DP Clefable

[umbarsc]

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/clefable

[SET]
name: Life Orb
move 1: Double-Edge
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Grass Knot
move 4: Softboiled
item: Life Orb
nature: Quiet
ability: Magic Guard
evs: 68 Spe / 216 Atk / 224 SpA

[SET COMMENTS]

<p>Though Clefable is usually defensively-oriented, this set allows Clefable to strike hard right off the bat to break down walls. Double-Edge is Clefable's main form of attack, 2HKOing Clefable, Lanturn, and Hypno. Fire Blast tears through Steelix like a baked potato through snow, dealing a minimum of 91.52% to standard (252 HP / 132 SpD) Steelix. Fire Blast also 2HKOs Venusaur, Weezing, and Rotom (among others), while OHKOing Leafeon and Scyther. Grass Knot will always 2HKO 252 HP / 0 SpD Claydol; OHKO Omastar, Kabutops, and Relicanth; and 2HKO max HP Aggron.</p>

<p>However, what sets this apart from other UU wall breakers such as Sharpedo is its bulk and Softboiled. Most walls switching in will have a lot of trouble breaking past those 331/182/216 defenses, and most UU walls lack a recovery move, so Clefable will be beating most walls even if they predict properly to get in on a non-damaging move. For example, let's look at some calculations against 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Venusaur. Its strongest attack against Clefable, Sludge Bomb, can only muster a maximum of 38.08% damage. Meanwhile, Clefable will be hitting it for 52.74% damage minimum with Fire Blast, and Double-Edge causes 52.19% damage minimum, so Clefable will always be able to stall it out by cycling between Softboiled and Double-Edge or Fire Blast, even if Venusaur comes in on a Grass Knot or Softboiled. Other common walls, such as Steelix, Claydol, and Lanturn will not be able to 2HKO Clefable with their standard movesets and lack recovery, so they too will usually lose to Clefable on the switch-in.</p>

<p>68 Speed EVs are to outspeed minimum Speed Weezing, which can allow Clefable to knock it out with two Fire Blasts without getting burned. 216 Attack EVs ensure that Double-Edge 2HKOs 252 HP / 0 Def Calm Clefable. The rest of the EVs are placed in Special Attack to maximise the damage output from Fire Blast and Grass Knot.</p>

 

[jumpluff]

<p>Though Clefable is usually defensively-oriented, this set allows Clefable to strike hard right off the bat to break down walls. Double-Edge is Clefable's main form of attack, 2HKOing other Clefable, Lanturn, and Hypno. Fire Blast tears through Steelix like a baked potato through snow, dealing a minimum of 91.52% to standard (252 HP / 132 SpD) Steelix. Fire Blast also 2HKOs Venusaur, Venomoth, Glaceon, and max HP Aggron, while OHKOing Leafeon and Scyther. Grass Knot will always 2HKO 252 HP / 0 SpD Claydol.</p>

<p>However, what sets this apart from other UU wall breakers such as Sharpedo are its bulk and Softboiled. Most walls switching in will have a lot of trouble breaking past those 331/182/216 defenses, and most UU walls lack a recovery move, so Clefable will be beating most walls even if they predict properly to get in on a non-damaging move. For example, let's look at some calculations against 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Venusaur. Its strongest attack against Clefable, Sludge Bomb, can only muster a maximum of 38.08% damage. Meanwhile, Clefable will be hitting it for 52.74% damage minimum with Fire Blast, and Double-Edge causes 52.19% damage minimum, so Clefable will always be able to stall it out by cycling between Softboiled and Double-Edge or Fire Blast, even if Venusaur comes in on a Grass Knot or Softboiled. Other common walls, such as Steelix, Claydol, and Lanturn, will not be able to 2HKO Clefable with their standard movesets and lack of recovery, so they too will usually lose to Clefable on the switch-in.</p>

<p>68 Speed EVs are to outspeed minimum Speed Weezing, which can allow Clefable to knock it out with two Fire Blasts (with some prior damage) without getting burned. 216 Attack EVs ensure that Double-Edge 2HKOs 252 HP / 0 Def Calm Clefable. The rest of the EVs are placed in Special Attack to maximise the damage output from Fire Blast and Grass Knot.</p>

The 'are' change is awkward, I know, but it's correct, as reworded it's 'Softboiled and its bulkiness is what sets it apart', which is wrong ><; Maybe rewording it like that [and correcting is to are] might be less awkward, heh.

What I also feel should be mentioned as setting it apart is that Magic Guard stops it from getting Life Orb recoil, as, while it's obvious, it may not be obvious to the reader that that makes a great Life Orb user, seeing as they might think, well, Life Orb reduces its bulkiness anyway.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I would personally forget about Double-Edge and just use Focus Blast in that moveslot, or even Ice Beam. That way, you could either put some more Speed on this set or give it a significant amount of bulk by allocating those Atk EVs elsewhere. You'll still beat Clefables and Lanturns, and you'll gain some coverage against Miltank....but I personally don't think Hypno is too big of a deal in UU anymore so I would scrap Double-Edge altogether for Focus Blast and an EV/nature change.

I just don't know about this set...the Double-Edge version of the set does deal a lot of damage but I think a Special set would be more effective with its bulk or huge Speed advantage.

Also, you might want to mention that you really really want to switch into Toxic Spikes or otherwise be poisoned to prevent harmful status from ruining this set.

 

[jumpluff]

I would personally forget about Double-Edge and just use Focus Blast in that moveslot, or even Ice Beam. That way, you could either put some more Speed on this set or give it a significant amount of bulk by allocating those Atk EVs elsewhere. You'll still beat Clefables and Lanturns, and you'll gain some coverage against Miltank....but I personally don't think Hypno is too big of a deal in UU anymore so I would scrap Double-Edge altogether for Focus Blast and an EV/nature change.

I just don't know about this set...the Double-Edge version of the set does deal a lot of damage but I think a Special set would be more effective with its bulk or huge Speed advantage.

Also, you might want to mention that you really really want to switch into Toxic Spikes or otherwise be poisoned to prevent harmful status from ruining this set.

If one still wanted to run phys. attack for whatever reason, maybe instead of Life Orb, Toxic Orb + Facade, which has 210 BP when factoring in STAB? Although then this begins to resemble the Facade set, heh. Then again, that might lower other 2HKOs or something, I don't know.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Yeah thats really what I was getting at...this just feels like the Facade set except with a couple of special moves added on at the expense of SpAtk EVs. I think this set is outclassed by other Clefable sets lol.

The notion of a mixed sweeper set is neat though, the other Clefable sets really don't have anything like this in the same moveset. It borrows pieces of other sets, both good and bad, for some surprise and power. I guess I like it, but that clefable analysis is huge...it has too good of a movepool :(

Also noting that in the current Clefable analysis, the Belly Drummer set should have Cosmic Power as an option over Meteor Mash. Also, the counters section should be re-written to have a UU flavor, which is where Clefable ended up. Mention things like Aggron, Rotom, Lanturn, Hypno, Grumpig etc as counters instead of Cresselia, Celebi and Blissey (who Clefable will likely never even see).

 

[Caelum]

Also noting that in the current Clefable analysis, the Belly Drummer set should have Cosmic Power as an option over Meteor Mash. Also, the counters section should be re-written to have a UU flavor, which is where Clefable ended up. Mention things like Aggron, Rotom, Lanturn, Hypno, Grumpig etc as counters instead of Cresselia, Celebi and Blissey (who Clefable will likely never even see).

Not really the topic at hand but on a somewhat related note is that Clefable also learns Lucky Chant (prevents critical hits). I've actually used CP+Lucky Chant on one of my gimmick teams (gotta love gimmicks ~_~) and it worked surprisingly well, but that's a whole other discussion. I might do a small Clefable re-write one of these days anyway.

Anyway, I'll go test the set before I make some comments (heh, I actually test almost every set posted in this forum ~_~). Also, what do you mean when you say you 2HKO Weezing with prior damage? Are we talking about you 2HKO with Stealth Rock or what? I could say Blissey can be 2HKO'd by Starmie's Surf with prior damage as well, technically, so please be more specific umb.

 

[umbarsc]

I just reran the calcs, and apparently I ran them wrong the first time because Weezing takes a minimum of 53% from Fire Blast, so I'll edit that in.

Focus Blast sounds like a good idea, but then it would be rather similar to the Choice Specs set. However, the current CB/Specs set could be replaced with Life Orb + Softboiled with three attacks.

 

[User 12783]

Double-Edge is Clefable's main form of attack, 2HKOing Clefable, Lanturn, and Hypno.

That sounds a bit awkward, add 'opposing' between 2HKOing and Clefable.

The 'baked potato through snow' bit, should be omitted, as it doesn't seem professional to use an analogy like that, when you can just be straight to the point and say: "Fire Blast tears through Steelix, dealing a minimum of 91.52% to standard (252 HP / 132 SpD) Steelix."

Fire Blast also 2HKOs Venusaur, Weezing, and Rotom (among others), while OHKOing Leafeon and Scyther. Grass Knot will always 2HKO 252 HP / 0 SpD Claydol; OHKO Omastar, Kabutops, and Relicanth; and 2HKO max HP Aggron.

That should be changed a bit, as and is repeated too many times, the 'and' between Kabutops and Relicanth should be omitted as right afterwards you say 'and' again.

As for the Focus Blast part, I think that should be the primary option and then Double-Edge being a side option so that it is not completely omitted and does not really resemble the Choice Specs set. This also allows them to choose if they want an LO Attacker, or a Mixed Wall-Breaker.

As for the damage calcs against Venusaur, the Double-Edge one is incorrect. Using MetalKid's you get 44.78 minimum, and it is known to overshoot damage.

 

[umbarsc]

I just checked and rechecked the calcs, and I keep getting the same number. There may be a problem in my calculator (I use this one: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25740) though.

Can we just revamp the current Specs set to have Life Orb and Focus Blast? I've tried both, and I generally like Double-Edge more because it's a more easily spammable move than Focus Blast/Fire Blast/Grass Knot are, so it requires less prediction to use and hits a wider range of targets.

 

[User 12783]

Direct post from thread:

Just realized, yours and my one have the same problem. Try it out with your chart, then use an online one, they get different results, however, both results from yours and mine are the same. It must be some problem, but it just won't work with Excel.

 

[gorm]

doesn't everyone use http://ownpurpose.com/damage_calculator_test.php ? i was under the impression that it was "easily the best" =|

 

[umbarsc]

I just plugged the numbers into the ownpurpose calculator and I got the exact same damage for minimum, average, and maximum as I got using ControllerofFlame's calculator.

 

[Aldaron]

Gorm, that ownpurpose calculator is actually a version of the calculator, with some issues (isn't 100% accurate, has some logistic problems)

Unfortunately, I cannot find the final version or get into contact with the creator, so that's pretty much all I have for now.

 

[jumpluff]

Gorm, that ownpurpose calculator is actually a version of the calculator, with some issues (isn't 100% accurate, has some logistic problems)

Unfortunately, I cannot find the final version or get into contact with the creator, so that's pretty much all I have for now.

http://ownpurpose.com/damage_calculator.php

Is that it or is it just like the same thing minus stat calc?

 

[umbarsc]

Just ran it through the final version, exact same number.

 

[umbarsc]

Ok, so I'm thinking of making some changes to the current analysis.

The Specs set should be scrapped for a special Life Orb set with Softboiled, with Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/filler over the current attacking combo.

I really don't see much viability in a purely physical Clefable. Rotom, Weezing, Miltank, and Steelix all wall it rather easily and force it out with Roar or cripple it with Will-O-Wisp (it's too bad Clefable doesn't get Taunt). I suppose a Double-Edge/Flamethrower/Meteor Mash/Focus Punch set isn't terrible, but with such a huge movepool and massive analysis, I don't think borderline gimmick sets should be included.

The Toxic Orb set shouldn't need such a specialized set, I'd rather just throw Toxic Orb on as an option for the support set. Speaking of which, I also don't see why Encore needs a separate set.

 

[Caelum]

I don't see just how because a few things beat a physical clefable that is it non-viable.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Most of those things you listed can't even wall a physical Clefable, especially the Toxic Orb + Facade (the most effective) variants. With STAB Facade, Brick Break, Fire Blast off of a perfectly usable SpAtk, and the elemental Punches, I think a physical set would fare pretty well. I've only used Clefable with one physical move before and it worked out really well, especially when I was trying to hit other Clefable.

Toxic Orb is much more than just a gimmick on Clefable =\

Same with Encore, its a sick move.

 

[umbarsc]

I didn't say they were a gimmicks, or that it should be removed. I said that it doesn't need a separate set from a general supporter set.

 

[umbarsc]

Okay, to draw discussion back to the set at hand, are there any more qualms with it?

 

[jrrrrrrr]

This set in here looks decent, if someone else wants to grammar check it, then add it in I would not object.

I do disagree with you still, Toxic Orb + Facade does deserve its own set (because it stops the 'it can get burned' problem that the physical Clefable has). Encore is an amazing move, but the set that's currently in there could use some work.

Also, the Belly Drum Clefable needs to be looked at. Double-Edge + Meteor Mash is terrible coverage, even at +6. I would personally use Double-Edge + Brick Break/Ice Punch.

 

[umbarsc]

Is this going to be added?

Something that I'm wondering about the set is if Fire Blast/Grass Knot should be replaced with Focus Blast/Shadow Ball. Ghost/Fighting gets far better type coverage in UU (both for neutrality and super-effective hits), and covers most of the same things that Fire/Grass does, but Ghost/Fight has the added advantage of hitting other Clefable and Rotom for super-effective damage, a OHKO with some prior damage, because both can impair you by coming in on a non-effective hit and Burning you (in Rotom's case) or Encoring you and stalling (in Clefable's case).

@jrrrrrrr

If Toxic Orb + Facade gets a separate set, it does need an update. The set should be Facade / Softboiled / Fire Blast / Brick Break/Meteor Mash. Meteor Mash, despite having poor coverage, can be a useful stall breaker because of the attack increases.

It's too bad that Clefable doesn't get Taunt, with such a massive movepool, because I was theorymoning up a Meteor Mash / Taunt / Facade / Softboiled stall-breaker until I realized Clefable couldn't learn Taunt.

 

[twash]

I'll upload later unless anybody else has any problems with it? :)

 

[twash]

uploaded to SCMS