Posting this on behalf of BKC. You can PM him for a paperback edition.
When some of the players posting in this thread have gross misunderstanding of DPP as evidenced by some of the shocking sentiments they express then it follows that they misrepresent the generation. I suspect there is an agenda of bias toward laziness and what is easy as opposed to what is right to these sentiments as well but rather than throw around theories I will attempt to show why I find these posts to be so distastefully incorrect.
I myself am quite confident that Latias' impact is hardly felt enough in either direction to call it positive or negative. These "complaints" about DPP are merely buzzwords for things that people who don't play the gen if they don't have to for an official tournament (so for most people this extends to Classic and for some others it might to helping their teammates in SPL/WCoP) dislike when their teammate struggles with them in SPL and WCoP, pulling the sideline spectator expertise that our community so excels at. Lead matchup, no team preview, paraspam, trapping, Jirachi, Breloom, Machamp, Infernape... I'm not saying that these aren't prominent things that need to be taken into consideration but when the complaints come largely from a portion of the playerbase that makes no attempt to deal with these issues and instead just complains then they don't see how they can be dealt with other than blindly going into games with what they've been handed and thus it should be no surprise that their views are so off. It's the equivalent of when someone goes into a current gen tier, whether playing it for some tournament they signed up for or spectating and being loud and going wow this tier sucks; in Smogtours-esque fashion, "how are you supposed to beat xyz" and of course the people who actually play the tier and understand it go "well if you actually played you'd know xyz" and this is pretty much what's happening here. It's very popular to shit on DPP these days and while I'd never say it's immune to criticism - I've been known to get frustrated myself - the criticisms largely come from ignorant places where the player's own shortcoming and/or misunderstanding of the metagame is ignored and the tier is bashed instead. If someone who mainly plays another tier whose main experience of SM was his teammates' SPL/WCoP games and maybe some random games in Tour started shitting on the tier because AshGren Magearna Zyg Pex whatever then he would (rightfully) get shit on too.
This isn't meant to be some gotcha journalism-type exposure of the psychology behind the influential circlejerking that so plagues our community though, so let's talk facts of the metagame. Contrary to what is being claimed here, Latias actually helps defend against these horrific threats without doing anything out of the ordinary to help them in the sense that it's not pushing anything anywhere near an edge. Its influence will be felt but you will hardly have to bend over backwards to account for it; I can think of about 15 things that I will likely have to go out of my way to handle when making my next team. In addition to being very familiar with Latias in OU from prior tournaments and just my own general interest, I have played the hell out of the ladder and I have also watched a lot of games from it. It really isn't that different.
MagTrio + Latias being overwhelming is a myth at best and false propaganda at worst. Cresselia on those teams, while still not consistent thanks to the incredible matchup-based nature of both the strategy and the effectiveness of the trappers, is still superior to Latias - matter of fact, Latias would provide a great weapon against these teams (a recurring theme that we'll revisit later in this post). It's got much, MUCH better bulk, and does not possess some of Latias' nasty weaknesses - I mean, the Scarf Flygon thing is bad enough, but when your unbeatable trap team is perfectly poised to get completely bent over by Mamoswine then I have a hard time buying it. I'll cover my bases here and throw in a plea to not read this as "latias loses to mamo lol what's the big deal." That's just one example. If you know the tier, there are SO many ways to fuck with Cress (or Lati) but when the players complaining about it aren't familiar enough with the tier to explore options (very likely because they don't build their own teams and also don't play with awareness of the threat which is another matter I'll get to soon) then it is hardly fair to blame Lati. I mean, half these trap teams struggle with something as simple as Roar Swampert (and Hippowdon), for Christ's sake.
I mean some people want to ban Dugtrio alone for Christ's sake because they play on autopilot without thinking with teams they did not build and then they get picked apart by it. This isn't me slandering people for not making their own teams, this is explaining that if you don't understand how the team works against certain styles such as this one (because if you build a DPP team this is something you must consider and what's more is that it's not even that hard to prepare for) then maybe your opinion is colored a bit by the fact that you don't get it and you're attributing the problem to the wrong things. The options that deal with these teams are plentiful both in the teambuilder and in the fact that you can absolutely maneuver your game in such a way that you don't fall into the trap your opponent is trying to lure you into. However, to do so, you must play with awareness, and that is another thing many newer players fail to do and thus blame the tier.
"Oh well how was I supposed to know he had that?" By experiencing the tier and thinking right from turn 1. You don't have to predict their entire team before you've made your first move but you should be considering what they could have. When I see Metagross lead I'm thinking a lot of things, but one thing that's very likely is Tyranitar/Dragonite/Starmie-type bulky offense, often with a Scarf Rotom or Heatran. In the opening turns as I scout my opponent I'm thinking further still as to how he's playing and how much information I can get from him, kind of like trying to fill in a team preview if that helps it make sense. If you want to just autopilot games and take things as you see them then no wonder you struggle with DPP. You can't be consistent while ignoring one of the most important aspects of the tier. I get that if you started in the current Tour gens and you're used to team preview then it's a new idea to you but that is not the tier's fault and it does not make it less skillful. (Nor am I saying it's more skillful. It's just different.) This is something that applies to earlier gens too, although no one ever seems to complain about it there even though figuring out whether that ADV SkarmBliss stall team has an Aerodactyl, Starmie or Dugtrio last is a real bitch, I promise you. This leads me into another point misrepresented by the current generation: "DPP is too powerful to not have team preview." I get it, but at the same time I fervently disagree, not least because the power of defensive teams contradicts this brutally and offensive teams have more than enough ways to check various stuff. You not knowing the metagame as well and expecting to succeed regardless via autopiloting good teams from good players does not fly here like in the preview gens. That is not a flaw, if anything it's a positive. You cannot be consistently good at the gen without knowing it at least to some degree (please don't misrepresent this as me saying it can only be done by the elites from Shoddy days) whereas in the current gens you see a lot of players who grab the easy-to-pilot teams (half the reason they're as easy to pilot is not just because they're built well with good flowing synergy but because even if you're not an expert you know roughly how to pilot them before turn 1 based on what you see) and do pretty well (this is not a knock against those generations at all, I think they are excellent - again, it's just different). The tier is not flawed because a team you had was brutally violated by a top threat. In a similar vein, a team is not weak to something because you unnecessarily threw your answer due to not knowing the tier. I would never say the tier is immune to matchup but to me it is crystal clear that if the team is built well then you should be able to play your way out of anything (and this almost seems self-evident because being able to play against anything is part of what makes a good team, and DPP has a plethora of options for you to be able to do this well). If the extent of your yearly DPPing is "hey can i get some teams for cup" once a year before you lose and go "w/e dpp is trash lol" and the rest is armchairing it up where possible then your opinion doesn't mean much, especially regarding Latias. Just because you do not personally like an aspect of a tier doesn't make it or the tier bad. This kind of thinking is what I see when someone complains about these things, and when I see the claims that Latias makes these awful aspects worse when in fact it helps defend against them while not particularly exacerbating the issues themselves, to put it lightly, it just screams of ignorance or willful bias.
What I'm saying is "not only are these qualities of DPP you perceive as negative not so, but Latias hardly does much to enhance them, and thinking otherwise is the result of probably not looking past the surface; matter of fact, Latias helps with these undesirable strategies." Lead matchup? Latias checks things really nicely (but not in an overwhelming way whatsoever), so it's less important. The fact that Latias is really not overwhelming is so important here because it means that the extra option it gives us to deal with threats does not come with the undesirable side effect of being overpowered or even anything out of the ordinary for the tier, thus meaning you don't exactly have to run it, but it is nice to have (the fact we get along more than just fine now is a testament to this). No team preview? Similar sentiment; Asta made this point as well -
Para spam? First I should mention that the "it gives jira clef tar another victim" argument blows my mind - it's not good enough to be unbanned? It's not like you're forced to use this shitty Pokemon that leaves you open to everything, like say Rotom-H "countering" Genesect for anyone who remembers that period. Not to mention if a Pokemon is making you weak to those guys and your team can't handle it... don't use that Pokemon, and if the team isn't working out, oh well. That happens all the time now, and I especially don't think there'd be an excuse with Latias considering that it is hardly providing some defensive utility that doesn't already exist; it just helps out a lot and not at all in an overwhelming way. Anyway yeah if you sit around passively against those teams then sure Latias will just be a victim, but if you get out in front then it can topple them pretty easily. They'll have to tread lightly around the Pokemon that can just as easily mess them up as can be messed up by them. This is an example of how it can go either way depending on how the players play... which is what Pokemon's all about. See the Breloom/Ape vs. Latias dynamic for another example, or Jirachi vs. Latias for yet another, or Machamp vs. Latias for another still. Already went over how it assists with trapping too. Hazards are hardly pushing Lati over the edge either with the prominence of Clef, Skarm, Zong. Tar/Jira/Tran don't exactly immediately crumple and there are ways of dealing with hazards, a threat which should be accounted for in general.
Latias isn't a special case to prepare for nor play against. Not that the so-called negative qualities can't be frustrating at times, but I have a hard time even considering them as negative. In any case, Latias does not make them significantly more powerful at all. Matter of fact, its biggest value is providing a great, non-overpowered weapon to fight them with.
Mixape is hardly a great stall remedy. It's a reasonable threat for sure, no denying that, but Latias is hardly turning it from an unstoppable stall killer into a waste of a slot. Starmie, SpDef Hippowdon and SpDef Nidoqueen all really get in the way of MixApe's antics, in addition to various other Pokes like Milotic and bulky Zapdos that can stop it in its tracks, Scarf Rotom always being a threat, moveslot syndrome making it account for ScarfTar as well, and not even being able to kill healthy SpDef Jirachi... plus, with Latias being vulnerable to Pursuit (like many other Pokemon on stall that are tasked with handling certain Pokes that are paired with the Pursuit to do their job) then if Ape really is such a stall killer just bait it in and trap its ass and then you should be good to go. Band Ape was the best set even pre-Latias because of U-turn bypassing just about everything except Nidoqueen's Poison Point (and in situations like that or faced with lots of Protect Pokes its real value lies in setting up its teammates anyway).
Latias checks a variety of offensive Pokes which can ease you up to take on stall (this isn't even mentioning it can be a significant weapon against stall itself). I don't think the dynamics of offense against stall particularly change (at all, but definitely not for the worse). Latias doesn't particularly help defense too much... it's a nice Poke to have for offensive-defensive purposes, but Pursuit is already a significant component of making several types of DPP offense work and a Pokemon so vulnerable to it (even moreso than Starmie) isn't going to make waves either way. It gives defensive teams some nice options to work with but offense hardly has to go out of its way if at all for the kinds of needed-Pursuit-anyway styles to function. It's not pushing anything over the edge. Notice the theme: it's good, great even, nice tool to have on a variety of different teams across all styles, but not overwhelming anyone with a good team and a brain by itself anytime soon.
I left out most of the rest because I already addressed why trapping is hardly a big deal, Latias or no and it'd actually be less of a big deal with Lati, but this part stuck out to me especially. Dragon Pulse has 16 PP, and does 37-44 to SpD Jira (38-45 if you're using the one that hits 244). This is getting stalled out barring some seriously absurd consecutive crits. Even if it's something ridiculous like max SpA for some reason, that's got 23% to 2HKO through Lefties (11% with max SpD) and Wish + Tect is still gonna mess with it hard. Wish CM (which is already a great set) similarly fucks with it. So does Sub CM (same thing). Sub flinch still forces it to waste Pulses and it has to Recover a lot, not to mention it needs 2 CMs to even break the Sub. Some mix sets (with Shuca Berry for Dug and a Hidden Power for Magnezone) even run Icy Wind. Let's not exaggerate.
Well, yeah. That's why it's being tested, because it's good enough to help check things. It not being overwhelming while helping do these things (I mean seriously if you want to plop Lati on an otherwise really Breloom weak team and act like it solves your issues then I have bad news for you) is why it's worth a spot in the metagame. It'd be weird if it didn't influence the meta somehow. This isn't a bad thing. It's hardly doing it to a ridiculous extent though... hell, I wouldn't even say it's doing it to a notable extent. Like I'd legitimately be surprised if someone had an already good DPP team that couldn't handle Latias. That's the entire impetus behind the test.
It has never been easier to get into old generations. The resources we have are absolutely endless. Pages upon pages of incredibly specific, high-level discussion in RoA and years of public replays from the best of the best duking it out. People play for fun all the time on Smogtours, most top players are more accessible than ever with Discord and are more than willing to answer a few questions you might have about the tier as long as you're POLITE/not a dick (i.e. "can I have your teams lol") and don't escalate it into a full-on tutoring session, the RoA room is pretty great, Pokemon Perfect hosts tours all the time where good players join... it's almost ridiculous honestly. Latias being added might mean the players who work harder might benefit a little more. What an awful idea.
It legitimately blows my mind that anyone would give a fuck about the people who don't play DPP. I'll just quote pasy's post here
People who build tweak their teams nonstop even in the current meta. I could argue that several natural developments over the past several years have "forced" (I use this term lightly because nothing has been forced, simply a matter of preference) much more significant changes and tweaks to/entirely new teams than Latias. There's really not much of a difference. Also, people who constantly ask for others' teams do so nonstop even in the current meta, even when they have entire arsenals of great teams.
I'm sorry man but this is literally "I don't want Latias because I'll have to tweak my teams." Think about that.
You'd end up tweaking your teams for the various meta changes regardless, btw, this is just another one of those that also has the benefit of helping out in the eternal quest to check everything.
You also continuously argue to make things easier for people who don't play the tier unless they "have" to because they dislike it or are lazy. I personally value the player who worked hard to understand the tier because he wants to do well in it as opposed to the guy who had everything handed to him, allowing him to cynically autopilot.
I'll also mention that I believe if your team struggles against Latias there is very likely a significant flaw or two already against current threats of the metagame. It checks things, but hardly overwhelmingly... show me a list of stuff it checks and I'll say I appreciate the option, which is kinda the argument for it, but they can potentially bypass it without really going out of their way. Fair dynamic. Similarly, show me pre-Lati teams that struggle with Latias and I'll show you teams that are struggling with other threats.
This isn't some "if you're a false don't entry" bullshit. I don't think DPP should be exclusive to some small group of elites or whatever because that's obviously fucking stupid. What I find clearly abhorrent is wanting to lower the lowest common denominator. The part in bold is especially egregious. I mean... really? These are the people you want to cater to and make things easier for?
They really won't, since Latias hardly changes the meta to some unrecognizable extent; this isn't some Salamence-level monstrosity. Half the teams I've used were not changed a single bit and Lati was barely a particularly notable threat.
Also, people will just steal the newest Latias teams like they already do in the current meta. Not only do teams get passed around like crazy, if people somehow don't get their hands on those teams, they just copy from replays. This really will not affect this dynamic of DPP at all, I promise. This is why it's so weird that people who barely play the game unless they "have" to are so against change... it's not like their method of getting the most up-to-date SPL teams would change at all.
This is just a difference of philosophy. Ojama has made the point many times that "old generation" is a misnomer because that implies some sort of ancient relic. When these gens are still being played nearly year-round at the highest level to the extent that the metagame constantly shifts then it appears clear that they should be subject to evaluation for improvement. "Eh, it's good enough" shouldn't be an argument. These metagames should not have an expiration date for improvement. Of course this doesn't mean we should have monthly suspect tests but when there is a strong enough case then it should be evaluated.
I have, and I've observed the others playing. I didn't struggle with it at all, and I've seen many teams that wouldn't do well against paraspam to begin with (because they are quite flawed)... and that is already a common strategy in the current meta, Latias wouldn't change a thing (reinforcing one of my points here). Others just misplayed to such extents that the only word to describe it for me was violent due to how staggeringly misjudged it was. It was prime example after prime example of "I fucked up with team/play but blame the gen."
I'll also repeat how it's got a fair can-win-can-lose dynamic against those 3 you mentioned. I mean, unless Jirachi's SpDef, none of them particularly like switching into a Specs Surf.
These HW users do exist, that is true. However, they have a much harder time fitting in than others. Scarf Shaymin's awesome, no complaints there, and it doesn't struggle to include HW. However, it is not exactly the most slappable Pokemon out there. Jirachi, on the other hand... does. It struggles already to fit coverage and U-turn and Trick. Cresselia is insanely niche at this role, and this is from a guy whose Cress screens team is pretty much the only existence of it in the past however many years (Asta's super old RMT is the only other one I can remember). While I'm not saying Latias would revolutionize the meta as a premier HW user, the fact is it "needs" its secondary, tertiary and quaternary moves a lot less to do its job, so it could definitely see more consistent use.
Latias checks Zapdos pretty nicely, yes, but I seriously, seriously contend the point that Zapdos is "much worse." Helping handle Jirachi and ganging up on Tyranitar makes it sound like Lati will want to hang out with Zap. As for their standing off, Zapdos can U-turn out, it can Discharge para, it can Toxic, it can even force a Recover with SR + HP Ice, if it's a Specs set and Zap uses Sub then God help you, SpD sets are good and prevent CM + status prevention bullshit with Roar... it's an equal back and forth and the options are plentiful for both sides. Sounds healthy to me.
Scarftar lost its Scarf. Now Gengar, CM Rachi, MixRachi, prio-less MixApe, MixNite, MixGon, CBGyara and what have you can wreak havoc. Don't forget Latias has the option to slam shit too.
This is a good thing. We WANT to be reducing the amount of matchup in the game. What would you prefer, stall teams to be rolls of the dice to be used only when you've scouted your opponent enough to be confident he won't bring xyz?
And again, you are overrating Latias' defensive presence and ignoring that Latias can be just as scary TO stall.
Speaks for itself
To finish, I'd like to talk specifically about Latias' good qualities so this isn't just a "you're wrong you idiots" post: there are so many. An offensively-minded check to Waters, Zapdos, Grasses, Fires, with a Fighting resist and a Ground immune... these are amazing qualities, and yet it's not like it switches in and begins to completely dominate them/the game. You can't use Latias to just massacre the other guy unless 1) he lets you 2) his team is bad 3) you outplay him significantly. In all 3 cases, what happened was deserved. In more concrete examples, it serves to HELP with all the aspects of DPP people love to hate and not work towards solving - preview, hidden mons, trapping, paraspam, the trio of Fighters. Not realizing this is what makes me think that people really don't know what they're talking about at all, they just look at the surface and make their claims off that. Really substantiated stuff. Latias is a way to even variance out so the better player can win. Sure, Latias can be one of many Pokemon on Jirachi's hitlist. It can also be the Pokemon that smacks a cocky Jirachi around and rewards its user with a nice advantage. Think of Infernape as potentially being threatening to stall, but if you use it badly it's going to get the tar kicked out of it. Neither Pokemon is anywhere near overpowered. It's time we gave Latias a fair shot on the biggest stage and I urge you to consider what I have written way too much on when making your vote.
