Metagame Doubles UU

n10siT

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REAL tier changes:

Milotic: DUU -> DOU
Mimikyu: DUU -> DOU
Volcarona: DUU -> DOU
Mawile-Mega: DOU -> DUU
Arcanine: DOU -> DUU
Scizor-Mega: DOU -> DUU
Bronzong: DOU -> DUU
Torkoal: DOU -> DUU

We lost a premier set up mon and a great tr setter, while gaining a sun setter, a different great tr setter, two good megas, and a fire type that destroys those two megas and has intimidate. Look for our votes on these pokemon coming soon, and the sign ups for DUU Summer will be posted shortly!
 
REAL tier changes:

Milotic: DUU -> DOU
Mimikyu: DUU -> DOU
Volcarona: DUU -> DOU
Mawile-Mega: DOU -> DUU
Arcanine: DOU -> DUU
Scizor-Mega: DOU -> DUU
Bronzong: DOU -> DUU
Torkoal: DOU -> DUU

We lost a premier set up mon and a great tr setter, while gaining a sun setter, a different great tr setter, two good megas, and a fire type that destroys those two megas and has intimidate. Look for our votes on these pokemon coming soon, and the sign ups for DUU Summer will be posted shortly!
YO FREE ARCANINE

This has been a long time coming, Arc's been trapped in DOU since the gen came out. He's not even gonna be goat in DUU but it's really great to be able to test him out and give him a better playing field to his viability
 
Now that Arcanine is DUU, I decided to come up with a set for it. Thoughts?

Arcanine @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Atk / 4 Def / 12 SpD / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Extreme Speed
- Wild Charge / Snarl / Helping Hand
- Protect

Notes:
  • HP stat is 16n - 1 to take less damage from sand/hail
  • Outspeeds 252+ Speed Breloom and Metagross by one point
  • 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Arcanine: 340-402 (88.7 - 104.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
  • -1 252+ Atk Water Bubble Araquanid Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Arcanine: 324-384 (84.5 - 100.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
  • 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Arcanine: 294-348 (76.7 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (guaranteed berry proc from max HP)
  • -1 96+ Atk Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 180-212 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
 
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Arcticblast

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in advance of the Summer Showdown I will be slowly revealing all of my secrets


Arcanine @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Atk / 24 Def / 148 Spe
Adamant Nature
- HP and Defense will survive a Stomping Tantrum from Adamant CB Metagross
- Attack will 2HKO Azumarill with Wild Charge, if you're into that kind of thing
- 263 Speed will outrun Jolly base 70s (notably Breloom) by a single point
 

n10siT

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Hello! Just in time for the Summer Showdown, here are our votes on our 5 new arrivals. The next update will probably come at the conclusion of the Summer tournament. I have also added a sample team to the samples post, but I am always looking for good teams to put there, so if you have a team you feel is sample worthy please send it to me or post it in this thread.

Arcanine: UR -> ?
  • N10sit: this is barely good enough for tier 2, so many different viable sets and being a particularly strong fire type with intimidate is good. Im with ldm though, this could fall to 3
  • Lord death man: tier 2 i think. I’m kind of torn between tier 2 and 3, its only particularly bad matchup is rain but rain is also good.
  • Talkingtree: 2 solidly, being a great metagross / scizor / tsareena check and offering utility and variety with a wide movepool is plenty to make it useful in every game
  • Demantoid: 2, pretty good defensive typing besides water weakness
  • Marilli: 2-3 is fine, intimidate is a good ability even on a bad pokemon.

Scizor-Mega: UR -> ?
  • N10sit: tier 3 actually, i think this was overrated before and now with arcanine, metagross being dominant, bulkier balance teams being more favored, i think the meta isnt helpful to it. Still, strong priority is very good atm.
  • Lord death man: tier 2. If it wasn’t for rain + arc i would say it’s a clear tier 1, but i’d rather wait on how it does
  • Talkingtree: Sort of on the border between tier 2 and 3, let’s stick with 2 for now
  • Demantoid: 3, still good but steel doesn’t have as good coverage as it did back when scizor was here before
  • Marilli: hmm 3 is fine i think, i think mega scizor was really never too OP as to directly shape the tier around it when it was in DUU last time too, as its main draw is quite meta-dependent, and demantoid is right scizor doesnt have as good a coverage anymore.

Bronzong: UR -> ?
  • N10sit: Tier 3, can viably run both abilities, psychium z, gets stuff like ally switch and stealth rocks, very solid defensive setter
  • Lord death man: wherever musharna is.
  • Talkingtree: One higher than wherever Musharna is :I Skill swap psychium is a fantastic partner for Torkoal since it resets weather and gives Torkoal Levitate, while doing all the things Z-TR Bronzong was already great at.
  • Demantoid: 3 same as musharna. Offers slightly better typing while mush mush has better bulk. Not very much difference in their movepools
  • Marilli: 3 agreed they just all do the same thing and are quite interchangeable.

Mawile-Mega: UR -> ?
  • N10sit: i think tier 4, intimidate is very nice but there is very fierce competition for the mega slot, especially with scizor dropping. I think something like lucario fits better on any team that isnt hard room, so it can be difficult to build around mawile. Its insane power is something to behold though
  • Lord death man: 4, it’s very similar to marowak alola but obviously better but also a mega (and I think alolawak should probably be 5 now).
  • Talkingtree: 4/5, it hits hard but requires significant support and is kind of awkward to fit onto teams. That low HP stat also really lets it down on the bulk side.
  • Demantoid: 4 Worse than Scizor on most teams, but better on TR and Intimidate pre-mega gives it a niche.
  • Marilli: 4 its better than 5 but its pretty good on TR. typing and intimidate is nice but i had a pretty hard time fitting this onto teams as it’s Quite Awkward to fit on teams.

Torkoal: UR -> ?
  • N10sit: tier 5, ldm is spot on. Too one-dimensional for anything higher
  • Lord death man: tier 5, it has a clear niche in trick room and is incredibly difficult to switch in to, but i have difficulty fitting sets for this on teams and without firium z or specs it’s weak and both have obvious downsides.
  • Talkingtree: 4, I’ve been using Torkoal and I actually really like it. Makes the rest of its team a better rain check, has a powerful eruption, good enough coverage with earth power / solar beam so it can take on Arcanine and avoids being setup bait for Azu, solidly physically bulky and takes on Metagross/Scizor too.
  • Demantoid: 5 kind of bad on anything but TR which is kind of mediocre
  • Marilli: i think this mons pretty bad and 1-dimensional, 5 it is


Results:
Arcanine: UR -> Tier 2
Scizor-Mega
: UR -> Tier 3
Bronzong
: UR -> Tier 3
Mawile-Mega
: UR -> Tier 4
Torkoal
: UR -> Tier 5
 

n10siT

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Double Post King at it again

I've created two new DUU resources, an EV spread compendium and DUU Speed tiers. Huge thanks to the very talented Level 51 for the spreadsheet template! Both of these resources will be available in the thread OP. Note that the EV compendium is really just a list of my EV spreads, please PM me on Discord or PS! or post here with fixes to spreads or new spreads for a Pokemon.
 
Here's some VR noms:

Upward Noms

Entei
3 -> 2

I've been using Entei with an Inner Focus/Roar set as of late, to counter the growing use of trick room, due to DUU gaining Torkoal, and Bronzong. I've come to find that it does an outstanding job as a trick room check, and is still very capable of dealing damage, if not handicapping a team with burns. Aside from this, there's always the standard ESpeed set, which just makes Entei have a good variety of sets to choose from, and the opponent is left to determine what they're up against, or find out the hard way.

Mega Gardevoir
3 -> 2

With speed control, and a bulky spread Mega-Gardevoir becomes quite difficult to KO. It can usually 2HKO the majority of what's in front of it with Hyper Voice, and can be quite difficult to stop due to the majority of the meta being special attackers. Gardevoir's base speed of 100 make it quite easy to drop EVs from Spe, and put them into its defensive stats.

Deoxys
5 -> 3/4

I honestly don't know why this was Tier 5 in the first place, as it really does the same thing its counterpart does in DOU. Psychoboost obviously OHKOs the majority of the tier, minus those that naturally resist it.

Hitmontop
4 -> 3

Hitmontop's kit is amazing. Fake out, Feint, Close Combat, Helping Hand, Wide Guard, Quick Guard, and more make Hitmontop extremely difficult to predict, which makes it really easy for Hitmontop to do its job.

Downward Noms

Azumarill
1 -> 2

I've noticed Azumarill being less common, and have even struggled to make it perform as a Tier 1 threat should. With the introduction of Torkoal, it becomes much more difficult for it to be threatening with Aqua Jet due to Drought.
 
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Okay, so sun is amazing and LiliKoal works stupidly well. With the sheer lack of fake out users and the likes of Misty/Electric terrain there's not an awful lot you can do about them when properly supported. I just finished writing a team report that topped the ladder, I had never played DUU prior to two days ago.

Sleep is powerful, perhaps even too powerful in some cases as it allows Mawile, Torkoal, and other slow hard hiting mons the opportunity the opportunity to land their hits. Paired with TR and Chlorophyll After You it also becomes tremendously difficult to maintain control over speed tiers.

Alone each of these things isn't that broken, sleep setters are few and flawed, these hard hitting but lethally slow Pokémon need support, but when combined in such a way they bring out the worst in each other your opponent is left playing a game that almost feels unfair. You make the calls, they have to guess what, any mistake is usually punished severely.

Mawile and Sun are powerful, don't underestimate them. They threaten Metagross and Azumarill the point of them becoming useless. Meanwhile arcanine is feeling similar to VGC 17, a solid Pokémon but relatively simple to play around.
 
Torkoal -> Tier 4
Torkoal is much better than Abomasnow and sun currently provides more utility than rain if you're not arcanine weak. This thing is terrifying under TR and sports impressive bulk, requires a lot of intentional support in team building though. Tier 4 seems fitting as such.
Mega-Mawile -> Tier 3 (not as sure)
Lilligant -> Tier 4

Not as powerful as Ludicolo but still a terrifying support that threatens water types and disrupts.
Nihilego -> Tier 3 or 4
A fast TR setter that severely hurts Arcanine en has fair coverage over most of the metagame.

It's currently 5am so will make more detailed cases tomorrow.
 
Torkoal -> Tier 4

Mega-Mawile -> Tier 3 (not as sure)
Torkoal has no business being Tier 5. It's clearly quite powerful, and has shown that it can be used outside of TR. Conditional or not, saying that it's one-dimensional just doesn't make any sense.

I had very low expectations for Mega Mawile, and I must say that I am impressed by the fact that it is even worse than I expected. Keep it as T4
 

n10siT

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Mega Gardevoir
3 -> 2

With speed control, and a bulky spread Mega-Gardevoir becomes quite difficult to KO. It can usually 2HKO the majority of what's in front of it with Hyper Voice, and can be quite difficult to stop due to the majority of the meta being special attackers. Gardevoir's base speed of 100 make it quite easy to drop EVs from Spe, and put them into its defensive stats.
This nom doesn't say anything about why Garde should be in Tier 3 instead of Tier 2. You just described why it's a good Pokemon without describing what about the metagame has shifted deserving its movement up. If anything, our recent metagame shifts made Gardevoir worse, not better, as we gained two Megas that both switch into and set up on or OHKO Garde and a Steel-typed Trick Room setter that does the same thing.

Deoxys
5 -> 3/4

I honestly don't know why this was Tier 5 in the first place, as it really does the same thing its counterpart does in DOU. Psychoboost obviously OHKOs the majority of the tier, minus those that naturally resist it.
Deoxys does not OHKO the majority of the metagame, that's a gross overestimation of its power. It's tier 5 because that's where it belongs. It's frail, duh, hard to fit on teams, and the abundance of psychic resists in Metagross, Garde, Zong, Scizor, etc, etc makes it difficult to just "blow everything up" at will.

Hitmontop
4 -> 3

Hitmontop's kit is amazing. Fake out, Feint, Close Combat, Helping Hand, Wide Guard, Quick Guard, and more make Hitmontop extremely difficult to predict, which makes it really easy for Hitmontop to do its job.
Hitmontop literally always runs Fake Out/Close Combat/Wide Guard/Feint or Helping Hand. How is that hard to predict? I always know what Hitmontop is doing when I see it on my opponents team, if anything it's a testament to how good Hitmontop is as a bulky Fake Out user/support mon/pivot. It's in tier 4 because of its lack of offensive presence AND its predictability. It doesn't take a Kaori level player to protect on a Fake Out.

Azumarill
1 -> 2

I've noticed Azumarill being less common, and have even struggled to make it perform as a Tier 1 threat should. With the introduction of Torkoal, it becomes much more difficult for it to be threatening with Aqua Jet due to Drought.
Torkoal, while I will admit is probably better than Tier 5, is not good enough to single handedly drop Azumarill (which has been the best pokemon in this format since its Gen 7 inception, only to be challenged recently by Metagross). Azumarill is not 100% reliant on Aqua Jet to damage things, although that's obviously the move that makes it exceptional. It's generally always paired with a redirector, and having the priority to weaken Torkoal Eruption + heavily damage it's Trick Room partners, makes any TR player fret about their gameplan while facing down an Azumarill.

AbsurdityNL

Maybe I'm misreading the tone of your post, but I think declaring Torkoal + Lilligant "broken", or even problematic, after admitting you have 2 days of Doubles UU experience (and I can only assume that experience is on our notoriously difficult ladder) is jumping the gun by quite a bit. Ignoring the fact that Politoed + Ludicolo dunks on that combination, a lot of doubles players, especially in our tournament setting, have been playing versus LilliKoal on DOU and DUU's low ladders for a good part of 18 months now, so they've got a handle on playing against it. I don't mean to bad talk the combination, or say it's unviable - as it certainly is viable - but I would just urge caution before making declarations about the state of a metagame before having more experience.

The above is a point I really want to stress to everyone - the ladder metagame and our tournament metagames for DUU are vastly different. I try not to even test tournament teams on the ladder, because I'll just lose to Masquerain or something and scrap it. I would encourage everyone to try to form a more developed opinion on DUU - and only a fraction of what you can learn comes from me and this thread. Guys like Demantoid, Lord Death Man, Memoric, AuraRayquaza, and I could go on, have done the metagame so much good by developing the tournament metagame and finding new ways to win and push the boundaries. Winning on the ladder has never been a good measure of DUU success, and I would urge everyone to look to the circuit and other DUU tournaments to make judgments of the metagame. Sorry if this post comes off as condescending or know-it-all-ish, I did not intend it to be.

Oh, also please provide an explanation when making VR nominations. Just saying "x mon should be in tier y" doesn't help anybody understand why you feel that is the case.
 
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I'd like to nominate Froslass to tier 5. It's pretty frail and in combination with its awkward speed tier it gets outspeed/speedtied and OHKOed by a lot of stuff in the tier, like Gengar, Scizor, Salazzle. But it makes up for that with its amazing supportive movepool. Taunt, Trick, Will-O Wisp, Icy Wind, Destiny Bond, I could go on and on. But this Pokemon's main niche is on hail teams, as it has access to a pretty fast Aurora Veil. Leading with a hail setter and Froslass can sometimes guarantee a veil, especially with the prominence of Trick Room teams. It can even hit fairly hard and function as redirection with Ghostium Z. It has a lot of things going for it, enough for my nomination, but I'd say its only tier 5 max just because of the amount of things that can kill it before it gets to move and hail isn't an extremely viable archetype. I'd even be ok with this getting ignored because of how niche hail is anyway. But if you do decide to build a hail team, I highly recommend this Pokemon.
 

Lord Death Man

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I'm going to echo Social's Deoxys 5 > 4 nomination, I've found it consistently good at what it does, which is forcing trades. Sash, LO, and Psychium are all decent and have fairly limited checks - Gardevoir, Metagross, and Muk-Alola being the main few that I can think of. I still think Pheromosa is a little better on its own merits, but I've reached for Deoxys more often while teambuilding because of how well it pairs with mons like Scizor-Mega and Ludicolo, and how much easier it is to trade with Deoxys and then throw it away.

Marowak-Alola 4 > 5. Awkward, doesn't do anything particularly special.

Keldeo 3 > 5. This stands out as the worst thing in 3. It doesn't have the power or speed to be worth using regularly in a meta where it's slower than Naganadel and Shaymin-Sky, lacks the power to ohko Metagross unassisted, and lacks the coverage to handle notable threats like Venusaur-Mega. It often has to rely on an 80% accurate move when aiming for 2hkos, which wouldn't be an issue if it was faster or more threatening or had better neutral coverage.

Clefable 2 > 3. I think this is a worse redirector than Togekiss outside of beating Azumarill. Worse matchups versus top threats like Rain, Shaymin-Sky, and pretty much any special attacker that isn't electric is unfortunate, and it often ends up inviting Metagross in.

and some stuff that should be ranked

Blastoise UR > 5. I think I've seen this redirector more than any other so far in the summer showdown, and its also been doing pretty well. I think this has just been going under the radar for a while, it has a pretty good support movepool, good bulk, and people just aren't making teams with a water-type redirector in mind so it also has that going for it. It doesn't seem like it would have good matchups, but still manages to put in work.

Blaziken-Mega UR > 5. Kind of an awkward mega to build with, but it has a lot of good qualities and has seen a few wins. Faster than modest Ludicolo in Rain, 160 attack with 2 120 BP stabs that have excellent neutral coverage - only really missing out on Azumarill and the frail Naganadel. Arcanine being around can hurt it, but Arcanine's only real option vs it is to roar.
 

n10siT

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With the conclusion of DUU Summer, we'll be making some VR changes, and I'll use this post to talk a bit about how the tournament affected the DUU metagame. But first, some of my own VR nominations! I won't re-do any of the noms above, but you may be able to tell through my noms what I do and don't agree with.

Arcanine: Tier 2 -> Tier 3: I'm kind of going to echo some of the sentiments from Social's Entei nom. I don't think the two Pokemon are different enough to rank one higher than the other, and I am no longer convinced Arcanine is strictly better than Entei. However, instead of bring Entei up to 2, I think tier 3 fits both of these Pokemon better.

Politoed: Tier 2 -> Tier 1: I think Politoed is really good right now. I think the support it offers teams in the face of the very popular Bronzong Torkoal archetypes can not be overstated. Toed fits on a wide variety of teams that are not just hard rain, and I think it's varied viable sets and support options just make it a very good pick right now.

Thundurus-I: Tier 2 -> Tier 1: Similarly to Politoed, Thundurus fits on damn near every team archetype and provides unparalleled support. This switches in to a lot of stuff, and I think is one of the most fear inducing mons at team preview and in the team builder. Thundurus does a lot for a lot of different teams and can fill a lot of roles on its own. I wouldn't be surprised if Toed to 1 was a no, but I would be surprised to see Thund stay in two.

Shaymin-Sky: Tier 2 -> Tier 3: Simply put, I think this Pokemon is outclassed. I have a tough time finding it necessary to use its role compression, and the shift we're seeing in the metagame from more set up oriented to just offense playstyles is putting a lot of pressure on Skymin to do Skymin things but I think it really struggles to do that atm.

Bronzong: Tier 3 -> Tier 2: Bronzong proved itself to be the best TR setter in the format this tournament. Provides unrivaled support in Rocks/Hypnosis/Skill Swap/Ally Switch and is bulky enough to stand up to a lot of what the format has to offer.

Mamoswine: Tier 5 -> UR: Doesn't have the stats to fulfill the role it is supposed to. Outclassed in almost every way by Krook/Lando/Chomp. Just unusable.

Omastar: Tier 5 -> UR: Unmon, was theoried too much in the first place, no results saying it deserves a VR spot.

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DUU Summer saw a fairly welcome and predictable metagame shift. We saw considerably lower usage (and worse results) of Azumarill than in past tournaments, and I think its safe to say people are relying more on solid offense teams than set up archetypes to get wins. Hard trick room style cores of Bronzong/Torkoal/Mawile/Tsareena saw lots of success in the early rounds, while offensive cores of Metagross/Thundurus-I/Naganadel proved to be more successful in the later rounds. We saw some teams that pushed the boundaries, and some teams that used what we know is good - a healthy mix, IMO. I'm excited for DUU Fall and we should have this thread updated shortly. Also, please post your teams from DUU summer itc! I know we all would love to see what cool stuff you used!
 
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Ok I'll take the time to post some of my favourite teams here and I have a couple of vr noms of my own. I didn't join the last tour but I enjoyed this one a lot more than I thought I would, given that Kommo-o is DOU now.

1)
https://pokepast.es/da8e946a9e4a1ff0
2)
https://pokepast.es/25757deb757d1dce
3)
https://pokepast.es/c65d2be897beaa38

So basically right at the start of the tour I was convinced specs Torkoal + Tsareena hard TR was one of the best teams, just because Tsareena really locks down the opponents field with feint + queenly majesty to allow Torkoal to spam eruption freely. I spent a lot of time trying to find the next 4 that would be able to shut down every way the opponent had of stopping the TR set, and used all 3 in the first two rounds going 4-0. But ultimately, I every team lacked something and so I dropped the idea for the later rounds, not wanting to get matchupped. You might also notice that I had 2/3 z moves per team, which might seem odd. But this wasn't really a pain, as every z move served a purpose, and you only click the z move you need.
1) The Zong set was there for the sole purpose of aiding Torkoal, since I didnt expect to ever be throwing out attacks with it. I never really needed anything other than the untauntable TR, but having the support there was nice if the situation arose. Double feint was very nice just to guarantee eruption hits, and notably breaks wide guard for both opposing mons when you use it. Gardevoir outspeeds Breloom so I dont get spored to death with feint + hyper voice. Raptor just sounded nice for intimidate + gambit kos, much like Victini in DOU.

2) Chandelure + Smeargle was a different take, focused on getting smeargle to eat all the hits and get torkoal in t2 theoretically. Chand was a fake out immune which meant i could lead Chandelure + Smeargle and just follow me tr. Its also strong in sun if the situation allows.

3) I learnt quite quickly that Zong was pretty deadweight, and turned to Reuniclus for its spore immunity and just generally greater offensive presence if you can afford to. I still wanted a steel so I gave up Hariyama for Mawile, as I had fake out and feint elsewhere. Rockium Nihilego was a patch to the fake out + roar Entei matchup, which was one I struggled with using the other 2 teams. This meant I ended up with 3 z moves, but you rarely actually want to click more than one. If the opp has fake out and roar they probably don't have taunt, and vice versa. Its also the case that one good tr set can just end the game since eruption is taking at least 3 kos next to Tsareena.


https://pokepast.es/67525c5471636cb2

Probably my favourite DUU team and a team that I think could be one of the strongest in this meta. The initial idea was to have sd u-turn Mega Scizor bring in the big fires (Entei and Arcanine) which is a free dd for Gyarados after a u-turn, but still be able to sweep on its own with bullet punch. Flyinium Gyara just looked like it hit a whole lot for strong damage. Raichu + Entei aided this engine with more pivoting, fake out + lrod for Gyarados, and roar as a very strong anti-TR tech. Tsareena + Naganadel were added on the end as Azu/rain checks and adds some nice speed control to the team.

The rest of these teams were used to varying success in the tour, but I don't think really warrant descriptions.

https://pokepast.es/fefd3c15cf56db0c
https://pokepast.es/578ec45bb2bf2968
https://pokepast.es/f04ec6679c0780cd

On the subject of vr noms:

Mega Scizor -> Tier 2
This mon was hugely underrated during the initial vr shift. It still has the ability to win games on its own just because its so fat and has strong BPs. Its one of the best megas in DUU atm, alongside Gardevoir (I'd argue even slightly better). Its also one of only a couple of solid steel types around, with metagross and possibly MMaw/Bisharp. Definitely better than tier 3 might suggest.

Mega Venusaur -> Tier 3/4
Ngl this mon really sucks. It just doesnt do enough damage or sit around long enough to be worth using in what is a much faster offensive meta. It also can't block priority or break protect, or even flinch mons every turn. It just loses to too much and doesn't offer anywhere near enough in return.

Raichu -> Tier 5
Nice support movepool, shuts down Thundurus-I hard and has a very fast fake out, getting above stuff like smeargle and quick guard keld. Can at times be outclassed by Thundurus itself but rarely finds itself to be deadweight and deserves a place on the vr.

Tsareena -> Tier 1
Tsareena has been a great mon for each of the past 3 tours and I've always been a huge fan, but now I believe its easily top 3 in this meta. The ability to shut down Thundurus and all forms of priority while having feint to ease up a lot of plays are just incredible for most teams. Decent typing too being a nice rain check. It makes azu not nearly as threatening which frees up a lot of space on teams to deal with other stuff well. Amazing mon.

Naganadel -> Tier 1
Another mon I really highly rate. Super fast tailwinds along with strong sludge bombs to hit a large part of the meta for good damage mean it can find loads of chances to start snowballing, a speed boost lets it get over ludicolo/skymin while a spatk boost can get through togekiss and fires with ease, and I've liked both a lot in the games I played in the tour with it. One of the most dangerous offensive threats around and one I think deserves to be in t1.
 
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n10siT

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We have some big news! Our wonderful community leader talkingtree has stepped down from our VR council amid his ever busying schedule. In his place, please welcome AuraRayquaza to our VR council. The current DUU circuit points leader, Aura has proved to have valuable insight and experience in DUU. We have completed another round of VR votes, and this was a very big list with some super interesting changes.

Entei Tier 3 -> Tier 2:
  • N10sit: see my arc down nom, i think both are t3
  • AuraRayquaza: Abstain. I can understand why it might not be tier 2 but its my go-to fire for most duu team because it makes life hard for tr and sacred fire is good.
  • Marilli: nah lol
  • Lord death man: no
  • Demantoid: No. Generally worse than Arcanine which should probably move down too. Fire is pretty bad defensive typing in this meta.

Mega Gardevoir Tier 3 -> Tier 2:
  • N10sit: i cant justify this, naganadel/metagross/fire stuff is just too good atm. One of the better mons in 3 though
  • AuraRayquaza: Yeah what demantoid said. A top 2 mega rn and it doesnt need to stick around for the whole game, just get off 2 or 3 hyper voices to make the rest of the teams job easier.
  • Marilli: ya gardes good, bad defensive mus but those resists still take boatloads and helps team
  • Lord death man: no.
  • Demantoid: Yes. Garde is probably one of the best megas in duu right now. Hyper Voice still chunks resists and bulky mons allowing teammates to clean more easily.

Deoxys Tier 5 -> Tier 4 or 3:
  • N10sit: I’m on board with tier 4, gets okay coverage for where the meta is at and psycho boost is still bananas strong
  • AuraRayquaza: No this mon just too weak for what youre sacrificing in that slot. Has a niche on rain for being able to aid the ho nature of it but ive never seen it work otherwise.
  • Marilli: 4 is good
  • Lord death man: 4 i think i nommed this.
  • Demishtoid: 4. Very strong attacks with good with high speed. Bulk also isn’t that bad

Hitmontop Tier 4 -> Tier 3:
  • N10sit: i dont think so, i dont think the support it provides is THAT good, i think t4 is the right spot for it
  • AuraRayquaza: no this got worse when the meta became less setup heavy, since its support set just isnt useful enough to get over its many drawbacks
  • Marilli: yikes no this doesnt do enough on its own to justify this.
  • Lord death man: no, i think it’s unique among support mons but it doesn’t get used much because it can become a liability very quickly
  • Demantoid: No. 50 HP stat really hurts hit and it doesn’t hit very hard.

Azumarill Tier 1 -> Tier 2:
  • N10sit: unfortunately yes, metagame has shifted and players have adapted to where this is not the metagame defining threat. Its certainly still quite good and can snowball teams even decently prepared for it, but its not so good anymore that it belongs in tier 1
  • AuraRayquaza: yeah you need to prep for it a fair bit still but its not dominating teams like it was
  • Marilli: fine
  • Lord death man: yeah
  • Demantoid: okay, rain made water resists and checks more important

Torkoal Tier 5 -> Tier 4:
  • N10sit: yep, definitely proved it belongs in four. Really really good on tr and has a niche in lillikoal stuff
  • AuraRayquaza: 100% agree
  • Marilli: fine cant argue with wins
  • Lord death man: yes
  • Demantoid: yes, turtle

Mega Mawile Tier 4 -> Tier 3:
  • N10sit: im actually behind this nom, i love mega mawile right now and i think it can do a lot for any semi or hard tr team.
  • AuraRayquaza: yeah i like maw on hard tr teams, but in a lot of other cases i would use scizor over it. Tier 3 seems alright
  • Marilli: 3 is ok, good mon
  • Lord death man: sure
  • Demantoid: Yes. One of the only decent steel types in the tier and hits really hard without needing to boost.

Lilligant UR -> Tier 4:
  • N10sit: no way to tier 4, reluctant yes to tier 5. Lillikoal dookies on unprepared teams but most teams are prepared
  • AuraRayquaza: tier 5, if you dont have a gameplan it will rip you but if you do itll do absolutely nothing
  • Marilli: 5 is fine sure
  • Lord death man: ur i think, there’s other usable stuff that’s ur, usable, but incredibly niche and this is the definition of usable but incredibly niche
  • Demantoid: 5 I guess. Can be decent against unprepared teams.

Nihilego Tier 5 -> Tier 4 or 3:
  • N10sit: 5 is where it belongs, we’ve discussed this in the past and recent meta changes have only made this mon worse.
  • AuraRayquaza: 5. I would only use this over naganadel when i specifically need to get rid of entei/arc, but then there are loads of simply better mons that do it too
  • Marilli: 5
  • Lord death man: 5
  • Demantoid: 5

Frosslass UR -> Tier 5:
  • N10sit: no
  • AuraRayquaza: who?
  • Marilli: ?????
  • Lord death man: no
  • Demantoid: sobad

Marowak-Alola Tier 4 -> Tier 5:
  • N10sit: i really like wak, i think it stays in four. A super solid phys attacker that can run coverage like t punch or ground move and it switches into metagross and torkoal
  • AuraRayquaza: 5, a bad fire in a tier with a number of good fires.
  • Marilli: 5. Bad mon. u think its typing lets u beat something, then u realize it doesn’t. And theres better fires around, even in tr.
  • Lord death man: 5 i like it but its awful
  • Demantoid: yes, can’t reliably switch into very many things

Keldeo Tier 3 -> Tier 5:
  • N10sit: im almost tempted to vote unranked, but keldeo is probably better than that. Still though, this thing is impossible to build with. Actually i talked myself into it, ur this
  • AuraRayquaza: ur this mon sucks
  • Marilli: this is baaad. Arguably ur. Seems like it could be ok in 5 but its honestly just theorymon….
  • Lord death man: ugh ur. It’s had a lot of time to reveal a good set no one knows about and it hasn’t.
  • Demantoid: 5, not elite water material

Clefable Tier 2 -> Tier 3:
  • N10sit: yep, ldm hit it on the nose
  • AuraRayquaza: yeah
  • Marilli: sobad
  • Lord death man: yeah
  • Demantoid: yes

Blastoise UR -> Tier 5:
  • N10sit: yes, at one point i thought this was even good enough for four, but five is a good spot for it atm. Does a lot of good things as a fat water
  • AuraRayquaza: from what ive seen it looked p good
  • Marilli: yes this is good
  • Lord death man: yes
  • Demantoid: yes, turtle

Blaziken-Mega UR -> Tier 5:
  • N10sit: sure what the hell, its viable and got some wins in duu tour
  • AuraRayquaza: yeah its not too hard to support and after one boost can really deal damage
  • Marilli: chicken is delicious
  • Lord death man: yes
  • Demantoid: yes, chicken sogood

Arcanine Tier 2 -> Tier 3:
  • N10sit: my nom
  • AuraRayquaza: yeah this is worse than entei
  • Marilli: arcanine is an awful mon….
  • Lord death man: yes
  • Demantoid: yes, fire is pretty bad defensive typing and intimidate isn’t as useful in duu

Politoed Tier 2 -> Tier 1:
  • N10sit: my nom
  • AuraRayquaza: idt rain is good enough for toed to be tier 1, and outside of that theres no reason to use it
  • Marilli: uh dunno abstain
  • Lord death man: i don’t think it’s 1
  • Demantoid: Yes, rain helps elite waters become even stronger

Thundurus-I Tier 2 -> Tier 1:
  • N10sit: my nom
  • AuraRayquaza: for sure, incredible mon
  • Marilli: yes
  • Lord death man: yes
  • Demantoid: yes

Shaymin-Sky Tier 2 -> Tier 3:
  • N10sit: my nom
  • AuraRayquaza: yeah i do actually like it but its definitely not tier 2
  • Marilli: abstain
  • Lord death man: abstain
  • Demantoid: yes, it’s fast but its flinches are unreliable as well as seed flare hitting :I

Bronzong Tier 3 -> Tier 2:
  • N10sit: my nom
  • AuraRayquaza: no i dont like zong much over other tr setters like reuniclus. Hypnosis is nice but honestly ive found it to be a bit too much of a momentum suck once you set tr. Tier 3 is good
  • Marilli: no
  • Lord death man: no, i think it’s good but it is a massive momentum suck
  • Demantoid: no

Mamoswine Tier 5 -> Tier UR:
  • N10sit: my nom
  • AuraRayquaza: yes i havent seen this at all
  • Marilli: unmon
  • Lord death man: yes
  • Demantoid: yes, dewgong is the superior ice-type

Omastar Tier 5 -> UR:
  • N10sit: my nom
  • AuraRayquaza: yes
  • Marilli: unmon
  • Lord death man: fine.
  • Demantoid: yes, not elite water material

Mega Scizor Tier 3 -> Tier 2:
  • N10sit: mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm are we sure? Is there a 2.5?? This would easily be the worst mon in 2 imo but it’s one of the best mons in 3…. abstain hehe sorry
  • AuraRayquaza: my nom
  • Marilli: abstain
  • Lord death man: yes.
  • Demantoid: yes it’s fat and has pretty good typing that allows it to set up most games

Mega Venusaur Tier 2 -> Tier 3 or 4:
  • N10sit: I’m fine with 3, meta getting worse for it and while it does great vs rain and tsar and azu dominance of metagross and friends or Torkoal zong really not helping it
  • AuraRayquaza: my mon
  • Marilli: 3. Probably too good for 4.
  • Lord death man: 3, a lot of stuff it beats is bad now
  • Demantoid: 3 it has big flower

Raichu UR -> Tier 5:
  • N10sit: yeah this is viable, hot thund check and has a lot of neat options
  • AuraRayquaza: my nom
  • Marilli: it’s ok...
  • Lord death man: yeah it’s okay
  • Demantoid: sure, ladder thinks it’s at least 2 probably

Tsareena Tier 2 -> Tier 1:
  • N10sit: no, this is probably 1.5 if that existed but i don’t feel like tsareena is on the same level as thund and metagross in terms of how much they bring to a team
  • AuraRayquaza: my nom
  • Marilli: no i really don’t think this pokemon is that good. It’s unique but it’s also really overrated
  • Lord death man: i think it’s amazing and meta defining but i don’t think it’s quite tier 1.
  • Demantoid: yes I find it extremely difficult to build teams without it since it helps check so much

Naganadel Tier 2 -> Tier 1:
  • N10sit: man all of these tier two movement votes are very difficult. I really like naganadel but a lot of times it can feel a bit underwhelming… I’m on the fence too with this but I’m okay with one
  • AuraRayquaza: my nom
  • Marilli: abstain
  • Lord death man: yes I think. On the fence but it’s really good.
  • Demantoid: sure, hits hard on basically everything


Results:

Gardevoir-Mega: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Deoxys-N: Tier 5 -> Tier 4
Azumarill: Tier 1 -> Tier 2
Torkoal: Tier 5 -> Tier 4
Mawile-Mega: Tier 4 -> Tier 3
Lilligant: UR -> Tier 5
Marowak-Alola: Tier 4 -> Tier 5
Keldeo: Tier 3 -> UR (owned lol)
Clefable: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Blastoise: UR -> Tier 5
Blaziken-Mega: UR -> Tier 5
Arcanine: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Thundurus-I: Tier 2 -> Tier 1
Shaymin-Sky: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Mamoswine: Tier 5 -> UR
Omastar: Tier 5 -> UR
Scizor-Mega: Tier 3 -> Tier 2
Venusaur-Mega: Tier 2 -> Tier 3
Raichu: UR -> Tier 5
Naganadel: Tier 2 -> Tier 1
 
Hey I just topped the ladder with these guys. I used them the whole time with a record of 53-4 so if you need a team to climb with this would be a consistent one :)

Scizor-Mega @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Atk / 68 SpD / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Protect

Arcanine @ Mago Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 116 Atk / 24 Def / 24 SpD / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge
- Roar
- Protect

Krookodile @ Groundium Z
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 HP / 44 Atk / 4 Def / 120 SpD / 88 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Stealth Rock
- Protect

Thundurus (M) @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 28 SpA / 56 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

Ludicolo @ Assault Vest
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 HP / 28 Def / 20 SpA / 24 SpD / 184 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Scald
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam

Latios @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Tailwind
- Protect

also proof i guess...
Screen Shot 2018-09-18 at 9.06.57 PM.pngScreen Shot 2018-09-18 at 9.06.49 PM.png

  • Mega Scizor out speeds Adamant Azumarill, and will always OHKO 4HP Naganadel with +2 Bullet Punch. Max HP + Spdef dump. I got the set from an Aurarayquaza team and he was right about Uturn > Bug Bite
  • Arcanine takes a LO Draco Meteor from Timid Latios or a Stomping Tantrum from Adamant CB Metagross. It outspeeds Smeargle, rest is Atk dump.
  • Krookodile takes a LO Draco Meteor from Timid Naganadel + SR or an Ice Punch from Adamant CB Metagross. It outspeeds the +speed base 70s by 2. I never clicked the third move so you can use Taunt, Roar, Dragon Tail, Rock Slide, w/e
  • Thund is the sample but with wiki berry instead of sitrus https://pastebin.com/kHX06T0y rain dance would be pretty good on this team, but I just couldn't drop the other moves
  • Ludicolo outspeeds Pheromosa in Tailwind, takes 2 airslash from timid Skymin, always OHKOs lando I with Ice Beam, rest in Def
  • latios is max max, Life Orb gets some notable OHKOs over Soul Dew but I can't remember them off the top of my head sry
    Edit: also, psyshock > psychic because I figured the fat fights like hitmontop and hariyama might be likely to run assault vest
 
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n10siT

Hoopa can do anything!
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since we're getting a shift soon (early october) i thought i'd post the team i used to get my current ladder peak and a houndoom one since Kyle and I have been raving about the big doom

duuladderpeak.png




I think webs offense is stupid good right now and Blacephalon is one of the more underrated Pokemon in the format, especially when it has the support of tsar/thund/webs. It functions extremely well both as a "you're not setting tr this turn" lead and as a late game cleaner, and ghost fire is nearly perfect neutral coverage. Garde also benefits a lot from webs, and thund/metagross/tsar are all just broken lol. Through playing with this team I've only run into a few bad matchups and I think its easy and fun to pilot.

Blacephalon @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Heat Wave
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect

Tsareena @ Assault Vest
Ability: Queenly Majesty
EVs: 224 HP / 108 Atk / 4 Def / 92 SpD / 80 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Power Whip
- Knock Off
- U-turn
- Feint

Gardevoir-Mega @ Gardevoirite
Ability: Trace
EVs: 252 HP / 128 Def / 92 SpA / 20 SpD / 16 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Voice
- Psyshock
- Shadow Ball
- Protect

Araquanid @ Figy Berry
Ability: Water Bubble
EVs: 248 HP / 160 Atk / 28 SpD / 72 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Liquidation
- Bug Bite
- Sticky Web
- Protect

Thundurus @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 28 SpA / 56 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

Metagross @ Choice Band
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Zen Headbutt
- Bullet Punch
- Stomping Tantrum


This is another team I used to some success, but mostly on ladder. I've found it has too many 30/70 matchups for my liking but it can absolutely steamroll a lot of teams.

Torkoal @ Charcoal
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Eruption
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Protect

Lilligant @ Grassium Z
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leaf Storm
- Sleep Powder
- After You
- Protect

Houndoom-Mega @ Houndoominite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Dark Pulse
- Overheat
- Protect

Thundurus @ Wiki Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 28 SpA / 56 SpD / 20 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

Bronzong @ Figy Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Trick Room
- Stealth Rock
- Ally Switch

Buzzwole @ Assault Vest
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Atk / 124 SpD / 28 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Leech Life
- Poison Jab
- Stomping Tantrum
 

n10siT

Hoopa can do anything!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Tier shift changes:

Mega Manectric DOU -> DUU
Weavile DOU -> DUU
Gothitelle DOU -> DUU
Bronzong DUU -> DOU
Politoed DUU -> DOU (rip)
Torkoal DUU -> DOU
Arcanine DUU -> DOU

We gained two incredible support options in Mane + Goth while losing a good TR setter + TR sweeper. We also lost Politoed, so no more rain teams! Arcanine is gone as well, leaving Entei as probably the sole best fire. Look to see more set-up oriented balance teams, as they will benefit greatly from having Manectric and Goth in the tier.

I removed all now defunct samples, as well as made the necessary changes to the VR. I also took the liberty of dropping Ludicolo from the VR, as without Politoed there is really no way to use it. We will vote on our newcomers shortly, and hopefully I'll be able to conjure up a sample team or two.
 

n10siT

Hoopa can do anything!
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Some more VR council news - the great marilli has stepped down. Big thanks to him for all of his help. I plan on appointing his successor after DUU Fall. That said, we have finished our votes on the 3 new drops. Very excited for DUU fall to start!

Mega Manectric UR -> Tier ?
  • N10sit: 1, this pokemon + goth changes the dynamic of duu considerably. I think we’re gonna see a wild metagame change and it may take some time to stabalize, so things may end up in different spots later on. But for now, mane is a top tier offensive support mon, easily the most usable intimidate/pivot - i had originally voted two and after playing with mane i think its tier 1. It’s just absolutely incredible, virtually the fastest thing in the tier, freely able to pivot, strong overheat, snarl is insane or it can hp ice its checks of chomp/lando.
  • Demantoid: 2 - very good support mega. It outspeeds basically everything unboosted
  • Lord death man: tier 2 its fast and enables stuff and is annoying
  • AuraRayquaza: Tier 2 - mane is at the very least on the same level as gardevoir and scizor and it pressures a lot of good stuff in duu

Weavile UR -> Tier ?
  • N10sit: 5, dark/ice is really good and it serves as a soft check to a lot of things, i can see aura’s point about it having difficulty finding its way onto teams but i think its too powerful to not rank
  • Demantoid: 5 It’s a fast fake out user; it should be able to do something
  • Lord death man: like 5 it’s a fast fake out user with an interesting stab combination but it’s also frail and misses the KO on vital mons without a LO.
  • AuraRayquaza: UR (if i can) - i'm struggling to see its place in the meta, sure its fast and can knock goth but like, i don't see what kind of team you’d be putting this on

Gothitelle UR -> Tier ?
  • N10sit: i think this is two, i think introducing trapping to the meta will influence team comps a lot, and i think goth will be at the top of peoples teambuilding concerns, along with gross/thund/naga/tsar/azu
  • Demantoid: 3, I think this could definitely rise in the future. Great partner for Mawile and Manectric.
  • Lord death man: tier 2 this thing is incredible at enabling specific partners, as seen by the last time we had it, and there’s no reason it should have changed imo but it lost its best partner
  • AuraRayquaza: tier 3 - i'd be interested to see how this works without kommo-o, we see in dou that goth works best with really strong setup mons, but without kommo-o and azu being not great i wonder if this'll be as good as it was


Results:
Mega Manectric: UR -> Tier 2
Weavile: UR -> Tier 5
Gothitelle: UR -> Tier 3
 

Platinum God n1n1

the real n1n1
is a Tiering Contributor
Tsareena --> Tier 1
Description on Tier 1 mons fits Tsareena perfectly. Not gonna bother explaining why I'm noming it up sense we all know what it does and why its good. Probably the most splash-able mon, great utility and power.


Delphox --> Tier 5
A trickroom setter that has a favorable matchup versus steel types. With Z-trickroom it takes advantage of Hypnosis and Fireblast becomes 100% accuracy. Currently is 4-0 in Fall seasonals

Gothitelle --> Tier 2
becoming one of the most popular mons due to its ability and support moves. lets you position yourself into favorable match ups better than anyone. This is the #1 support mon right now

Togekiss --> Tier 3
has a lot of bad match ups and is not so strong. but unlike Goth its typing adds more weaknesses and doesnt offer as good support.

Gastrodon --> Tier 3
Good match ups against the top tier mons. Go behind a sub and live forever
 
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