Doubles UU

I've been using a team for a long time and I've been considering to post it here since I feel really comfortable with it and I think it handles TR rather nicely, as well as pretty much every playstyle. However, it's not a Mega Camerupt or Mega Blastoise team, so if you only want teams built around those megas I won't post my team (writing the post would be a waste of time). However, if you're open-minded about it and you'll consider to include teams without Mega Camel or Megastoise, I'll happily post it. Please tell me so that I know if I should post it or not
 
Yeah n10siT just told me to post it so I'll start writing. I'll start writing but I don't have much time so I don't know when it will be finished

EDIT: n10siT has just announced a duu tour so I'll post the team after the tour
 
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Rotom-Mow (UR --> 4 -->3)

This mon actually has a good niche (imao). Besides a being a check to Rage Powder and Sleep Powder, it does enormous amounts of damage to bulky Water types, Diancie, etc. It's not really held back by its usage of Leaf Storm thanks to Volt Switch, chipping any damage that is left if the targetted mon actually manages to survive it. Other things as opposed to Roserade is that it gets no damage from Ground type moves and actually makes Flying types (ex. Crobat & Tornadus) think twice before attacking it. Sometimes, using Will-o-Wisp or T-Wave to check Bronzong, Metagross, Lopunny, Lucario, Aerodactyle (most Megas) are cool too.
 
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Idyll

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DUU's been really fun to play in my experience with it, it's a good change of scenery from DOU and gives a different pace. One thing I noticed though is that you guys value Trick Room way too much, like yeah I get that it's good but Full TR teams aren't as great as people generally think them to be in this metagame. It's probably going to set TR at least once in a game, that's almost inevitable, but some people kind of treat it is the be-all-end-all, invalidating some pokemon while glorifying others. This shouldn't really be the case tbh, Full TR Trick Room is a playstyle that has numerous inherent issues stemming from its slow, condition-dependent nature which can be easily exploited. Stopping it from getting up initially should be manageable for a good number of teams, and most teams should be able to match-up handily even in the cases that it does go up (it happens once, at least), just a matter of minimizing losses and sucking it up. The metagame, with a good number of the "top" mons middling Speed, is also a bit more bulk-centric, the highest dense Speed tier being 100, so there's somewhat more taking hits compared to DOU; if you're still running frail stuffs here, you might face problems. There's a lot of middling and fast Pokemon in this metagame that are pretty good too, such as Salamence, XZard, Gene, Mega Aerodactyl, that are all capable of taking on the metagame but face a stigma since they're, well, speedy.

Basically, Full TR is way overrated. Personally speaking, it's decent at best, but it's probably fine to run as long as you're not a pushover. On another note, SemiRoom is the best style in this metagame imo. In the first place, it's already pretty solid and sound, but this is a metagame where it can be really effective and diverse since the metagame is bulk-centric and still mostly unexplored. It has good matchups all-around! With the metagame having a good combination of bulky and fast mons, a playstyle where you can dictate the pace sounds really good, and it's the kind of playstyle that has a natural defensive backbone due to having bulky pieces. Diancie, in particular, is a pretty strong attacker-slash-TR setter with a lot of good matchups that's also capable of ravaging faster foes in TR and razing slower teams outside of it. I can see shenanigans with Hoopa-U, P2, and Jellicent happening as well, but that's more uncharted territory with the former being vulnerable to physical hits and the latter two passive-ish.

Okay so now I'm now done with my tirade, here are some (controversial) noms!


Salamence to 1

With its high Speed relative to the metagame, stellar coverage and power, definitely serviceable bulk, and utility in Intimidate, Salamence is one of top Pokemon in the metagame. It has the coverage and power to break down if not KO anything it wants, and it has the Speed to do it too, letting it smash majority of the metagame. It's not just a ridiculous offensive piece either; it has the typing and bulk to take a good number of hits, and with Intimidate it can even support its teammates with ease. This thing shouldn't even DUU jfc. It has good matchups too, excellent at taking onTangela and the stupidly high amount of Fire-types in the metagame and effective at chunking (or KOing with chip) the likes of Diancie, (Mega) Blastoise, Hariyama... basically, it's stupid good.


Mega Metagross to 1

Now, this nom is more fifty-fifty-ish and, no, I'm not doing it because I have some weird infatuation with Mega Metagross. I'm doing this because it's one of the better attackers in the metagame, one with a unique combination of Speed and defensive applications that let it deal with majority of the metagame with ease. The low number of Steel-types in the metagame means that its Steel / Psychic coverage is p much free, and while it doesn't have that much super-effective coverage it's still capable of doing strong neutral damage to a lot. Its high Speed lets it pretty much dictate matchups in most cases since, often, it gets to dish out the first hit, meaning weakened foes have to tread carefully. This plays a good part in its matchups against the stupidly high number of Fire-types in the metgame, all of which it outruns and hits for good damage except for Victini, one of the few things to resist both its STABs. Having a good matchup against the likes of Hariyama, Diancie, Latias, and Mega Aboma helps its standing too. It's by no means perfect--neutral hitting with Speed can only take you so far, the Fires in the meta denies it opportunities (fortunately, most teams only run one), TR can bend it somewhat (it can get away with bulking in)--but it's imo closer to 1 than 1.5.


Regigigas to 2

Before I go on with the nom, I would just like to make this clear: Regigigas has a better DUU tour record than most players.

This isn't a meme. The above isn't a meme, either. Regigigas actually has competitive merit in DUU! With its 7-0 record in the DUU minitour and the metagame mostly unchanged since then, it's pretty much an injustice to leave this unranked. It's pretty much the Cresselia of DUU, capable of taking a lot of hits with its 110 / 110 / 110 bulk statline and capable of unleashing some nifty support moves in Knock Off, Thunder Wave, and Wide Guard. Its versatility, bulk, and access to good support lets it have a function in most matches as a general speed control guy, general support, pivot... etc. It's not like an opponent can ignore it too; while there's its support stuff to deal with, leaving it too long on the field will free it from Slow Start, turning it into a support pokemon that's also an a threat with a strong STAB Return in tow; in particular, after paralyzing stuff on the field, it can go ham with its high powered attacks after. Basically, for a supporter, it's not something you can just ignore or handle a bit passively. The lack of Protect isn't hurting it much, either, as it doesn't really need it ala-DOU Cresselia. Only thing holding it back is its lack of resistances, instant recovery, vulnerability to Fighting-types, and relative passiveness. Still, it's a pretty nifty supporter.


Rotom-C to 2

This is one of the better pivots in the metagame. It has good matchups in the metagame, a good answer to Mega Blastoise, Gastrodon, Crawdaunt and Diancie and in general effective at taking some hits for its teammates. Volt Switch and Leaf Storm is pretty neat, the former letting it gtfo from bad matchups such as from one of the stupidly high number of Fire-types in the metagame. Neat support moves in Wisp and Wave too, and the favorable matchup against Tangela is p nice. This is at least as good as Rotom-H if not better; Rotom-H actually has some worse matchups all around tbh.


Mega Camerupt to 1.5

CONTROVERSIAL NOM MAIN EVENT. The thing I find with Mega Camerupt is that while it's a really destructive monster in Trick Room, it's basically just relegated to just that, a Trick Room attacker. It can't really afford as much to get out of TR and if it doesn't go up, it's mostly in an unfavorable position as it's free to getting beat down by almost the entire metagame. It's not even the best Trick Room mega; Mega Blastoise has that title since it has better matchups all around, isn't dependent on TR, and has better coverage, only losing out on the power side of things. For sure, it's the thing you do NOT want to face in Trick Room, but to a lesser degree that can apply to a lot of other things as well; however, outside of TR, it's the one thing you don't want to risk around with matchups and whatnot, making it 1.5 in my view.


Tangela to 1.5, Blastoise to 1

(Note that the two are separate noms, I'm just grouping them together as it's easier to explain if I do so)

The thing with these two is that they're kinda like Jirachi vs Amoonguss - DUU Edition; one of them is capable of taking hits all around, the other possessing better matchups and along with some other neat trick. In this case, Tangela is Amoonguss (obviously lol) and Blastoise is Jirachi. And similarly to their DOU counterparts, Blastoise comes out on top due to its having better relevant matchups all around, letting it take more hits than its bulk would suggest. When it comes to being redirector, having numerous favorable matchups is key as the more of those you have, the more foes you can take advantage of while supporting a teammate; Blastoise can take on the stupidly high number of Fire-types in the metagame, Diancie, and most neutral attackers, while Tangela can only be really effective against strong physical hits, its SDef leaving it prone to getting shafted by special attacks, and its Grass-typing leaves it vulnerable to Fires. While Blastoise is criticized for being "passive", unlike Tangela and its access to Sleep Powder, this isn't really the case; its Scald and Icy Wind can definitely let it be annoying. Additionally, if a player is competent they can (and will) utilize FM to actually multiply the pressure a partner mon can apply anyway, rendering the point moot to a certain extent.

Blastoise, with its good typing and overall bulk in conjucntion with its many good matchups, lets it be a Tier 1-worthy Pokemon. Tangela would be decent enough to stay in 1; however, its typing and low SDef just leaves it open to too many threats for it to do its job at a Tier 1-worthy rate.

***

On that note: obligatory promotion of my RMT, STARDUST, which peaked #1 :heart:: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stardust-semiroom-in-duu-peaked-1.3585466/
 

n10siT

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non mega swampert 4 -> 3

Regular Swampert can run a myriad of sets, is super bulky, and has great typing. It's a great pair with any fire, as it beats the rocks and opposing fires that check your fire, firely. You can run like AV with icy wind, or sitrus Wide Guard. It's deceptively decent on the offensive end too, with its great coverage in scald/ice beam/earth power. It's a little like gastrodon but better bc it gets Wide Guard and is actually bulky. Gastrodon only shines in MUs with good waters but you're more likely to see good fires than good waters
 
non mega swampert 4 -> 3

Regular Swampert can run a myriad of sets, is super bulky, and has great typing. It's a great pair with any fire, as it beats the rocks and opposing fires that check your fire, firely. You can run like AV with icy wind, or sitrus Wide Guard. It's deceptively decent on the offensive end too, with its great coverage in scald/ice beam/earth power. It's a little like gastrodon but better bc it gets Wide Guard and is actually bulky. Gastrodon only shines in MUs with good waters but you're more likely to see good fires than good waters
I'm pretty sure that ability Damp can be handy.
 
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talkingtree

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Ebelt is also swell, OHKOing Mega Zard X and often 2HKOing Tangela. I've used it on Wide Guard and straight up attacking sets.
 

Platinum God n1n1

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Could we look at starting to create some additional resources to the VR, because I feel like DUU is actually starting to get explored a fair bit
I'd really like to see EV spread compendium with descriptions . Down the road this would lead to full analysis on smogon.com when the meta becomes official .
 
I mean, these are the sorts of things that are going to have to happen to get DUU to take off. What I am specifically thinking is getting some basic team building frameworks (zard x and TR are the first two to come to mind for me) and some actually analysis of DUU mons in the DUU environment.
 
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I completely agree with you Big Danny Mason but whenever someone says anything about that topic everyone just starts saying there is no enough playerbase or enough quality battles cause few tours happen, and thus it's impossible to make teambuilding frameworks, ev spread compendium or roles compendium. I'd love to see those but nobody seems to want to do it... Just telling you...

However, I'll take the chance of talking about this and expressing my opinion now that this theme has arisen. I know the old reasoning (the one aforementioned), but things are changing. This ongoing tour makes 3 DUU tours (I'm including dpl although it's not really a duu tour) so far in the last months. Some months earlier there were really few good players in the tier, but thanks to the tours, more DOU players have discovered DUU. Playersbase it's growing, and whenever I talk to any player who recently started to play DUU, I nearly always find that person enjoying the tier a lot, so from what I can tell, most new (to the tier) players like it. I think we all agree about that more or less, at least on the part in which I say the playerbase is growing.

As a consequence of the grow of the playerbase, the meta started to get more and more explored, and thus it expanded. Currently, common strategies have a clear archetype, with a healthy variety capability and with a wide pool of mons to choose from. There are different playstyles; including several weathers, Trick Room, Tailwind and more; which are all perfectly usable and work well, each of those being superior to ones and weak to others, just like pokemon types. Those are all signs of a healthy, varied meta.

We've got a good meta, and a growing, not bad playerbase. What else do you want? We can definitely make some good DUU resources and thus, improve the playerbase even more. We just have to put a bit of effort into making those resources. Please consider doing it
 
Yeah I thought about that when I posted. It wouldn't be really useful now that the gen is ending... Thankfully, gen 7 is starting soon
 
I was thinking that if we got the general frameworks set up now it could actually be implemented in time for gen 7 such that Gen 7 DUU could actually be a thing
 

Matame

New Rules
Klinklang to 4

Not an amazing pokemon by any means, but certainly has potential. Has a great setup move in shift gear which can allow it to outspeed the entire unboosted metagame and decent stab in gear grind. Great for setting up on and pressuring rocks that check charx like Diancie and Aero.
 

n10siT

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On lack of DUU resources: For starters, we're far too close to Sun and Moon to start any real projects, as this tier will die for a bare minimum of 3 months (more than likely to be 6 months) when Sun and Moon drop, and all of those resources will be mostly negated. However, there are other reasons that DUU resources haven't been made yet, as outside of when there is a tournament, the tier has a player-base of about 20. When gen 7 DUU takes off, I (and others) fully plan on pushing this tier as far as it can go, with abundant resources threads and projects run by myself and other good DUU minds. You have to realize that DUU hasn't even been around that long, let alone been played seriously for a good amount of time. My advice: please wait. DUU will have its day.

Anyway, it's time for some new VR votes. Memoric has replaced clius on our council, and he did us a large favor by giving us most of these nominations. On to the votes!

Rotom-C UR -> 4 -> 3 -> 2

  • N10sit: I can see this going to 3, i think it loses to too many important things and isn’t quite strong enough without LO and with LO you lose the bulk rotom formes are supposed to have. Great pivot though, works great with mence and top, and has wisp.

  • Memoric: ok, 2

  • Nido: 3, nice stabs and support but a bit too weak and frail. Basically the same problem with all rotoms

  • Yoda: 3. See nido+n10’s reasoning.

  • Xzern: i was typing a response but i thought this was rotom frost and just realized this was cut. i dont really see the point in this guy. I guess it kills diancie? sure, 3, whatever I would just use shaymin or serp. The stab coverage is kind of redundant…. i dont want it to go any higher

Salamence 1.5 -> 1
  • N10sit: Absolutely, this thing shouldn’t even be duu, it’s really good. Amazing coverage, speed, tailwind, and intimidate? This mon even works on semi room. Just a great mon and our best dragon.

  • Memoric: ok

  • Nido: 1 yeah, same @n10’s reasoning

  • Yoda: Yes. Great coverage and decent bulk, typing+intim, also probably the best tw setter in the tier.

  • Xzern: yea i liked this mon from the start. Good versatility and coverage, kills everybody

Mega Metagross 1.5 -> 1
  • N10sit: I can’t get behind this one. Too many good fires and steel/psychic is ass coverage. This is still really strong but it’s not tier 1.

  • Memoric: ok

  • Nido: Nope, strong mon but too much stuff that walls and/or beats. Plus megagross hates any intimidate

  • Yoda: No. Struggles against fires, steels and waters, and Tang can only even be 3HKOed with Ice Punch

  • Xzern: sub metagross is really good. I like it in 1

Regigigas UR -> 4 -> 3 -> 2.5 -> 2
  • N10sit: sue me but i think this mon is viable. Wide Guard, T wave, and great bulk? Sign me up. I think tier 4 is ok for this mon.

  • Memoric: ok, 2

  • Nido: 4, this may be viable but I’ve only seen memo use it on that one team so idk. Really niche at any rate

  • Yoda: 4. Agreeing with nido, also would much rather have like P2 if I wanted fat support.

  • Xzern: fuck no just use hariyama. unranke

Mega Camerupt 1 -> 1.5
  • N10sit: I’m really unsure on this. I think I personally overreacted to how good this mon is, but i still think it’s a monster. TR isn’t that hard to use, so idk. I’m abstaining for now.

  • Memoric: ok

  • Nido: 1.5 yeah, I agree that it’s pretty much limited to full tr. Also getting it in and doing damage in the small number of turns it has available is annoying. If someone builds more reliable semi-tr or fullroom teams with this, I might vote it for 1

  • Yoda: Abstain, on the line about this. Feel similar to n10 about needing TR not being a bad thing.

  • Xzern: i agree with nido

Tangela 1 -> 1.5
  • N10sit: this has been in my head for a bit, seeing all these fires dominate a metagame it doesnt seem like a grass can be the best redirector. Really though, this mon is still great, and definitely 1.5 worthy, just not quite 1.

  • Memoric: ok

  • Nido: Yeah, tangela isn’t performing nearly as well as it used to, esp with zardx being at the top rn

  • Yoda: Yeah, a lot of stuff people use tends to do quite well against tang and the omnipresent fires really pressure it.

  • Xzern: no its good for 1 sheesh. Saying “all these fires” isnt a reasonable argument because its not like someones going to be running a ton of fires in a team. Its just one fire 99% of the time and its not like fires are some omnipotent force… u can kill them..

Blastoise 1.5 -> 1
  • N10sit: absolutely. This is, imo, the best redirector in the tier as of now, as fires are currently dominating the game and zard x is around for this tour. Just a great mon tbh

  • Memoric: ok

  • Nido: No, it’s nice at support but way too passive. Unlike other redirectors, basically all it has is follow me and icy wind

  • Yoda: Yes. Scald burns are nice and roar is really good, can reliably take a couple of hits from basically anything, compared to tang which tends to wall something or get OHKOed.

  • Xzern: this wasnt in 1 already? yea its good also roar is good for checking tricky room

Regular Swampert 4 -> 3
  • N10sit: my nom, see my post for reasoning

  • Memoric: ok, it has the bulk and coverage to work, WG can stop certain plays. It has the bulk edge over Gastro too, which is more situational.

  • Nido: yeah, nice bulk+coverage. Basically a bulkier gastro with wg instead of storm drain.

  • Yoda: Yeah, has a few advantages over Gastro and WG is cool.

  • Xzern: i prefer gastrodon a lot. Wide guard is not some required mechanism needed for every team and if i wanted wide guard then i would use hariyama. But as long as swampert is lower than gastrodon im fine


Rotom-C: UR -> Tier 3
Salamence:
Tier 1.5 -> Tier 1
Regigigas: UR
-> Tier 4
Mega Camerupt:
Tier 1 -> Tier 1.5
Tangela:
Tier 1 -> Tier 1.5
Blastoise:
Tier 1.5 -> Tier 1
Swampert:
Tier 4 -> Tier 3
 
yo why tf is medicham tier 4, it hits like a goddamn truck and has fake out which is nice too. bump it to tier 2 or tier 3 at least. also, i think it'd be a good idea to consolidate tier 2 and 2.5 into one tier so this vr is consistent with the dou one. just a thought.
 
Don't really agree on Medicham, Fake out is nice with its huge attack stat but it has the defenses of a wet paper bag which means it wll die to most neutral hits that are thrown its way. Keep it in 4

Latias-Mega is a really great mon right now, as it can virtually set up on tier 1 fires and over half of tier 1.5. It is an amazing mega right now and should probably move up to 1.5 at least.

Thundurus-T is the best electric right now, and a really great special attacker in general. 101 base speed is so anti-meta, and it can kill a bunch of base 100's with the right coverage or even just TBolt. Speaking of coverage, it has a ton. Flash Cannon kills Diancie and Rhyperior, Grass Knot kills Gastro and other grounds, HP Ice kills Mence, Dark Pulse takes a solid chunk out of Lati, and Sludge Bomb kills Tangela well. This really needs a bump up to 1.5

Abomasnow is good, but having it in the same rank as Camel is criminal when you consider that Camel pretty much outdoes it as a TR mega. Move it down to 2.

There are a bunch of 2 mons and lower that could move down, and I don't want to write an explanation for all of them so here's a short list. Blaziken, Mega Houndoom, Mega Lopunny, Staraptor, Mega Blaziken, Exeggutor, Reuniclus, Gothitelle, and Gourgeist could all move down a rank or 2.
 

Matame

New Rules
Megacham should be higher lol, hits harder than p much everything in the tier, fo is nice, speed tier is decent enough, has had a lot of success in both of the duu forum tours, at least 3 imo

also can we move aurorus up from unranked? being a rock that doesnt resist fire is made up for by having an amazing spread attack in hyper voice ice, blizzard. Has decent enough bulk to pull off sets like cm, speed tier is flexable
 
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talkingtree

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Tier Shift time! A bunch of big changes, so here they all are:

Rises (RIP):
Gastrodon moved from Doubles UU to Doubles OU
Hitmontop moved from Doubles UU to Doubles OU
Arcanine moved from Doubles UU to Doubles OU
Raichu moved from Doubles UU to Doubles OU

All four of these were at least somewhat viable, but none really carved out huge niches so the changes shouldn't be too huge. I'm also really proud of glop for moving up.

Drops: (Welcome!)
Dragonite moved from Doubles OU to Doubles UU
Gyarados moved from Doubles OU to Doubles UU
Mawile-Mega moved from Doubles OU to Doubles UU
Landorus moved from Doubles OU to Doubles UU
Gyarados-Mega moved from Doubles OU to Doubles UU

Most importantly: DRAGONITE IS NO LONGER DOU! WE DID IT! I'd like to thank the academy and the Doubles OU ladder for becoming slightly less appalling in its Pokemon choices. Gyarados should be nice as another Fires check and Intimidate user, especially with the loss of Hitmontop and Arcanine, Mega Mawile brings the tier another solid offensive Steel and Diancie check, and Lando-I is a straight up nuke. Not sure how Mega Gyarados will fare, but all these drops should be interesting.
 
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