QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Also, is this a massive and pressing problem in the Pokemon fandom? If you want to use Pikachu in precisely every game, that's your right as a paying customer and who am I to tell you otherwise
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Dexit discussion thread
- Thread starter Codraroll
- Start date
I know it's subjective, it's just my opinion. Sorry if it seemed like I was stating it as fact
Ema Skye
Work!
How does this make sense?
Your argument seems to be that the games are bad because "you may only have a very small group of [your favorites], but also say the games "didn't get worse because of Dexit". So what actually makes them bad if it isn't dexit?
I mean, I get the frustration. I lost a lot of my favourites with dexit (I didn't have any make the initial SwSh lineup), but, like you said, SwSh wasn't bad because of dexit (boring mechanics, poor gameplay loop, out of date engine and cheesy writing), and I only had two of my favourites (Teddiursa and Gardevoir) in PLA, but I still had lots of other cool stuff to try and play with because the gameplay loop is addictive, and I, frankly, didn't notice that I lacked so many of my favourites and one of them (Gardevoir) I didn't even use.
Dexit isn't cut content if it wasn't going to be in the game, so there's nothing that needs to compensate for it. If the core gameplay is good, it shouldn't matter how many Pokemon it has in it. Yes, Pokemon are important to the series, but the difference between being able to use just Orbeetle vs both Ledian and Orbeetle in the Spanish region really doesn't matter much, if at all. If it's a big deal that I can't use Ledian in SwSh, then it should be an equally big deal that I can't use Orbeetle in GSC, because neither exists in those games.
The one I put in bolded isn’t exactly a fair statement since newer Pokémon obviously can’t be put in older games and comes off as way too retroactive. I do agree with the rest.
I rather worry more about the power creep, how horrible the balance gets and the amount of all-gimmick-no-substance Pokémon we ended up getting overtime than seeing my favorites not being available. The latter do sucks, but it ends up bein my least of worries.
Sorry to bother you, but I still don't understand the problem of Dexit ... Since GSC, we weren't able (without transfer) to get all the Pokemon in the "storyline" gameplay ? And how many Pokemon weren't in Pokedex in SwSh after the DLC/Home ? 15% ?
The problem is that we got (so far), nothing for Dexit.
PLA is a massively easier title to manage from this standpoint due to its much more close-chained structure. Plus, this is an exercise in confirmation bias like I have rarely seen: "See? PLA is this good because of Dexit" said with no proof, solid evidence or causal relationship demonstrated.
PLA is good, if anything I enjoyed it a lot, but it is much more simplistic in nature than other "main" games. On the other side, BDSP were a sorry copy and paste and SWSH were clearly thrown out for sales months earlier with no grasp on reality like LeBron's predictions at the beginning of the season.
The problem is not Dexit per se but that we got nothing for it, if anything we got less.
It is good for them? Sure. Why would I care in the first place, though? Especially if it brings nothing to the customer?
PLA is a massively easier title to manage from this standpoint due to its much more close-chained structure. Plus, this is an exercise in confirmation bias like I have rarely seen: "See? PLA is this good because of Dexit" said with no proof, solid evidence or causal relationship demonstrated.
PLA is good, if anything I enjoyed it a lot, but it is much more simplistic in nature than other "main" games. On the other side, BDSP were a sorry copy and paste and SWSH were clearly thrown out for sales months earlier with no grasp on reality like LeBron's predictions at the beginning of the season.
The problem is not Dexit per se but that we got nothing for it, if anything we got less.
It is good for them? Sure. Why would I care in the first place, though? Especially if it brings nothing to the customer?
There are ~234 Pokemon still unavailable in SwSh. As of the end of Gen 7, there are 807 Pre-Gen 8 Pokemon (I'm discounting Melmetal and Meltan, who knows which Gen they're supposed to be lol).
By percentage, ~29% of all past-Gen Pokemon are unavailable in SwSh as of the latest update.
Close to 1/3rd of all Pokemon physically cannot enter SwSh, which means that not only can people who enjoy them not use them, but those Pokemon permanently miss out on any ribbons in Gen 7, and anyone who doesn't have the means to obtain and transfer to Home will probably be unable to complete the ND.
There are a myriad of other reasons to dislike Dexit, however at this point I'd recommend reading the previous posts for a list of grievances rather than asking for them to be listed again.
One thing concerns me about Dexit is the DLC. If Dexit is now truly the norm, the DLC can be seen as a way to sell us back Pokémon. And before someone argues that you don’t have to get the DLC, you can have someone trade with you or you can pay with Home, there are two problems. Number 1: There are times where you can’t find someone to trade, despite this being an internet era, and even it’s an inconvenience, and Number 2: Someone is still paying through Home. And Home is potentially mean more expensive since you have to pay 17$ annually on top of Switch Online ( which is required for trading ) and since not every Pokémon is in the game, you have to wait for a game for them to appear, which could take a long time, look at Flabebé and Oricorio for example, which means 17$ annually unless you don’t want your favorite Pokémon in future titles anymore.
If you're struggling to find the mons you're missing, I recommend you head on over to the WiFi Forums or our WiFi Discord, where there are plenty of wonderful people able and willing to help. It might not necessarily be a prompt reply, but most people are able to eventually receive the assistance they require.
Yeah it's wholly unsurprising that we still have Dexit, it's clear that this is the new world order.
The one realistic thing I think can be done which would make me very happy is to implement multiplayer battling and the competitive hub through Pokemon Home. This way we could at least save the idea that multiplayer battles between players with teams of whatever pokemon they want are still possible. It would probably also be convenient in other ways if the format keeps changing for the ingame story or more side games get introduced each generation, and as each generation has a Dexit that's harder to keep track of. It also would mean that you don't have to tailor a regional dex to a competitive balance anymore, (not that I believe Gamefreak does this on anything more than a minimal level, mind) you can just set a banlist in Home and focus on the ingame experience.
The one realistic thing I think can be done which would make me very happy is to implement multiplayer battling and the competitive hub through Pokemon Home. This way we could at least save the idea that multiplayer battles between players with teams of whatever pokemon they want are still possible. It would probably also be convenient in other ways if the format keeps changing for the ingame story or more side games get introduced each generation, and as each generation has a Dexit that's harder to keep track of. It also would mean that you don't have to tailor a regional dex to a competitive balance anymore, (not that I believe Gamefreak does this on anything more than a minimal level, mind) you can just set a banlist in Home and focus on the ingame experience.
They could. It could even be as simple as approaching this very platform with a bag full of Yens and say "I purchase your Pokémon battle simulator".
But they'd be too proud to pay fans to do their work (if it were, say, SEGA, I'd see that happen, but not this case)...
Or they could at least revive the Stadium series. While the "it's Pokémon in 3D!" gimmick is no longer appealing, battling without a Dexit would be.
I know. But some kid might not have access to the Internet to trade online. I had very strict parents growing up, and they were very suspicious about the internet when I was growing up, and regulated it very strictly. Forums like these were against the rules. As a result, my first game was Pearl, I did not have access to any of the Johto starters because I didn’t have a GBA game or any friends who could trade me them since we all started with Gen 4, so that meant waiting for HGSS to come out in orders to get those Pokémon. I think the emphasis on being a kid is especially important since Pokémon’s target audience is children.
If someone is for whatever reason unable or uninterested in trading or transfering up old Pokemon from older generations, then Game Freak isn't selling back Pokemon. They're selling new Pokemon whose species was available in previous games. Dexit is irrelevant to this person.
I am actually OK for a Dexit sacrifice for a better gameplay experience. (we haven't got this yet though)
I can understand that including all pokemon into a game becomes challenging when you are constantly adding more and more to the game and they were going to hit a tipping point eventually. But they need some sort of solution to allow all pokemon to be used in battles in one game at least. I think a stadium based game that focuses just on ranked battles that allows transfer of all pokemon would probably solve most of the problems of Dexit (something lightweight where they only need to focus on the pokemon assets and not NPC, landscapes etc).
I can understand that including all pokemon into a game becomes challenging when you are constantly adding more and more to the game and they were going to hit a tipping point eventually. But they need some sort of solution to allow all pokemon to be used in battles in one game at least. I think a stadium based game that focuses just on ranked battles that allows transfer of all pokemon would probably solve most of the problems of Dexit (something lightweight where they only need to focus on the pokemon assets and not NPC, landscapes etc).
3 things mostly
1- This is first and foremost about transfers, the whole franchise encourages people to get emotionally attached to their pokemon, people cherish their collections and want to keep using them
Pokemon Home promised us we could transfer our pokemon to future games just like other services had for 20+ years, Dexit prevents that, thus people are upset
2- The statted reason at the time (better animations) was not well represented in the games, battle animations were largely unchanged and the games seemed rushed on many other aspects, S&S also costs 60$ instead of 40$ we were paying more for less; yes Legends Arceus animations are better but that doesn't invalidate the fact that S&S was so similar to S&M but with less pokemon available and more expensive
3- People ultimately want to use the whole of their collection, not just part of it; a huge part of what makes new pokemon exciting is how they'll interact with previous pokemon in battle, is also why updates to old pokemon are also exciting they give more options on how to use your pokemon
Hypothetically speaking; if Home premuim increased its fee to 25$ a year while releasing this exact feature
and it looks exactly like this
would you buy it?
cause frankly is a much better deal that what it's offering now
I do remember a Famitsu interview from July 2019 where Game Freak gave a response like this (paraphrased):
"Have you considered adding gameplay features to Home?"
"Yes, we have considered it."
Obviously intentionally vague and non-committal, but GF has said more than 0 things on this topic.
"Have you considered adding gameplay features to Home?"
"Yes, we have considered it."
Obviously intentionally vague and non-committal, but GF has said more than 0 things on this topic.
Not to mention gameplay is a subject quality in this case.
I disagree here. For one thing, people already knew that the inclusion of more Pokémon means less resources can be spent on the development of each Pokémon before you ever said it. This is not a huge revelation. The whole question is not whether backwards compatibility is costly, everyone knew it was, but whether it was worth the cost.
What you seem to be overlooking is the possible benefit that backwards compatibility has had for the franchise. Without backwards compatibility Pokémon would have been tied to their games, but thanks to backwards compatibility they were tied to the player. I often hear about people getting quite attached to their Pokémon and of course this means that they become attached to the franchise as well. You only focus on the cost of backwards compatibility but neglect the benefits of it. The huge backlash proves that at least a big part of the fanbase cared a lot about this feature. How many of those fans would not have gotten into the franchise at all, or would have quit the franchise sooner, if backwards compatibility was never a thing to start with?
I think that it is really difficult to find out whether backwards compatibility was a mistake or not. And Legends Arceus certainly does not solve this mystery nor does it prove either side right.
One thing that has always surprised me is that people do not talk more about how dexit creates a situation that encourages people to look less favorably upon a design that they would otherwise be more neutral too.
Like, lets say they revealed something like Primape nowdays. It is not a super popualr design but I rarely see anyone bad mouth it unless they are just gen 1 haters badmouthing anything about gen 1. But now, it eats up a slot that could go to something you like. This creates a situation that the things you do not care for our now your enemy; instead of a situation where they could be "O, that design is meh, but good for the ape lovers out there."
And this is just going to get more and more of an issue as dex slots become more and more in demand.
But...really the only way you can solve this is to slow down game production and spend the time need to add everyone in and make the game look good. But; that isn't goign to happen because they love their money and milking every little drop they can.
Like, lets say they revealed something like Primape nowdays. It is not a super popualr design but I rarely see anyone bad mouth it unless they are just gen 1 haters badmouthing anything about gen 1. But now, it eats up a slot that could go to something you like. This creates a situation that the things you do not care for our now your enemy; instead of a situation where they could be "O, that design is meh, but good for the ape lovers out there."
And this is just going to get more and more of an issue as dex slots become more and more in demand.
But...really the only way you can solve this is to slow down game production and spend the time need to add everyone in and make the game look good. But; that isn't goign to happen because they love their money and milking every little drop they can.
We aren't at the level Smash Bros is with this issue yet, but it's going to happen soon enough.
I don't really care much for dexit, mostly because i transferred mons once and then learned I'd do nothing with them, so I never did it again. For me, you could completely block anyone from ever transferring pokemon to new games and i'd not care (other than wanting to see everyones reaction because it'd be very funny), but I wish they just flat out said "backwards compatibility was a mistake so we're going to cut back on it" instead of trying to excuse it as "uuuh it'll make animation good" when its just not true lol
Def not a mistake. Anyone who thinks that has a very poor understanding of emotional attachment and how easy it is for people to get attached to things. In this case..pokemon. And when they got an attachment, they are more likely to keep playing.
Just because you do not care, doesn't mean it was a mistake.
Edit: O..and that all goes without saying that it really is a terrible thing to consider it funny for someone to lose something important to them.
Just because you do not care, doesn't mean it was a mistake.
Edit: O..and that all goes without saying that it really is a terrible thing to consider it funny for someone to lose something important to them.
If they didn't come up with 3 separate excuses in a row (all of which turned out to be false), the reception of Dexit would have been far less negative or even positive.
However, the Dexit ""announcement"" was probably the worst attempt of PR I had seen in years (if it can even be called PR).
Difficult to forget the "oh by the way the game won't have all Pokemon" in 3 seconds at the end of the big SwSh presentation, spoken as if it wasn't a big deal.
I distinctly remind that it was at late night (as usual) and I had left to go to sleep with everyone super excited for the wild area and raid, and came back in the morning to extremely furious communities everywhere and was like "the fuck happened".
Then the attempt to cover it with excuses that didn't even make sense... first "it was for balance reasons" (creating Zacian was also a balance decision right? Same as including mr 97% usage Incineroar in the original pokes), then it was for lack of development time (but then what about hiring more people or out sourc-- nevermind actually seeing how well BDSP came out), then it was also permanent but in fact it wasn't cause DLCs happened and expanded the available Pokemon, even bringing back multiple ""unbalanced"" pokemon like idk, Lando, the Tapus, Kyogre/Groudon, etc.
Even Activision Blizzard does a better job at PR than GameFreaks did at the time... :|
I usually do defend GameFreaks on some of their decisions, and I respect the fact that even despite the horrible reaction to it, they are sticking to it (as I've said as well in the topic, I fully support Dexit and full portability should have never happened in first place since it's not sustainable).
However, there's just no defending how awful the PR of this decision was. They messed it up on so many levels that it amazes me they didn't fire whoever wrote the script for the interviews. Or maybe they did. Hopefully.
There are plenty of games that get you emotionally attatched to partners and your own monsters that never see the light of day once you stopped playing. I dont think people are lying about their emotional attachement to their pokemon, just that it doesnt mean they need to transfer pokemon over it, especially considering that I bet most just use the games equivalent of pokemon amie for 5 minutes/play a couple battles on the battle tree equivalent and then drop the pokemon in a box to rot until the next game comes.
Honestly, I feel like the only major lost that would make me hesitant on axing transfering would be is that you couldnt transfer previous pokemon sets to new games, and having to do new sets from scratch is annoying as hell
It's not like your old Pokemon stop existing when you get a new game. Those virtual critters are still there on your old cartridge, available to visit at any time.