Defunct CAP Buff 2: Pyroak

[MrMeat]

Prevos are designed after the main CAP is finished. In this case, Embirch was put together as a final product in 2012, which is over 4 years after Pyroak was finished. We didn't make a conscious decision to put Chlorophyll on Embirch first, then remove it from Pyroak afterward; Pyroak was designed without Chlorophyll, and we decided it would be nice to add Chlorophyll to Embirch several years later.

Thanks for the explanation. Way to piece it together after my autocorrect fail too lol

 

[DougJustDoug]

Here's a little historical info from Pyroak's creation that may be interesting for those of you weighing out how to proceed with Roak's buff. I am not posting this as an instruction to anyone, nor do I have ANY bias or preference in how Pyroak is changed. This is just a little CAP history lesson (fireside story time with grandpa Doug) as it pertains to Pyroak, for whatever that is worth here.

As it says in the OP, Pyroak didn't have a concept. Pyroak was built back when we just threw stuff onto every pokemon and relied on individual persuasive posters to influence the creation and give a little cohesive direction. On Pyroak, the direction (or the LACK thereof) was a total mess. In fact, CAP 3 was such a mess -- we decided to formally introduce Concept to CAP 4, which resulted in our adorable utility-mon, Fidgit!

Yes, Pyroak was a concept nightmare, but that doesn't mean there weren't a few themes discussed and debated during its creation. The biggest theme at the start of CAP 3 was the idea of auto-weather abilities. At that time in DP, weather setters set perma-weather. And it was widely accepted that auto-weather abilities were completely and totally broken and should be banned from CAP. HOWEVER, the CAP project was the first project that could change the mechanics of the game, and we had already created a custom ability on our very first pokemon, Syclant, with Mountaineer avoiding Stealth Rock madness that was perceived as ruining the DP metagame. So, with CAP 3 being a Fire/Grass type, there was a massive amount of discussion about creating a custom Auto-Sun weather ability that would NOT BE PERMANENT.

This was a VERY HOTLY DEBATED topic in CAP at the time. In fact, it was so hotly debated as to whether we should create a 5-turn auto-sun ability (the ability was referred to first as "Greenhouse" iirc, lol) that I ended up calling a temporary halt to the entire CAP 3 project. During that halt, we did the infamous "Weather Test".

I programmed two custom abilities on the CAP Battle Server (based on Shoddybattle) - Dry Spell and Wet Spell, that created Sun and Rain respectively for only 5-turns. We gave the abilities to Groudon and Kyogre. X-Act had done some stat math and determined that level 75 (iirc) Groudon and Kyogre were statistically BSR equivalent to the average OU pokemon at the time. So we used level 75 Groudons and Kyogres with their limited 5-turn weather abilities to battle alongside other level 100 OU pokemon in a series of battles. We divided all the CAP battlers into three teams -- the Sun Group, the Rain Group, and the Control Group (battlers who used regular OU teams). They fought battles against each other, and commented on how well the limited auto-weather abilities worked in actual battles.

The end result was agreed that auto-weather, even for only 5 turns, was still broken. So auto-weather was banned for CAP 3, and the process continued on.

The banning of auto-weather threw everything into a new frenzy. Because many voters voted on Fire/Grass on the assumption of an auto-sun user. So everyone was arguing, which was pretty much business as usual for CAP, then and now lol.

At that point, two very influential senior Smogoners, Aldaron and Mekkah, stepped up their posting in CAP, and provided some direction for the remainder of CAP 3. Again, to call it "direction" is not really accurate, but their opinions were very influential, iirc. Aldaron and Mekkah envisioned Pyroak as a bulky sub-seeder. And sub-seeding wasn't very viable in OU at the time, and hadn't been since the RS days. So, making CAP 3 into a bulky sub-seeder seemed a bit more popular and plausible than some of the other crazy stuff people were suggesting and voting for at the time.

In the end, we got the Pyroak that you know and love today. And after all that mess with CAP 3, we all agreed that CAP needed to get its shit together and have more structure for the intended direction of each CAP at the outset. Which is why we introduced Concept as a formal thing in the CAP creation process.

I'll close Doug's Tales of CAP Lore for now. Perhaps this little trip down Pyroak memory lane helps you as you think about how to go with Pyroak now. Or at the very least, reminds everyone of one of the bigger dramas in CAP history, and how it brought about a major process change that exists to this very day!

Granpa Doug
;-)

 

[Bughouse]

There's also tons of ancient CAP history around prior attempts at revising Pyroak among which included making it a DD Sweeper and then reverting it. Although I am ancient and I was "around" when this happened, in terms of using ShoddyBattle, I hadn't even made a Smogon account yet when the first revisions happened, and I certainly wasn't active in the same way as Doug, if he wants to speak to these prior revision attempts as well.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/revisions-pyroak-discussion.65285/
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ns-the-cap-metagame.73392/page-2#post-2773386
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/movepool-revisions-pyroak.74828/

 

[Lasen]

Alright I'd like to thank all of you for giving your opinions on the matter! I think the discussion was very fruitful and up until the very last moment we had some impactful posts. The general consensus is the fact that Pyroak's typing, movepool, and Base Stats are quite literally anti-synergistic, with elements pointing one way (offensive typing with good offensive movepool, good coverage in Grass/Fire/Ground and access to boosting moves) while also going the complete opposite way at the exact same time (defensive stats with low base Speed meaning it currently cannot be an offensive presence, susceptibility to all forms of hazard and unreliable recovery for a defensive Pokemon). As such, what has become abundantly clear is that we need to decide a direction or a concept to take Pyroak in, whether that is the route of an offensive sweeper, a slow tank, or a defensive wall that can go towards either bias. Keep in mind this is still NOT the point of the process where one can formally submit buff packages, but feel free to bring up specific changes you believe would make Pyroak successful. As per quziel's post in the Voodoom buff process we'd like to avoid a change in typing.
Here's some questions that should hopefully make posting easier:

-As mentioned before, Pyroak has been discussed as a potential sweeper, a slow tank, or a defensive wall. Which one of these would lead to Pyroak being the most successful? Would a physical or a special bias work best for it?
-What can we potentially change about Pyroak's stats to better fit its new role?
-Currently, all of Pyroak's abilities are underutilized or close to useless. What specific abilities should we be looking for?
-Would additions to the movepool help us actualize the concept we're working on?

 

[dex]

As mentioned before, Pyroak has been discussed as a potential sweeper, a slow tank, or a defensive wall. Which one of these would lead to Pyroak being the most successful? Would a physical or a special bias work best for it?

For the first part of this question, I think all 3 options are valid. I do think that the defensive wall role is a fairly limited space, as it mainly is just accomplished with Magic Guard, however. The former two are fine choices. Grass / Fire obviously lends itself more to an offensive playstyle. I'm not sure if sweeper is really the best role for it, and would potentially like to see wallbreaker as an option, though this could be lumped in with slow tank. I think at the moment, I am leaning towards the tank role. As for the physical and special bias question, I think this really is just dependent on each buff package that is proposed. A buff like Grassy Surge would obviously want a physical bias to be paired with, while something like Contrary would appreciate a special bias.

What can we potentially change about Pyroak's stats to better fit its new role?

Shifting its offenses to match whatever buff we give it is imperative. Pyroak definitely struggles with having an immediate presence, so offensive buffs, if an offensive role is chosen, are imperative. Another important thing to note is that Pyroak is slow. It will absolutely need a better Speed tier in order to operate.

Currently, all of Pyroak's abilities are underutilized or close to useless. What specific abilities should we be looking for?

There has been a lot of discussion already about this, but I think 3 abilities have stood out to me the most as the best potential options: Magic Guard, Grassy Surge, and Contrary. Magic Guard can give Pyroak either a defensive or offensive niche, as it could inhabit a role similar to Clefable as a bulky utility Pokemon that is both entry hazard- and Toxic-immune or something more offensive, utilizing its good bulk and coverage to tank attacks and hit back hard with a Life Orb. Grassy Surge is perhaps the most straightforward of the three. It would seek to use a combination of Grassy Glide and Flare Blitz to offensively bowl through opposing teams. It notably would set itself apart from Rillaboom, as it is capable of pressuring Corviknight, and Grassy Surge furthermore gives it extra longevity and a semi-resistance to Earthquake. Finally, Contrary would seek to use Pyroak's startling combination of Overheat and Leaf Storm to tank incoming attacks with its bulk and snowball. Pretty straightforward, though this option comes with some balancing issues.

I want to make a note here about weather abilities, specifically Drought and Chlorophyll. Drought is a strong ability, for sure, but is less consistent offensively than Grassy Surge and Contrary, and I don't think it is the direction Pyroak should go. Chlorophyll, on the other hand, easily makes Pyroak the best sun sweeper in the game; however, it would make Pyroak completely dependent on sun being viable, and while that is the case now, there is no assurance that it will be in the future. Tying Pyroak's viability to a fairly niche playstyle like this does not seem like a good option to me.

Would additions to the movepool help us actualize the concept we're working on?

The biggest movepool addition we can give Pyroak is consistent, 16 PP recovery. Synthesis's 8 PP holds Pyroak back quite a bit, and while that may not be felt that much on offensive sets, I think it would be best if it got access to 16 PP recovery no matter what. Outside of that, I think it depends on what ability Pyroak receives in its buff. Magic Guard and Grassy Surge buffs would love Knock Off as a means of pressuring Flying-types. Stone Edge similarly would be an interesting addition to Pyroak's kit for a Grassy Surge buff.

 

[1BluLizard]

-As mentioned before, Pyroak has been discussed as a potential sweeper, a slow tank, or a defensive wall. Which one of these would lead to Pyroak being the most successful? Would a physical or a special bias work best for it?
-What can we potentially change about Pyroak's stats to better fit its new role?
-Currently, all of Pyroak's abilities are underutilized or close to useless. What specific abilities should we be looking for?
-Would additions to the movepool help us actualize the concept we're working on?

1. Pyroak could fit into any of these roles with the right changes, and with the diversity of its movepool all three could be viable. I think the best one for it would either be a sweeper or a tank, since because its original purpose was kind of subseeding, which fits into defensive wall, and it did not work. With Toxic and Leech seed it could work though. Sweeper and Slow tank could both take good advantage of the amazing coverage Pyroak already has. Its offensive bias really depends on what moves we want it to use, since Pyroak has a good move that is physical and one that is special for basically every type of move it wants to use. It could go mixed but I think that would not go as well since it would remove stats from somewhere else, probably defenses. Special bias seems easier because Pyroak already is a better special attacker but the stats could easily be rearranged.

2. Depending on the role Pyroak gets, its stats would change differently. If Pyroak becomes a sweeper it would need a lot more speed and more firepower, as it lacks the means to hit hard or move fast right now. If it becomes a slow tank then its speed is fine, maybe with a bit of adjustment to outspeed certain key Pokemon, and then it would still need more offensive stats. As a defensive wall its stats look fine, but it would probably need an ability since its typing is not good defensively.

3. I think the best abilities that have already been discussed are Grassy Surge and Magic Guard. Grassy Surge gives Pyroak some defensive help and Magic Guard gives it a lot of defensive help, and removes its Stealth Rock weakness, along with letting it not take recoil from recoil moves like Flare Blitz. Contrary could work but I don't like it as much as the other two, and it seems like it could get very strong if Pyroak keeps the same defenses. Other abilities that I think could be good are Rough Skin or Sheer Force/Tough Claws. Rough Skin is not that good but it could be really good on a defensive wall, letting it deal extra chip. Sheer Force/Tough Claws both are very strong abilities that would help a sweeper Pyroak. Sheer Force could work with any offensive bias, although Tough Claws I don't like as much because it doesn't make nearly as much sense flavor-wise and also only works if we make Pyroak physical.

4. Pyroak already has all the tools it needs to fit all of the discussed roles, the problem is how they don't work together. I think that while new moves could help it, they are not necessary since just a few changes in other areas would let its already good movepool shine. If we wanted new moves though, there are some that could be good. If Pyroak gets Grassy Surge, Grassy Glide could be a good move for it, and it would help it become more of a sweeper being able to finish off fast opponents, while also helping a bulky Pyroak if it keeps its low speed to be able to hit first. As has already been stated, more reliable recovery would also greatly benefit Pyroak, and I think that this alone would be a very good movepool buff to it.

 

[MrMeat]

-As mentioned before, Pyroak has been discussed as a potential sweeper, a slow tank, or a defensive wall. Which one of these would lead to Pyroak being the most successful? Would a physical or a special bias work best for it?
Definitely sweeper/breaker. It's typing is way too bad to be a tank or wall just by changing the ability or even some stats. Just too many weaknesses. As far as physical or special, I personally like physical fire types simply because I don't like my offensive mon getting burned. However the moves in the game are better on the special side. Not sure of creating a unique move is on the table here, but if not I'd say he should be special but keep eq for coverage

-What can we potentially change about Pyroak's stats to better fit its new role?

Shift some of the defense into speed and offense....mostly offense

-Currently, all of Pyroak's abilities are underutilized or close to useless. What specific abilities should we be looking for?

Chlorophyll and or solar power. Especially since the prevo has Chlorophyll already

-Would additions to the movepool help us actualize the concept we're working on?

The moves are pretty much fine. If we went in the direction of a special attacker I think his moves can stay as is. If he shifts to physical fire lash would be cool to help keep up pressure, grassy glide as an option for priority with the added investment of setting terrain, and maybe horn leech (can't remember if he has it) particularly if solar power ends up being his ability so he can remain healthy for his sweep. His current electric and ground coverage I think help alot as well if weather is his new niche because he would have coverage for both peltier and tear trying to take away the sun

 

[MrMeat]

For the first part of this question, I think all 3 options are valid. I do think that the defensive wall role is a fairly limited space, as it mainly is just accomplished with Magic Guard, however. The former two are fine choices. Grass / Fire obviously lends itself more to an offensive playstyle. I'm not sure if sweeper is really the best role for it, and would potentially like to see wallbreaker as an option, though this could be lumped in with slow tank. I think at the moment, I am leaning towards the tank role. As for the physical and special bias question, I think this really is just dependent on each buff package that is proposed. A buff like Grassy Surge would obviously want a physical bias to be paired with, while something like Contrary would appreciate a special bias.


Shifting its offenses to match whatever buff we give it is imperative. Pyroak definitely struggles with having an immediate presence, so offensive buffs, if an offensive role is chosen, are imperative. Another important thing to note is that Pyroak is slow. It will absolutely need a better Speed tier in order to operate.


There has been a lot of discussion already about this, but I think 3 abilities have stood out to me the most as the best potential options: Magic Guard, Grassy Surge, and Contrary. Magic Guard can give Pyroak either a defensive or offensive niche, as it could inhabit a role similar to Clefable as a bulky utility Pokemon that is both entry hazard- and Toxic-immune or something more offensive, utilizing its good bulk and coverage to tank attacks and hit back hard with a Life Orb. Grassy Surge is perhaps the most straightforward of the three. It would seek to use a combination of Grassy Glide and Flare Blitz to offensively bowl through opposing teams. It notably would set itself apart from Rillaboom, as it is capable of pressuring Corviknight, and Grassy Surge furthermore gives it extra longevity and a semi-resistance to Earthquake. Finally, Contrary would seek to use Pyroak's startling combination of Overheat and Leaf Storm to tank incoming attacks with its bulk and snowball. Pretty straightforward, though this option comes with some balancing issues.

I want to make a note here about weather abilities, specifically Drought and Chlorophyll. Drought is a strong ability, for sure, but is less consistent offensively than Grassy Surge and Contrary, and I don't think it is the direction Pyroak should go. Chlorophyll, on the other hand, easily makes Pyroak the best sun sweeper in the game; however, it would make Pyroak completely dependent on sun being viable, and while that is the case now, there is no assurance that it will be in the future. Tying Pyroak's viability to a fairly niche playstyle like this does not seem like a good option to me.


The biggest movepool addition we can give Pyroak is consistent, 16 PP recovery. Synthesis's 8 PP holds Pyroak back quite a bit, and while that may not be felt that much on offensive sets, I think it would be best if it got access to 16 PP recovery no matter what. Outside of that, I think it depends on what ability Pyroak receives in its buff. Magic Guard and Grassy Surge buffs would love Knock Off as a means of pressuring Flying-types. Stone Edge similarly would be an interesting addition to Pyroak's kit for a Grassy Surge buff.

Someone else posted grassy surge/grassy glide as well, and I have to say I don't agree. I like glide with the added investment of setting terrain with either another mon or a move slot, but him having the combo flat out takes away rillaboom's entire gimmick. He should be carving his own niche with this buff, not straight ripping it from another mon right?

 

[Brown4Sides]

I want to make a note here about weather abilities, specifically Drought and Chlorophyll. Drought is a strong ability, for sure, but is less consistent offensively than Grassy Surge and Contrary, and I don't think it is the direction Pyroak should go. Chlorophyll, on the other hand, easily makes Pyroak the best sun sweeper in the game; however, it would make Pyroak completely dependent on sun being viable, and while that is the case now, there is no assurance that it will be in the future. Tying Pyroak's viability to a fairly niche playstyle like this does not seem like a good option to me.

I usually don't share my opinions here but I would like to speak in defense of Drought. Especially when compared to Grassy Surge, which people are considering to be better when I do not consider this to be the case.

Grassy Surge:
- Boosts Grass STABs
- Provides passive recovery
- It is now a Fire type that resists Ground kinda

Drought:
- Boosts Fire STABs and gives access to Solar Beam
- Synthesis is buffed
- It is now a Fire type that resists Water
- Pyroak now has a purpose as a sun setter that can potentially provide team support to Pokemon like Venusaur who has Chlorophyll or Equilibra whose Water weakness is lessened by Drought

I really don't see how Grassy Surge is less consistent offensively than Drought. Grassy Surge boosts Grass moves while Drought boosts Fire moves and allows access to Solar Beam, and Fire is the better offensive typing. Grass is a pretty ass offensive typing and I do not think it is what we should be leaning into in the Venomicon meta. I feel like it's pretty hard to argue that buffing Fire attacks would be worse. A boost to Fire attacks could also potentially allow it to deal more damage to Prologue than other offensive Grass types, which alone could set it apart from them.

As for the argument "there's no assurance Sun will be viable in the future," I would say there's no assurance ANYTHING will be viable in the future. So many CAPs have not stood generational changes well and there's no getting around that. Gen 9 could nerf Unaware and make Arghonaut unviable. It could nerf Fire Lash and now Astrolotl is unviable. The point is, we should not base what we do now on a future that we don't know about. And even if Sun does get nerfed, Pyroak having been viable in any generation at all will be an acheivement.

I don't think Drought would make Pyroak a top pick or even better than Hail, and I think one could argue that Contrary and Magic Guard are better abilities. But, I think that with a potential small boost to Sp. Attack or Speed (or even if you didn't), Pyroak would at least be a better sun setter than Torkoal, and that Grassy Surge isn't better than it. Grassy Surge provides passive recovery and allows Pyroak to keep using Boots, I'll give it that, but I still believe that Drought provides more.

Someone else posted grassy surge/grassy glide as well, and I have to say I don't agree. I like glide with the added investment of setting terrain with either another mon or a move slot, but him having the combo flat out takes away rillaboom's entire gimmick. He should be carving his own niche with this buff, not straight ripping it from another mon right?

Rillaboom is on its last legs and isn't very good at all, it doesn't really matter if something else outclasses it by this point. It's not relevant enough to make a Pokemon that does what it does but better. That being said, Grassy Glide would require Pyroak to get an Attack buff or else it's just worse than Rillaboom, 70 Attack isn't accomplishing anything.

 

[Astra]

As mentioned before, Pyroak has been discussed as a potential sweeper, a slow tank, or a defensive wall. Which one of these would lead to Pyroak being the most successful? Would a physical or a special bias work best for it?

As dex already mentioned, Pyroak can pull off all three of those roles effectively when given the respective buffs it needs to perform them. I do think we should keep in mind that all three of these roles vary in terms of how much of a boost Pyroak needs in order to succeed in them; making it a defensive wall most likely would require the most work given its very mediocre defensive typing, for example. In all cases, though, Pyroak would at least need to obtain an actual useful ability fitting for its role (I know Rock Head could be useful in some paths we can take, but I honestly still think it would need something more than that either way). Likewise, choosing between a physical or special bias depends on other aspects we may desire, such as its role and specific ability. Up front, though, if we choose a more physical bias, we would need to compensate it immensely for its horrible Attack stat at the moment.

What can we potentially change about Pyroak's stats to better fit its new role?

Any offensive role on the table would definitely require it to gain more Speed. More defensive role I suppose can get away without any significant boosts to it, but Pyroak needs to be faster in order to be offensively threatening in some caliber. Offensive roles would also need to get good buffs to its offensive stats, especially Attack if we choose a physical route. Defensive roles, again, probably don't need that big of an offensive buff, but I wouldn't put it off the table so it won't be incredibly passive.

Currently, all of Pyroak's abilities are underutilized or close to useless. What specific abilities should we be looking for?

I'm a very big fan of Grassy Surge for the reasons dex already outlined; its great offensive typing combined with the much needed passive recovery from Grassy Terrain can make it a fairly viable offensive prowess. I don't really agree with the argument that this route would be copying Rillaboom's niche, as they both can do things that the other can't really at all. For example, Pyroak would be able to pressure Corviknight with Flare Blitz, while Rillaboom can provide more forms of utility for the team in Knock Off and U-turn. Both Pokemon would have their separate niches that would allow one to be chosen over the other on certain teams rather than one being chosen over the other outright most of the time.

My liking towards Magic Guard and Contrary has basically the same reasoning as dex's, so I'll save myself from saying what he said verbatim. I would like to add, though, that giving Pyroak access to both Overheat and Left Storm with Contrary can be very dangerous, seeing that, at least to my knowledge, we've never seen a Contrary Pokemon that can utilize more than one move to boost its stats. It's quite possible that it would need to only have one of those two moves in order to be balanced, but I guess we'll see when the time comes.

For a more defensive role, I'd like to bring up the potential option of Poison Heal as an ability. One of Pyroak's current flaws is that it doesn't have access to reliable recovery (the closest being Synthesis, which only has 8 PP), so having access to very strong passive healing can help offset that. The added role of being able to switch into status moves is also a great bonus. Unfortunately, this would require it to drop Heavy-Duty Boots for Toxic Orb, which is a fairly big loss considering that it's weak to Stealth Rock. Regardless, I think it Poison Heal can potentially be a good fit on Pyroak if we go a defensive route.

Would additions to the movepool help us actualize the concept we're working on?

Any sort of recovery more reliable than Synthesis would be a great help for Pyroak for any route we take for it. Knock Off would also be useful in any context to make it easier for it to wear down foes. Besides that, movepool additions are fairly dependent on the route we take; in fact, some routes may not require that big of a movepool change, given that Pyroak's movepool already has a lot of useful moves that it simply cannot utilize effectively in its current state.

 

[Bloopyghost]

Chlorophyll and or solar power. Especially since the prevo has Chlorophyll already

First thing’s first, Kj has already explained why Embirch has Chloro and Pyroak doesn’t. A prevo (that was made years later) having a different ability is not a good reason to give Pyroak that ability.

Secondly, Dex has also explained why Chloro (and by extension the inferior Solar Power) is not a good pick. Sun-based abilities aren’t going to move the needle. To elaborate, there’s a few reasons why sun is currently dead:

1. Vulnerability to rocks
2. Can’t run fire resists (this and the point above are things sun has always struggled with but the below point is the kicker)
3. Dragapult

Pyroak fixes neither of these issues. Unless if we make Pyroak stupid broken, it will not bring sun back to viability alone.

Another user has argued that even if sun isn’t viable now, nothing is assured and it could be in the future. And while they’re correct in that regard (even if I think their argument is rather excessive), we’re also trying to make Pyroak viable. I don’t see the point in giving a Pyroak an unviable niche (especially to “future-proof”) when we can make Pyroak useful now.

Someone else posted grassy surge/grassy glide as well, and I have to say I don't agree. him having the combo flat out takes away rillaboom's entire gimmick. He should be carving his own niche with this buff, not straight ripping it from another mon right?

I disagree with the notion that Grassy Surge Pyroak will just be a discount Rillaboom. Pyroak has better coverage and bulk than Rilla, and is especially valuable for being a Grass Surger abuser that can immediately threaten Corviknight.

While Rilla isn’t doing great rn, it’ll still have some points over Grassy Surge Pyroak. Namely, Rilla will run Life Orb over Boots, giving Rilla more firepower than Pyroak, barring an unlikely insane Attack buff. Rilla also has Knock Off, which also differentiates it from Pyroak.

In short, sun bad. Grassy Surge good.

 

[quziel]

I'd like to advocate for 2 abilities, and then comment on the rest.

Grassy Surge is a good option because we already have basically all the tools we need to abuse it already barring about 20 points in attack. Grassy Glide, Flare Blitz, Swords Dance, High Horsepower is an incredibly solid set for a Surge sweeper/breaker/cleaner. We are meaningfully different from Rillaboom thanks to significant movepool differences (trading Knock/Turn for STAB Blitz), and effectively trading bulk for speed (we tank any one hit from pult while Rilla dies to Draco). Thanks to the significant bulk, typing, and utility differences Pyroak would find itself on significantly different teams from Rillaboom where you value breaking Corv/resilience into Pult significantly more than the utility of Knock Off, and having a water resist (Shifu go Brrr). An important difference between this and Drought is Grassy Glide, which helps bypass our horrid speed stat.

Contrary is a very compelling option for both its offensive (Overheat) and defensive aspects. Offensively its benefits are obvious, giving us access to arguably the best boosting move in the game, Overheat, and near instantly fixes about 80% of our problems with passivity. We still aren't the perfect abuser of the ability given our weakness to Toxic, and our very lacking speed, but it gives us a very solid reason to be put on a team. Its defensive benefits are also worth noting, as it prevents Dragapult from breaking spdef invested Pyroak ever (barring crits), removing Shadow Ball's spD drop chance, as well as letting Pyroak check Astrolotl to a fair degree (barring Encore).

Commentary:

Drought would work to a degree, but its an entirely selfish ability for us given that we are never holding Heat Rock and have negative synergy with about every single abuser possible. Venusaur hates being on a team with us cause we invite in Flying types, Heatran hates us letting in Dragons, etc. That said it gives us an effective water resist and buffs up our Fire-type attacks. Personally I'd prefer an ability like Thick Fat or even Steam Engine if we want to take on Water moves, but this works. Its just a tad overplayed given that we'd have Drought on 60% of our Grass-type caps.

Chlorophyll attaching ourselves to Sun as (arguably) the best sun abuser does not feel like a recipe for longevity. I find other routes to be more interesting. This would work, but I am not convinced it would meaningfully boost our viability as Sun is unviable atm.

Edit: thinking more I am disliking this option more. If it is viable its another annoying to prep for mon in the meta, if its not viable then we sorta messed up. I'd call this a high risk low reward route.

Magic Guard would work but isn't interesting to me. It fixes our main issues, passivity through Life Orb, Knock weakness by not mandating boots, Rocks weakness by ignoring them, Toxic weakness by not taking damage.

Any item reliant ability is unlikely to be successful as we're wed to Heavy Duty Boots. This includes Sheer Force (arguably outclassed by Drought), Poison Heal, and Guts. Poison Heal does have a chance, but if we get forced out we're instantly unable to tank a lot of hits, and Guts is outclassed by Immunity imo.

Not advocating for these but I want them in the discussion:

Sticky Hold addresses our Rocks weakness at a significantly lower power level than Magic Guard. I am not super convinced its enough, but could be the basis of a package that focuses more on stat and movepool changes.

Immunity and Flower Veil both address our Toxic weakness, which is fairly important as it lets us start to deal with the tier's various Toxic Grounds (mainly Lando) and gives us a bit more longevity into Pex. Flower Veil also solves Astrolotl and Dragapult to a degree by making us more resilient into stat drops. Again another potential package that focuses more on movepool and stat changes.

Flash Fire, Dry Skin, Lightning Rod all directly target our lacking defensive typing by providing an immunity into at least one of the typings we are occasionally asked to sponge. Flash Fire is probably the best of these, letting us take on Heatran very well, and providing additional benefits into Astrolotl, Volcarona, and Blacephalon. Dry Skin / Water Absorb let us make Urshifu and Kril quite sad, but have limited utility other than that. Lightning Rod lets us pretend to be a Ground type for the purposes of letting us stop Specs Koko, but doesn't really help us a ton there; Sticky Hold does it better.

Thick Fat see above but this time it lets us make Weavile sad it clicked Axel. This could be useful, and has enough benefits to be considered.

Berserk is basically a lower power Contrary with how it interacts with our movepool and typing. That's totally fine though, and it could maybe work with enough stat buffs and the addition of a 16 PP recovery move.

-----

Movepool:

16 PP Recovery is probably the easiest addition to pyroak. A ton of its issue is that if you ever get Knocked you start running out of Synthesis's very, very quickly, and 16 PP recovery would at least help this issue.

Removing Leaf Storm is something I'd only consider in concert with Contrary, but is probably necessary there to limit the amount of boosting PP and not letting is outlast a ton of checks.

Knock Off is good as always and can help fix power level on any of the above abilities. Lava Plume + Knock Off is a very solid combo overall, and is just difficult to switch into.

Calm Mind is a potential option for some of the above, and gives us something to do with our turns. This is only likely to excel if we have some way to dodge Toxic though, otherwise see Chromera.

Stone Edge / Head Smash this is sorta relevant on Physically inclined packages, but Stone Edge barely outdamages Flare Blitz on flying types barring Moltres, so just worth keeping in mind.

------

Stat Buffs:

20-30 Attack is a nice buff to enable physical sets. 20 Attack is where we start to 2HKO CAPdos with Adamant Flare Blitz, and 30 Attack is where it becomes guaranteed. There's probably other benchmarks, but this is how I feel like illustrating it.

10 Speed lets us break the important 240 speed barrier when running a positive nature. This is where faster Lando spreads are typically hanging out. It also means we outrun Venomicon-Base with zero investment.

 

[shadowpea]

alright um so apparently a lot of people want a special attacking pyroak apparently but offensively the one thing that stands out about pyroak is its rock head + hammer/blitz, phenomenal coverage in ep/rockslide/wild charge and amazing boosting moves in sd/dd/rock polish, literally the holy trifeca of physical setup that we can usually realistically put on a cap. thing is its just so so unfortunate that its stats want it to do literally anything except that. so here im think a major attack buff would work well, and i mean major. 105 is a nice benchmark that allows ada eq to ko 252/0 heatran (since not being able to ko heatran with adamant even unboosted is really embarassing). obviously with bulk as good as pyroaks speed buffs arent as critical but a bit of speed would still be really helpful - particularly because you can outspeed crucial defensive threats and some offensive ones with speed investment like fat lando and other defensive threats with light/no speed investment (such as heatran). rock head + wood hammer/flare blitz is one of the tools that were originally given to pyroak and its a nice bonus if we can make it work. and besides short of gtactics/simple/huge power this is probably the only way we can make a physical set work.

calcs

105 attack

252+ Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 392-464 (101.5 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Pyroak Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arghonaut: 276-326 (66.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (sad, but imagine the calc without the attack buff) (and its a physical breaker/sweeper that argh is afraid of so thats nice)
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 166-196 (54.6 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Landorus-Therian: 232-274 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (you can get here with swords dance or pivoting in)
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 334-394 (92.2 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 374-444 (94.9 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 252-297 (65.7 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Pyroak Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 220 Def Zapdos: 210-248 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

also magic guard is just rock head but better so why not. I think people suggesting this is having specially inclined sets in mind but whatever. i think we still need a bit of stat buff here though. even if we go the special route your re like a fatter clef with worse defensive typing but without nearly as much options as clef

that being said i really love the contrary idea since pyroak is fat enough to make it work for sure, and it actually can do damage at +0 unlike ye olde serperior rip. also quick shoutout to sheer force for fairly obvious and straightforward reasons (bonus for flavor!). other things i like are drought (even if the archetype won't be good you can bet pyroak will be fine as a wallbreaker and its a water-resisting fire which is awesome), poison heal (was gonna write a paragraph on it but someone already did), grassy surge, and chlorophyll

also we can give chloro as a second ability if we want to make pyroak more consistant while still giving it a sun sweeper role. would it hurt? i dont know. but i do like the idea. thats all im gonna say.

finishing by saying im new. and not starting with it cuz why. peace.

e: apparently sheerforce is outclassed by drought. yeah. im dumb. scratch sheer force i guess.

 

[NEETopolitan]

Allow me to precede this by saying I haven't been in CAP for that long, but I have been playing Pokemon avidly since FireRed and I'd like to think I have a good idea of how things work. That being said, in CAP I am by all accounts an amateur.

Now, if it were me changing Pyroak, I'd suggest not changing its Attack stat at all and instead giving it Huge Power or Pure Power. Its Attack stat is actually pretty consistent with existing users of those abilities:

Azumarill - Base 50
Diggersby - Base 58
Medicham - Base 60
Pyroak - Base 70
Mega Medicham - Base 100
Mega Mawile - Base 105

Assuming its Attack stat remains unchanged, Pyroak caps out at 524 Attack with Huge (or Pure) Power, a plus-Attack nature and 252 EVs––which puts it right between Medicham and Mega Medicham. That could let it function as a Choice Band user or a setup sweeper with D-Dance or Swords Dance, and be functional in both roles thanks to its bulk, which could be even greater behind screens. I know that sounds strong, but we already have a huge Attack stat setup sweeper in Cawmodore, and that doesn't seem to be warping the metagame around it.
If it's not using Band, it can still hold Heavy-Duty Boots if it wants.

Another possible Ability would be to go from Rock Head to Reckless, but it seems to want to be a bulky attacker, and if we're doing that, it needs some extra juice which I think a Power ability could easily provide without vaulting it into overpowered territory.
Maybe also Guts? If Pure/Huge Power is too big a boost, the 1.5x boost that Guts gives could help it, though since it's Fire-type it'd necessitate the use of a Toxic Orb which might be less than desirable.

I've been toying with Pure Power Pyroak in Custom Games on Smogon and generally speaking it seems to be pretty good, though not too overbearing. I'm not exactly an expert, as I said, so there could be a way to make PP Pyroak absolutely busted that I just haven't found yet. But if we're trying to make Pyroak viable, this could work out.

 

[Bloopyghost]

Now, if it were me changing Pyroak, I'd suggest not changing its Attack stat at all and instead giving it Huge Power or Pure Power.

Another possible Ability would be to go from Rock Head to Reckless, but it seems to want to be a bulky attacker, and if we're doing that, it needs some extra juice which I think a Power ability could easily provide without vaulting it into overpowered territory.
Maybe also Guts? If Pure/Huge Power is too big a boost, the 1.5x boost that Guts gives could help it, though since it's Fire-type it'd necessitate the use of a Toxic Orb which might be less than desirable.

Pure/Huge Power is an incredibly boring option imo. Ye sure, it certainly gives Pyroak a power boost, but not in any engaging way. Pure/Huge Power also offers zero benefits outside of "attack go brrrr."

Reckless is unnecessary when it already has Rock Head and we have Magic Guard on the table. Pyroak's suceptibility to chip doesn't need to be compounded even further.

Quziel has also already touched on Guts, it's just not the way to go. Toxic on a Guts user again compounds the chip issue. We’d be better off with Poison Heal, Immunity or Flower Veil.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Contrary is a very compelling option for both its offensive (Overheat) and defensive aspects. Offensively its benefits are obvious, giving us access to arguably the best boosting move in the game, Overheat, and near instantly fixes about 80% of our problems with passivity. We still aren't the perfect abuser of the ability given our weakness to Toxic, and our very lacking speed, but it gives us a very solid reason to be put on a team. Its defensive benefits are also worth noting, as it prevents Dragapult from breaking spdef invested Pyroak ever (barring crits), removing Shadow Ball's spD drop chance, as well as letting Pyroak check Astrolotl to a fair degree (barring Encore).

I would like to back Contrary but only on the condition that we also remove Leaf Storm. Having access to both Leaf Storm and Overheat as ways too boost our Special Attack is incredibly excessive and I have major balance concerns regarding this. Not only does it mean our strong STAB that also boosts us functionally have 16 PP, which obviously makes PP stalling it way harder (The fact that Overheat hits the main Pressure user in the current metagame for super-effective damage doesn't help with this at all), but it just makes Contrary even easier to accumlate Special Attack boosts than it already is, and its to the point where I would argue it would do it way too easily. There aren't a whole lot of mons in the metagame that are really able to tank both Overheat and Leaf Storm, and the most notable two that can ( ) don't want to take an Earth Power, especially if Pyroak has already boosted. Pyroak's bulk also generally means that you don't really need to worry too much about having to switch out and give up your boosts unless you either get hit with Toxic or your opponent is running a Flying-Type wallbreaker.

As for why I would prefer Overheat over Leaf Storm, I think Overheat is paradoxically both the better move (Fire is obviously a better offensive type than Grass) and the move that opens up more obvious counterplay (Fire has stuff that just stops it ( ) while Grass doesn't really have that), both of which I think are things we should be looking for in terms of buffing Pyroak.

As for Flower Veil, I honestly don't really like it all that much to be honest. It just feels like an overall worse version of Contrary, and outside of the interaction with and I guess , it honestly does basically nothing, and while I understand that it can be argued that those two things are good enough on their own, I'm really not sure if I agree with that in all honesty (Adding a single mon, and one that is generally played in a support role at that, onto the rather small list of things that Pyroak is able to wall doesn't seem like much of an improvement in my opinion, and in the case of Dragapult, 90% of the time your ability is doing nothing). Besides, it just feels overall inferior to Contrary (Not only does Contrary do the "wall lotl" niche better, but it gives us another niche on top of it). For a similar reason,

I'm not really a big fan of Sticky Hold or Immunity either, as Magic Guard does the things both of these abilities are trying to do at the same time and has more to offer as well (Item freedom is huge). As for what my opinion on Magic Guard is, I honestly don't think I can really add a whole lot to the conversation that hasn't already been brought up.

I usually don't share my opinions here but I would like to speak in defense of Drought. Especially when compared to Grassy Surge, which people are considering to be better when I do not consider this to be the case.

Grassy Surge:
- Boosts Grass STABs
- Provides passive recovery
- It is now a Fire type that resists Ground kinda

Drought:
- Boosts Fire STABs and gives access to Solar Beam
- Synthesis is buffed
- It is now a Fire type that resists Water
- Pyroak now has a purpose as a sun setter that can potentially provide team support to Pokemon like Venusaur who has Chlorophyll or Equilibra whose Water weakness is lessened by Drought

I really don't see how Grassy Surge is less consistent offensively than Drought. Grassy Surge boosts Grass moves while Drought boosts Fire moves and allows access to Solar Beam, and Fire is the better offensive typing. Grass is a pretty ass offensive typing and I do not think it is what we should be leaning into in the Venomicon meta. I feel like it's pretty hard to argue that buffing Fire attacks would be worse. A boost to Fire attacks could also potentially allow it to deal more damage to Prologue than other offensive Grass types, which alone could set it apart from them.

As for the argument "there's no assurance Sun will be viable in the future," I would say there's no assurance ANYTHING will be viable in the future. So many CAPs have not stood generational changes well and there's no getting around that. Gen 9 could nerf Unaware and make Arghonaut unviable. It could nerf Fire Lash and now Astrolotl is unviable. The point is, we should not base what we do now on a future that we don't know about. And even if Sun does get nerfed, Pyroak having been viable in any generation at all will be an acheivement.

I don't think Drought would make Pyroak a top pick or even better than Hail, and I think one could argue that Contrary and Magic Guard are better abilities. But, I think that with a potential small boost to Sp. Attack or Speed (or even if you didn't), Pyroak would at least be a better sun setter than Torkoal, and that Grassy Surge isn't better than it. Grassy Surge provides passive recovery and allows Pyroak to keep using Boots, I'll give it that, but I still believe that Drought provides more.

Rillaboom is on its last legs and isn't very good at all, it doesn't really matter if something else outclasses it by this point. It's not relevant enough to make a Pokemon that does what it does but better. That being said, Grassy Glide would require Pyroak to get an Attack buff or else it's just worse than Rillaboom, 70 Attack isn't accomplishing anything.

Having access to Base 91 Priority, even in the Venomicon metagame, is definitely quite valuable and I feel isn't something you are giving enough credit. Pyroak's movepool in general is also just better suited for it to be a physical attacker, and in my opinion a resistance to Ground is more valuable than a resistance to Water in the current metagame (Outside of , nothing is running Water coverage right now. Meanwhile, Ground has literally the most common coverage type in the entire game since GSC). The passive recovery given by Grassy Surge is also, for the most part, more useful than a boosted Synthesis since the extra healing given by Grassy Surge distributed out the entire team, as opposed to the extra healing brought by Drought, which is really only given to you by Pyroak.

I also don't think that Pyroak would be a better Sun Setter than Torkoal at all, mainly because Torkoal offers both an actual resistance to Fire and a form of hazard removal, two things that are very important for Sun teams to have. Besides, Sun teams in general just aren't very viable right now for the reasons Bloopyghost mentioned before (I would actually like to add to what they said in that Air Balloon growing so much in popularity over this path month really works against it, since now as long as that Balloon doesn't get popped most of your Sun Sweepers are just unable to do their jobs properly).

I agree with you that Pyroak would need more Attack to take advantage of Grassy Surge though, but thankfully we aren't only changing just one thing with this buff so I don't think that should be used as a point against going with the ability.

 

[Brown4Sides]

Thing about Huge/Pure Power is that for one, it's pretty unimaginative, literally any Pokemon that gets it would be good with it, it's just that mindless of an ability, but also if I wanted a Rocks weak physical wallbreaker that breaks everything using Swords Dance and a recoil move, I'd use Epilogue, which would still completely outclass Huge/Pure Power Pyroak in this regard just by being faster.

I also agree that in the result of losing a move out of getting Contrary it should keep Overheat as opposed to Leaf Storm. As I said in my argument for Drought, Fire is the better offensive typing in this metagame, and powering Grass STABs is not something we should be leaning into, which is why I'm not a huge fan of Grassy Surge.

Hard to argue against Magic Guard, both the Toxic and SR immunities are really appreciated and definitely is one of the better things we could give it.

 

[kjnjkmjk1]

As mentioned before, Pyroak has been discussed as a potential sweeper, a slow tank, or a defensive wall. Which one of these would lead to Pyroak being the most successful? Would a physical or a special bias work best for it?
I'll agree that, given the blank slate we have been handed regarding Pyroak and its complete lack of a niche, all three are achievable. I will also agree that defensive wall is probably the most limited. Pyroak's typing is a significant roadblock to its defensive potential, even with an ability that gives it back some of its resistances. Being a sweeper better leans into the existing benefits of Pyroak's typing and offensive movepool, but both of Pyroak's awful speed and poor offensive output need to be significantly compensated for. My preference out of the three is the slow tank route, given it best fits Pyroak's existing bulky stats, while also interacting with the offensive properties of Pyroak's typing. While the lack of resists from its typing precludes it from going too defensive, I disagree that the typing is too large of a roadblock for this route; giving it better strength offensively helps take pressure off of its defensive woes and makes leaning on its strong statistical bulk more palatable.

Regarding bias, this is extremely dependent on the buff package at hand. A special bias would be much easier to work with in terms of avoiding significant stat changes, but depending on how major or minor of a change stat swapping is viewed as, it shouldn't be excessively difficult to swap to a physical bias if the buff calls for it. I agree that going mixed doesn't seem to be worth the trouble when sticking to one side seems much more efficient.

What can we potentially change about Pyroak's stats to better fit its new role?
Pyroak's offensive stats are pretty paltry, so an offensive route is going to need to consider what to do with its relevant attacking stat. All physically biased routes must do something about Pyroak's awful 70 Attack, and certain specially biased routes may want to give a more minor boost to the 95 Special Attack. In addition, both routes will need to consider Pyroak's pitiful 60 speed (particularly any sweeper set that doesn't use priority). The bulk, being one of Pyroak's few good traits, is fairly likely to get preserved regardless of what role gets chosen.

Currently, all of Pyroak's abilities are underutilized or close to useless. What specific abilities should we be looking for?
The one that stands out the most to me in Contrary, which would allow Pyroak to establish a niche as a tank with dangerous damage potential. As quziel said, this damage potential fixes a lot of our issues with passivity. I will also echo their mention of Contrary allowing Pyroak to turn stat drops on their head, giving it additional defensive utility.

I can agree with the assessment that one of Overheat or Leaf Storm should probably be cut, but I also want to point out this ability requires little else in the way of changes to Pyroak. Its movepool is otherwise already well-suited to the ability, since it can either boost up to give its vaunted three-move coverage some much needed oomph, or use the offensive pressure that is generated to use one of its many utility moves. Its stats also fit in well; its excellent bulk gives it multiple opportunities to come in on neutral attacks and threaten opponents out with potential 2HKOs, its SpA is usable without being oppressive at +2 and higher, and its speed acts as a natural balance to Contrary's insane damage potential. If there are any other changes found to be necessary, they should be fairly minor.

General Ability Commentary (because otherwise this post is ridiculously long)

• Grassy Surge has already been explained a couple times in the thread. Overshadowing Rillaboom could happen, but even in the worst case scenario, we wouldn't be completely yanking its spot in the meta when Pyroak and Rillaboom are set up differently as Pokemon and have different strengths. Rillaboom will always have its better speed tier and attack, barring any extreme stat buffs or redistributions, along with access to Knock Off (if we don't give it to Pyroak) and U-turn. The buff as a whole seems effective, although I don't find myself as intrigued by it compared to Contrary, partially because Rillaboom is a demonstration of both Grassy Glide's power and how it can get tanked anyways. Pyroak does have Fire STAB, but it is also noticeably slower and is decently likely to stay that way in a bunch of cases.
• Magic Guard sits in the "boring but effective" category. It would certainly make the buff a success by completely eliminating Pyroak's issues with Stealth Rock and other passive damage, which would be a boon to its already strong natural bulk, and freeing up its item slot, but it's just not that interesting of a buff to me.
• Chlorophyll certainly gives Pyroak a niche with minor adjustments, but I'm in the camp that tying ourselves to the Sun archetype wagon doesn't do much for Pyroak in the short term and means we will likely go significant stretches in the future where Sun is not particularly good and thus Pyroak is not good.
• Solar Power is maybe workable in combination with Rock Polish, but the lack of immediate speed and the constant chip (even with the bulk and access to sun-boosted Synthesis), combined with the already-existing issues that I explained with Chlorophyll, makes this an awkward choice.
• I agree with quziel's assessment that Drought would ultimately be an ability Pyroak mainly uses for itself. As they mentioned, it does not synergize with current Sun staples, and it will also never be a better setter than Torkoal, which has the distinct advantage of packaging both Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin on the same Pokemon. Maybe you can get it to work in a somewhat similar manner to Drought Jumbao, which primarily set for itself so it could click Solar Beam, but that makes it potentially awkward to build with, and at that point I'd rather pick a different offensive ability. I would also be lying if I said "CAP hands another Grass-type Drought" wasn't bothering me in the back of my mind.
• Sheer Force could work, but would need more adjustments. Pyroak is still Stealth Rock weak and is stuck between picking Boots for longevity and picking Life Orb or another offensive item for a needed boost. Darmanitan can function off of its insane 140 Attack stat and decent speed tier, while Nidoking has an insanely wide movepool and inherent defensive utility in its typing (namely Electric immunity and Rocks resistance). This route likely wants a strong boosting move to compensate for Pyroak likely not running an offensive item, and even then we might need to make more adjustments to make it work.
• Snaelstrom is a pretty stark example of what happens when a Poison Heal Pokemon is stuck between Toxic Orb and Heavy-Duty Boots. We are better off in a number of ways compared to Snaelstrom, namely not being completely dependent on Poison Heal by having 50% healing in Synthesis, but the item conflict is too significant for me to find this option particularly appealing. Maybe there's a way for it to just use it passively to absorb Toxic, but at that point there are other status-blocking options on the table.
• Huge Power/Pure Power feel shallow as a buff. They don't really do anything besides a power boost, even if the power boost is significant. It's possible that it can carve out a niche thanks to Dragon Dance or Rock Polish, but I'm just not feeling it. Also echoing the criticisms of Guts, given the issues of item conflicts and getting stuck with Toxic Orb, and that Reckless's power boost is not really worth exacerbating our issues with chip damage.
• A lot of other abilities feel like they fall in the "needs more help" section, where they need a bunch of other things stacked with them to work out. I like the idea of Berserk the most out of these, but given how slow it ramps up compared to Contrary, it's difficult to see how much of a niche it can really build without a significant Special Attack boost to make its offensive presence more immediate. Flower Veil is also rather interesting due to the stat drop and status immunity, but it really wants to pair with a boosting move. Immunity is a weaker version of Flower Veil that could work as a substitute, but also needs a lot more help. Sticky Hold preserves the Knock-absorber and effective hazard immunity aspects of Magic Guard, but is otherwise somewhat minor in effect. Flash Fire and Thick Fat are probably my favorites among the type immunity/resistance abilities, given the usefulness of a Fire immunity against Heatran or a Fire/Ice combo resistance versus Heatran and Weavile, but again need to be paired with other significant buffs. By contrast, I think Dry Skin (where Water attacks are rare and Scald immunity is less useful on a burn-immune Pokemon) and especially Lightning Rod/Volt Absorb/Motor Drive are just too limited.

Would additions to the movepool help us actualize the concept we're working on?
As mentioned multiple times already, the one movepool addition that seems most generally helpful is reliable 16PP healing (of the Recover/Slack Off variety), given that, in the majority of cases, Pyroak will still be stuck with Heavy-Duty Boots and will want the longevity. Even then, some potential abilities are strong enough to make the necessity of 16PP healing questionable. Otherwise, movepool additions feel extremely dependent on what the buff is. Pyroak's movepool is already fairly expansive, with the aforementioned Grass/Fire/Ground three-move coverage along with a decent-sized utility movepool that features Stealth Rock and Aromatherapy. People have already covered Knock Off and Stone Edge/Head Smash fairly thoroughly, so I won't go into them. Calm Mind seems fine enough in certain scenarios where status can be avoided (Magic Guard, Flower Veil, and Immunity come to mind), although I am somewhat ambivalent about it as a direction for Pyroak as a whole.

Some other commentary:

Not sure of creating a unique move is on the table here

As far as I'm aware, any customs (including previously created ones in CAP like Mountaineer, Paleo Wave, etc.) are strictly off the table.

If Pyroak gets Grassy Surge, Grassy Glide could be a good move for it, and it would help it become more of a sweeper being able to finish off fast opponents, while also helping a bulky Pyroak if it keeps its low speed to be able to hit first.

I want to clarify that Pyroak already gets Grassy Glide, so this wouldn't actually be a movepool addition.

 

[viol and bass]

Personally I think the physical routes are more interesting for Pyroak. I honestly really like the idea of rolling with the ability Pyroak already has, Rock Head, and just giving it the stats to actually make use of it properly. We could viably make Pyroak either a bulky setup sweeper or a tank, and either route would allow it to make use of its solid offensive typing. This would definitely require a considerable boost to attack and speed, but it takes the ability and movepool that Pyroak already has and allows it to shine in a unique way. It's so aggravating that Pyroak has this access to the incredibly compelling Rock Head Flare Blitz / Wood Hammer, in addition to Heatran/Astro coverage, and just has poorly allocated stats for it. I'm not really familiar with how it functioned after the gen 4 changes, but I think this would be a cool route to pursue.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

I like Rock Head and supporting Phys, but would like while Magic Guard is a buff on it (let it take a Toxic, then it absorbs Status, it already absorbs Burns) it lets it operate as SubSeeder more effectively. Pyroak has a huge HP Pool already so Recoil impact is reduced, and %Healing is improved.

Pyroak does feel like it needs more physical support however, 60 Spe, 70Att 120BP vs Astrolotl 108 Att, 80 BP +Def Drops? Astrolotl wins out every time.

Does it have Head Smash yet? The small accuracy bump and +30BP over Stone Edge with no Recoil due to Rock Head/potentially Magic Guard feels like it has that additional edge over bulkier flying types looking to take advantage of the slow speed.

 

[boo836]

Imo another big hurdle is Pyroak's BST, which hangs in the lower end of OU and middle-range of UU. I think the fact that discussion is already focused on absurdly powerful Abilities is a strong indicator that we should look to adjust Pyroak's stats before settling on an ability.


That said, I'm going to go ahead and say that if anyone considers Contrary it may also be worth looking at taking Scorching Sands and Earth Power off of Pyroak's movepool in addition to Leaf Storm. Contrary already makes resisted hits strong after a single boost, so idk why Contrary Pyroak needs expanded coverage.

 

[Brown4Sides]

That said, I'm going to go ahead and say that if anyone considers Contrary it may also be worth looking at taking Scorching Sands and Earth Power off of Pyroak's movepool in addition to Leaf Storm. Contrary already makes resisted hits strong after a single boost, so idk why Contrary Pyroak needs expanded coverage.

I don't know about this. I'm okay with removing Leaf Storm but +Contrary -Ground coverage doesn't feel like a buff, and more like a rework, and I think it's too excessive. We're trying to buff Pyroak and I think adding too many nerfs in addition to its buffs won't make it any better, and no Ground coverage would make it totally useless against Heatran, Astrolotl, and a lot of Dragon types. Grass/Fire/Ground with a boosting Overheat is very good, but I think that Pyroak's low Speed and poor defensive typing would help keep it in check.

 

[Bloopyghost]

Imo another big hurdle is Pyroak's BST, which hangs in the lower end of OU and middle-range of UU. I think the fact that discussion is already focused on absurdly powerful Abilities is a strong indicator that we should look to adjust Pyroak's stats before settling on an ability.

BST is not an indicator of how good a mon is, it’s the distribution of its stats. Pyroak has 540 BST, that’s on the higher end for mons in general and we have CAPs with lower BSTs so I don’t know what this argument is.

I also don’t see how you’re gonna adjust stats before deciding on an ability. If we’re GSurge, we want physically offensive. If we’re Contrary, we want special. It doesn’t make sense to change its stats when we haven’t decided on its ability.

 

[shnowshner]

I'm sort of entering an inactive period since I want to avoid spoilers on Legends as much as possible, so consider this my last post of any real significance for a while.

I do want us to be careful of over-prepping for the current metagame rather than making Pyroak work as a whole. There's a lot of suggestions I have seen that feel overly-focused on current trends as if they're gospel and won't change in the future. Obviously we can't predict how things change but IMO our goals should be to make Pyroak work cohesively rather than tailor it to very-specific benchmarks that aren't gauranteed to stay relevant even within the current CAP generations. An increase to a specific stat that matches well into the most popular spread for a given mon doesn't secure Pyroak as having a positive matchup into it forever, and a lot of strong Pokemon are usually those that are very flexible in how their sets can be constructed.

This is part of the reason I like suggested Abilities like Contrary or Grassy Surge over stat buffs. Stats feel a lot more relative to a metagame and can easily become obsolete when shifts happen, while a more defining Ability that lets Pyroak stand out among its peers is something that immediately gives it purpose. Sure enough, the CAP that doesn't get anything out of its Abilities in a meaningful way has beem considered one of the most underwhelming and lackluster of the bunch for a long time now. Even if Chlorophyll isn't an option I really support, it at least has the benefit of giving Pyroak a clear use. I feel stat boosts are best utilized to improve a mon that already has a lot of the tools it needs to succeed, but simply fails to match up to the BSRs of everything else in the metagame.

Pyroak definitely could use a bit of both, depending on which direction we take it (i.e. it needs offensively-inclined stats if we want it to work offensively), but I feel in this case stats need to be a secondary focus, and whatever the stats are designed to do should be in a way that they have the highest likelyhood of remaining relevant in the future.

I guess I will also mention that I'm more of the opinion that our buffs should focus more on making a CAP have a clear niche or role rather than secure said CAP a niche in a particular metagame. We're 30.5 unique mons deep at this point and it'd be a challenge to have them all remain competitively viable at all times in tandem with whatever things Pokemon decides to throw at us next. It's why I'm tentatively OK with Chlorophyll, even if it's far from my favorite option: maybe Sun teams will have long stretches of unviability, which directly affects Pyroak, but at least if you wanted to make a Sun team, Pyroak could stand as a particularly strong, if not defining or mandatory option for the playstyle. I do feel like I might be in the minority here, so I wanted to make my stance known.

Right now I'm leaning towards Contrary, assuming it gets the correct adjustments it'd make Pyroak pretty cool, without the risk of being super toxic like Serperior and its higher Speed + Glare can be, due to how slow and generally more vulnerable to chip/strong coverage Pyroak is.

 

[Pipotchi]

-Currently, all of Pyroak's abilities are underutilized or close to useless. What specific abilities should we be looking for?

I think Chlorophll, Grassy Surge and Rock Head seem like the 3 abilities that seem immediately interesting: I mean Chloropyll is a one-and-done instant fix (that probably is closer to needing nerfs than additional buffs), Grassy Surge is a little bit of everything, and Rock Head is nice because it doesnt require an ability change rather a stats tweak.
All of the above come with downsides: Chlorophyll doesnt need to worry so much about Sun going out of favor (which can also seem to happen due to our tiny playerbase and circles that dont interact with each other) but rather whether Growth boosting Sun sweeper which actually boosts its Fire STAB in Sun unlike Venu/whatever and can always get a Growth thanks to obscene bulk and perfect coverage is balanced. Its mixed coverage is also wild paired with Growth, so there's no walling this thing.

Grassy Surge touches a little bit in all aspects (helps with getting chipped, helps a bit with damage, helps a bit with team purpose, helps a bit with resists) but it also doesnt fix any single problem fully. It still has issues with all of the above, chip for example is still very annoying and doesnt let Pyroak ignore hazards or change the way it plays around Knock Off, Toxic, whatever else. It doesnt free its item slot. Grassy Surge can be useful for certain teams but it has always been a bit annoying paired with Lando-T or Garchomp or whatever on your team since they dont have High Horsepower to work around it. 1.3x would go a little way for boosting its damage BUT: grass is the least used move out of Pyroak's coverage and it still doesnt hit that hard with something like Energy Ball. I dont know if I would switch something for grass coverage thanks to the boost- its other more important moves would remain weak. So the issues all still remain. Its not really a step towards fixing anything but it would be a slight improvement that then needs to find solutions with stats and movepool.

Rock Head is obviously not viable atm. To keep this ability it needs stats. I dont think this route is that complicated, like Chlorophyll, flat stat buffs seem like an easy solution. Problem is the amount of stats pyroak needs to make this work is going to make it hit around 600 BST pretty quickly, unless it reorganizes its stats elsewhere which is like a weird buff/nerf when it should really get a flat buff.

Contrary seems a bit weird especially if its going to be able to boost with both Overheat and Leaf Storm, seems like it could get a bit oppressive since its bulky enough to make itself beat Tornadus/Zapdos 1v1 and there doesnt seem to be anything else that really handles it defensively.