Cresselia (Trick) +

[Elevator Music]

Ok this is my first C+C thread and I'm really nervous. EDIT- I didn't know Jumpman made this set so credit to him because it's brilliant. Feel free to chime in on anything you guys want changed.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/cresselia

[SET]
name: TrickScarf
move 1: Trick
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Moonlight
move 4: Reflect / Psychic
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 136 Def / 120 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With Trick and Choice Scarf, Cresselia does a fine job at countering or crippling heavy threats like Salamence, Lucario, and Gyarados. The extra Speed from Choice Scarf allows Cresselia to outspeed Salamence without a Dragon Dance, meaning she can come in and Ice Beam Salamence, which will always OHKO with Stealth Rock down. This allows Cresselia to beat Chocie Band Salamence, which Scarf-less variants cannot do for fear of being 2HKOed by Outrage. Lucario is a little bit more difficult, as if Cresselia switches in on Swords Dance, Crunch followed by ExtremeSpeed from Jolly Lucario will always 2HKO with Stealth Rock support (Adamant Lucario will always 2HKO regardless of Stealth Rock support). While Cresselia cannot always beat Lucario, it can cripple it by giving it Choice Scarf, severely reducing Lucario's sweeping capabilities.</p>

<p>Reflect allows Cresselia to protect itself against the Pursuiters that commonly come in on her, such as Choice Band Tyranitar and Heracross. If they are not a problem, feel free to run Psychic over Reflect for the ability to beat more threats. Moonlight can be used before and after Tricking Choice Scarf, as it is helpful to stall out Outrages. Thunder Wave can be used in conjunction with Trick, paralyzing the pokemon that has recieved the Choice Scarf, and can be used over Reflect or Psychic.</p>

 

[Stellar]

[SET]
name: TrickScarf
move 1: Trick
move 2: Ice Beam
move 3: Moonlight
move 4: Reflect / Psychic
item: Choice Scarf
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Choice Scarf and Trick allow Cresselia to beat some threats she had trouble with previously, mainly Shaymin-S. Ice Beam allows Cresselia to OHKO Shaymin-S after factoring in Stealth Rock damage. Be wary of Modest Choice Scarf Shaymin-s however, as if Cresselia gets hit by Seed Flare's SpDef drop on the switch-in there is a chance she will get 2HKOed. Smart opponents may see the lack of Leftovers recovery on Cresselia and realize that she is running Choice Scarf, so be careful. Cresselia also easily counters most Salamence, being able to come in on any of its moves and threaten a OHKO with Stealth Rock down, while Salamence cannot OHKO back. With this set, she is also able to counter Choice Band Salamence, which the standard set cannot do.</p>

<p>When Cresselia is done with its Choice Scarf, it can Trick it onto a Pokemon that could otherwise set up on it, like opposing Calm Mind Cresselia, CurseLax, and Calm Mind Suicune, crippling them for the rest of the match.</p>

<p>Reflect allows Cresselia to protect itself against the Pursuiters that commonly come in on her, such as Choice Band Tyranitar and Heracross. If they are not a problem, feel free to run Psychic over Reflect for the ability to beat more threats. Moonlight can be used before and after Tricking Choice Scarf, as it is helpful to stall out Outrages.</p>

<p>The EVs allow Cresselia to outspeed Timid Shaymin-S. It may be tempting to only outspeed Modest Shaymin-s, but Cresselia will lose the ability to counter it reliably, due to the risk of being 2HKOd by Seed Flare if it drops Special Defense or if Air Slashes flinches. It should be noted that Cresselia doesn't outspeed anything of importance between those two speeds and she will still outspeed things like Timid Gengar. However, Gengar is commonly Scarfed and will beat Cresselia with Shadow Ball, especially if Cresselia lacks Psychic.</p>

Cresselia is always female, so she > it. Shaymin-S. Just some other errors in there too.

I would suggest using Thunder Wave. Trick Choice Scarf and then paralyzing the opponent is a good strategy that I have seen used successfully. Just slash it in the third slot.

 

[Elevator Music]

Thanks Stellar. Made all those changes and added in a brief mention of Thunder Wave. Also changed SpDef --> Special Defense because Venom told me to.

 

[Jumpman16]

yes, i made the set, and am quoting it right now because i put a bit of thought into it:

Cresselia@Choice Scarf
EVs: 252HP/136Def/120Spe
Nature: Bold
~ Trick
~ Ice Beam
~ Reflect
~ Moonlight

This Cresselia is pretty much a 100% counter to both standard Yachechomp and Skymin, a little less in the case of Skymin but still. 120 Speed EVs gives Cresselia 354 Speed with a Choice Scarf, enough to get all Modest Skymin by one point (354 vs. 353), 136 Def is a Magic Defense point and HP is Maxed. Cress does 79% minimim to Shaymin with Ice Beam, more than enough with everybody's "Stealth Rock" argument.

As for Garchomp, faster speed and the threat of Trick is enough to seriously hamper it. Switch into SD? Ice Beam 2HKOes "easy" (I am aware of Sand Veil). Switch into Earthquake? Cress is free to do whatever, obviously (Ice Beam or Reflect are recommended, the latter for Tyranitar or any other Pursuiters that want to switch in) Switch into Outrage? Cresselia can literally use any of her four moves: faster Trick to permanently cripple the threat of Yache Chomp (and Trick that onto something else later); faster Ice Beam for a faster at-least-2HKO without being 2HKOed by Outrage including the one it took on the switch; faster Reflect and switch out with a decent HP (~45%), or just Moonlight and get out of there with like 75% HP. Switching into Fire Fang is even easier to deal with, IB or Reflect are fine here cause as with EQ Chomp probably isn't staying in.

regardless, a few things outside of grammar

Be careful of Modest Choice Scarf Shaymin-s however, as if you get hit by Seed Flare's SpDef drop on the switchin there is a chance you will get 2HKOd.

i made my "post damage calculations" announcement for a reason...further, 10.9% of skymin had choice scarf last month, which I point out not just to say that's kind of a low number but also to point out that almost 60% of the time it had leftovers or life orb which indicate its item very, very often with SR and sand prevalence

<p>The EVs allow Cresselia to outspeed Timid Shaymin-s. You may be tempted to only outspeed Modest Shaymin-s, but you will lose the ability to counter it reliably if you do, as you are at risk of being 2HKOd from Seed Flare if the first drops your Special Defense or from being flinched. It should be noted that you don't outspeed anything of importance between those two Speeds though, and you will still outspeed things like Timid Gengar. However, Gengar is commonly Scarfed and with Scarf will beat you anyways.

besides the fact that cresselia and gengar will virtually never have anything to do with each other in battle except when scarf gengar comes in to [do whatever] which outspeeds all cress anyway, doesn't the fact that there's not much in between 390 and 354 kind of indicate that it isn't worth it to go that high? especially when you realize that cresselia's a sketchy skymin counter to begin with (as i stated in my original post, it's a better garchomp counter for when we get to stage 3, which i actually can't wait for) since it doesn't resist either stab move, so going that high is kind of overspecialization? combating salamence and even lucario is more important according to the usage statistics, as both were used more than skymin (#3, #7 and #10 respectively).

 

[Stellar]

Just wanted to correct myself. I meant to say fourth slot, sorry. But after reconsideration, it should probably just be mentioned in set comments rather than having its own space on the set.

 

[Elevator Music]

yes, i made the set, and am quoting it right now because i put a bit of thought into it:

OK. Since this is your set, just pull the plug on this whenever, because I don't want to take away from your work.

i made my "post damage calculations" announcement for a reason...further, 10.9% of skymin had choice scarf last month, which I point out not just to say that's kind of a low number but also to point out that almost 60% of the time it had leftovers or life orb which indicate its item very, very often with SR and sand prevalence

I read your announcement (edit- just realized what exactly you meant by that... <_< I'll post the calc when I get back.) and I know that Choice Scarf Shaymin is rare. I figured I should mention it. If you think that sentence should be left out that's fine though.

EDIT2- Errgh... why did I think Seed Flare had 100 base power? Uggh that matters so much that it guarentees even Timid will 2HKO with a drop. I thought it had 100 base power... (in which Timid has a max of 33.1%, while Modest does 30.41%-36.04%) which is why I even put that there in the first place and specified Modest. Sorry Jump. Whoo way to make myself look like an idiot!

besides the fact that cresselia and gengar will virtually never have anything to do with each other in battle except when scarf gengar comes in to [do whatever] which outspeeds all cress anyway, doesn't the fact that there's not much in between 390 and 354 kind of indicate that it isn't worth it to go that high? especially when you realize that cresselia's a sketchy skymin counter to begin with (as i stated in my original post, it's a better garchomp counter for when we get to stage 3, which i actually can't wait for) since it doesn't resist either stab move, so going that high is kind of overspecialization? combating salamence and even lucario is more important according to the usage statistics, as both were used more than skymin (#3, #7 and #10 respectively).

Unless your reasoning for going with that much Speed on Cress is just using leftovers EVs after getting magic Defense number, there is really no point in running just enough Speed to get by Modest Shaymin-s since the majority of them are Timid and will (more than likely) beat you anyways. I agree that combatting Salamence is probably a better thing to do with the set though.



Stellar I'll change that I guess.

 

[Legacy Raider]

If you're running 216 EVs to outspeed Timid Skymin, then why don't you just invest an extra 16 EVs to be able to outspeed base 130s and avoid Aerodactyl's and Crobat's Taunts?

Otherwise a very solid set. I'm assuming it is meant as a mid-game pokemon rather than a lead, because otherwise I think Uxie outclasses it with access to Stealth Rock, Yawn and U-Turn, as well as a higher base Speed.

 

[Elevator Music]

Uggh read the edit(s) two posts up. I thought Seed Flare had 100 Base Power for some reason which completely messes up the calcs.

Regardless, changed the wording there to actually show that ScarSkymin is rare. Also thought about just taking out the part about Gengar, since Jump is right and there really is no time in battle where Cress should be fighting Gengar unless it's a ScarfGar in which case she still loses.

I'm actually all together thinking about just scrapping the last paragraph and adding in maybe a different spread for maybe something like the Base 100s (Mence) since Jump is right again how that IS more important. I'd probably end up just using that as the main spread and mentioning the current one under Set Comments (or the EV section of the analysis?). Thoughts on this?

@Legacy Raider- You are correct in assuming it's more of a mid-game pokemon.

 

[Imran]

I don't see why you can't just lump the 2nd Paragraph on the end of the first one. I read it and it seems to flow well. It just looks a little silly on it's own, I don't know.

You might want to point out in set comments that Psychic is mainly for Heracross (You mention Gengar later), who think they can beat her. Nice Write-Up ^^

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I would also note that Rest is another option due to Moonlight's abysmal PP. A Calm nature is also a nice option with getting more mileage out of it and it can survive more Shadow Balls from Rotom. Another option for the fourth slot is Toxic as it can catch and slowly kill Ttar if it tries to switch in sneakily.

 

[Jumpman16]

I agree that combatting Salamence is probably a better thing to do with the set though.

if you agree about this then why do you still have 216 Speed EVs? dropping down to 354 Scarf Speed in favor of 120 Def EVs would allow Cress to better deal with pokemon that are literally more threatening in Salamence and Lucario

 

[Elevator Music]

I hadn't gotten around to changing the set since I was gone all yesterday and most of Monday.

It'll be changed shortly.

EDIT- However I still don't see the merit in 354 Speed, as I feel that that's really just as bad as 390. You're only doing it for Modest Shaymin-S, who much more commonly runs Timid. I can see the merit in running more Defense (and not 390 Speed), but why can't she just use enough EVs to outspeed something like Base 105s (or 110s or 100s or better yet 102s)?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

In October only 21.0% of Sky Form Shaymins had Modest, so I don't think aiming for 354 will be enough.

 

[Caelum]

First off, I'm partially posting because EVERY time I've seen Trick Cresselia it's running 216 Speed EVs which is just bad (I can tell by the damage output by my team). Maybe this is a product of this not being on site or maybe it's a product of that it's not emphasized just how useful Jumps spread is. I've been doing calcs for the last 15 minutes or so and there is a substantial difference between what Cress can take on when using Jumps spread and when using the speedy spread. Be is Band Salamence, Gyarados, Lucario etc. I think a well thought out paragraph on Jumps EV spread should be included since there is much more to it then you just mentioned. Maybe you haven't done the calcs I have so you don't know these things, if so just PM me and I'll write a paragraph up for you.

EDIT- However I still don't see the merit in 354 Speed, as I feel that that's really just as bad as 390. You're only doing it for Modest Shaymin-S, who much more commonly runs Timid. I can see the merit in running more Defense (and not 390 Speed), but why can't she just use enough EVs to outspeed something like Base 105s (or 110s or 100s or better yet 102s)?

351 Speed outruns +Speed base 110 Speed Pokemon and anything slower (Gengar, Infernape, neutral Weavile / Azelf, etc.) so that seems to be a pretty good Speed mark to me. Considering its 3 more point to outrun Modest Shaymin-s it's more of a case of "why not".

In October only 21.0% of Sky Form Shaymins had Modest, so I don't think aiming for 354 will be enough.

If you really care that much about Shaymin-S, use Jumps EVs except put the 136 Defense EVs into Special Defense and switch to a Calm nature. You'll survive 2 Timid Seed Flares 100% of the time even if the first drops your Special Defense (assuming Shaymin-S isn't using Life Orb and the majority did not in October and I suspect even less in November did). Cresselia needs the more defensive spread to handle Band to handle Mence , Lucario, and Gyara etc. I'd much rather have this counter those monsters rather then Shaymin-S.

 

[Jumpman16]

In October only 21.0% of Sky Form Shaymins had Modest, so I don't think aiming for 354 will be enough.

That's true and definitely something to consider, but I don't think the answer is much more speed. I think it should stay there or drop down just a tad to always get other relevant threats...I don't know what else Cress cares about between 354 and...what 300? I'm not sure it's worth it to drop Cress's speed that low (200), or even just to get all Luke at 307 (205) but other people should probably weigh in on that

 

[diinbong]

Maybe I'm missing something, but what is with all of the referances to Garchomp when he's no longer in OU?

 

[Jumpman16]

lol idk, i think he borrowed from thread i originally posted this idea in even though i stated that the trickcress/garchomp thing was an aside (cause it's uber now) and that cress would only have something to do with garchomp in stage 3...i also mentioned skymin as kind of an afterthought since it was a skymin discussion thread in which i mentioned trick cress in the first place

elevator music feel free to use my ideas but understand why i post them, if i were writing this analysis i would be thinking of the real pokemon trick cresselia would have something to do with (you should still mention lucario somewhere)

 

[Elevator Music]

It was mainly because I wasn't sure what to put for lack of understanding about what the EVs were for and what it would beat, but looking back that seems silly.

I re-wrote most the first paragraph. I'm really considering just taking out the mention of Gyarados since I didn't really talk about it anywhere else (I didn't feel like putting that you're stuck Tricking it too because you can't really beat it since the offensive one 3HKOs with a small chance of 2HKO while Cresselia is doing pittance to it back).

Anything simple that I'm forgetting to add?