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Defensive sets are real nice atm also if you run Choice Scarf you can revenge kill random stuff and get surprise OHKOs. BUT what makes Xerneas A+ is the fact we are allowing a dumbass magnet to trap the only good Steel-type in the tier (NDM) so if your opponent isn't running Blissey the counterplay is that fat X button on the top right.
Take this as a grain of salt since I'm no Ubers Expert (I don't even play this tier frequently) but from what I've seen, TeleSight has been receiving some usage lately (I think I've saw a replay w Solgaleo FuturePort and Eternatus Dragon Tail in the same team winning but I'm too lazy to find it).
Hope this helps even tho I'd probably wait until a knowledgeable Ubers person answers this.
gdarm is p much better than caly i in almost every regard, the extra speed gdarm has is particularly relevant to let it outspeed stuff like hooh, ndm, yveltal, groudon, eternatus (with scarf) etc. Gdarm also has better coverage with rock slide and flare blitz, and also has u turn for momentum. The extra bulk caly-i has is not useful considering its SR weakness and its horrible defensive typing.
As for why gdarm is good in it of itself, Lasen’s post explains it succinctly.
As a big supporter of Caly-Ice, I do agree that a lot of these things are true. You can however circumvent the weaknesses to hazards with HDB and that doesn't hinder Calyrex Ice's ability to be threatening. I think its positive leaning matchup against Webs is a big advantage that it has over G-Darm but other than that U-Turn on an Ice Type in SS-Ubers along with its synergy with Magnezone 100% earns Darm its A+ ranking.
And while I do think if it existed by itself, Caly-I probably would be A- or in A+ with Darm, it uniquely is one of the few Ubers with a genuine opportunity cost beyond the team slot that it takes up. Running it means you cannot run Calyrex-S, which while I have my own issues with Calyrex-S is something to consider when ranking. B+ is probably where it belongs.
i know this sounds stupid and absurd but hear me out guys:
this guy is insane i have two sets that i want to share one of them is ofc the bellydrum set now you may think that in a matagame with large power levels such as ubers would not allow azumarill to setup at all however it is pretty much the contrary azumarill has an amazing defensive typing allowing it to set up on the face of the common eternatus sets used on balanced and bulky offense team which are by far the most successful ones it also sets up on the common yveltals used on these teams and with the high usage of these mons the setup oppurtunities are not limited at all once it does get a belly drum which as i said is not hard azumarill becomes a force to reckon with as it becomes an amazing breaker
BEHOLD THE POWER OF AZUMARILL:
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 240 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 745-877 (154.8 - 182.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 624-735 (156.7 - 184.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 258-304 (64.8 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 72 HP / 8 Def Yveltal: 330-388 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+5 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Landorus-Therian: 438-516 (114.6 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 816-960 (195.2 - 229.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
NOBODY IS PERFECT:
i ofc did test azumarill on ladder and it does have some issues like u only do 60 percent max to max defense groudon can do shit vs the dragons of ubers except the usual eternatus set only beats choiced ogre if it is low and the fact that sludgebomb eternatus is auto game over however with all these problems it still is imho worthy of being a good part of a HO team it can do some very weird stuff that can be problematic for the opponent like chipping their groudon which can really annoying for the opponent so maybe not very high but it surely deserves a spot especially since xatu and hydriegon have a spot THE OTHER FORM OF THE MOUSE: azumarill can also run a sort of perish trap set its quite more niche but the main purpose is indeed to try and trap the normal defensive mons that u see on stall / balance it might seem as tho its pretty gimmick as the offensive mons of the meta can use this as an opputunity to set up but whirlpool chip is really annoying for some offensive mons and u can always force ur opponents into mindgames with encore protect can make it so that u actually get to know the next move of the choiced mon and also spreading more chip on thier wincon it can also provide a semi check to cm ogre which is clutch but yeah this set is way more niche than the other one THE POWER OF AZU IN ACTION: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1482276829-gb76kxdtp2ldas1zbcfawlfxr3su9y6pw https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1483365609-90a5kah43ndwbnejefzbu4hrau0ay7rpw https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1483511054-jsolc7z0rp2pjxw4vr2drkhriq9docmpw https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1483454216-cp61t1jo3zd41hefnw5xsi2ge5oszn3pw THE SETS :
Azumarill @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Huge Power
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Aqua Jet
- Play Rough
- Knock Off
Azumarill @ Leftovers
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlpool
- Perish Song
- Protect
- Rest/encore
I'd like to make a few noms after getting further grasp on the metagame and watching the most recent team tour matches.
Kyogre from A+ to S-
Kyogre definitely deserves to be alongside Groudon at S-, imo. It's a highly valuable mon currently, being a great win condition in many ways. It can be used to paralyze shared checks for teammates with TW sets, PP stalling with Rest/Block/etc variants, wallbreaking with Specs/Offensive CM or cleaning with Scarf.
On top of that, it brings a much needed defensive presence for balanced teams, being a check to Darm (that doesn't get trapped), offensive NDM and, if running Rest, a status absorber.
Anyway, I don't feel like I need to go through all that Kyogre does, but fact is that you can make it fit whatever role you want for your team and it's going to perform effectively. Also, Dracovish teams are great right now mostly because of rain support/Kyogre sharing checks with it.
Weavile from B to B+
Dark/Ice coverage and great speed makes Weavile extremely threatening to most standard team structures (Yveltal, Etern, Caly, NDM, +2) and is just overall really hard to switch into, even when unboosted. It also checks 3 of the current S-Rank mons and has a great matchup against offensive teams which generally have to rely on NDM to beat it.
It has very welcomed item versatility, being able to run Boots, Wide Lens or Sash (which doesn't make it particularly more threatening, but feels nice when trying to build with it so you can adapt it to your team's needs).
I recognize it's not an easy mon to fit on a team, but I believe a rise to B+ is fair and well deserved.
Caly-I from B+ to B/B-
It's just really bad outside of TR teams lol. It may have interesting defensive niche but let's be real, this thing doesn't belong at a rank with Magnezone and Dracovish which are much more valuable, threatening and therefore, more viable.
I really have to ask something, why do people think Dracovish is B+?
He isn't bulky or fast, he hits like a truck and can go pretty good on Trick Room teams but I mean. We got Calyrex Shadow, Kyorge, Dusk Mane, Groudon and so many others that also hit like a truck but are either fast or bulky.
Just to clarify I think it can do things but I don't see that many uses for it.
I really have to ask something, why do people think Dracovish is B+?
He isn't bulky or fast, he hits like a truck and can go pretty good on Trick Room teams but I mean. We got Calyrex Shadow, Kyorge, Dusk Mane, Groudon and so many others that also hit like a truck but are either fast or bulky.
Just to clarify I think it can do things but I don't see that many uses for it.
Trucks wish they hit like a Dracovish. Even Specs Kyogre's full HP Water Spout isnt as poweful as Dracovish in the rain. Essentially, Dracovish is the most quintisential Wallbreaker in the tier, and if you're loading a team on the fatter side of the meta, every single game you're praying that you dont have to deal with a Dracovish. There are so many things that it can come in on and force out, and if something has to switch into it in the rain that isnt literally full HP Eternatus, that something is dying.
It might be worth dropping to B or so, but its definitely not a bad mon.
Trucks wish they hit like a Dracovish. Even Specs Kyogre's full HP Water Spout isnt as poweful as Dracovish in the rain. Essentially, Dracovish is the most quintisential Wallbreaker in the tier, and if you're loading a team on the fatter side of the meta, every single game you're praying that you dont have to deal with a Dracovish. There are so many things that it can come in on and force out, and if something has to switch into it in the rain that isnt literally full HP Eternatus, that something is dying.
It might be worth dropping to B or so, but its definitely not a bad mon.
I see, thank you for answering my question. I feel maybe B or B- but still a solid dangerous threat.
I never thought it was bad, I more or less thought it was more specific compared to other pokemon that are less polarized but still get extremely good damage.
I can see more value in Dracovish now that I take a better look at it.
Nominating base form kyurem to D rank because it is ubers by tiering but completely outclassed by black and white kyurem due to their higher attacks. It is also outclassed by eternatus as a pressure user.
A+ -> S- (below Groudon)
I think in the current meta kyogre is on par with groudon and above other A+ threats, there is simply nothing that can check all of Kyogres sets and so many of these sets are good right now! Specs, Sub CM, CM rest roar, CM resto chesto, CM 3 attacks, Scarf (dont use scarf), etc. It also is one of the few mons thats a solid swtichin to Darm G. Overall its multitude of potent offensive sets along with its defensive utility makes it deserving of S- in my opinion.
A+ -> A (below Ferro)
It's strong and can break a lot of teams, but more teams are prepped for it and its hard to build good teams with.
A -> A- (below zekrom)
Lando-T's pretty mid, the marsh/kyogre/lando teams are strong but Lando-T consistently loses to stuff it's supposed to beat, and offensive sets are univable especially compared to the other grounds in the tier.
B+ -> B
Super matchup reliant, and many people have been running shed shell dusk mane or iron defense bp ferro recently. Belongs in B with the other matchup fish mons (webbers, ditto, etc.)
B -> B+
Weavile is a defining mon on the best HO's this generation. Both on my weavile webs and Lunala's Aero HO. It also has a defined niche on other archetypes and thus is warranted to be ranked above the web setters themselves. In addition to the SD sets, Band Beat Up has shown great potential as seen in this game where it ohko's a Kyogre.
B- -> C
Spikes HO sucks and basically every team has a tspike absorber. On ho u want rocks, webs or screens on your "lead" and this has none. Should be below aero and grimsnarl. HO's with double leads also arent viable.
The following mons should not be ranked lmao, i dont care that some tour player used it one time in a live tour, they are misleading for new players:
Thundurus Therian, Suicune, Abomasnow, Arctozolt
Mini VR update for before open! We voted on everything brought up in the thread as well as some internal nominations, voting sheet is here.
Rises: A+ --> S- B --> B+ C+ --> B- B- --> B B- --> B
Drops: B+ --> B- A+ --> A B+ --> B + C --> UR + C- --> UR B --> B-
No Change: Stays UR Stays B+ Stays A Stays B- Stays D Stays B Stays A+
If there's any questions about the changes ask away, either here for the first few days or in the metagame discussion thread if you're wondering about placements later or what the mons do / how to make them work.
e: regular kyurem was added to D rank I just forgot when it was made an uber
If you ever told me in gen 7 that Kyogre and Groudon would be ranked in the same VR list, I would laugh in your face.
Man it feels like a gen 3 throwback huh? Crazy man
Mini VR update for before open! We voted on everything brought up in the thread as well as some internal nominations, voting sheet is here.
Rises: A+ --> S- B --> B+ C+ --> B- B- --> B B- --> B
Drops: B+ --> B- A+ --> A B+ --> B + C --> UR + C- --> UR B --> B-
No Change: Stays UR Stays B+ Stays A Stays B- Stays D Stays B Stays A+
If there's any questions about the changes ask away, either here for the first few days or in the metagame discussion thread if you're wondering about placements later or what the mons do / how to make them work.
e: regular kyurem was added to D rank I just forgot when it was made an uber
Zamazenta-C is one of the only actual answers to offensive Yveltal, with even Eternatus getting OHKO'd after a boost. Its incredibly bulky and a Trick absorber meaning it can even switch into Caly-S without much drawback and heal up later on Dusk Mane or Yveltal since it hard counters almost every set those run aside from offensive with Earthquake on NDM and Heat Wave Yveltal, the latter of which is almost non-existent. It soft checks a ton of things and is a steel type that doesn't lose to Ferrothorn 1v1 which is a good benefit. It's just a solid wall but nothing too spectacular due to its power. Weavile being on the rise also helps it, because aside from Magearna who's as close to unviable as you can get while not being so Zamazenta is the only other resist to its stabs.
I would like to nominate the order of A+ now be (Marshadow/Xerneas) Zygarde-Complete Ho-Oh from most to least, where I think Marshadow and Xerneas are really about the same. Xerneas is way better with Weavile and Marshadow everywhere, and Marshadow is so good right now. Zygarde-C is worst due to Darm and Weavile usage way up. Ho-Oh must decide between more SpDef to be a reliable Caly-S pivot and more Def to consistently switch into Marsh and Weavile.
Weavile -> B+ to A-
Super self-explantory. Watch any game.
Aero -> B- to B
Excadrill -> C to B
Lando-I -> B to B-
The first two leads are just as good as Shuckle/Slurpuff and reliably have a niche in setting up Rocks with unique removal, which is a huge deal. Drill especially has seen new usage in the recent ULT and is the best counter lead to opposing HO, really only losing to Froslass and having 50/50 opportunities at worst with all other main ones. Aero stays good and is the clear best mon if your goal is simply "get rocks, deny opposing rocks," promoting sash spam HO the best. Lando-I, because it lacks the removal option and feels like a worse Aero when it cannot click Explosion, should be lower.
Another UPL, another VR thread. You know the drills, so lemme start posting.
A- -> A+(Behind Ho-oh)
That A- ranking was a valid one before people discovered the Scale Shot set, and now Zekrom is among the tier's scariest once again. Multiple replays showcasing its talents, Me vs Aberforth among it's highlights and more, and i think it's more than deserving of a rise to atleast A.
A to A-(Behind Rayquaza)
Between Zekrom adopting a set that beats it with ease, Groudons often running sets like Toxic, Twave SD, among others, this pokemon simply doesn't cut it as an A ranker. It's good dont get me wrong, and it's offensive uses are still good, it's just not where it wants to be in the tier rn.
B+ to A- (Ahead of Rayquaza)
Copying len's post, this mon is wickedly popular and immensely dangerous. Not much to say, peep damn near any replay and look back at Weavile, mon is dangerous.
B to B+
Very slept on pick, between it's incredible chipping capabilities and annoyances of having non xerneas/clefable switchins, with a massive slew of moves to pick from after poltergeist/sneak/dtail, moves like defog, magic coat, wisp stone edge twave and destiny bond are all potential moves to use and i think can rise with it's offensive defensive utility and good HO matchup as seen with Me vs Lotiasite
D to C+
It's the TR for Overheat. Seriously this set is mad dangerous considering how important NDM is and its pairing with Xerneas is a devastating good combination. TJ used it vs me in UPL and while it never came in because he won with xerneas before it even could, yeah it 6-0d me as soon as it did without having a dusk mane to my name, which while comical does represent how threatening this mon is when an NDM is removed. C+ may be a bit of a jump but i'd use Kyurem-Black over all the things below it, and is a valued member of HO's roster of dangers.
B- to B/B+
This pokemon got used ALOT this UPL and has caused a flame war between multiple people of Clefable or Xerneas, which sucks more at their job? Xerneas has better stats but it's vulnerability to spikes and chip damage, alongside unreliable recovery holds it back in alot of its roles. Clefable takes all these problems away in exchange for much worse stats across the board, but still does its job in checking Yveltal and Zygarde, while Marshadow and Zekrom are annoyed by it. Regardless of anyone's stance on OU's 2nd favorite it's usage and success calls for its rise. FatFighter2 watch and learn boy.
B-/B to B+
HO's finest have arrived to remind people that they are never safe. HO in general has been slowly becoming even more powerful with more sets like sub Eternatus, TR43 Kyurem-Black, Weavile, Quick Claw Kyogre procking 4 times in a row vs SiTum (on god ban that item) Life Orb Zygod, Special Taunt Yveltal's return, as well as lower end picks like Garchomp, Cloyster, Ditto and Urshifu. I'm not considering Excadrill and Slurpuff on the same level as these 2, though you can send Excadrill up to B- i guess.
B- to C+
Not deserving it's ranking, i much prefer tangrowth to be annoying as opposed to this pokemon's generally middling results outside of very specific matchups vs specifics sets on specific mons. Too niche for the B ranks i feel
C to C-
Speaking of too niche, im amazed we let this mon sit 2 ranks above D just for future port honestly. It's actually kinda interesting offensively on HO aswell as being an ok anti webs pick, so im not sending it to D rank, but let's not act like this pokemon is remotely good enough to be next to Palkia and Garchomp.
B- to C+ (sorry fc)
Not good enough im sorry. Between being unable to use Iron Head because of it always turning into Behemoth Bash, the garbage 8 PP move that makes you flop vs Eternatus, Ho-oh's continued dominance, kyogre and groudon aswell, and it's inability to hold an item of any use makes its applications more limited than you'd like it to be. Countering Yveltal is nice, and it's Weavile matchup keeps it relevant, overall i don't find it consistent enough for B ranks.
While not putting in the effort for the orders of S to A-, ill drop it here (Yes idt Xerneas deserves A+ and no im not explaining myself)
nomming obstagoon up to C- because it certainly has more use than some other shittmons like mew
outside of being a TR magnet for me its at least viable
also don’t listen to LBN’s opinions on fairies clef cant even beat dd zyg on the switch cause its too weak and frail lol
+2 224 Atk Zygarde-Complete Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 211-249 (53.5 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 206-246 (57 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (doesn’t 2hko after zyg transforms)
With the build above, I can typically sweep at least half of a team, and that's while slacking on roost and dragon dance usage due to being an overly aggressive player, it can also counter the following mons:
NDM
Marshadow (OHKO Dual Wingbeat before it can move and prior to any buffs, my go-to marshadow slaughterer)
Zekrom
Buzzwole
Magnezone
Toxapex
Urshifu Single-Strike
Heatran
Tyranitar
Zamazenta-Crowned
Zarude
...and after that we are getting into C-ranked mons, basically if you can get your swords dances up, or have a type advantage, Dragonite is great, and if you don't, dragonite is still a great option to switch over to for tanking and dishing out hella damage, with heavy duty boots, and roost, only problem is dragon and ice types but most people use them so most people also have a dragon-type hard counter on their team.
With the build above, I can typically sweep at least half of a team, and that's while slacking on roost and dragon dance usage due to being an overly aggressive player, it can also counter the following mons:
NDM
Marshadow (OHKO Dual Wingbeat before it can move and prior to any buffs, my go-to marshadow slaughterer)
Zekrom
Buzzwole
Magnezone
Toxapex
Urshifu Single-Strike
Heatran
Tyranitar
Zamazenta-Crowned
Zarude
...and after that we are getting into C-ranked mons, basically if you can get your swords dances up, or have a type advantage, Dragonite is great, and if you don't, dragonite is still a great option to switch over to for tanking and dishing out hella damage, with heavy duty boots, and roost, only problem is dragon and ice types but most people use them so most people also have a dragon-type hard counter on their team.
dragonite’s cool and all, but there’s these two guys, dunno if you heard about them, they’re called Rayquaza and Zekrom. and Not to be a total buzzkill but but they pretty much do Everything Better Than Dragonite. Both of them are Naturally Faster, Stronger, and Rayquaza even has Better Flying Stab. Zekrom has that nice physical bulk so that it isnt sniped by Ice Shard Weavile if at high enough HP, along with an electric resist so it actually beats Dusk Mane, unlike Dragonite. So yeah, tough luck there
dragonite’s cool and all, but there’s these two guys, dunno if you heard about them, they’re called Rayquaza and Zekrom. and Not to be a total buzzkill but but they pretty much do Everything Better Than Dragonite. Both of them are Naturally Faster, Stronger, and Rayquaza even has Better Flying Stab. Zekrom has that nice physical bulk so that it isnt sniped by Ice Shard Weavile if at high enough HP, along with an electric resist so it actually beats Dusk Mane, unlike Dragonite. So yeah, tough luck there
I either sweep 2-3 mons with it, or either kill one thing or grievously injure one mon with it before it dies, but the second one, especially the latter, is more frequent, probably because, once again, I slack on dragon dances
I either sweep 2-3 mons with it, or either kill one thing or grievously injure one mon with it before it dies, but the second one, especially the latter, is more frequent, probably because, once again, I slack on dragon dances
You have Scarf Rayquaza with Dragon Dance? No offence but that's an awful addition to the team. Rayquaza isn't bulky enough to live Knock Off after chip damage, if that's your plan to keep Dragon Dance. Also have two Dragon/Flying types in team is just stacking weaknesses, especially with Weavile being so prominent
Zek has proven to be one of the best wallbreakers of the game, its Mixed set is almost always guarantee to force progress. Not to mention a very restricted number of Pokemon can really switch into it without being scared by a possible tech (yes, I'm speaking of Fire Weather Ball for Ferrothorn). In my opinion, I wouldn't say Zekrom has the power to be ranked A+ (like LBN suggested), but it definitely needs to be ranked higher than that underestimated A-.
B+ -> Top of A-
Simply said: Dark / Ice typing is broken in SS Ubers. It has been seen multiple times that whether it be a Choice Band or a Swords Dance set, Weavile is a terrifying threat. Choose the wrong switch-in, and it faints (and Weavile isn't crippled by its Speed, as opposed to Dracovish). Not much else to say, this thing is scary as hell, on preview as well as in-game.
B- -> B+
Aerodactyl is in my opinion one of the best - if not the best - suicide lead of this metagame. Great Speed tier, great movepool for its job, has a positive or at least neutral matchup against most leads, and sole lead that can setup Tailwind reliably. It also can pressure Yveltal and Ho-Oh and Pressure as a lead is a fantastic ability to drain PPs against the likes of Sunsteel NDM, Calyrex and Eternatus.
Kyogre from A+ to S-
Weavile from B to B+
Caly-I from B+ to B/B-
A+ -> A (below Ferro)
A -> A- (below zekrom)
B+ -> B
B- -> C
C+ --> B-
B- --> B
B- --> B
+ 
C --> UR
+ 
C- --> UR
B --> B-
Stays UR
Stays B+
Stays D
Stays B
Stays A+
