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Don't Use This, Use That: NU Edition
- Thread starter Lasagne
- Start date
You really have to see it in action to get an idea of how disruptive it can be. There's the surprise factor and protection from setup sweeps that the first set can't guarantee. I'd argue that the second set supports far more consistently than the first.
e: Edited this post to showcase a match where pivot Liepard did a lot of work. You can clearly see how well it worked against trick room by encoring to reset the TR, and pursuiting the predicted Eggy switch. Trolling by encoring fake out at the end was just a nice little bonus :)
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nu-47013839
(Yes I know its Treecko's team, I've adapted the EVs/items/moves myself but I love the core team and it's so much fun to play!)
e: Edited this post to showcase a match where pivot Liepard did a lot of work. You can clearly see how well it worked against trick room by encoring to reset the TR, and pursuiting the predicted Eggy switch. Trolling by encoring fake out at the end was just a nice little bonus :)
http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/nu-47013839
(Yes I know its Treecko's team, I've adapted the EVs/items/moves myself but I love the core team and it's so much fun to play!)
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Yes it gives momentum, but the pursuit+sucker punch is out-classed one way (skuntank) and getting momentum on a pokemon is so easily doable in the current metagame that the set is simply out-classed.
The way to use Liepard is a full support set, with moves such as Encore, Thunder Wave, U-Turn (yes you do use it) and other things to help the team. He can also be used as a weather setter but he should NEVER be used offensively, and you are basically using Skuntank with worse stats.
The way to use Liepard is a full support set, with moves such as Encore, Thunder Wave, U-Turn (yes you do use it) and other things to help the team. He can also be used as a weather setter but he should NEVER be used offensively, and you are basically using Skuntank with worse stats.
Which is.... my proposed set? Not entirely sure what you're saying here, the last slot is slashed for support moves.
No your set was clearly using the Skuntank strategy with encore over taunt and U-turn.
Celever you should try the Pivot set before knocking it. It's actually got plenty of power, enough to ohko Jynx/Haunter with Pursuit even if they don't switch out. With Skuntank, if they don't switch out, you eat an Ice Beam/Destiny Bond since you're slower (and the latter can't even be dealt with by Sucker Punch).
This is a totally misguided post. lol
I strongly recommend trying out pivot Liepard before you talk about how outclassed it is by Skuntank. Both of them play completely differently, with the main focus of Skuntank being Pursuit trapping/Taunting and the main focus of Liepard being creating offensive momentum through well timed Encores and revenge killing with Sucker Punch. In fact, most of the time, I only Pursuit Jynx when I use Pursuit. Otherwise, Night Slash is also a good choice in that slot.
Also, why would I use a full support set with Liepard over something that can actually take a hit? Why would I use Liepard as a weather setter over Volbeat which has slightly better bulk and a slow U-turn?
NP Liepard can actually be remarkably effective. Substitute+Encore basically makes every non attacking move in the game a free setup, and the prevalence of that awful SwagPlay set tends to force a lot of switches into physical walls- who are then eliminated by a +2 Dark Pulse, clearing the way for your team mates. If you're uneasy about mono-attacking, throw on a coverage move over sub. Skuntank's got nothin' on it.
I understand that Pivot Liepard can be pretty damned disruptive, but I've never actually tried it, so I'll leave the above posters to explaining its virtues.
Two posts:
Don't Use This:
Liepard @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 80 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Swagger
~ Thunder Wave
~ Foul Play
~ Substitute
We've all seen this on the ladder, sighed and then either killed it (but not before it parafuses half our team) (it doesn't even get that far against me) or got swept by its sheer uncompetitive bullshit factor. People who use Swagpard are A) noobs and B) not using cat to her full potential.
Instead, Use this:
Liepard @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 80 HP / 140 Def / 120 SpD / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Encore
~ Substitute
~ Foul Play
~ Toxic / Knock off / Yawn...whatever utility move you want really, so long as it screws over bulky dudes
Now this Liepard may share 2 moves with the bad set, but it does play differently. While Swagpard tries to hax everything to death (including itself), it cannot deal with its primary bulky switch-ins like Tangela, Alomo, Torkoal, Mandibuzz and friends. This Liepard aims to cripple these walls while still threatening sweepers, because STAB Foul Play on its own is good enough to trouble offense if Mandibuzz has taught you anything. EVs are a bit weird, but the SDef EVs are enough for the Sub to survive Missy's Shadow Ball and Alomo's Scald, whereas the physical defense means Liepard fares better against multi-hit moves and priority.
Don't Use This:
Serperior @ Leftovers
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
Timid Nature
~ Substitute
~ Leech Seed
~ Taunt / Glare / Mean Look
~ Giga Drain
Serperior looks to have the makings of a good SubSeeder: good bulk, high speed, a slew of support options. Surely it can harass the opponent a good deal, right? The problem with most SubSeeders is that they can't threaten opposing Grass-types who are immune to Leech Seed; Serperior is one of those SubSeeders. There's also the general consensus that SubSeeding....doesn't really accomplish anything, especially if the Seeded pokemon has leftovers or something. The only SubSeeder that is actually worthwhile is Exeggutor, mainly because of its ability but also because it has alternate STAB for opposing Grass-types and actually hits hard.
Instead, Use this:
Serperior @ Life Orb
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Substitute / Taunt
~ Calm Mind
~ Giga Drain
~ Hidden Power Rock
This Serperior gets shit done; instead of using its unique combination of bulk and speed to stall opponents, Serperior utilises those traits to become one of the most effective bulky boosters in NU. Its high speed allows it to use Substitute or Taunt to block status, as well as revenge killing & crits / phazing, healing and opposing boosting, respectively. Then its decent 2-move coverage do the rest, Giga Drain being especially potent with CM + LO boosts to offset a lot of damage.
Don't Use This:
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 80 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Swagger
~ Thunder Wave
~ Foul Play
~ Substitute
We've all seen this on the ladder, sighed and then either killed it (
Instead, Use this:
Liepard @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 80 HP / 140 Def / 120 SpD / 168 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Encore
~ Substitute
~ Foul Play
~ Toxic / Knock off / Yawn...whatever utility move you want really, so long as it screws over bulky dudes
Now this Liepard may share 2 moves with the bad set, but it does play differently. While Swagpard tries to hax everything to death (including itself), it cannot deal with its primary bulky switch-ins like Tangela, Alomo, Torkoal, Mandibuzz and friends. This Liepard aims to cripple these walls while still threatening sweepers, because STAB Foul Play on its own is good enough to trouble offense if Mandibuzz has taught you anything. EVs are a bit weird, but the SDef EVs are enough for the Sub to survive Missy's Shadow Ball and Alomo's Scald, whereas the physical defense means Liepard fares better against multi-hit moves and priority.
Don't Use This:
Serperior @ Leftovers
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 SpD
Timid Nature
~ Substitute
~ Leech Seed
~ Taunt / Glare / Mean Look
~ Giga Drain
Serperior looks to have the makings of a good SubSeeder: good bulk, high speed, a slew of support options. Surely it can harass the opponent a good deal, right? The problem with most SubSeeders is that they can't threaten opposing Grass-types who are immune to Leech Seed; Serperior is one of those SubSeeders. There's also the general consensus that SubSeeding....doesn't really accomplish anything, especially if the Seeded pokemon has leftovers or something. The only SubSeeder that is actually worthwhile is Exeggutor, mainly because of its ability but also because it has alternate STAB for opposing Grass-types and actually hits hard.
Instead, Use this:
Serperior @ Life Orb
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
~ Substitute / Taunt
~ Calm Mind
~ Giga Drain
~ Hidden Power Rock
This Serperior gets shit done; instead of using its unique combination of bulk and speed to stall opponents, Serperior utilises those traits to become one of the most effective bulky boosters in NU. Its high speed allows it to use Substitute or Taunt to block status, as well as revenge killing & crits / phazing, healing and opposing boosting, respectively. Then its decent 2-move coverage do the rest, Giga Drain being especially potent with CM + LO boosts to offset a lot of damage.
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Also Liepard is barely weaker than Skuntank! 93 attack for Skuntank vs 88 attack for Liepard. With nature difference there is a drop in power, but they do play very differently. Pivot Cat is best cat. However, the SUbSwag set has definitely utility and shouldn't be mentioned negatively here either.
SubSwag's utility still doesn't compare to what else it can offer; in fact I'd argue that it is hardly utility at all: all of its 'utility' moves are merely there for its survival. Misdreavus doesn't use Will-o-Wisp just to survive the turn :P
Don't use this:
Ninjask @ Leftovers
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
Everyone's seen this set on the ladder at least once, and in theory it allows for unbreakable sweeps. While this set is effective at dedicated baton pass its incredibly obvious what you are going to do and it is shut down by a large amount of common Pokemon, namely Rock Blast Golem/Garbodor, and Taunt users, such as Skuntank and Misdreavus. In addition, it almost always has to be used as a lead as Ninjask's crippling weakness to Stealth Rock really hurts it. If you really want to use Ninjask, try something like this...
Instead, try this!
Ninjask @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Aerial Ace
- X-Scissor
- Protect
- Baton Pass / U-Turn
Aerial Ace and X-Scissor work great as they allow coverage against some of the most prominent threats of NU, such as Sawk and Jynx. Putting protect on the set means that after a turn, Ninjask outspeeds everything barring priority users and can make a great late game sweeper. Of course, the main flaw of this set is still its frailty, and this is the beauty of this set - it combines the Baton Pass set with offensive prowess. If a Pokemon which walls Ninjask comes in, such as Metang, you can simply Baton Pass your speed boosts out to a slower Pokemon. Alternatively, U-Turn can be used over Baton Pass to do some damage instead. However, this set can have difficulties in getting more than one or two speed boosts due to the lack of Substitute, but a majority of Pokemon can outspeed a large amount of the tier at +2 or even +1. Ninjask's high speed means that it can run Adamant nature for more power, as well as having a chance to OHKO Sawk and Scolipede with Aerial Ace with no rocks in play. Life Orb could also be used on the set, however Ninjask's frailty means that the recoil can stack up, and it doesn't gain many extra KO's aside from possibly being able to pick off Charizard after Stealth Rocks.
edit, changed EV's to maximise bulk while still outspeeding nearly all Pokemon, after a protect +1 Ninjask can outspeed 252+ Scarfed Scolipede and everything below
Ninjask @ Leftovers
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
Everyone's seen this set on the ladder at least once, and in theory it allows for unbreakable sweeps. While this set is effective at dedicated baton pass its incredibly obvious what you are going to do and it is shut down by a large amount of common Pokemon, namely Rock Blast Golem/Garbodor, and Taunt users, such as Skuntank and Misdreavus. In addition, it almost always has to be used as a lead as Ninjask's crippling weakness to Stealth Rock really hurts it. If you really want to use Ninjask, try something like this...
Instead, try this!
Ninjask @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Aerial Ace
- X-Scissor
- Protect
- Baton Pass / U-Turn
Aerial Ace and X-Scissor work great as they allow coverage against some of the most prominent threats of NU, such as Sawk and Jynx. Putting protect on the set means that after a turn, Ninjask outspeeds everything barring priority users and can make a great late game sweeper. Of course, the main flaw of this set is still its frailty, and this is the beauty of this set - it combines the Baton Pass set with offensive prowess. If a Pokemon which walls Ninjask comes in, such as Metang, you can simply Baton Pass your speed boosts out to a slower Pokemon. Alternatively, U-Turn can be used over Baton Pass to do some damage instead. However, this set can have difficulties in getting more than one or two speed boosts due to the lack of Substitute, but a majority of Pokemon can outspeed a large amount of the tier at +2 or even +1. Ninjask's high speed means that it can run Adamant nature for more power, as well as having a chance to OHKO Sawk and Scolipede with Aerial Ace with no rocks in play. Life Orb could also be used on the set, however Ninjask's frailty means that the recoil can stack up, and it doesn't gain many extra KO's aside from possibly being able to pick off Charizard after Stealth Rocks.
edit, changed EV's to maximise bulk while still outspeeding nearly all Pokemon, after a protect +1 Ninjask can outspeed 252+ Scarfed Scolipede and everything below
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There is pretty much no reason to run max (or even a lot of) speed on Ninjask at all: Protect can resolve any issue with Choice Scarfers. That aside, I'd like to know what else that thing actually KOes, as that is my main gripe with that set (as well as pivot Liepard to an extent).
I see what you mean but the main purpose of the Ninjask set is to be able to pass speed while also being a good revenge killer, and having a respectable chance of OHKO'ing threats like Jynx and Scolipede. I guess you could say its similar to pivot Liepard in many ways, in that both aren't extremely hard hitters but work pretty well in both helping the team while putting some damage down and keeping momentum going. If anything the main reason to use that Ninjask would be to pick off weakened threats in end-game, and gain momentum by scaring something out that can't take a hit.
Ninjask has a horribly pitiful attack though and should only be used with a baton pass set. I usually do run X-Scissor over Swords Dance, and you don't need to always send off max speed. If something that clearly has taunt comes in on you then baton pass out, you WILL outspeed.
I like E-belt Ninjask. It's one of my favorite Pokemon in NU, even though it doesn't fit on many of my teams. However, I tend to use a somewhat different set.Don't use this:
Ninjask @ Leftovers
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Substitute
- Swords Dance
Instead, try this!
Ninjask @ Expert Belt / Life Orb
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Def
Adamant Nature
- Aerial Ace
- X-Scissor
- Protect
- Baton Pass / U-Turn
Ninjask @ Expert Belt
Trait: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 220 Def / 36 Spd
Adamant Nature
- X-Scissor
- Aerial Ace
- Protect
- U-turn/Baton Pass/Swords Dance
The 36 extra speed is for beating out Zebstrika, which, while not as common now as it has been, is otherwise the only common +1 speed 'mon in NU that can actually beat Ninjask. The EVs are put into defense instead of HP because it ends up giving more defense overall against priority attacks. (Ninjask isn't going to be tanking special hits anyway.) Vacuum Wave is the only special priority move in NU, and that's resisted 4x. This spread can notably survive a pair of ice shards from piloswine or a pair of aqua jets from Floatzel or Samurott.
Since when was base 90 a horribly pitiful attack stat in NU? Scolipede has that. Kangaskhan only has 95. Drifblim and Ludicolo only have base 90 special attack. Ninjask is let down somewhat by the low base power of its STAB moves, but the coverage is incredibly useful in NU.
Luckily for you, I wrote the book on E-Belt Ninjask. ;)
Common Pokemon
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sawk: 254-302 (87.28 - 103.78%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 305-360 (112.54 - 132.84%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Scolipede: 223-266 (85.11 - 101.52%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 382-449 (137.41 - 161.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 593-701 (217.21 - 256.77%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 60 HP / 0 Def Serperior: 281-331 (91.83 - 108.16%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Chlorophyll Users
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawsbuck: 360-425 (119.2 - 140.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor: 610-725 (167.58 - 199.17%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Victreebel: 283-338 (93.7 - 111.92%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 248 HP / 44 Def Jumpluff: 254-302 (71.95 - 85.55%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Shiftry: 811-955 (251.86 - 296.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Ludicolo
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ludicolo: 360-425 (120.4 - 142.14%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Other Mildly Important Calcs
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask X-Scissor vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 216-254 (49.88 - 58.66%) -- 69.53% chance to 2HKO before hazards
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Roselia: 252-298 (82.89 - 98.02%) -- 68.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Expert Belt Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Combusken: 305-360 (116.41 - 137.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, a cleaner does not have to OHKO every common Pokemon to be effective, so long as it is fast. You have five other Pokemon to beat up that Alomomola and that Golbat so that Ninjask can finish them off. The secured sweep that you can acquire against teams without really strong priority is pretty darn hard to beat. Not even Combusken can win, since it doesn't outspeed even with a lead of one turn of speed boost. You don't use Ninjask like you would use Sawk, flattening as much as you can of a slower team. Ninjask is meant for dealing with fast, frail teams by virtue of being faster (and frailer :rolleyes:) than they are.
Those calcs are pretty to look at, but SR is applied a lot to achieve KOes. In that case, why can we not assume SR is also on your side of the field? Then Ninjask can only watch its prey slip away with relatively little consequence to a more bulky mon (like Golurk or Seismitoad, which are not even that bulky). Meanwhile, if Ninjask has already switched into SR once, any subsequent damage would result in Jask getting killed by Rocks the next time it switches in. (bolded responding to Infernis)
Now I'm not saying it's a bad set, but Ninjask already has a lot of problems to begin with. Most prominent of these flaws is Stealth Rock, which make Ninjask's role as a Baton Passer hard, much less as a revenge killer who only targets specific threats. Even Sneasel isn't having it that bad. :(
Edit:
Now I'm not saying it's a bad set, but Ninjask already has a lot of problems to begin with. Most prominent of these flaws is Stealth Rock, which make Ninjask's role as a Baton Passer hard, much less as a revenge killer who only targets specific threats. Even Sneasel isn't having it that bad. :(
Edit:
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Ninjask can switch into Stealth Rock twice without fainting, as it will have one health left. I've used it with spinners and without, the difference is that when rocks are up you really have to mean it when you send Ninjask out. It doesn't even really compromise its bulk that much, considering that Ninjask shouldn't be tanking hits anyway.
I chose not to put that ninjask comparison into the hall of fame, as both sets are viable, and perform completely separate jobs, so neither is directly outclassed by the other.
also ebelt and band ninjask is fun and definitely pretty good. The sr weakness really holds it back, which is a shame, as otherwise to would be able to spam CB u utrns all it wanted
also ebelt and band ninjask is fun and definitely pretty good. The sr weakness really holds it back, which is a shame, as otherwise to would be able to spam CB u utrns all it wanted
I'd really like to disagree with all the posts bashing SubSwagger Liepard and Baton Pass Ninjask.
SubSwagger may be less reliable compared with the pivot set, but unlike the pivot set, it has exactly the right tools to stop a Pokemon midsweep, and that is Prankster Swagger. Swagger as we all know can turn an entire game around all by itself, and yeah while I concede that Liepard would definitely die the moment it gets hit, it also has an equal chance to NOT get hit, while it subs down and down and knock out the opponent with Foul Play and confusion damage eventually. It's easily one of its best sets even though nobody likes it, and it's the best and fastest haxxer. Also, I don't think we should bash Thunder Wave too much, while it is inferior to Encore, it does make Encore an annoying parafusion machine. IMO the support set (the one Punch posted with Knock Off and Toxic) is done much better by a Pokemon like Mandibuzz, and I don't think it's superior to SubSwagger at all since you can't have anything to prevent the opponent from hitting you and Foul Play sometimes hits like a pussy
As for Ninjask, i think its best set is actually Baton Pass. Sure, you can't switch in multiple times, nor can you take a Rock Blast (you can actually just pass out so it doesnt matter) or a phazing move, but Ninjask has got to be the best Baton Passer in the tier because EVERYTHING appreciates speed boosts and Ninjask is already so quick from the start that you're forced to break its subs unless you carry an attacking move. You can even play mindgames with Sub and Protect depending on whether the opponent uses a damaging or non-damaging move. And once it gets a free sub, Ninjask can easily pass a whole lot of speed boosts plus a sub to a sweeper which is really scary, and most of the time I don't dare switch to my phazer because Ninjask could pass anytime and I want to hit the switchin. Overall Ninjask does its job of Baton Pass very effectively and easily, I don't see why you're understating it so much
On the other hand I don't really like Expert Belt at all. I mean, I've never used it, but Ninjask really lacks power and I don't see why you should use it as an offensive mon when you can easily use it as a support one, and there are much more powerful Flying and Bug-types you could use late-game: I can name Scolipede, Swellow, Pinsir, Braviary... I guess 2HKOing all those shitz are cool but Ninjask has to deal with a lack of power and coverage when compared to these mons (you can say Swellow lacks coverage too but kinda makes up for it with sheer power and priority). And other mons can 2HKO or hell, even OHKO after prior damage, as well. I don't get why you guys like offensive Ninjask at all, maybe if you could provide logs/replays and explain why it should be used over Scolipede, Swellow and the like.
SubSwagger may be less reliable compared with the pivot set, but unlike the pivot set, it has exactly the right tools to stop a Pokemon midsweep, and that is Prankster Swagger. Swagger as we all know can turn an entire game around all by itself, and yeah while I concede that Liepard would definitely die the moment it gets hit, it also has an equal chance to NOT get hit, while it subs down and down and knock out the opponent with Foul Play and confusion damage eventually. It's easily one of its best sets even though nobody likes it, and it's the best and fastest haxxer. Also, I don't think we should bash Thunder Wave too much, while it is inferior to Encore, it does make Encore an annoying parafusion machine. IMO the support set (the one Punch posted with Knock Off and Toxic) is done much better by a Pokemon like Mandibuzz, and I don't think it's superior to SubSwagger at all since you can't have anything to prevent the opponent from hitting you and Foul Play sometimes hits like a pussy
As for Ninjask, i think its best set is actually Baton Pass. Sure, you can't switch in multiple times, nor can you take a Rock Blast (you can actually just pass out so it doesnt matter) or a phazing move, but Ninjask has got to be the best Baton Passer in the tier because EVERYTHING appreciates speed boosts and Ninjask is already so quick from the start that you're forced to break its subs unless you carry an attacking move. You can even play mindgames with Sub and Protect depending on whether the opponent uses a damaging or non-damaging move. And once it gets a free sub, Ninjask can easily pass a whole lot of speed boosts plus a sub to a sweeper which is really scary, and most of the time I don't dare switch to my phazer because Ninjask could pass anytime and I want to hit the switchin. Overall Ninjask does its job of Baton Pass very effectively and easily, I don't see why you're understating it so much
On the other hand I don't really like Expert Belt at all. I mean, I've never used it, but Ninjask really lacks power and I don't see why you should use it as an offensive mon when you can easily use it as a support one, and there are much more powerful Flying and Bug-types you could use late-game: I can name Scolipede, Swellow, Pinsir, Braviary... I guess 2HKOing all those shitz are cool but Ninjask has to deal with a lack of power and coverage when compared to these mons (you can say Swellow lacks coverage too but kinda makes up for it with sheer power and priority). And other mons can 2HKO or hell, even OHKO after prior damage, as well. I don't get why you guys like offensive Ninjask at all, maybe if you could provide logs/replays and explain why it should be used over Scolipede, Swellow and the like.
Considering the miss chance, Swagger does not actually have a coinflip chance of success, it is actually 45%. Those are not good odds in which to stop an impending sweep, and you'd be better off using stuff like Ditto, Kangaskhan or Scarf Tauros to more consistently stop a sweep. Swagger also does nothing against setup sweepers with Sub, whereas Encore can catch them in the midst of boosting.
If a pokemon wants to pull off a haxxing set well, it needs to have at least decent bulk in the case where the opponent does get by the hax. This is why things like Togekiss, Jirachi, Rotom-S, hell even Dunsparce make better hax-abusers. Being the fastest haxxer means next to nothing when you have both Prankster and Thunder Wave, which would mean Murkrow actually gives Liepard competition due to Eviolite and Roost.
People don't combine Thunder Wave and Encore because it basically makes Liepard helpless against bulky pokemon, which brings me to...
Mandibuzz indeed can make use of those moves well, but Liepard can pull those moves off with success because it lures bulky pokemon in, as opposed to sending them scurrying like Mandibuzz. While Encore does not prevent any attempts to offset Toxic, it can buy Liepard free turns easily and also burns their PP quickly if they want to stay in. Foul Play alone does a good chunk to offense, but you want something to optimally deal with those bulky walls. The beauty of this set is that you can still cripple the opponent with your utility move if they do not take much from Foul Play, unlike other Liepard sets, meaning few opponents are safe from Liepard's disruption.
Alright, I slapped together a team for it.
Battle number one went alright despite me screwing up with Golurk left and right. I did some damage with everyone else (Except Swellow, who never came in) and got Ninjask to beat up a Gardevoir and scarf Primeape (which Scolipede and Swellow could not have done) as well as finishing off that dang Lickilicky.
Battle number two got Ninjask in on a Haunter, whom Ninjask beat handily. On another note, it's Zebstrika beating gorebyss after a smash! Later, Ninjask comes in to either beat Golurk, beat Mr. Mime, or force in that Skuntank. My Torkoal got a critical which quickened the end, but otherwise Ninjask would have been able to come in and beat the Mr. Mime and finish off the Skuntank. (My set will always survive Sucker Punch.)
Battle number three involved some derps with me forgetting to actually put Thunderpunch on that Golurk, but again shows off Zebstrika beating up a Gorebyss. What a champ. That guy's massive stacked electric weakness kind of stole the show I guess. Anyway, Ninjask didn't get to do a whole lot in this battle. He did kick the cat at the end, getting that sweet guaranteed OHKO.
It's not an entire ladder run, to be sure, but I hope it shows the niche?
Gotta go fast
I suck at posting.
Don't use this:
Flareon @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
-Wish
-Protect
-Heal Bell
-Lava Plume
Many specially defensive Flareons have been popping up on the ladder for the strict purpose of countering Jynx. While it is definately a good counter for Jynx, that is about all i can do. Any Fire resist or any Pokemon with decent special bulk can walk all over this set, and set up while Flareon takes double the turns to heal itself. Wish passing and cleric support are all done better by other mons with good HP and a Stealth Rock neutrality, but this post is to show you another check for Jynx that also isnt dead weight for the majority of its matches.
Use that:
Camerupt @ Leftovers
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
-Lava Plume
-Earth Power
-Stealth Rock
-Roar
Camerupt is much more reliable to plop on a team than Flareon for multiple reasons. First of all, the Stealth Rock neutrality allows Camerupt to switch in twice as much as Flareon, and it walls practically all of the same Pokemon that Flareon does. Yes, Flareon takes less from Jynx's attacks, but Camerupt is still only 3HKOed by Ice Beam and can KO back, making it a reliable check. Its dual STABs lessen the number of Pokemon that can switch in, including Golem and Carracosta, who attract to Flareon like flies. Plus, it can set up Rocks and phaze shit. Just use a Wish Passer like Fish as a partner, and Camerupt satisfy you much more than Flareon.
Don't use this:
Flareon @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
-Wish
-Protect
-Heal Bell
-Lava Plume
Many specially defensive Flareons have been popping up on the ladder for the strict purpose of countering Jynx. While it is definately a good counter for Jynx, that is about all i can do. Any Fire resist or any Pokemon with decent special bulk can walk all over this set, and set up while Flareon takes double the turns to heal itself. Wish passing and cleric support are all done better by other mons with good HP and a Stealth Rock neutrality, but this post is to show you another check for Jynx that also isnt dead weight for the majority of its matches.
Use that:
Camerupt @ Leftovers
Trait: Solid Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
-Lava Plume
-Earth Power
-Stealth Rock
-Roar
Camerupt is much more reliable to plop on a team than Flareon for multiple reasons. First of all, the Stealth Rock neutrality allows Camerupt to switch in twice as much as Flareon, and it walls practically all of the same Pokemon that Flareon does. Yes, Flareon takes less from Jynx's attacks, but Camerupt is still only 3HKOed by Ice Beam and can KO back, making it a reliable check. Its dual STABs lessen the number of Pokemon that can switch in, including Golem and Carracosta, who attract to Flareon like flies. Plus, it can set up Rocks and phaze shit. Just use a Wish Passer like Fish as a partner, and Camerupt satisfy you much more than Flareon.
Don't Use This:
Ampharos @ Leftovers
Trait: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 SpA
Calm Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Rest
- Charge Beam
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Focus Blast
I swear, whenever I see Ampharos on the ladder, 8 times out of 10 this is the set I see. To be honest, I have no idea where this set came from. It seems like whenever players see that something has Cotton Guard, that they just have to use it. While Ampharos is decently bulky, with very good Special Attack, this set is not effective in NU, in my humble opinion. While I think Ampharos is a good Pokémon (for the reasons I stated, and more that I'll touch on later), this is not the appropriate way to utilize it. While Ampharos has decent Special bulk, it's soul weakness, that being Ground-, is on the physical side. Earthquake is undeniably common in this tier, found on popular Pokemon such as Sawk, Golurk, Tauros, Kangaskhan, and Scolipede. All of these Pokémon (with standard sets) outspeed this Ampharos set and threaten to OHKO it before it can even boost up. Some of these Pokémon can demolish Ampharos even after it sets up. Take Sawk for example; even at +3 Defense, this set is still 2HKOd 99% of the time by Sawk's Banded EQ. The set itself, while possibly effective, just doesn't do it for me. Even if you manage to set up, you are still horribly prone to phasers (as most set up sweepers are, but this one even more so due to not having the immediate power to take advantage of the negative priority a phasing move has), and critical hits, all of which common enough to negate this set from doing what it needs to do consistently. It is also amazingly easy to take advantage of due to its reliability on Rest, and is astoundly easy to halt using Trick / Switcheroo and Taunt. Maybe it's the way I see people play with it, but I just do not think it's Ampharos' most viable
offensive set.
Instead, Use This!:
Ampharos @ Petaya Berry
Trait: Static
EVs: 4 HP / SpA Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Agility
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice / Focus Blast
- Substitute
Instead of using Ampharos as a bulky-booster (for the reasons I mentioned above.), this Ampharos takes inspiration from Empoleon up in UU. SubPetaya Ampharos is surprisingly effective in the current meta; due to Amphy's great Special Attack, decent overall bulk, and nifty coverage, an Agility set is right on the money for something that sets it apart from the rest of NU's Electric-Types. This set is much more usable than the above in that it blocks harmful status, and has the power to hit things hard on the switch-in. Thunderbolt and Hidden Power [Ice] grant adequate coverage throughout the tier. Substitute is used to halt attempts at status from bulky mons such as Alomomola and Tangela, as well as to help Amphy get down to Petaya range. Agility is the crux of the set, allowing Ampharos to reach a speed of 453 with a Timid Nature.
- - - -
also idk if you all find this enough to put it in the OP, but I just wanted to try one out because I have no idea why people
use the former set :/
Ampharos @ Leftovers
Trait: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpDef / 4 SpA
Calm Nature
- Cotton Guard
- Rest
- Charge Beam
- Hidden Power [Ice] / Focus Blast
I swear, whenever I see Ampharos on the ladder, 8 times out of 10 this is the set I see. To be honest, I have no idea where this set came from. It seems like whenever players see that something has Cotton Guard, that they just have to use it. While Ampharos is decently bulky, with very good Special Attack, this set is not effective in NU, in my humble opinion. While I think Ampharos is a good Pokémon (for the reasons I stated, and more that I'll touch on later), this is not the appropriate way to utilize it. While Ampharos has decent Special bulk, it's soul weakness, that being Ground-, is on the physical side. Earthquake is undeniably common in this tier, found on popular Pokemon such as Sawk, Golurk, Tauros, Kangaskhan, and Scolipede. All of these Pokémon (with standard sets) outspeed this Ampharos set and threaten to OHKO it before it can even boost up. Some of these Pokémon can demolish Ampharos even after it sets up. Take Sawk for example; even at +3 Defense, this set is still 2HKOd 99% of the time by Sawk's Banded EQ. The set itself, while possibly effective, just doesn't do it for me. Even if you manage to set up, you are still horribly prone to phasers (as most set up sweepers are, but this one even more so due to not having the immediate power to take advantage of the negative priority a phasing move has), and critical hits, all of which common enough to negate this set from doing what it needs to do consistently. It is also amazingly easy to take advantage of due to its reliability on Rest, and is astoundly easy to halt using Trick / Switcheroo and Taunt. Maybe it's the way I see people play with it, but I just do not think it's Ampharos' most viable
offensive set.
Instead, Use This!:
Ampharos @ Petaya Berry
Trait: Static
EVs: 4 HP / SpA Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Agility
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice / Focus Blast
- Substitute
Instead of using Ampharos as a bulky-booster (for the reasons I mentioned above.), this Ampharos takes inspiration from Empoleon up in UU. SubPetaya Ampharos is surprisingly effective in the current meta; due to Amphy's great Special Attack, decent overall bulk, and nifty coverage, an Agility set is right on the money for something that sets it apart from the rest of NU's Electric-Types. This set is much more usable than the above in that it blocks harmful status, and has the power to hit things hard on the switch-in. Thunderbolt and Hidden Power [Ice] grant adequate coverage throughout the tier. Substitute is used to halt attempts at status from bulky mons such as Alomomola and Tangela, as well as to help Amphy get down to Petaya range. Agility is the crux of the set, allowing Ampharos to reach a speed of 453 with a Timid Nature.
- - - -
also idk if you all find this enough to put it in the OP, but I just wanted to try one out because I have no idea why people
use the former set :/
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