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This would put Voodoom's SpA at 130, mainly allowing it to OHKO standard specially defensive Heatran with Focus Blast. It also scores some other things such as always OHKOing pivot Tornadus-T with +2 Dark Pulse thus making it generally a bit riskier to switch in, and only requiring less than 5% prior damage on Equilibra to reach the OHKO. This buff would put Voodoom on a power level much closer to other breakers like Hydreigon, and would just give it the "oomph" it needs to have to compete in the CAP/OU landscape.
Yo, so here's currently what I have planned to put on the major buffs slate for voting:
- Adaptability
- Electric Surge
- Magic Guard
- Mega Launcher
- No Guard
- Technician
Keep in mind that moderation team would like for there to be a 24/48h discussion phase around these buffs because whichever major buff ends up being voted for will largely dictate how we go about slating the minor buffs. I'd also like to explain a bit why I slated what I did:
- Adaptability boosts Focus Blast to some pretty hefty levels of power. While this doesn't address how inconsistent the move is, it also still makes Aura Sphere and Dark Pulse a good bit stronger too and allows us more room to potentially get some run out of Voodoom's physical movepool with moves like Close Combat.
- Electric Surge is a cool tool because it gives Voodoom essentially a third STAB attack in Rising Voltage. This is a significant increase in damage against common Voodoom checks like Toxapex, Clefable, Tapu Fini, and Tomohawk and gives potentially gives it some application alongside Pokemon such as Zeraora and Victini that benefit from the extra damage on their Electric-type moves.
- While Magic Guard doesn't provide Voodoom with any outright damage buffs, it provides Voodoom with a super useful immunity to passive damage. A big thing some of the other wallbreakers at and above its Speed tier benefit from is... not having to deal with Life Orb recoil or being immune to hazards of some kind, i.e. Krilowatt, Nasty Plot Tornadus-T, and Syclant. This makes Voodoom really easy to wear down and compounds on its not amazing defenses quite quickly. It isn't a buff that directly addresses Voodoom's poor power but instead lets it stick around for longer to dish out more damage overall. edit: I also think that Magic Guard is a "small" major buff in that it probably gives us more leeway with how many minor buffs can end up getting approved.
- Mega Launcher fixes Voodoom's biggest issue in two ways. For starters, it greatly boosts the damage of Aura Sphere and Dark Pulse, making them both effectively 180 Base Power. This damage boost to the former, though, is the big benefit. One of the issues Voodoom struggles with right now is its reliance on Focus Blast for its big damage, which is a notoriously awful move due to its accuracy. Aura Sphere doesn't come with these woes, and so Mega Launcher really helps out with consistency alongside dishing out damage.
- No Guard is like Mega Launcher in that it simply fixes Voodoom's issues of consistency---no longer will Focus Blast risk missing. Obviously, this ends up being a relatively small change in the grand scheme, and so we'd likely see in the minor buffs slate other potential additions to make this ability not so small in scope.
- Technician is the last slated major buff here to diversify gameplay with Voodoom. It's one of the few fast wallbreakers with a priority move, and giving it a good damage boost helps differentiate Voodoom from other common Pokemon like Dragapult and Kerfluffle. It could also give Voodoom some extra insurance against potential revenge killers like Rillaboom and Zeraora.
Naturally, here's some commentary on why some major buff submissions were not slated:
- Magnet Pull just doesn't address Voodoom's issues. Trapping Steel-types is cool yeah and would give Voodoom a niche, but it feels more like trying to work around Voodoom's problems rather than directly address them.
- Sheer Force is missing the slate because, while Voodoom is bad, I'm not so sure that it's in need of Sheer Force levels of bad. Yes, one of (maybe the only, I can't recall) the submitters also specified that they'd want to see a Special Attack decrease alongside it, but I'm not certain that's really feasible to get addressed on the slate? Maybe it is and CAP moderators can lambast me for my errors.
- Steelworker is sort of like Electric Terrain in that it gives Voodoom a third STAB to work with, but I feel the boost in power to Steel-type moves isn't really helping Voodoom where it needs it. Fairy-types are definitely an issue for Voodoom to bypass, and Steelworker is an immense increase in damage output against them, but I feel overall that Voodoom would still have the same issues it currently does with regards to consistently dealing meaningful damage. I just don't think this scope of targets is broad enough to provide it the help it needs.
There were a few buff suggestions listed as major that I didn't note here. Some of that is because I just disagreed on how big a buff it'd be, i.e. Ice Beam, +10 Spe. Some of them were because they were listed alongside another major buff and intended to be paired with it, i.e. Thunder with No Guard. It'd be impossible to fairly judge slate-worthiness for the latter, and so those will instead be revisited after major buff polling.
I am of the belief that +25 SpA should be slated, as it is a significant power increase for the mon, arguably on par with No Guard, while also preserving the existing abilities that define Voodoom. It is arguably the most boring of the options that could qualify as a Major Buff, but it functions, and I believe we should leave the option open to keep our original abilities.
Electric Surge is super cool, opens up some very weird team combos (eg Krilowatt, Hawlucha), keeps the mon arguably in a team support role (ish), and helps out its horrid 4MSS by giving splendid neutral coverage with the two existing STABs while still hitting the Fairy types you'd need Flash Cannon for hard. This is an option I like a lot.
Tried out some test games, I think all of these options work if we accept that 4 attacks Specs is better than LONP. The mon needs power and longevity, Specs does that LO doesn't.
I don't really have any significant issues with the slate. There was a lot of talk about Sheer Force on Discord (including from me), but I can certainly agree with excluding it from the slate. I also don't have anything against +25 SpA making it onto the slate, as it is a pretty drastic power increase (for reference, Heatran, Kyurem, Magnezone, and Tapu Lele all sit at 130).
I think I support No Guard the most, as it is a relatively straightforward buff that directly addresses one of Voodoom's issues, while leaving room for us to further adjust if needed. I also like Mega Launcher for a similar reason, as it provides (some of) the reliability with No Guard and a power boost to its other STAB, although with less flexibility in the minor buffs.
Although I don't like them quite as much, the rest of the abilities also make Voodoom more flexible than No Guard/Mega Launcher do (some more than others), and I think they would all be good buffs. Adaptability provides the interesting route of allowing Voodoom to go mixed, and it does have access to Close Combat and Knock Off to mix things up, which can make it surprisingly difficult to deal with. Electric Surge provides access to an insane psuedo-STAB in Rising Voltage, which ironically sacrifices some effectiveness against flying targets for damage against everything else, along with an avenue to slightly preserve the spirit of Voodoom's concept in supporting specific teammates. Magic Guard has a bit of a stigma attached to it, thanks to Clefable's reputation and the sheer amount of passive damage it blocks, but it does have clear benefits, and I think Krilowatt is a decent model in how Voodoom can take advantage of Magic Guard without becoming particularly overwhelming. Technician is probably one of the more out-of-left-field options, but having played against Technician Voodoom, I can attest to the surprising amount of damage from Technician Vacuum Wave to a Zeraora (252 SpA Choice Specs Technician Voodoom Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 153-181 (48.2 - 57%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO), and the option of a slightly stronger Dark Pulse with some utility in the form of Technician Snarl is intriguing as well. I still prefer the more straightforward options in the end, though.
I think Specs is a rather interesting perspective to take, given that the default item that Voodoom uses currently, and the one that I suspect many of us have built our opinions of Voodoom around, is Life Orb. We spent a lot of time going over Voodoom's four move coverage, but Specs takes away some of the flexibility of that coverage offers in exchange for saving on passive damage and even higher power. I think Specs fits better on certain abilities more than others (Specs Tech Vacuum Wave vs the classic Magic Guard Life Orb). I won't claim enough experience to say that Specs is necessarily better, especially since it makes it easier for Fairies to force Voodoom out than before, and I'd like to see some more discussion on this. However, my experience in test games, although obviously skewed due to bringing teams not particularly prepared for Voodoom, has shown that Voodoom can be very effective even when Choice-locked.
No complaints about the slate other than support for adding +25 SpA, but don't feel too strongly about it.
What I do feel strongly about however is that I feel Mega Launcher mostly outclasses No Guard for our purposes. No Guard's most promising buff is fixing the reliability of Focus Blast + the addition of slightly more powerful coverage ala Thunder (though I do feel like people have kinda overvalued how much of a buff Thunder is). It's been mentioned how NG allows for more flexibility in regards to minor buffs (namely stats), but I feel like out of all options listed NG (and probably tech) would actually require a larger increase in the stat department to truly accomplish the goal of buffing Vood, as NG just doesn't do enough to raise the power ceiling on it's own. Going this direction wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, NG could feasibly get that large speed boost some want without much worry, but Mega Launcher just does what it does and so much more cleanily imo.
Mega Launcher solves the Focus Blast problem slightly better with the PP boost of Aura, AND allows Dark Pulse to actually do considerable damage. Fixing FB's consistency issue without also dealing with No Guard's drawbacks (as unlikely as they may matter, dodging hurricanes is nice) in addition to helping it's Dark STAB more effectively deal with targets I think puts Vood in a much better position than NG would. I feel ML just hits that perfect sweet spot of raising the power ceiling without much if any need of stat boosts without potentially being overbearing.
On the topic of overbearing, after having mulled it around for a bit and talking in Discord I think Adaptability may be a bit too much in the same vein Sheer Force was. Adapt just hits so fucking hard, it actually allows Voodoom to effectively run mixed or even full on Banded sets despite it's lackluster attack. Being able to go in on either side pretty hard sounds like a recipe for making Vood unfun to face imo, in the same vein as Mega Luc during XY.
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 720-848 (187.9 - 221.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 746-878 (194.7 - 229.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Voodoom Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 748-880 (195.3 - 229.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Not an extensive list, just to demonstrate the power level it puts Vood too even with it's mediocre Atk, and this doesn't even cover the Special side of things. I don't know if I want to call for Adapt to be outright removed from the slate just yet as it is hard to judge it without much in the way of testing, but I do think it warrants more discussion for certain.
No strong opinions on the other slated options yet, but I do have a worry about Technician undershooting as CAP tends to do with it lol.
I’m going to agree with Zeta here that adaptability might actually overshoot.
It raises the power ceiling on its STABS as much as Sheer force, and while it doesn’t improve the strength of its coverage it boosts physical attacks as well.
This calc shows, that Banded Voodooms Close Combat with adaptability hits
as hard as Banded Urshifu Ss Close Combat.
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 241-285 (60.2 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Voodoom Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Corviknight: 240-284 (60 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And while it’s dark move is a little weaker, it has the ability to go mixed and a much better speed tier.
This is why I like Mega Launcher a lot more.
It’s much more Focused and only boosts 2 moves.
While the boost is even Stronger and Specs sets are going to be really hard to find reliable switch ins. It’s much more predictable and doesn’t need any additional consideration on move or stat nerfs.
I think our best options in terms of performance are going to be No Guard, Electric Surge, and Mega Launcher.I don't have a particular order for these as I think they're all equally viable in their own ways.
No Guard makes our powerful Focus Blast much less punishing to run now that it can't miss, in addition for the potential to improve our Electric coverage with Thunder. It does have downsides in that our Dark and Steel attacks gets nothing in return, and we're now much more vulnerable to the opponent's low-accuracy moves.
Electric Surge grants a huge boost to our Electric coverage thanks to Rising Voltage and gives Voodoom another layer beyond a Special Breaker, as terrain setting can be highly valuable for certain team styles. It doesn't help deal with our STAB problems and can be thwarted by opposing terrain setters, but the raw power of Voltage under terrain obsoletes Flash Cannon and thus opens up one of our moveslots.
Mega Launcher makes the least thematic sense but is also the most efficient route we can take, turning our mediocre dual STABs of Aura Sphere and Dark Pulse into formidable weapons. None of our other moves are boosted with this ability, however.
The other three suggested don't sit well with me. Adaptability makes us too strong on both ends unless we do some serious stat reductions. Magic Guard would make LO more practical but feels like giving way too much in one package as it also completely removes the threat of all forms of passive damage. Technician is just bad sorry, sure it unlocks cool move combos but we have zero moves which really abuse its effects (i.e. no multi-hits), and aren't hitting harder with our good moves which is what we need to be doing. I'd rather just have a Special Attack increase, would mostly do the same thing but actually help out our other moves.
This would put Voodoom's SpA at 130, mainly allowing it to OHKO standard specially defensive Heatran with Focus Blast. It also scores some other things such as always OHKOing pivot Tornadus-T with +2 Dark Pulse thus making it generally a bit riskier to switch in, and only requiring less than 5% prior damage on Equilibra to reach the OHKO. This buff would put Voodoom on a power level much closer to other breakers like Hydreigon, and would just give it the "oomph" it needs to have to compete in the CAP/OU landscape.
I think it also needs to stand out from the following two similar mons at least slightly to actually exist on the tier list: Hydrei Kerfluffle
Latios is a great example of a mon that shares the same speed tier and uses that to immediately threaten slower mons. draco is the big move here. it hits a lot of things neutrally and its an unreliable move that cant sweep thanks to its drawbacks, similar to the focus blast of voodoom. similarly to voodoom it also has a fallback move that hits less hard with psychic.
Nidoking is a good example for voodoom as a mon that hits decently hard but also relies on good SE coverage. nidoking can 2hko anything with its numbers if it hits super effectively.
for me, Voodoom should fit between these two. it has the qualities of both. that means it should hit slightly weaker also. so this is why im proposing a SPA increase of 25.
[calced on a no-typing Mew just for damage output]
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 277-328 (68.5 - 81.1%)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 192-227 (47.5 - 56.1%)
[calced on a no-typing Mew just for damage output]
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 199-234 (49.2 - 57.9%)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 187-222 (46.2 - 54.9%)
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 125-148 (30.9 - 36.6%)
[calced on a no-typing Mew just for damage output]
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 269-317 (66.5 - 78.4%)
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 179-212 (44.3 - 52.4%)
these values are comparable to latios, while being slightly weaker to compensate for the fact that it can hit a lot more super effectively. similarly to latios, it can justifiably run specs and life orb in this scenario, which also likely successful with expert belt. on top of this, it also grants it a high powered priority move to stand out with, which can deal a fair chunk to even resists at +1.
here are some actual meta calcs that are relevant:
252 SpA Choice Specs Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 266-314 (67.5 - 79.6%)
this will 2hko slowking with regenerator factored in. that means slowking cannot pivot on it reliably.
+2 252 SpA Expert Belt Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 722-852 (101.1 - 119.3%)
blissey is actually reliably ohkod after nasty plot with any boosting item.
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 128+ SpD Heatran: 393-463 (101.8 - 119.9%)
heatran cannot trade hits to eliminate a problematic voodoom
Think back to previous dark fightings in the metas that they succeed: urshifu, pangoro, both are totally brutal wallbreakers with little to no safe switchins because the stab combo is just that good. This is what voodoom is wanting to do with its typing, and voodoom makes it even crazier thanks to very high speed, and excellent electric and steel coverage hitting basically anything that usually switch in. this is why i have suggested a smaller spa buff. voodom has an even easier time on paper than the likes of urshifu because the typical special walls all hate it- blissey, slowking, equilibra all struggle to handle its stab moves. yes it will be unreliable with focus blast, similar to the likes of np tornadus t, kerfluffle, or offensive zapdos. you will lose games missing a crucial +2 hurricane or +0 hurricane with these mons, and it is annoying. however id rather keep this than have to rejig the stats values around a guaranteed 120 stab move that can always be clicked. i feel like it keeps it more in line with latios which is a road to success.
if you played voodoom before, maybe you will agree that the main problems with the mon are two results: a) you dont ohko walls you hit super effectively after a boost: examples, spdef clefable, spdef jumbao, etc b) because your low starting damage, mons can trade hits with you very reliably or pivot on you even if you "threaten" them. this makes it hard to get any boosting and allows the opponent to trade hits with voodoom to eliminate it as a threat even if it has in theory a stellar matchup vs the enemy team. examples: mandibuzz, slowking, corviknight, toxapex
voodoom is often heralded as the worst cap but in reality its not that bad. it can have a good matchup on paper, and im sure many of you that like to experiment with caps can find it lightly functional. this is why i dont think it needs an overbuff just to be brought to the same level as B and C tier wallbreakers like latios and nidoking. a simple bump to spa helps with both of the problems listed above, and now the mon is looking fairly usable with its high speed tier with pseudo-para immunity, good damage output and coverage, boosting move, good bulk for an offensive mon, decent priority, and various niche options outside of its strong base movepool.
Regarding Lightningrod:
Lightningrod at the moment is not that big of a deal, which is why an ability change is so popular. if voodoom does get a lucky switch on a zapdos, or a nido tbolt, or victini bolt strike, or kril, or any thunder wave, the idea is that +1 voodoom is not threatening enough to make the most of it. at 130 spa, things start to change though.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 278-329 (86.6 - 102.4%)
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 322-379 (100.3 - 118%)
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krilowatt: 487-575 (109.9 - 129.7%)
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Krilowatt: 375-442 (84.6 - 99.7%)
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cyclohm: 391-462 (93 - 110%)
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 32 HP / 252 SpD Astrolotl: 306-360 (83.8 - 98.6%)
+1 252 SpA Choice Specs Voodoom Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zeraora: 178-210 (56.1 - 66.2%)
So in the end, thats my writeup for a 25 spa buff for voodoom. i think it will help it be a more threatening mon in the metagame. with these changes, it can easily fight for a slot against B and C tier wallbreakers like latios and nidoking, and even has standout qualities against dark types/fighting types in higher tiers like hydreigon and kerf. like i said before, voodoom has a very simple path to "usable", with many features that become properly activated with just a flat damage boost. to change its abilities or playstyle feels like something that wouldnt need to be done, and in my opinion if it can get away with such a minor change id rather this than basically scramble its entire identity.
As much as I like the idea of Electric Surge + Rising Voltage, I do worry about its ability to actually increase Voodoom’s consistency issue. While a nuclear Rising Voltage against things that aren’t levitating or Flying mons is a sick tool for Voodoom to have, what we need isn’t necessarily a third STAB option. Rather, we should be focusing on the increasing the power level and upping the consistency of our STABs as it is. I feel that Mega Launcher is the best option for this, personally, as it nullifies the consistency problem that Focus Blast has by substantially buffing Aura Sphere (buffing Dark Pulse is also a very nice effect too). Very little is going to want to switch in on Specs ML Aura or DP, and the pre-existing coverage such as Thunderbolt or Flash Cannon.
Mega Launcher doesn’t entirely remove Voodoom’s other flaws either, such as its longevity issue or that it finds difficulties getting in onto the field. But for our purposes of buffing Voodoom to be about a mid-tier breaker, I feel that this is honestly fine. We don’t want to create a massively overpowered mon, we just want Voodom to have a better foothold on its niche within the metagame, and increased viability as a result.
I have to agree with Pipotchi here. +25 SpA is a clean and easy means of upping the ante on all of the problems we really face with Voodoom. Lightning Rod feels useless in practice because a) most Electrics can beat us and b) even if we outspeed them, we rarely have the means to put real pressure on an opposing team once we get the +1. That big boost to Spa solves our problem, because now it can actually put immediate pressure on the whole team once it gets that free +1 SpA from an Electric move. Another thing to note is people have been stressing on Focus Blast's inaccuracy. And yes, making Aura Sphere stronger is a means of doing so, but may not be exactly the preference we want. Part of the charm of Focus Blast being as strong as it is is it has a good enough drawback to make it risky, but not debilitating. 105 SpA is just not strong enough to make Focus Blast feel worth risking the miss. What's the point of risking the Focus Blast versus a Libra if it can get off a Doom Desire regardless, or the FB on a Heatran if it gets the chance to do heavy damage back to us because Focus Blast from 105 will not kill it anyways. If we have a 30% chance to fail outright, that 70% chance better ALWAYS do what it needs to do. Other Pokemon make do and are successful with Focus Blast and Hurricane, so the move itself is not the problem here, it's how Voodoom utilizes it. And buffing it's special attack deals with that, while not having us worry about the implications of a Dark Fighting type with boosting and 120 BP dual STABs with no drawbacks whatsoever. Playing to all of the existing strengths of Voodoom (priority, good dual STAB, potential 4 Move perfect coverage) while addressing all of the major faults (easy to pivot around, having a real sense of consistency [by making that 70% REALLY count]) all at once with that +25 SpA buff.
- +25 Sp. Atk
- Electric Surge
- Magic Guard
- Mega Launcher
- No Guard
- Technician
This will be the final slate we're going with. Discussion about a simple stat raise has been good and allows us to preserve all of Voodoom's current abilities, which I think has some value. It's also a good way to be safer with Voodoom's buffs and avoid a case of overbuff.
Voting will be up once CAP mods see this and approve the slate \o/
edit: I forgot, but I'm removing Adaptability from the slate too. There have been concerns about it being potentially too much of a buff, and I think they're well reasoned, so ya.
Alright, guys, the major buff we're working with has been decided on: +25 SpA; you can read more about the rationale behind why it was nominated here and why it was slated in the above post.
For minor buffs, here are the ones I want to slate for now:
- + 20 SpD
- + 10 Spe
- No Minor Buffs
- + Ice Beam
- + Sludge Bomb
- + Volt Switch
(explicitly putting No Minor Buffs on this preliminary slate because I think there was some miscommunication between the CAP moderators and I when the slate was actually put up, apologies for that. This should hopefully prevent that from happening this time)
Currently, I'm only slating five actual minor buffs because a lot of the other ones submitted would've been good had a different major buff been elected for. There's also a bit of overlap between two of the ones I'm slating, so maybe I'll knock one of them off come official slate time. Here's some reasoning behind them each:
- A significant increase in special bulk would let Voodoom utilize its quite useful defensive typing more effectively, giving it more chances to switch into Dragapult's Ghost-type attacks and even letting it tank a +1 Draco Meteor and OHKO in return. This sort of buff would also help against weaker special attackers like Slowking and Chromera.
- Pushing Voodoom to 120 base Speed is great because it lets it actually beat +6 Cawmodore. As it stands, Voodoom possesses the physical bulk to avoid an OHKO from +6 Bullet Punch, but what does that matter if you just get hit by Drain Punch instead? This sort of buff is relatively small overall because the offensive Pokemon that people mentioned for much smaller Speed boosts are super irrelevant, and this would really just give one extra form of offensive counterplay to Cawmodore.
- Ice Beam and Sludge Bomb both seek to do one thing: give Voodoom a good midground coverage move. Both of these options help it against a variety of Voodoom's checks like Jumbao, Tapu Fini, and Tomohawk, with Ice Beam even having great synergy with Thunderbolt at the cost of coverage for Fairy-types. I could very easily see people argue Sludge Bomb is "too much" in that it's a stronger Flash Cannon with a super useful secondary effect, but what you should keep in mind here is that Poison is not a good offensive typing, and locking into it would leave Voodoom easily exploited by common foes like Heatran, Equilibra, Garchomp, Dragapult, and many more.
- Volt Switch may seem like a major buff to some, but I'm including it here because it fits when looking at other fast wallbreakers, i.e. Kerfluffle, Tornadus-T, and Dragapult. This would only be seen on Choice item sets most likely and probably just replace Thunderbolt, mostly just giving Voodoom another move it can somewhat consistently use.
Like last time, I want to give the people a bit of time to discuss how these potential minor buffs would work alongside the major buff (+25 SpA) we opted for. You can argue for or against these options as well as support ones I didn't slate. I aim to finalize this slate by the end ofMay 13th, EST.
I've not had the chance to play with 25 SpA yet, but I think we're really not that far off viability atm. Hence I want to argue for a fairly small buff to be added to the slate. That is, Sucker Punch, which would allow Voodoom to increase its consistently against Dragapult on LO sets, without like, majorly buffing the mon overall outside of that.
That said, I am really leaning towards No Minor Buffs outside of that as like, the mon wasn't hugely far off before the buff process, and I don't think it needs a huge amount.
Volt Switch synergizes really well with Voodoom. Despite having two immunities and a 4x resistence, Voodoom's overall average bulk makes it difficult to bring in. The most common Psychic-type move is Future Sight after all, and most Electric-type move users have another move to threaten Voodoom against coming in. The best way to bring Pokemon like Voodoom in is with slow pivots and double switching. And the paragon slow pivots, the Slowtwins, love strong offensive Pokemon that can capitalize on Future Sight, and Voodoom fits the bill. Adding Volt Switch to Voodoom only improves this partnership, allowing it to pivot back to Slowking. Pivots love, well, other pivots. Volt Switch also enables Choice Scarf best, which is one way Voodoom can use Lightning Rod to come in and threaten Zeraora. I personally think Volt Switch is a way more significant buff than it appears at first glance.
+20 SpDef is really nice, because honestly just having another mon that can threaten Dragapult would be much appreciated. It also allows Voodoom to live one Defensive Tomohawk Hurricane, two 16+ Libra Earth Powers, two Slowking-Galar Sludge Bombs, etc. Basically, there are a number of nice calcs it hits to give Voodoom a little more breathing room to switch in. I would rather see +25 SpDef instead of +20, because 595 is a really, really ugly BST; just make it an even 600 imo.
The rest of the choices are kinda "eh" for me, I don't think Voodoom really needs that much more than what its already getting; Volt Switch and +20 SpD would just be a massive bump in Voodoom's ability to fit on teams.+10 Speed is cool tho, Cawmodore is a shithead.
I'm a big fan of this buff because we can really feel its effects without it necessarily pushing us over the edge. For one we can actually serve as a Pult check, able to live a Specs Draco from full even without any investment. Stealth Rock damage results in us being KO'd 25% of the time, but by taking out one point of Special Attack we can improve our odds at little cost.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 8 SpD Voodoom: 262-310 (81.6 - 96.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
40 EVs into SpDef is the cheapest way you live Specs Draco after a round of SR damage, and you're still able to snag the OHKO from full with neutral nature unboosted Dark Pulse.
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 40 SpD Voodoom: 255-300 (79.4 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
216 SpA Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 320-380 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Obviously you're not able to take two of these but if you can get in on a double-switch, rest assured you can live barring crits.
That extra boost to Special Defense also means Special Pult's other moves don't really do anything, especially thanks to Lightning Rod / Volt Absorb meaning it couldn't TWave/Thunder us even if it had such a move. +1 Fire Blast stings the most but is also pretty exploitable.
This also greatly improves our ability to stay healthy throughout a game, switch in more often, and go for riskier plays than we could otherwise. As an example, we're able to live 0 SpA Tomohawk Hurricanes from full, which means we can apply more pressure to it. That same 40 SpDef EV is great as we live SR damage + Hurricane. If it can't OHKO us anymore while we 2HKO back with TBolt, we can actually force a fair bit of progress.
Other special attackers, especially the weaker defensive ones, become much easier to play around as well.
(I too think +25 is better as my monkey brain likes nice round numbers, but to be completely objective the +20 boost is perfectly acceptable and does what we need to do, which ultimately is our goal here)
+ 10 Spe
Improving our Speed Tier is useful but I don't think Voodoom is cut out to be the Cawm answer we want it to be. It can live a +6 Bullet Punch but it really needs to be kept healthy in order to do so, and you need LO or Specs in order to secure a KO with Aura Sphere/Dark Pulse (having either of those should be a given though). It can serve as one but its not excellent at such a role.
The bigger gain is the ability to outpace Kerfluffle, which is really beneficial for us as Flash Cannon is going to severely threaten it. As long as its not Scarf, something which shouldn't be too difficult to deduce over time thanks to Hazard support, we now have the ability to outpace and force out or simply KO Kerf depending on our item and its current health. Blowing past Astro and leaving the 110 crowd doesn't hurt either.
I guess the more important question is, do we want Voodoom to be this fast and powerful, or should we keep it where it is?
No Minor Buffs
Ok sure
+ Ice Beam
Additional coverage options are always useful, and gaining access to Ice Beam would give Voodoom a nice boost to coverage. Thunderbolt however tends to get the job done for a lot of neutralities + resists to our STAB, and Flash Cannon is very helpful for dealing with Fairies. Without Cannon you're really lacking the ability to scare the Fairy types which are likely to pivot in, but forgo Thunderbolt and now you struggle versus Tomohawk, Tapu Fini, Corviknight, Arghonaut, Toxapex, etc., which isn't something you want to be doing. I'm sorry but I don't see this one. Even as a nice move for midground plays, our access Fighting/Dark/Electric/Steel already gets us so far, I don't see a practical reason to add Ice Beam in. That's just me though.
+ Sludge Bomb
It's certainly a lot better at beating Fairy types than Flash Cannon is, but Poison is also a good deal more exploitable with how popular Steels are. I think we're fine with Flash Cannon.
+ Volt Switch
This definitely ramps up Voodoom's viability as an offensive Pokemon, it should be no surprise to anyone that access to pivot moves generally make things better. Not only does Electric coverage compliment us very well, but we can preserve momentum while able to wear down our checks into range of our STAB moves. This is also way better of a midground than Ice Beam would be IMO. Part of me thinks this could be too good on Voodoom wrt what we're going for, as it opens the door to a whole new list of potential sets.
Would also like to share support for Sucker Punch. It helps us beat more Dragapult sets, and we really do need our offensive Dark type to actually threaten the best Ghost in the metagame in some fashion. Running a -Def/SpDef nature would be a downside but having the option to RK a weakened Specs/Scarf Dragapult is very helpful. I'm more partial to the SpDef boost as its uses are more widespread, but I don't think this is a bad route to take and TBH this was a move Voodoom really should have had sooner.
I've not had the chance to play with 25 SpA yet, but I think we're really not that far off viability atm. Hence I want to argue for a fairly small buff to be added to the slate. That is, Sucker Punch, which would allow Voodoom to increase its consistently against Dragapult on LO sets, without like, majorly buffing the mon overall outside of that.
That said, I am really leaning towards No Minor Buffs outside of that as like, the mon wasn't hugely far off before the buff process, and I don't think it needs a huge amount.
Im in the same boat. I thought it already had Sucker Punch and I saw it as a decent way to threaten a couple mons with Dragapult being the obvious standout when its running a LO. Apart from that I think I'll be voting for No Minor Buffs because they seem unnecessary and land in weird fields: extra coverage is not what this mon has trouble with, +speed and spdef and volt switch all come across as overkill. Its already bulky, fast, hits hard, and has great offensive potential. I like where it seems to be landing with +25 SpA alone but I'll update this if it turns out not so hot on the test server.
I think adding sucker punch is fine since it already has access to priority in Vacuum Wave, but other than that the SpA buff is pretty huge on its own and adding anything more would probably be gratuitous.
I'm personally unsure if Voodoom needs much more to be viable, 130 SpA is honesly pretty monstrous, but I would nevertheless support one of either Volt Switch or Sucker Punch should they go through. The former because it can cement Voodoom as a somewhat viable Choice user, particularly with Future Sight support, and the latter so that it can actually work like a proper Dark-type and threaten or revenge Dragapult after it has taken some chip.
Voodoom cannot fulfill its "fantasy" of checking Electric types as many of the tier's electric types outspeed and OHKO it, notably Zeraora. A very minor buff would be to replace Volt Absorb with Motor Drive. This would allow it to switch into a Volt Switch or Plasma Fists from Zeraora and immediately threaten to OHKO it, rather than being OHKO'd in return. This would also like, not really conflict with the mon much at all, aside from ig making NP sets a tad more threatening if you can manage to snag a +2 SpA and a +1 Spe.
Also please remove Volt Switch from the slate as like, I don't believe its at all necessary for Voodoom, and of the buffs above its the one most likely to leave us overshooting our goal.
I would like to brazenly slam Technician back on the table.
Technician is an ability that has seen some success in OU/CAP in the past. Stratagem used it for a bit to bolster its coverage and inflict massive tilt with Ancient Power boosts, but the standout Technician users in competitive Pokemon history are Scizor and Breloom. And one of the key components that made Technician good on these Pokemon were their high Attacking stat and STAB priority. And now Voodoom has the exact same two traits; 130 SpA vs 130 Atk, Vacuum Wave vs Mach/Bullet Punch. I think Technician could be a great supplemental buff to Voodoom. This would give Voodoom not necessarily an additional boost to its breaking power or a pivoting tool, like coverage or Volt Switch, but instead a better avenue for combating Zeraora and a new avenue to explore. Vacuum Wave still leaves Voodoom vulnerable to a lot of faster threats; Dragapult and Tornadus-T are the most immediate examples. But having the option to opt into Technician VW gives Voodoom another method of Speed control. I don't think Technician Vacuum Wave (or Snarl) are going to push Voodoom's viability any more than say Sludge Bomb or +20 SpDef will.
Yes, Technician was a major buff, but the idea I believe would be the minor buffs would then support Technician; its not hard to imagine a world where Technician wins the major buff and one of the minor buffs boosts Voodoom's Special Attack to make Technician a viable option.
As a side note, I support Motor Drive on the slate and also think Volt Switch should get axed.
- + 20 SpD
I don’t think this actually will help that much.
Even with the buff you wouldn’t switch Voodoom into Pult to scout a move, since it still 2HKOS, if you’ve scouted the move with another mon you’re either switching into a shadow ball, which doom can take or into a -2 Draco which is manageable even if not ideal.
the only situation where it is relevant is when both Pult and Doom come in clean or if Pult is sent in to revengekill.
If Doom is still at full health, Pult can’t stay in, if it took SR you’d only risk it in a bind as thirty percent chance to KO are still less than ideal for Pult.
If you come in for a revengekill Pult is forced to go for Draco as anything else would be a gamble, which makes a switch in pretty easy.
I kind of dislike this buff, because it also makes it harder to check Doom with the flying types, that could be able to deal with it if necessary.
- + 10 Spe
I think this one is fine even if not really that important. This would make doom an additional Cawm check, which is nice, until you realize that you’d have to play it extremely conservative to actually make use of it in this role. It’s mostly a nice addition that helps it compete with the likes of Torn T and Dragapult, which can fill the same role and at the same time doesn’t look like it would increase its actual power by a lot.
- + Ice Beam
I don’t see what this does that Thunderbolt or Flash Cannon can’t, other than making it less predictable, which I don’t like.
- + Sludge Bomb
This is a only slight power increase compared to Flash Cannon, because it hits all common fairies SE is stronger and has a nice poison chance. It improves the chance to 2hko Tomohawk with Specs and Stealth Rock by a lot compared to flash cannon, because of its increased power and additional poison chance.
Which basically means that a Specs set has more freedom in the fourth slot. This move itself doesn’t cause any issues so I think its
- + Volt Switch
This imo would be the biggest buff and I am of the opinion that it shouldn’t be slated.
I don’t think it would actually break Voodoom, but i believe it would overshoot our intended buff range, which imo is unnecessary.
With a pivoting move I think Voodoom would advance to be the second most powerful Special breaker in the tier.
It’s 4 Move coverage is unresisted it’s speed tier solid and it has enough starting power to not be forced to run Specs.
I have looked for Pokémon with at least comparable power (stats wise) and tried to see where it would land comparatively.
:Krilowat:
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Electric Terrain: 231-273 (57.1 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Tapu Koko Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 159-187 (39.3 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 144-169 (35.6 - 41.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Zapdos Thunder vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 160-189 (39.6 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 268-316 (66.3 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kerfluffle Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 213-252 (52.7 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kerfluffle Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Kerfluffle Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 180-213 (44.5 - 52.7%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Krilowatt Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 142-168 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 255-302 (63.1 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 172-203 (42.5 - 50.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 294-346 (72.7 - 85.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
has a lot less power and is entirely walled by S Tier threat Equilibra. While it is faster it is also less bulky.
similar initial power but doesn’t want to run a boosting item. It’s coverage is solid but not ideal and doesn’t favor pivoting sets.
Also is less bulky
Probably the most viable among all these rarely runs entirely offensive sets outside of rain, because of its amazing defensive utility and bad synergy with boosting items.
Regardless I think because of all of its traits it is definitely stronger than Voodoom would be, but it also doesn’t compete for a team slot in most cases.
In the same Tier as Zapdos and probably still stronger than Voodoom would be, but mostly because of its defensive utility. At the same time It’s actually a lot weaker, because it can’t reliably run boosting items has only one STAB move/two unreliable high power moves and it’s speed only matters in a few matchups.
This one is basically at the same power level as Voodoom with almost identical SpA, Speed and bulk as well similarly powerful STAB moves.
Now Keldeo is UU if at all in CAP.
So you’d think Voodoom might actually need a lot more. But the big difference is that Keldeo is entirely stonewalled by the best mon in the Tier, while Voodoom has SE STAB against it.
IMO these two would end up very similar. Doom is a little bulkier but slightly slower and has similar STAB option. Voodoom has better coverage though, more power and can run a different set with NP. It also has an easier time breaking past Slowking.
Krilowatt is a lot weaker and slower, but I think it has similarities through its A list coverage, which voodoom also has.
I think it’s notable that both mons are/would be volt users, that give the usual volt blockers a hard time switching in.
IMO Voodoom is probably the strongest Wallbreaker
Among these. It has the biggest damage output unresisted coverage and a really strong STAB combo, with really spammable typings.
As offensive pivots I think only Kerf and Torn can compare. And Torn has a lot less power and much more consistent switch ins to its Move combinations, while Kerf is stuck with one viable set that forces it to lock into a move.
Imo this means that doom, while generally having less defensive utility than the other two it would outclass both as an offensive pivot and wallbreaker.
- No Minor Buffs
My preferred option at the moment.
I also want to add that we should thoroughly check Nasty Plot. I don’t think it breaks Voodoom as there’s some opportunity cost to sacrificing the 4th moveslot, as well as the issue of finding a save turn to set up, although that has significantly been improved on with the additional SpA.
But after a Nasty Plot it basically can plough through a lot of teams, if the checks have been slightly weakened.
For reference.
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 277-326 (70.3 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 494-582 (125.3 - 147.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 203-239 (49 - 57.7%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Voodoom Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tomohawk: 304-359 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Technician definitely fits a Minor Buff as Voodoom's breaking power is not really affected. Snarl hits just barely harder than Pulse and does come with the SpA drop, but you also sacrifice the flinch chance and 100% accuracy. Vacuum Wave is the real kicker. 60 BP VWaves are quite good now that our attacking stat is respectable, and lets Doom actually pose a threat to the multitude of Pokemon that outpace it. You would have to drop valuable coverage in order to benefit from VWave so I don't think this is too overbearing. Nasty Plot w/ priority is also really scary and really stupid.
Motor Drive does way more to punish Electric moves than our other two abilities, I worry that Nasty Plot might make such an ability too strong. That would require two predictions to pull off reliably so in a sense it is not super broken, but would be a substantial boost in viability.
Right now I'm leaning the most towards Sucker Punch, it's a nice inclusion that gives us additional offensive utility against faster threats, but isn't helpful at all with breaking through walls, which is the primary reason you'd want to use Voodoom. As a result running it means you have to give up a moveslot, and you don't want to give up any of your 4 attacking moves unless you have a seriously good reason to do so.
- + 20 SpD
- + 10 Spe
- No Minor Buffs
- + Sludge Bomb
- + Sucker Punch
This will end up being the official slate for minor buffs! Ice Beam was removed mostly for the argument of "it doesn't add anything useful," while Volt Switch is getting dropped because of a decent amount of opposition despite my reluctance to do so. Added Sucker Punch because it's been pretty widely supported.
Apologies for the delay; COVID vaccine had me fucked last night, and I wasn't able to really get into the groove of things until later today.
Latios
Nidoking
Volkraken
Kartana
Hydrei
Kerfluffle
for me, Voodoom should fit between these two. it has the qualities of both. that means it should hit slightly weaker also. so this is why im proposing a SPA increase of 25.
