think there seems to be a general consensus that Zam is A not S in this game, which I concur with. I also think that even with Pluck, Staraptor is not S in this game. Pluck doesn't exactly turn Purugly, Skuntank or Mismagius into outright 1v1 wins. It just serves to check those mons, albeit tremendously well. And people get hyped up about Staraptor's STAB max happiness Return off 120 Attack, which is nice don't get me wrong. But Normal STAB is nothing to write home about, especially in a game with a fair number of Steel types. Close Combat grants good combined coverage but it is still non STAB and normally targets mons with exceptionally high physical Defense, so there are no guarantees for an OHKO and Staraptor doesn't have the bulk to stomach too many hits in return. Fly as its Flying STAB is also less than optimal; I always hate using two turn moves as it goes against the spirit of "efficiency" which should be a key tenet of these threads. Not to mention the imperfect accuracy. Raptor's late game matchups against third Cyrus, Lucian and Cynthia are nothing to write home about. And while Intimidate augments its physical Defense, its special bulk is honestly atrocious and has burned me on more than one occasion (for example, if you get out sped by Cynthia's Roserade, which is more likely than you think, you WILL die to Sludge Bomb no questions asked). For all these reasons, I think Staraptor is A even with Pluck.

I might make a post later about Infernape as well. Even despite my personal bias for the mon, I can see some issues with it which might, in my eyes, justify the removal of an S tier altogether from this particular list.
Both you and Magnus raised good points, and frankly, this is why it's always important to test the S-Tiers ASAP.

If no one is broken enough to be S-Tier, so be it. I made sure to write definitions so we'd have a similar standard to judge.

Staravia does have some bad matchups like Roark and Maylene's Lucario if it doesn't evolve (it lacks the raw power to break through it because of Drain Punch.) and also some matchups that require testing because, on paper, they're closer to neutral like most of the E4 and Cynthia, but in practice, it's hard to say because Raptor does pull some upsets.

The positives are well-known. That 1v1 value, STAB Return being one of the most spammable neutral attacks coming off 120 ATK and Close Combat allowing Raptor to contribute in matchups that would spell its doom, like Byron and Candice. One is hard-pressed to not use Raptor in-game to the point of it being a meme.

It's also important to discuss how to use it to the best of its abilities. As we know, Intimidate is a very strong tool that is all but wasted if one does things like trying to sweep Mars 1 and burning it on a Toxic Zubat instead of the much more relevant Purugly. All that accomplishes is taking extra damage for little to no reason.

In my opinion, Staravia should either attempt to remove the fodder for another mon to attempt to get the major threat in a mismatch, or 1v1 said threat itself.

Fly as its Flying STAB is also less than optimal; I always hate using two turn moves as it goes against the spirit of "efficiency" which should be a key tenet of these threads. Not to mention the imperfect accuracy.
To be honest, unless there's a real concern of getting hit during Fly, I hardly pay any attention to it. Missed attack prompts aren't long enough for me to bother. It's much less concerning than, say, Brave Bird's recoil. Especially when we recently had Torterra struggle with recoil to the point it couldn't sweep Bertha, who otherwise would be an obviously good matchup.


Honestly, I could see Raptor dropping to A.

It's a really hard mon to evaluate under standard conditions because when we think about S-Tier mons, we think about sweeping, but trying to apply that to Raptor is a disservice to its defensive value, especially during the Staravia period. And we sure as hell don't consider Staravia an offensive powerhouse.
 
I really should have posted this before Ryota finished his/her/their/its run with a Torterra. Better late than never, I guess. Anyways, this is what happened when I used a Torterra a few months ago.
torterra.png
Now that at least 3 people have used Torterra and say it should be B tier, I think it's time to read Drumstick's, Moonlight's, and Ryota's logs and attempt to figure out why we got such different results.

Gardenia: I was able to get more consistent sweeps because I used return instead of bite. Because Gardenia's Turtwig wastes so many turns using reflect and sunny day, it's pretty easy to set up 4 to 6 curses and 2HKO her Turtwig before Grotle loses half of its HP. Additionally, giving Grotle an Oran berry lowers the chance of needing a super potion.

Jupiter: This is where return really matters. While her Skuntank resists both razor leaf and bite, Grotle's +2 return 3HKOs Skuntank. Zubat's wing attack is super effective, but it is still too weak to stop Grotle from setting up and sweeping.

Fantina: Rawst berry allows Grotle to set up on her Duskull. Yes her Mismagius can use confuse ray. Yes Grotle still needs luck to sweep. However, most other A tier things can just barely touch her Mismagius regardless of how lucky they get, so I still consider this a relatively good matchup for Grotle.

Rival (209): Even though wing attack is super effective, his Staravia still uses 2 or 3 double teams before attacking. Grotle can easily use curse during these turns, and wing attack is no longer a threat when Staravia actually starts using it. Grotle can continue cursing until return is a guaranteed OHKO, so endeavor isn't a problem either. Even if a teammate needs return more than Grotle does, Grotle can use secret power, which is still an upgrade over bite and also neutrally effective against Monferno.

Rival (Pastoria): Again, Torterra can use return to defeat Staravia without losing much of its own HP.

Wake: A Sitrus berry lets Torterra survive one ice fang from Floatzel, OHKO Floatzel with wood hammer, and survive the recoil. Of course, Torterra can then easily take out Quagsire. Similarly to Fantina, Wake is a difficult opponent even for A tier Pokemon. Being able to consistently defeat 2 of his Pokemon, including Floatzel, is a very strong performance.

Volkner: You don't need rock polish to sweep this one. Jolteon effectively can't touch Torterra, so Torterra can easily set up 6 curses and use synthesis to heal the tiny bit of damage from iron tail. Raichu gets to use one signal beam before earthquake OHKOs it. At +5 or +6 physical defense, Volkner's 2 physical attackers can't do much, so Torterra can heal itself again and continue sweeping.

Rival (League): Torterra can't solo, but it can still use curse and synthesis to defeat both Staraptor and Heracross.

Bertha: Whiscash is easy setup bait. Even when sandstorm is making synthesis less effective, it is still more than enough to heal all the damage that Bertha can do to a Torterra with +6 physical defense. Wood hammer recoil isn't an issue because earthquake OHKOs everything except Gliscor.

Flint: Torterra needs rock polish to completely sweep but can take out 3 Pokemon without rock polish.

Lucian: Bronzong does not force Torterra to switch out if Torterra uses swords dance, as +2 wood hammer is a 2HKO. Torterra outspeeds Bronzong and can use synthesis after taking some recoil from the first wood hammer. After Bronzong, Torterra can defeat either Alakazam or Gallade. It's not a solo, but taking out 4 of his Pokemon is still pretty good.

Although there were a bunch of things I did differently with my Torterra, return and synthesis are definitely the most important. Return makes Torterra better at sweeping Gardenia and a few rival battles and completely turns the tables against Jupiter, while synthesis lets Torterra very reliably solo Volkner and Bertha and also heal a lot of damage in the last rival battle and against Lucian. With synthesis, the second half of the game is not nearly as bad as Drumstick described it.

Another issue that all of Drumstick, Moonlight, and Ryota mentioned is 4MSS. According to my logs, this sequence of moves is already enough to sweep many of the major battles.
razor leaf -> wood hammer
bite -> earthquake
curse
return -> synthesis
There are only 3 times when Torterra really wants another move: Aaron (swords dance and stone edge), Flint (rock polish), and Lucian (either swords dance or rock polish). You could still argue that Torterra has the worse 4MSS compared to the A tier things that people aren't trying to drop, but they have other minor issues that Torterra doesn't have. Being affected by 4MSS in 3 battles just doesn't seem like a very big problem.

I hope this post was enough to show what I did differently and how that caused a stronger and more consistent performance from my Torterra. So what do you think? Are these valid strategies that Drumstick, Moonlight, and Ryota overlooked, or did I set my standards too low?

Additionally, there are some other recently proposed updates that were almost completely ignored. Is Ikazuchi going to make these updates or no?

Magnemite from C to B
Croagunk from D to C

Wurmple (Dustox) from E to D
Buneary from D to C
Nosepass from E to C

Rotom from C to B
 
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Turtwig stuff
Gonna give my opinion on each of these, it's okay if we see Turtwig differently.

Just because you can setup 4-6 Curses on Gardenia's Turtwig, it isn't something I'd call remotely efficient. The rule of thumb Ryota and I used for BW1 and RBY was +2 was generally the highest you should go before trying to fit a square peg into a round hole (read: overboosting) unless the matchup was difficult enough to warrant more (see: most Champions). Even with a difficult battle, +4 or +6 can be pretty overkill and usually signifies you should just be using a type advantage. Also, while Return is renewable, it's generally more preferable on a Normal type Pokemon and Normal coverage just highlights the issues most Grasses in general have (see: Bulbasaur, Chikorita, Snivy, you get the point). Return also never hits super-effectively to boot despite being powerful.

Okay, I'll admit you can setup on Jupiter's Zubat somewhat. But you're forgetting something: Night Slash crits are kinda a thing. Without Return, what do you do here? What if you give it to another Pokemon? If so, Grotle wouldn't get Return until Lost Tower or Veilstone Game Corner.

Fantina I relatively agree on. Grotle is one of the better things there.

Rival is pretty irrelevant to me, and honestly is just a pain to setup on so you're better off brute forcing through Staravia.

"Being able to consistently defeat 2 of his Pokemon, including Floatzel, is a very strong performance."

Normally I'd agree but you need a Sitrus Berry to not die, so...also I've seen Torterra in chuggaaconroy's playthrough get OHKOed by Floatzel's Ice Fang. Again, "difficult game / battle " is not an argument. If a mon loses, it loses. Torterra is meh as all get out here.

Also, while you do say the stuff between Byron and Volkner is bad...that's a significant chunk of game you have to bench Torterra, a big point why I argue B-tier for it. Also, are you considering Maylene? Torterra kinda stomps her hard and is perfectly reasonable at level 32.

"Volkner: You don't need rock polish to sweep this one. Jolteon effectively can't touch Torterra, so Torterra can easily set up 6 curses"

6 Curses is overkill, like I said above. If you have to go to +6 in more than one matchup, that's not A tier to me, sorry. And Rock Polish is way better than Curse here, even if I'm not a big fan of that move.

"Bertha: Whiscash is easy setup bait. Even when sandstorm is making synthesis less effective, it is still more than enough to heal all the damage that Bertha can do to a Torterra with +6 physical defense. Wood hammer recoil isn't an issue because earthquake OHKOs everything except Gliscor."

Bertha you're better off Wood Hammering 3 threats and then dying. +6 with Curse is again overkill and highlights the ridiculous support Torterra needs.

"Flint: Torterra needs rock polish to completely sweep but can take out 3 Pokemon without rock polish."

I'm skeptical on the 3 Pokemon thing, but yes, it can sweep Flint with Rock Polish.

Yeah Lucian is a hard disagree unfortunately. Forcing in specific Pokemon is never really something I call reliable. Why would I give Torterra Swords Dance (even when you drown in money) for a grand total of one matchup anyway?

"With synthesis, the second half of the game is not nearly as bad as Drumstick described it."

People have said in the past self-healing moves generally shouldn't be considered for in-game over items, and on top of that, Synthesis only has a grand total of 5 PP. The only boss I consider this acceptable for is Fantina, specifically Toxic + Heal Order Vespiquen where you can get away with it without overcompensating (you don't need defensive buffs to not be 2HKOed by Shadow Ball). Why would I waste a valuable moveslot on Synthesis on a mon who very clearly has 4MSS?

My point with my original post was not that Torterra is a bad Pokemon. It's perfectly usable. The problem is you have to use it in very specific ways that aren't straightforward to be good, and I have never liked this about Pokemon in pretty much any game. I hate how BW2 Lucario uses Return over Force Palm when hitting neutrally with both (max Return hits harder than STAB and this is weird to get accustomed to even with a friendship evo). I hate how Piplup has to use stuff like Grass Knot, Bide, and Pluck instead of Water STAB until Empoleon.

Again, Turtwig is the embodiment of "just because you can doesn't mean you should." I don't know why the average player would use a Grass type on a Grass type Gym Leader. I don't know why you'd send out a Grotle to fight a Skuntank even if Night Slash is neutral. B tier is not bad at all, seriously. B tier means something is good overall just not exceptional.

Like, I'm happy you're trying to voice your opinion, don't get me wrong! There's nothing wrong with doing so. But your post has illustrated to me:

-Turtwig guzzles TMs like crazy. Even if they aren't particularly big ones, you want Return, Rock Polish, Razor Leaf, Wood Hammer, Earthquake. Bite / Crunch all throughout the game as moves, even if some are learned naturally.
-While it can sweep, it relies on Curse so much, it's a bigger crutch than Sleep Powder is for FRLG Bulbasaur
-+4 or +6 is over-the-top so much even in a few matchups that calling it A tier while doing so seems like you are ignoring the multiple hurdles you have to jump through to sweep a matchup. Just because you get a sweep doesn't mean you have an efficient Pokemon - look at Serperior with Coil
-"it's a hard boss / game" is again, not an argument
-you are to my memory one of the only people I've seen bring up consistent use of self-healing moves in more than one boss

Thanks for giving input dude. I just think Turtwig has too many issues to be called reliable without severely going out of your way.

Have a nice day / night!
 
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Rotom looks fine in B
Buneary should remain in D, It really falls off lategame
Seriously, Nosepass is not C Material at all, fighting and Ground are very common, also.. 75 SPatk Doesn't cut it at all
Croagunk looks like a C Tier mon
Dustox should not rise at all(lol base 50 offenses)
Magnemite looks fine to remain C But arguments can be made on it
 
Also, while Return is renewable, it's generally more preferable on a Normal type Pokemon and Normal coverage just highlights the issues most Grasses in general have (see: Bulbasaur, Chikorita, Snivy, you get the point). Return also never hits super-effectively to boot despite being powerful.

Okay, I'll admit you can setup on Jupiter's Zubat somewhat. But you're forgetting something: Night Slash crits are kinda a thing. Without Return, what do you do here? What if you give it to another Pokemon? If so, Grotle wouldn't get Return until Lost Tower or Veilstone Game Corner.

-Turtwig guzzles TMs like crazy. Even if they aren't particularly big ones, you want Return, Rock Polish, Razor Leaf, Wood Hammer, Earthquake. Bite / Crunch all throughout the game as moves, even if some are learned naturally.
I think wanting both return and rock polish is not bad at all by A tier standards. Kadabra wants grass knot and shadow ball. Gyarados wants dive, which is not a TM but is more expensive than many TMs. Azelf wants shadow ball, flamethrower, and psychic. Do you think return and rock polish are more expensive than the TMs that A tier things want?
Also, while you do say the stuff between Byron and Volkner is bad...that's a significant chunk of game you have to bench Torterra, a big point why I argue B-tier for it.
Aren't A tier things supposed to be bad for a chunk of the game, and things that aren't bad for such a chunk go in S tier? Kadabra is similarly bad against Team Galactic and worse against a few gym leaders, like Roark and Fantina. Giratina is bad against Bertha and Cynthia, which is a big chunk when you can use Giratina in only 6 or 7 major battles.
Also, are you considering Maylene? Torterra kinda stomps her hard and is perfectly reasonable at level 32.
I did consider Maylene. I just didn't mention her because I thought we all agreed that she's an easy win for Torterra.
I'm skeptical on the 3 Pokemon thing, but yes, it can sweep Flint with Rock Polish.
I already explained my results with Flint in page 4 of this thread.
Just because you can setup 4-6 Curses on Gardenia's Turtwig, it isn't something I'd call remotely efficient. The rule of thumb Ryota and I used for BW1 and RBY was +2 was generally the highest you should go before trying to fit a square peg into a round hole (read: overboosting) unless the matchup was difficult enough to warrant more (see: most Champions). Even with a difficult battle, +4 or +6 can be pretty overkill and usually signifies you should just be using a type advantage.

6 Curses is overkill, like I said above. If you have to go to +6 in more than one matchup, that's not A tier to me, sorry. And Rock Polish is way better than Curse here, even if I'm not a big fan of that move.

Bertha you're better off Wood Hammering 3 threats and then dying. +6 with Curse is again overkill and highlights the ridiculous support Torterra needs.

People have said in the past self-healing moves generally shouldn't be considered for in-game over items, and on top of that, Synthesis only has a grand total of 5 PP. The only boss I consider this acceptable for is Fantina, specifically Toxic + Heal Order Vespiquen where you can get away with it without overcompensating (you don't need defensive buffs to not be 2HKOed by Shadow Ball). Why would I waste a valuable moveslot on Synthesis on a mon who very clearly has 4MSS?

My point with my original post was not that Torterra is a bad Pokemon. It's perfectly usable. The problem is you have to use it in very specific ways that aren't straightforward to be good, and I have never liked this about Pokemon in pretty much any game. I hate how BW2 Lucario uses Return over Force Palm when hitting neutrally with both (max Return hits harder than STAB and this is weird to get accustomed to even with a friendship evo). I hate how Piplup has to use stuff like Grass Knot, Bide, and Pluck instead of Water STAB until Empoleon.

Again, Turtwig is the embodiment of "just because you can doesn't mean you should." I don't know why the average player would use a Grass type on a Grass type Gym Leader. I don't know why you'd send out a Grotle to fight a Skuntank even if Night Slash is neutral. B tier is not bad at all, seriously. B tier means something is good overall just not exceptional.

-While it can sweep, it relies on Curse so much, it's a bigger crutch than Sleep Powder is for FRLG Bulbasaur
-+4 or +6 is over-the-top so much even in a few matchups that calling it A tier while doing so seems like you are ignoring the multiple hurdles you have to jump through to sweep a matchup. Just because you get a sweep doesn't mean you have an efficient Pokemon - look at Serperior with Coil
-you are to my memory one of the only people I've seen bring up consistent use of self-healing moves in more than one boss
Both of us agree that Torterra can win battles by using curse and synthesis. However, you think these strategies are a lot more annoying than simply using the strongest attack move, and this should count against Torterra. I think being able to win with these strategies is a perfectly good reason to put Torterra in a higher tier. Is this a good enough summary of our disagreement? If yes, am I the only person who thinks we should be allowed to use 1/2 healing moves or use a stat boosting move more than twice in one battle?
 
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