Lower Tiers DPP NU Viability Ranking

Hello,

Despite I haven't too played to DPP NU yet, I would like to nominate two Pokémon I didn't see in the VR, maybe I'm blind or maybe they just aren't NU (if I remember correctly, they don't appear in the OU/UU/BL2 list) :

- Kingler has 130 BS Attack and access to both Swords Dance and Agility, making him a probably dangerous late-game Sweeper. A +2 Adamant LO boosted Kingler does more than 50% to max PV/Defense Poliwrath, Quagsire, Meganium, Vileplume and Lapras with Return. After an Agility, some scarf like Manectric and Typhlosion can still outspeed him, but Kingler stays faster than the majority of DPP NU metagame. He has some useful move like X-Scissor against Meganium and Superpower against Lapras.

- Sableye is probably not outclassed by Dusclops. Despite his pitiful BS, he can, with an appropriate spread, check Top Tier like Medicham, Tauros, Gardevoir, Skuntank and some variants of Medicham and Lickilicky. He has access to Recover, which is way more careful than Pain Split to use and he isn't afraid so much by Pursuit thanks to his great typing. I don't see where we can put him in this VR.

I hope I'm not off-topic and that my English isn't too bad for you. If it is, I apologise.
 
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Honko

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Some post-NU Classic ranking update suggestions. Will post reasoning on request, but the general gist of the rises is that Dark-types are underrated, fast dedicated anti-leads have been better recently, and TR is really scary.

Rises: Shiftry, Crawdaunt, Persian, Sneasel, Solrock
Drops: Dodrio, Electrode, Ninetales, Quagsire, Golem, Lapras, Piloswine, Gabite, Gastrodon, Rhydon, Articuno, Torkoal, Huntail, Kadabra

I also think it would be good to do some more cleaning out of the garbage from the lower ranks, in which case I would recommend merging D into a single rank and making the following moves:

Drop to D: Misdreavus, Bastiodon, Butterfree, Diglett, Girafarig, Golbat, Metang, Zangoose
Remove: Chatot, Lopunny, Luxray, Stantler, Swalot, Arbok, Ariados, Dewgong, Fearow, Kecleon, Minun, Murkrow, Octillery, Pidgeot, Plusle, Seaking, Seviper, Shelgon, Tropius

You could also probably add Kingler to C- and Sableye to D. Kingler seems kinda like Rhydon in that it's strong and can occasionally be really scary (as described by the above poster) but is too slow and too vulnerable to common moves to consistently do much. Sableye seems like a worse Dusclops for the most part, but walling Tauros and Medicham is still always cool, and maybe you can run something fun like Knock Off since you only need one moveslot for Recover.
 
Doesn't Sand Veil and Snow Cloak being banned in DPP through PR require mons like Gabite and Glaceon to removed from this list because they are banned? Personally I view the PR decision as questionable but Sand Veil / Snow Cloak was banned and mons with only those abilities ARE banned in every tier except Ubers (and maybe Little Cup?)
 

Bughouse

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I don't like dropping Rhydon or Ninetales, but yes to all the rest. I also strongly support all of your suggested rises (go Dark types!! I've been hyping these for ages) except for Persian.

I'm fine with all the drops/removals to/from D except maybe Diglett and Metang.


Reasons:
RP Rhydon is one of the best set up sweepers in the tier. It really is. It bops everything so hard.
Ninetales still an amazing check/counter to other Fire types and can still Hypnosis Slowking/Regirock that try to stop it.

Diglett and Metang are pretty bad but I do think they'd be better than anything else in D. Metang is pretty much straight up better than Wormadam-Trash for example as a Steel type stealth rock setter. Diglett also just doesn't really fit the definition of D. It's not a mon that needs substantial support. It's a C mon in that it has a definite niche but is held back by significant flaws.
 

Honko

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I think Typhlosion is a noticeably more consistent Pokemon than Ninetales, so it's weird to me to have them in the same rank. That's the main reason I want to move Ninetales down. I'd also be fine with moving Typhlosion to A- instead. I like Ninetales but there are a lot of games where it just can't do much, especially if you miss a Hypnosis.

Rhydon/Metang/Diglett I'm fine leaving where they are, I never use them and was mostly theorymonning, so I defer to you.

Alfalfa, the evasion ability ban only applies to OU because OU is the only tier that's still officially supported. This was called out in the PR thread. Whether or not it gets applied to unofficial UU and NU tournaments is up to the individual hosts. In NU's case, all recent tournaments have banned Hippopotas and Snover instead, so the rankings reflect that metagame with sand/hail banned but with Sandslash/Cacturne/Gabite/Glaceon unbanned.
 

Bughouse

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hm yeah I'd prefer moving Typh up then. One of the best wincons in the tier that doesn't require any set up.

As to Rhydon:
Reasonably common things that can stop 252+ Atk LO RP Rhydon once it's set up: choice scarf users, really fast mons, bulky Sandslash, bulky Poliwrath, Dusclops, Gligar... and that's about it. It does like 70% minimum to Regirock and 75% minimum to Meganium and Vileplume and 95% minimum against Slowking, when using Megahorn as the coverage move. Basically, it rips the most common defensive cores of the tier to bits. It's an amazing late game sweeper too because by that point all the checks listed above have usually taken substantial damage and so only choice scarfers and the fastest mons remain to revenge.

Also if you switch to Aqua Tail, you give up easy ways to beat Meganium and Slowking - though Stone Edge still does a good chunk - but can do more to Sandslash and Gligar.

I strongly recommend you try it. This hits 352 speed after the boost, enough for pokemon with 110 speed like Jumpluff and Tauros. Also obviously catches the many 105s and 100s as a result.

Rhydon @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 16 SpD / 240 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 29 HP
- Rock Polish
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge / Rock Blast
- Megahorn
 
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Honko

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Those numbers are impressive but I guess I just don't like how every scarfer in existence outspeeds and OHKOes. I'd probably be more inclined to try Sub + 3 attacks (with LO) instead so you don't get revenge killed so easily. Or even just CB so you can turn those 70-95%s into flat OHKOs. IDK, I'll play with it sometime. I'm ok leaving it in B- though. Also side note, I'd bump the speed on that set up to 252 so you beat min speed Poliwrath/Politoed.

Regarding Persian, the main reason I want to bump it up is because it's probably the best lead for Sun teams. I think that alone is enough to bump it to B- because Sun teams are really scary. It's also a decent general anti-lead that matches up well with stuff like Jynx, Medicham, Venomoth, and Charizard, plus it has that silly Nasty Plot set, but being the lead for Sun teams is the important one. It's crazy for Electrode to be in B+ and Persian in C+ when Persian-led Sun teams are so much better than Electrode-led Rain teams.
 
After extensive testing, I agree with Honko and Bughouse in moving Typhlosion up to at least A-. Scarf is an excellent cleaner, and Specs breaks shit. Typhlosion's spammable, accurate, powerful STAB move in Eruption, a nice speed tier, and Blaze makes it worthy of a bump upwards.

It's actually been quite a while since this was updated; tagging Oglemi since he's the dude who made this topic in the first place.
 

Bughouse

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Parasect should be on here somewhere (low, not saying it's good - still has tons of weaknesses, but it's better than everything in D and quite a few things in C). Spore is a niche on its own, but it also has a lot of free switches on Slowking, counters Poliwrath lacking Ice Punch, Electrics (mostly if choice), Grounds like Sandslash and Gligar, and all Grasses not named Vileplume. It's kinda got the best parts of defensive Meganium and Vileplume combined and amplified, but also with tons of its own weaknesses.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen4nu-376647
 
NUPL is over now, some of my nominations are more or less based on Pokemon's usage and effectiveness during this tour. I know I'm going to bring some huge rises, but I think the value and the impact of some Pokemon in the metagame are not well reflected in this current VR:

Rises :

-
A -> A+ : Gardevoir is an extremely versatile Pokemon and proves to be effective at everything she does. She's the most powerful Psychic-type available and has a bunch of useful tools for offensive and defensive tasks alike. The 3 Attack set hits everything hard thanks to her coverage, including Skuntank which has to be wary of what could fill the 4th movesolt (WoW, Destiny Bond, Sub...). As a defensive Pokemon one could think that she's outclassed by Hypno, but that's far from being the case since she's also able to check Medicham with a 252 / 252 spread as well as doing much better against things like Tauros (still not a very reliable DE switch-in though) and Ninetales by copying their abilities with Trace, which is also very helpful for purpose like revenge killing a Chlorophyll / Swift Swim sweeper or trapping a Magneton. Morever she's not as passive as Hypno due to her stronger Psychic and her access to WoW, which means that Skuntank cannot trap her as easily. Scarf, SubCM, Dual Screens... Gardevoir has just a plenty of alternative and her overall effectiveness makes her worthy to join the other offensive threats in A+, I think she could have gone straight up to S- if she wasn't slower than Skuntank.

-
B -> A- / A : Cradily saw a very good amount of usage, and for good reasons. It's probably the best answer to Tauros and Manectric available thanks to its typing and excellent stat spread which also allows it to check a bunch of other dangerous Pokemon like Haunter, Shiftry and Drifblim. Being able to set-up Rocks and to heal itself reliably is a very good feature, but Curse variants can also prove to be very scary for some teams (I think I saw it sweeping one in NUPL). Overall, it's something to take in count when teambuilding because you'll want to be able to break through Cradily reliably. Fortunately it has some exploitable weaknesses but it's still a very good all around wall nonetheless.

-
B -> A : I think that Grumpig should be in the same rank as Hypno at the very least due to how splashable it is. Hypno is a soft Fire-Check at best since it gets mauled by SD / DD Charizard, can't switch on Magmortar Fire Blast if SR are there even with Protect, can't stand two Eruptions from Specs Typhlosion and will be quickly overpowered by NP Jynx and Ninetales, whereas Grumpig fares better against all of them thanks to Thick Fat (assuming Sleep Clause is activated in the case of Jynx). It's true that the lack of Wish really hurts Grumpig, especially against things like Medicham. However, due to its added resistances, Grumpig doesn't need to heal itself against most of the metagame like Hypno does, and the added power and freedom for moveslots makes Grumpig less of an offensive liability and thus not as powerless against Skuntank, although it's still a big concern.

-
B- -> B+ / A- : Camerupt seems to be mostly known as TR Sweeper, but in my opinion it's best set is the specially defensive tank. Camerupt is a full counter to Electrics unless they carry Hidden Power Water, which is unlikely. It also makes a fine Fire check, although it's unfortunate that it cannot reliably face Zard as you'll probably want SR / Lava Plume / Earth Power / Explosion most of the time and because Air Slash 3HKOs whereas Focus Blast from Magmortar does a lot too. On the offensive side, it's very nice to have a Fire Type that pressures Regirock and can boom on Water-types and other Special walls, which means Camerupt is still threatening offensively even if its meant to take hits instead.

-
B- -> B : Despite the existence of Floatzel, Sharpedo has been used more from what I've seen, and not only as a suicide lead (which works very well btw). Although the loss of Speed is certainly detrimental, the increased firepower and the Dark STAB really makes a lot of difference in a tier with Slowking being this common. It's coverage (which includes Zen Headbutt for Poliwrath) and STAB Crunch makes Sharpedo a much more dangerous Pokemon for bulky teams than Floatzel and leaves it with no true counter. Its place in NU is perfectly justified in my opinion.

-
C+ -> B : Rapidash is a cool offensive Fire-check. Unlike Ninetales it's faster than Zard, Typh and the aformentionned fox. Being physically oriented allows it to pressure team that relies on Special walls like Lickilicky to check the usual Fire types and it's access to Megahorn is a blessing against Slowking and Grumpig. Unfortunately, it faces 4MSS since you would typically want all of Morning Sun, Flare Blitz, Megahorn, Double-Edge / Return (otherwise you can't check opposing Fire types) and WoW / Toxic so you're not completely unable to scratch Regirock.

-
C -> B : If Missy really was C material I doubt she would have seen NUPL usage in serious teams. Even though she's still frail she doesn't die as easily as Haunter and she doesn't have a Psychic weakness, making her a better stallbreaker and probably the best anti-spinner in NU. Her speed isn't incredible by any means but she's fatser than Skuntank, Medicham, Gardevoir and Hirmonchan so she can either burn or hit them with Shadow Ball first. Levitate + Ghost Type gives her the same perks than Haunter, which means she can pivot on Tauros, Sandslash, Hitmonchan...

-
C- -> B / B+ : I think I saw Flareon a couple of time in NUPL, but anyway it's clearly above anything else in C-. The Stealth Rock weakness is certainly a problem, but Flareon still remains one of the best Fire check in the tier and I think the best one with a reliable recovery move, which is huge. It's also a good answer to Jynx and most special attackers in general, especially since unlike most other special walls, it doesn't carry a weakness to Fighting, exploitable by anything with Focus Blast, or to Pursuit. It's also one of the few good phazers in the tier.

-
Unranked -> B+ / A- : In my opinion Sableye is a much better defensive Ghost type than Dusclops, which doesn't have a reliable recovery move, takes a lot from Medicham Zen Headbutt, is weak to Pursuit, can't check Psychic types, can't work as a Stall breaker... All these reasons justify why Sableye is a solid Pokemon in NU. It's main problem comes from its horrible stats which prevents it from checking everything it wants at the same time on both sides, but being able to check Tauros and Medicham as the same time is huge.

-
D- -> C+ : Very similar to Sableye : its stats are laughable, but its typing is highly valuable. With an appropriate spread, you can check all of Tauros, Jynx, Haunter, Gardevoir, Shiftry... at the same time. It has some obvious flaws though, like the Fire weakness, utter passivity and being dead if Magneton shows up, but the ability to check this number of threats in one slot is something desirable.

Drops:

-
A- -> B+/ B : Vileplume lacks real defensive utility and barely checks anything aside from Poliwrath, Shiftry and maybe Floatzel. The Sunny Day variant is an inferior Victreebel that sets-up more easily and can make use of its best STAB only if Sun is up, it struggles against all special walls if it doesn't put them asleep and is outspeeded by most Scarfer even when Sun is up. Right now I think that the offensive variant with both Sleep Powder and Synthesis is its best set right now, but the lack of speed, power and crippling weaknesses still prevent Vileplume from sharing the same rank as things like Drifblim.

-
A- -> B+ : Even though I think that Meganium is a better defensive Pokemon that Vileplume due to the better bulk, lack of Psychic weakness and the added Ground resistance, it still doesn't bring much help against the most metagame defining offensive threats. On top of that it's really passive and thus allows free switch-ins for a bunch of dangerous stuff. Cradily's typing and access to SR gives Meganium some serious competition as a defensive Grass Type.

-
B -> B- : I think that Rain is an inconsistent playstyle due to the number of counterplay you might bring even without thinking about it. Despite its access to Shadow Ball, Gorebyss is unable to 2HKO most Slowking. Special walls like Lickilicky can just spam Wish and Protect until Rain fades, Gardevoir can trace Swift Swim and revenge kill it afterwards, most Scarfer will outspeed it, and almost every other Water-types are troublesome as well (Politoed, Poliwrath, Lapras, Quagsire, mantine, Floatzel and Golduck).

I agree with every other nominations made above, except for some Mons which I think should stay where they are : Dodrio ( brutal against teams lacking Regirock or to a lesser extent Solrock, Rhydon, Golem or Probopass), Ninetales (rise Typhlosion instead), Lapras (beat most common water types answers with STAB Ice Beam and thunderbolt and has some neat tools like Heal Bell and DD), Rhydon (what Bughouse said), Articuno (SubToxic is extremely threatening in PU despite the popularity of Muk and Metang and the lack of good spinners, in NU that's another story) and Zangoose (has SD, Quick attack, Close Combat, Night Slash and a better attack stat than Tauros).

I also think that you could just remove the entire D Rank since aside from a couple of Pokemon nothing else isn't worth using, just rise Granbull (potentially dangerous with Quick Feet activated), Regigigas (may work with Pursuit support), Murkrow (more dangerous than Skuntank outside of Explosion) and Octillery (strong under Tr with water spout and just like Lapras it scares typical Water-types answers with Energy Ball and Fire Blast).
 

Bughouse

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The main change I’d make is skuntank to S+ and possibly Tauros and/or Medicham to S.

It’s really rare for me to make a team that couldn’t be improved by adding Skuntank. It has the strongest priority if I’m not mistaken, as well as boom, pursuit, as well as taunt and other shenanigans. It’s customizable to what your team needs most with its precise move set and item. It can use everything from Lum to LO to Shuca to blackglasses. It can run Jolly to hit a really good speed tier, if necessary, though adamant is generally fine.

Medicham just doesn’t feel S+ in that it cant be put on literally any team.

Tauros has somewhat suffered from the rise of Cradily and also bulkier teams in general.
 

Honko

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Hypno should drop to B+ or B. It's basically a matchup pick now; if I think my opponent will use an offensive team without Skuntank, Hypno is still potentially a great choice, but otherwise it's just not worth it. The meta has too much Skuntank and too much Toxic nowadays for Hypno to be worthy of A.

I still think Poliwrath and Shiftry stand out above everything else in B+ and would fit better in A-. Poliwrath for its ability to switch into Regirock and Floatzel/Sharpedo and gain momentum with Sub + Encore/Hypnosis/Toxic, Shiftry mainly for its mixed set which is really hard for a lot of teams to switch into and at worst can usually trade with Explosion.

Dodrio can be super scary, but it's also one of the more matchup-dependent Pokemon in the tier which makes it less consistent than anything else in the A-ranks (including Poliwrath and Shiftry), especially with Regirock being the #1 Pokemon in usage these days. I'd drop it to B+.

I disagree with moving Misdreavus up to B. It's bad and outclassed by other Ghosts at basically anything it wants to do. Nobody used it in NUPL this year, and although it has been used a couple of times in previous years, so has shit like Kecleon and Arbok. It's not 100% outclassed and is usable as a stallbreaker, so I'm ok with it being somewhere in the C ranks, but it should not go higher than C+.

Solrock should move up to B- as a decent lead, especially (but not only) for TR. Granbull should be in C for its wallbreaking power, and Bughouse makes a good case for Parasect in C as well.

These guys all feel a little too high and could stand to drop a rank or two imo:
* Electrode (not as individually threatening as anything else in B+, and rain teams aren't particularly important)
* Piloswine (its main niche is offensive SR lead, but it loses to basically every other lead except Regirock)
* Regice (not a bad Pokemon, but feels pretty similar to Articuno and Ampharos so I'm not sure why it's a full letter rank ahead of them)
* Flareon (pretty niche, and it has a lot of competition as a Fire/Grass check from more generally useful Pokemon)
* Gabite (haven't seen one in forever, and on paper it looks too slow against offense and too weak against bulky teams despite those awesome STABs)
* Metang (can't really see any reason to use this)
* Chatot (never seen it and don't buy that it would work; seems like D material)

I'd also recommend merging D into a single rank since I don't see any meaningful distinction between the Pokemon in there. They're all Pokemon that have at least a theoretically viable niche that is almost never worth it.

TL;DR suggestions:
* Hypno: A -> B+
* Dodrio: A- -> B+
* Poliwrath: B+ -> A-
* Shiftry: B+ -> A-
* Electrode: B+ -> B
* Misdreavus: B -> C+
* Piloswine: B -> C+
* Regice: B -> B-
* Flareon: B- -> C+
* Gabite: B- -> C+
* Metang: C+ -> C-
* Solrock: C -> B-
* Chatot: C- -> D
* Granbull: D -> C
* Parasect: Unranked -> C
* Merge D into a single rank
 

Bughouse

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Why is Venomoth ranked so high? Whats its niche and how does it do it well?
Venomoth has quite a few things going for it:
  • 90 Base Speed is generally speaking good for the tier. It most often outruns probably 4 opposing Pokemon. Sometimes 3, sometimes 5, etc. But 4 is probably right on average. On average, I'd say most teams have one Pokemon in the 95-115 range and one Scarfer.
  • With that speed, it has access to the third fastest reliable sleep move in the tier, behind Jynx's Lovely Kiss and Jumpluff's Sleep Powder. Jumpluff is quite rare, since it has quite a few flaws that make even it unappealing most of the time, despite its blazing fast Sleep Powder. Jynx is also not too common outside of the lead slot, since its so physically frail, pursuit weak, hazard weak, etc. So in terms of a midgame sleeper, Venomoth is probably the best/most reliable option.
  • Venomoth also has Tinted Lens, which basically just renders resistances irrelevant. There's nothing in the tier that actually "resists" both STABs other than technically Shedinja. If you put a Life Orb or even Choice Specs on Venomoth, it 2HKOs a large portion of the tier.
  • So on most any set, 3 moves will probably be dual-STAB and sleep powder. The 4th move is much more up for grabs, but it has a lot of decent options.
    • Roost to stay healthy throughout the game. It can find opportunities to roost against things like bulky grass types or Nidoqueen (not too much else though).
    • It can lay Toxic Spikes, which can be a huge problem for some teams. (Similarly, it also absorbs Toxic Spikes, which can be a huge benefit for teams so they're not weak to it.)
    • Stun Spore for classic "Double Powder" action. Sleep one thing, then paralyze the next switch in.
    • U-Turn to pivot out of the rare Pokemon that you really just can't break, as it switches in. So for example, you can U-Turn out of a SpDef Lickilicky that is switching in, into a Hitmonchan/Medicham to threaten it with Fighting STAB.
    • Psychic, which hits some bulky poison types like Nidoqueen or Muk considerably harder than a STAB with Tinted Lens does.
 
Venomoth has quite a few things going for it:
  • 90 Base Speed is generally speaking good for the tier. It most often outruns probably 4 opposing Pokemon. Sometimes 3, sometimes 5, etc. But 4 is probably right on average. On average, I'd say most teams have one Pokemon in the 95-115 range and one Scarfer.
  • With that speed, it has access to the third fastest reliable sleep move in the tier, behind Jynx's Lovely Kiss and Jumpluff's Sleep Powder. Jumpluff is quite rare, since it has quite a few flaws that make even it unappealing most of the time, despite its blazing fast Sleep Powder. Jynx is also not too common outside of the lead slot, since its so physically frail, pursuit weak, hazard weak, etc. So in terms of a midgame sleeper, Venomoth is probably the best/most reliable option.
  • Venomoth also has Tinted Lens, which basically just renders resistances irrelevant. There's nothing in the tier that actually "resists" both STABs other than technically Shedinja. If you put a Life Orb or even Choice Specs on Venomoth, it 2HKOs a large portion of the tier.
  • So on most any set, 3 moves will probably be dual-STAB and sleep powder. The 4th move is much more up for grabs, but it has a lot of decent options.
    • Roost to stay healthy throughout the game. It can find opportunities to roost against things like bulky grass types or Nidoqueen (not too much else though).
    • It can lay Toxic Spikes, which can be a huge problem for some teams. (Similarly, it also absorbs Toxic Spikes, which can be a huge benefit for teams so they're not weak to it.)
    • Stun Spore for classic "Double Powder" action. Sleep one thing, then paralyze the next switch in.
    • U-Turn to pivot out of the rare Pokemon that you really just can't break, as it switches in. So for example, you can U-Turn out of a SpDef Lickilicky that is switching in, into a Hitmonchan/Medicham to threaten it with Fighting STAB.
    • Psychic, which hits some bulky poison types like Nidoqueen or Muk considerably harder than a STAB with Tinted Lens does.
Damn, interesting to see Venomoth actually be good in a tier prior to Gen 5.
 

Expulso

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hey! i played this tier this NUPL and thought it was super fun, so figured i'd revive the thread with some nominations.

:slowking: Slowking: S- -> S+
Slowking is just so good in this tier. CM sets are nearly unbeatable once the opponent's Skuntank has been crippled [see: nupl wk5 me vs Staxi, where we both successfully cripple each other's answers and get into a CM Slowking war for the game], especially if Slowking runs mono-attacking with Rest to stop Toxic. It also has tons of utility as a general mixed wall.

^ This is the only one I feel strongly enough about to nominate. However, I feel like my personal ranking of the top 6 mons would be:
Slowking
Skuntank
Regirock
Charizard = Tauros
~~~~~~(big gap)~~~~~~~
Medicham

:magmortar: Magmortar: A+ -> A or A-
I have seen next to 0 Magmortar usage; that doesnt necessarily mean it isnt good, ofc, but that low usage is due to:
- low Grass-type usage giving it few opportunities to switch in
- the presence of common resists like Charizard / Slowking / Regirock preventing it from just spamming its STAB
- slow bulk / SR weakness / no recovery meaning it only has one shot to make much progress vs offensive teams
I think that this makes counterplay to it too easy for it to be an A+ mon.

:Typhlosion: Typholsion: A- -> A
Typh is an equal or better offensive Fire than Magmortar; without priority, a Scarf Explosion can easily clean weakened teams, and a Specs Explosion is basically impossible to switch into.

:Drifblim: Drifblim: A- -> A (or A+?): tons of Drifblim usage this tour, very effective as a spinblocker and/or late-game cleaner with CM, spinblocking is huge to keep up Rocks vs mons like Zard / other fires (and to keep up the less-used but very effective TSpikes).

After those changes I honestly think that the A+ and A mons are all about equal in viability (i.e. I dont think Garde, Haunter, and Jynx are better than all the rest of the A rank mons). those two ranks can probably be combined into one, tbh. Gardevoir is probably the best and the only one I'd be determined to see stay in A+.

Now i'll just go thru the ranks and say which mons are clearly better/worse than others in the rank.

Mid A Rank: Hypno seems p clearly the worst here, can go A-, I'd much rather use Licki, which checks Psychics/Ghosts without being Pursuit trapped while having more versatility with the option to run Curse.

Low A Rank: Drifblim is clearly the best of these, should rise as I said above. next best are probably Typhlosion and Nidoqueen, which could probably rise to A.

High B Rank: Poliwrath, Shiftry, Venomoth, Cacturne, Politoed, and Meganium (in that order) are better than the rest imo. Grumpig and Electrode can prob drop, hypno seems to do grumpig's stuff better and electrode doesnt rly have enough power to do much offensively.

Mid B: This seems fine, i should explore some more of these mons!

Low B: Linoone ^^^^ Linoone is a huge threat rofl it's legitimately extremely threatening. counterplay is p much limited to a >80% Regirock/Cradily or a faster Ghost-type (Scarf Haunter or something like Endure Salac Drifblim)
wk 6 - linoone breaks thru 3 or 4 mons (but requires a lot of support)

High C: Articuno is definitely viable, does a similar thing to SubTox Charizard with incredible Special bulk and a good speed tier.
nupl semis - articuno puts in lots of work vs me

hope this was helpful to start more discussion about this tier, which I thought was very fun.

going to tag other ppl that played / built for this tier in NUPL so that they can give their opinions if they want.
 

Rabia

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GP & NU Leader
Would like to see discussion on Hypno's placement because I legit have not seen it used like, at all, and yet it is ranked very high. It got used an entire one time this NUPL (a win), and I don't recall seeing it throughout classic at all. to me this reeks of relic syndrome, i.e. it was once great and just has fallen out of favor. I think if you're gonna go for a defensive Psychic-type that Slowking and Gardevoir are significantly better options that are much less limited in what they can do, while Lickilicky is the better fat Wish passer.

Gonna push back on Slowking even being the best S rank; I think cheese strats with it are a valid point to bring up + it's the best overall defensive Pokemon in the tier, but I don't see the same consistency in it taking over games/applying pressure as I do with Charizard and Skuntank. This is probably because the most used set from my experience is still the standard boring utility one with dual STAB moves + status + Slack Off, and while this set is obviously fucking great, I find it being prone to getting overwhelmed at times by aggressive play and proper prediction. It can feel like getting caught out once by a stray super effective coverage move can fuck you over for the rest of the game.

I'd probably move Sharpedo up to B+; used it a lot during classic and lead sets are pretty consistent at forcing team reveals and applying good pressure. Taunt + Aqua Jet is really nice utility to have right off the rip and it can at least bother Slowking in later stages of the game should you keep the shark around.

Drifblim is really weird for me because it has a metric ton of good sets, but each of them feel really manageable; it always seems like a Pokemon you have to matchup fish with. I haven't really been convinced either using Drifblim or playing against it that there's a single dominant set that just pushes it into the upper echelons. I could get behind a rise to A because of fairly prolonged dominance at this point, but I don't know if I'm sold yet on it being A+.

Pretty impartial on whether Magmortar drops or not, they're pretty much always Choice item sets, and although Magmortar is an extremely potent breaker, I think the lack of Team Preview hurts it in that it takes a bit longer to figure out what your opponent's means of counterplay is, which harms it as a prediction-reliant attacker.
 

Bughouse

Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
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yeah I pretty much exclusively used Hypno to have a strong jynx switch in and even then I teched it out to the point it's not even really a jynx counter... sub NP jynx would beat what I used. It's not a particularly reliable pokemon and has serious 4MSS/bad typing for its role. Lickilicky is by far the best wish mon in the tier.

Hypno @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder Wave
- Counter
- Baton Pass
- Psychic

I agree also that Slowking is not the best pokemon in the tier. I still believe as I have for years that that title belongs to Skuntank.
 

fatty

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NUPL Champion
ye hypno is bad, in almost all situations you’d rather be running slowking or a different wisher. insomnias cool but eh jynx is winning anyways unless played rly well. I’d throw it in mid B.

idk how much of a disagreement it is because obviously slowking is still S, but I think ppl are shirking off how important slowking is to this tier. it’s essentially the best / only consistent answer to the strong fires running around, especially charizard. to the point where if you’re not running regirock (which should be S rank as well) you should almost 100% be running slowking, and often times together. not to mention, it’s the best intitial medicham switch in (tpunch wins but that’s why I said initial). shit, it’s basically the best blanket check to everything. slowking is going to do what you need it to do almost every match and it fits on almost every team. while it might be kinda silly to compare which mon is more “S rank”, I think it’s interesting that skuntank is heralded as better when from my view tanks main purpose is so that people can deal with slowking, opening up holes for the rest of a team.

cacturne, shiftry, meganium, and venomoth all probably deserve A- at least. cacturne is the best spiker in the term and actually finds ample opportunity to switch in on important nu mon. shifty is one of the best mid game breakers in the game with strong prio to boot. SD Meganium is a great set that honestly just eats some teams due to how easy it is to set up. and venomoth does a shit ton with its moveset, essentially being able to run mono bug with little impunity and being the epitome of offensive utility with sleep and uturn.

vileplume, cradily, and magmortar def need to drop, usage and usefulness just isn’t there. more controversially, Garde should probably be lower too (A- but I could see A), there’s other good psychics both offensively and defensively and it’s skuntank bait.
 

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