Process Update CAP Updates Update

Birkal

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Hey y'all! I'm writing on behalf of the Update Leaders and the CAP mods today to bring us all a new proposal. We decided several months ago in this thread to not only update our previous gen CAPs to this generation, but also the process in which we'd go about those updates. Since then, the Update Leaders have done a fantastic job of adapting our previous movepools to the current generation in terms of legality of moves. We have completed over 75% of the CAP Updates, with a handful more to go.

However, we have completely run out of steam. When we started CAP27, we know that it would be difficult to keep that momentum going for updates. Still, we thought it would be cruel to impede the CAP process by delaying it until updates were completed. We pushed on with CAP27, and updates came to a screeching halt.

We can finish them the way we've been doing them (in threads), but know that we've lost a lot of our steam. We as Update Leaders absolutely want to get these done, but the current format is just too slow and cumbersome. Therefore, my proposal is a simple one. I propose that we finish out the updates in a public CAP Discord channel over the course of a day or two. When we're working on them live, the process goes MUCH faster, and everyone can chip in simultaneously. We would announce the dates/times at least a week in advance, and leave it open for the public to chime in as needed.

Are there flaws in this system? Of course -- the timezone issue is a major inhibitor for some people who would be willing to help. Access to Discord is also a consideration. And finally, talking live tends to amplify some voices and diminish others. It's not a perfect system, but my argument is that it's a lot better than the current update schedule we have. This is a one-time policy that wouldn't go into action for future generations without consideration from the PRC in the future. But right now, we're looking for permission to get these updates done in a convincing, yet timely, manner. Thanks for considering!
 

GMars

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Not opposed to this, I'd just suggest having the Update Leader track progress in a pinned post that they update as the process goes along so it's easy for someone joining in midway to catch up, which will hopefully alleviate one of the other potential issues with using livechat rather than a forum.
 
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Birkal

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is a Top Artistis a Top CAP Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
So here's what we're working with. We have 8 threads that need to be completed (orange) and 3 threads that need to be started. The rest are all set. Right now I'm gathering the ULs to figure out a time that works well enough for most of us to meet on Discord and hash out the remaining CAPs. Once we have a date set, we'll share it with you all. Thanks for your patience!

CAP1 - Syclant - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap-1-syclant.3658952/
CAP2 - Revenankh - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen8-cap-updates-cap2-revenankh.3659237/
CAP3 - Pyroak - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap3-pyroak.3659454/
CAP4 - Fidgit - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap4-fidgit.3660884/
CAP5 - Stratagem - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap5-stratagem.3660898/

CAP6 - Arghonaut - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap6-arghonaut.3658268/
CAP7 - Kitsunoh - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap7-kitsunoh.3658780/

CAP8 - Cyclohm - Does Not Exist
CAP9 - Colossoil - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap9-colossoil.3659466/

CAP10 - Krilowatt - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-updates-cap10-krilowatt.3660910/
CAP11 - Voodoom - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap11-voodoom.3660902/
CAP12 - Tomohawk - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap12-tomohawk.3659537/
CAP13 - Necturna - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen8-cap-updates-cap13-necturna.3660905/
CAP14 - Mollux - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap-14-mollux.3658291/
CAP15 - Aurumoth - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap15-aurumoth.3658771/

CAP16 - Malaconda - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap16-malaconda.3660901/
CAP17 - Cawmodore - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap17-cawmodore.3658324/
CAP18 - Volkraken - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap18-volkraken.3658853/

CAP19 - Plasmanta - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen8-cap-updates-cap19-plasmanta.3660907/
CAP20 - Naviathan - Does Not Exist
CAP21 - Crucibelle - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap21-crucibelle.3658269/
CAP22 - Kerfluffle - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap22-kerfluffle.3658273/

CAP23 - Pajantom - Does Not Exist
CAP24 - Jumbao - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap24-jumbao.3658783/

CAP25G - Caribolt - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap25g-caribolt.3658660/
CAP25F - Smokomodo - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap25f-smokomodo.3658293/
CAP25W - Snaelstrom - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap25w-snaelstrom.3658271/

CAP26 - Equilibra - https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gen-8-cap-updates-cap26-equilibra.3659123/
 

Birkal

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https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/cap-live-chatrooms.3600399/

Please use the above Discord channel to help out with updates. The UL team has decided to meet on FRIDAY of this week (5/1) to get movepools finalized. That being said, absolutely anyone can contribute and help. This is one of those projects where all hands on deck helps tremendously. We're planning from working from around 8am (GMT-5) until it's done (midnight), so stop in at any time on those days.

However, we are going to be doing preliminary work before then. If you have any interest in helping me gather movepools for Pajantom, Naviathan, and Cyclohm, that'd be beyond helpful. I can walk you through the process of what it takes to get a movepool together if you've got an hour to spare. Thanks for all your help, and see you there!
 
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GMars

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Here's Naviathan's gen7 moveset:

Red: Not selectable in SwSh
Blue: Not present as a TM or TR in SwSh
Green: Not present as a TM or TR in SwSh, but already present in Level Up or Egg Moves


00 Peck
00 Dragon Breath
00 Gust
00 Splash
00 Scary Face
00 Heavy Slam
03 Splash
07 Water Gun
11 Metal Claw
17 Scary Face
21 Metal Sound
25 Bubblebeam
31 Drill Peck
35 Flash Cannon
39 Slack Off
45 Brine
49 Icicle Crash
54 Wide Guard
60 Hydro Pump
64 Hurricane
68 Heavy Slam
70 Iron Head
74 Self Destruct

02: Dragon Claw
04: Calm Mind
06: Toxic
07: Hail
10: Hidden Power
12: Taunt
13: Ice Beam
14: Blizzard
15: Hyper Beam
17: Protect
18: Rain Dance
21: Frustration
27: Return

32: Double Team

42: Facade
44: Rest
45: Attract
48: Round
49: Echoed Voice
55: Scald
59: Brutal Swing
68: Giga Impact
87: Swagger
88: Sleep Talk
90: Substitute
91: Flash Cannon
93: Wild Charge
94: Surf
98: Waterfall
100: Confide

Egg Groups: Water 1, Field

Bite (Naviathan and friends)
Dragon Dance (Lapras and friends)
Feather Dance (Blaziken and friends) -> Farfetch’d
Feint (Kabutops and friends) -> Farfetch’d
Haze (Greninja and friends) -> Galarian Corsola
Ice Fang (Granbull and friends) -> SwSh TM67, Piloswine (unsure if still egg move)
Icicle Spear (Dewgong and friends) -> SwSh TM51, Galarian Corsola (unsure if still egg move)
Iron Tail (Naviathan and friends)
Metronome (Granbull and friends) -> SwSh TR14, Inteleon (unsure if still egg move)
Psychic Fangs (Stoutland) -> SwSh TR97, Arcanine and friends (unsure if still egg move)
Refresh (Lapras and friends)
Thunder Fang (Granbull and friends) -> SwSh TM66, Arcanine and friends (unsure if still egg move)
Water Pulse (Lapras and friends)
Whirlpool (Lapras and friends)
Wide Guard (Naviathan and friends)

Dragon Pulse
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Iron Defense
Iron Head
Iron Tail
Snore
Thunder Punch
Water Pulse

XY HM04: Strength
XY TM94, ORAS HM06: Rock Smash

XY TM67: Retaliate (SwSh TM79)
ORAS TM94: Secret Power
ORAS HM07: Dive (SwSh TM45)


Please let me know if anyone catches any errors.
 
Cyclohm's Gen 7 movepool

Red = not present in SWSH
Blue = not a TM or TR in SWSH
Green = not a TM or TR in SWSH but already in the Pokemon's level-up or egg pool

- Electric Terrain
- Whirlwind
- Bide (red)
- Tackle
- Growl
7 Twister
11 Charge
11 Thunder Shock
16 Sonic Boom
20 Double Hit
24 Dragon Rage (red)
29 Dragon Breath
33 Discharge
37 Rain Dance
42 Weather Ball
48 Slack Off
53 Thrash
59 Lock-On
59 Zap Cannon
65 Thunder
Evolution: Tri Attack


TM02 Dragon Claw
TM03 Water Pulse (blue)
TM05 Roar (blue)
TM06 Toxic (blue)
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power (red)
TM11 Sunny Day
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration (red)
TM24 Thunderbolt
TM25 Thunder
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return (red)
TM32 Double Team
TM35 Flamethrower
TM37 Sandstorm
TM38 Fire Blast
TM40 Aerial Ace (blue)
TM41 Torment (blue)
TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round (blue)
TM57 Charge Beam (blue)
TM68 Giga Impact
TM72 Volt Switch
TM73 Thunder Wave
TM78 Bulldoze
TM82 Dragon Tail (blue)
TM87 Swagger
TM90 Substitute
TM92 Trick Room
TM93 Wild Charge
TM94 Surf
TM96 Nature Power (red)
TM98 Waterfall
TM100 Confide


Aqua Tail (blue)
Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Electroweb
Headbutt (blue)
Icy Wind
Iron Tail
Mud-Slap (blue)
Outrage
Shock Wave (blue)
Signal Beam (red)
Sleep Talk
Snore
Swift
Twister (green)
Water Pulse (blue)


Dragon Breath
Heal Bell (blue)
Hydro Pump
Mud-Slap (blue)
Powder Snow (blue)
Power Gem


Captivate (red)
Endure
Flash (red)
Hone Claws (Gen 5/6 TM)
Incinerate (Gen 5/6 TM)
Natural Gift (red)
Secret Power (red)
Strength (blue)
 
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cbrevan

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Yo. Big thanks to Reviloja753 GMars Mova for helping out with the movepools. This post is a QC check to ensure the provided movepools are as accurate as possible; I'll also be reposting all of them to condense them into a single post using the format we've established with previous update threads.

Pajantom:
Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move would only be available as a pre-Gen 8 transfer move through Pokemon Home
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves


- Spirit Shackle
- Brave Bird
- Fairy Lock
- Snore
- Wrap
- Astonish
- Growl
6 - Snore
8 - Wrap
10 - Laser Focus
12 - Dragon Rage
17 - Poison Gas
19 - Dragon Breath
23 - Dragon Claw
28 - Toxic Spikes
30 - Heal Block
32 - Psychic Fangs
34 - Dragon Rush
37 - Haze
39 - Spirit Shackle
45 - Phantom Force
53 - Outrage
TM 02 Dragon Claw
TM 06 Toxic
TM 09 Venoshock
TM 10 Hidden Power
TM 15 Hyper Beam
TM 17 Protect
TM 18 Rain Dance
TM 21 Frustration
TM 26 Earthquake
TM 27 Return
TM 28 Leech Life
TM 29 Psychic
TM 30 Shadow Ball
TM 32 Double Team
TM 39 Rock Tomb
TM 40 Aerial Ace
TM 42 Facade
TM 44 Rest
TM 45 Attract
TM 48 Round
TM 59 Brutal Swing
TM 65 Shadow Claw
TM 67 Smart Strike
TM 68 Giga Impact
TM 71 Stone Edge
TM 76 Fly
TM 77 Psych Up
TM 78 Bulldoze
TM 80 Rock Slide
TM 83 Infestation
TM 85 Dream Eater
TM 87 Swagger
TM 88 Sleep Talk
TM 90 Substitute
TM 92 Trick Room
TM 94 Surf
TM 100 Confide
Bind
Block

Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Drill Run
Dual Chop
Gastro Acid
Gravity
Helping Hand
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Iron Tail
Laser Focus
Outrage
Snore
Spite
Telekinesis

Throat Chop
Zen Headbutt
Egg Groups - Dragon / Monster

Ice Fang (Gyarados, Tyranitar, Avalugg)
Iron Tail (Charizard, Rhyperior, Gyarados, Tyranitar, etc.)
Poison Fang (Salazzle)
Sand Tomb (Flygon, Sandaconda)
Spite (Gyarados, Rhyperior, Tyranitar, Scrafty, Hydreigon)
Whirlpool (Gyarados)
Fairy lock removed from red list. Nothing learns it in-game due to Klefki not being in SwSh, but the move is usable (and therefore available for CAP) regardless.


Naviathan:
Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move would only be available as a pre-Gen 8 transfer move through Pokemon Home
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves


00 Peck
00 Dragon Breath
00 Gust
00 Splash
00 Scary Face
00 Heavy Slam
03 Splash
07 Water Gun
11 Metal Claw
17 Scary Face
21 Metal Sound
25 Bubblebeam
31 Drill Peck
35 Flash Cannon
39 Slack Off
45 Brine
49 Icicle Crash
54 Wide Guard
60 Hydro Pump
64 Hurricane
68 Heavy Slam
70 Iron Head
74 Self Destruct
02: Dragon Claw
04: Calm Mind
06: Toxic
07: Hail
10: Hidden Power
12: Taunt
13: Ice Beam
14: Blizzard
15: Hyper Beam
17: Protect
18: Rain Dance
21: Frustration
27: Return

32: Double Team

42: Facade
44: Rest
45: Attract
48: Round
49: Echoed Voice
55: Scald
59: Brutal Swing
68: Giga Impact
87: Swagger
88: Sleep Talk
90: Substitute
91: Flash Cannon
93: Wild Charge
94: Surf
98: Waterfall
100: Confide
Egg Groups: Water 1, Field

Bite (Naviathan and friends)
Dragon Dance (Lapras and friends)
Feather Dance (Blaziken and friends) -> Farfetch’d
Feint (Kabutops and friends) -> Farfetch’d
Haze (Greninja and friends) -> Galarian Corsola
Ice Fang (Granbull and friends) -> SwSh TM67, Piloswine (moves to TM)
Icicle Spear (Dewgong and friends) -> SwSh TM51, Galarian Corsola (moves to TM)
Iron Tail (Naviathan and friends)
Metronome (Granbull and friends) -> SwSh TR14, Inteleon (moves to TR)
Psychic Fangs (Stoutland) -> SwSh TR97, Arcanine and friends (moves to TR)
Refresh (Lapras and friends)
Thunder Fang (Granbull and friends) -> SwSh TM66, Arcanine and friends (moves to TM)
Water Pulse (Lapras and friends)
Whirlpool (Lapras and friends)
Wide Guard (Naviathan and friends)
Dragon Pulse
Ice Punch
Icy Wind
Iron Defense
Iron Head
Iron Tail
Snore
Thunder Punch
Water Pulse
XY HM04: Strength
XY TM94, ORAS HM06: Rock Smash

XY TM67: Retaliate (SwSh TM79)
ORAS TM94: Secret Power
ORAS HM07: Dive (SwSh TM45)
From what I can tell, Gmars nailed it! As to whether or not egg moves that are now available as TMs/TRs are still egg moves, the answer is no. Egg moves are moves exclusively learned through breeding, otherwise every move in the movepool would be considered one. Since they're now available from a source outside of breeding, we'll put them under that source.


Cyclohm:
Red means the move is not in SWSH
Blue means the move would only be available as a pre-Gen 8 transfer move through Pokemon Home
Green moves would be blue, except the move already appears in Level Up or Egg Moves


- Electric Terrain
- Whirlwind
- Bide
- Tackle
- Growl
7 Twister
11 Charge
11 Thunder Shock
16 Sonic Boom
20 Double Hit
24 Dragon Rage
29 Dragon Breath
33 Discharge
37 Rain Dance
42 Weather Ball
48 Slack Off
53 Thrash
59 Lock-On
59 Zap Cannon
65 Thunder
Evolution: Tri Attack
TM02 Dragon Claw
TM03 Water Pulse
TM05 Roar
TM06 Toxic
TM07 Hail
TM10 Hidden Power
TM11 Sunny Day
TM13 Ice Beam
TM14 Blizzard
TM15 Hyper Beam
TM16 Light Screen
TM17 Protect
TM18 Rain Dance
TM21 Frustration
TM24 Thunderbolt
TM25 Thunder
TM26 Earthquake
TM27 Return
TM32 Double Team

TM35 Flamethrower
TM37 Sandstorm
TM38 Fire Blast
TM40 Aerial Ace
TM41 Torment

TM42 Facade
TM44 Rest
TM45 Attract
TM48 Round
TM57 Charge Beam
TM68 Giga Impact
TM72 Volt Switch
TM73 Thunder Wave
TM78 Bulldoze
TM82 Dragon Tail
TM87 Swagger

TM90 Substitute
TM92 Trick Room
TM93 Wild Charge
TM94 Surf
TM96 Nature Power
TM98 Waterfall
TM100 Confide
Aqua Tail
Draco Meteor
Dragon Pulse
Electroweb
Headbutt
Icy Wind
Iron Tail
Mud-Slap
Outrage
Shock Wave
Signal Beam

Sleep Talk
Snore
Swift
Twister
Water Pulse
Egg groups: Dragon / Monster
Dragon Breath (Charizard and friends)
Heal Bell (no available donors)
Hydro Pump (TR 3)
Mud-Slap (Flygon and friends)
Powder Snow (Abomasnow and friends)
Power Gem (TR 63)
Captivate
Endure
Flash
Hone Claws (Gen 5/6 TM)
Incinerate (Gen 5/6 TM)
Natural Gift
Secret Power

Strength
Color coded moves are now actually color coded.
Sonic Boom to red.
Double Team to blue.
Removed Round from blue (SwSh TM 76).
Swagger to blue.
Confide to blue.
Added clarification on donors for egg moves.
Removed Mud-Slap from blue due to available donors (Flygon, etc.).
Removed Power Snow from blue to available donors (Abomasnow, etc.).


Again, thanks to those who helped put these together. If you notice any errors, let me know either through this thread or Discord/Smogon PM.
 
Hey cbro, thanks a bunch for helping correct the color coding and egg donors on Cyclohm. I only realized how to change text color on the Forums because I didn't see the corresponding icon.
 

Birkal

We have the technology.
is a Top Artistis a Top CAP Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Admin Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
So you might have blinked and missed it, but we finished all updates yesterday (May 1st)! I was up at 8am my time, and logged off once we finished at around 1am the next day. We had at least one update going at any one time, and peaked at four simultaneously Discord discussions at once. It was an absolutely wild day, but the sense of accomplishment we felt as a community was strong. We were able to get 14 CAPs done in one day (out of 29), some of which had seen zero progress before Friday.

I'm working on getting the Discord chat uploaded into a sticky for posterity. For now, you can find the updates channels archived on Discord publicly (if you're interested in uploading the chat, send me a PM; it would take you five minutes and mean a lot to me). So now, I'd like to take some time and reflect on the process as a Policy Review Committee. Here are some jumping point questions that you can utilize as you see fit:
  1. How did you feel the process of updating CAPs via Discord went overall? Do you feel we were successful in updating all CAPs? Why or why not?
  2. Do you think Discord updates are something we should pursue in the future? If so, what would you change about them? If not, what advantages do you feel that forum discussions have over Discord?
  3. If you participated, did you feel that your voice was being heard? Did you feel productive and involved?
  4. If you did not participate, why not? Do you wish you could have? Are you glad the updates are over, or do you feel left out?
  5. Any final thoughts, impressions, or comments you'd like to share?
 

MrDollSteak

CAP 1v1 me IRL
is a Community Contributoris an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
Just want to say a massive thank you to you Birkal for your excellent leadership throughout the process. It was no small feat.

1) Overall I think it was incredibly successful. Looking at how many were completed, and in such a short time period, it's clear that it was a resounding success. The only point that I think may be worth considering in the future, is that the consistency across new move selections and or transfer move replacements for the various CAPs according to their Update Leaders. I think that every CAP came out the side with logical choices, but some had more blue moves salvaged than others through egg move additions as a loose example. Of course I believe that this was primarily a result of the time frame, but just one thing that I think may be worth pointing out.

2) I think this is a tricky one to answer. Overall I found it very productive and ultimately makes the process a lot smoother, but that being said directing decisions away from the forum as far as an official policy is a potentially dangerous prospect. The discord is a different entry banner to the forums, even if there are benefits to live chatting. In any case, I think that if they were to be done again in the future, a longer time line would be beneficial, with some structured discussion questions, perhaps with limits to what people can post at a time to encourage more time to think over and reflect on specific suggestions.

3) Absolutely! The live back and forth was a very effective way to see thoughts on moves. When it came to certain controversial moves however, considering the short time period we were working with, it often felt like discussion on moves was shut down to stay on the safe side. I don't think that this was necessarily a problem regarding these specific updates, but in future with a longer period of time to work with, it may be helpful to take time to discuss individual moves more extensively.

Overall, I think this was a great process, and may be a good way to go about doing the updates for future generations, though of course a more clear structure and timeline tailored to a longer discord process would be the best way to go about it I think. While I think the forums being the primary place for discussion would be the best in the long term, it did of course end up stalling at a certain point, so I'm not entirely sure how this can be avoided in the future, and subsequently the smoothness of the discord process meant that it got completed quickly, and subsequently may be ideal for any future processes.
 

cbrevan

spin, spin, spin
is a CAP Contributoris a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
As one of the people who've been involved with the Gen 8 update process from the beginning, I'm going to be commenting on the entire process, from the framework we used in the PRC to Friday's livechat discussions.

Addressing the elephant in the room, Gamefreak absolutely fucked us this gen in regards to CAP updates. The original PRC was started far before Dexit and its effects on Pokemon were known, meaning that the original framework snake provided needed to be updated to accommodate the massive changes Gen 8 brought to move distribution. The problem here was that there was an extreme lack of information about a lot of process critical components leading up to and during Gen 8. The dates for DLC release had to be and are still speculated. Information for Pokemon Home, specifically the interaction between it and transfer moves, were entirely unaddressed until the weeks coming up to Home's release. What moves were unusable and what moves were simply unobtainable had to be datamined directly from the games themselves because an official list wasn't available. In short, Gamefreak broke all trends we relied upon when making the original framework and communicated next to none of these changes clearly, which meant that the CAP mods had to try and figure out an appropriate response both in the thread and in private channels from the incomplete information that was available.

Dexit and its associated move removals and the introduction of a TR system were beyond anything we could have anticipated. When I was helping snake draft the first update framework, we relied heavily on the trends seen in previous gens to cut down on the workload. We expected to be discussing maybe ~120 moves between new Gen 8 moves and the established 100 TMs, and this was reflected in the streamlined timeline we presented. This was already a too large a number to discuss, which is why the framework made a heavy emphasis on pure flavor additions in order to avoid lengthy discussions over balancing. Before Dexit, I honestly expect Gen 8 updates to have us looking at maybe 20 relevant moves in total for discussion per mon. In reality, we had 200 moves split between TRs and TMs to apply to 27 Pokemon, on top of the new gen 8 moves, on top of all the moves that were removed from the game, on top of all the moves that were now gated behind past gen TMs and tutors. To further complicate matters, details on Home were nonexistent, so we had to assume the worse case scenario that transfer moves would not be usable. What started as a speculated ~120 moves for discussion blossomed into at least triple that amount between the newly distributed moves and the currently unavailable moves we had to discuss.

Obviously, more moves to discuss meant that there was a higher workload than expect for the updates. Unfortunately, this was not accounted for in the final PRC decision. We went with the timeline snake provided for the original framework, which was seven ULs hosting seven threads at one week intervals. To put this in perspective, if we divided thread time evenly between discussing move removals and move additions, that was 3.5 day to discuss either topic for 7 different Pokemon. In hindsight, its really no surprise that our update project dragged on for far longer than expected, as the initial expectations far underestimated the amount of material we needed to shift through. This resulted in an under staffed, poorly motivated, and overworked UL team that suffered from some pretty intense burnout by the second half of the project.

Going back to Gamefreak and updates, Home was a big kick in the teeth for us. The workload before home was roughly double than the workload we had after home, as the process went from discussing removals and additions to solely discussing additions. This was honestly a motivation killer, as Home invalidated a ton of work that went into previous update threads. If Home didn't allow transferable moves to be used in Gen 8, I doubt that Friday's livechat would have been as productive as it had been if we still had to discuss removals.

Now that I've addressed how we poorly the planning stages went, lets jump into the actual project.

The first point of failure for the project was the UL nomination thread. Going into updates, CAP was at a lowpoint for user activity and motivation following the depressing last several months of Gen 7 followed by a deep dive into the cluster fuck that was Dynamax at the start of Gen 8. We needed 7 people to lead updates and we got exactly 7 volunteers capable of doing so, which was the bare minimum we needed to skate by. This also meant that we had zero substitutes set up to help cover for the ULs.

This ended up crippling the project as reachzero fell off the face of the earth before finishing their first Pokemon, meaning the UL team was understaffed almost from the start. UL participation ended up being one of the major stalling points for updates as the process progressed, as half of the remaining team were swamped with IRL responsibilities that severely cut back on the amount of time they could dedicated to the process. As there were no substitutes for ULs, not even runner ups as we had an exact seven volunteers, work piled up until updates were considerably behind.

Continuing with the theme of an overworked UL team, UL workload was larger than anything the PRC alluded to. Not only did the UL team have to complete four threads individually to discuss the massive amount of movepool changes this generation brought, they were also responsible for managing update policy, helping other ULs with various issues, and coordinating with each other to ensure the responses to each thread was consistent. The UL team ended up having to juggle responsibilities between their own Pokemon and eachothers.

Moving onto the thread execution, the past livechat discussion made it clear that it was possible for the ULs to outsource much of the busy work to the greater CAP community. Highlighting movepools, rebuilding movepools, checking egg moves legalities, etc. could all have been outsourced to the regular contributor in order to lessen the workload for the UL team. At certain points, the UL team did delegate work for the IRL busy members, but it was mostly to other UL members.

Another problem that was prevalent throughout the update process was that the community itself was hesitant to engage in some threads. Some Pokemon saw heavy discussion, other times a UL had to try and create an ICC for a move based off four posts, half of which provided bare bones reasoning. This process needed an active community to take a lot of the debating and fact checking duties away from the ULs; the goal was to let the community sort out the various issues with the ULs as supervisors. In reality, the ULs were forced to make decision after decision for sometimes arbitrary reasons because there wasn't enough feedback for us to effectively do our jobs. This put a lot of stress on the ULs and lowered the quality of updates overall, while also forcing ULs to extend their deadlines to accomodate for the low posting activity.

So, to sum up the issues I had with this update process: Gen 8 and Pokemon Home made it difficult to properly prepare for movepool issues. We failed to correctly evaluate the workload each UL member would be responsible for. We didn't take into account the low motivation our posters had or the amount of burn out the UL team would have. The community was shy to fully engage in thread discussion, forcing ULs to go over their prescribed deadlines in the hope of seeing issues resolved. The UL team was understaffed from the beginning and had very little support aside from other UL members. Work was not effectively outsourced even when it was apparent the UL team was overworked. Substitutes for inactive ULs were never found.

Now, commenting on the discord discussions:

1. I absolutely loved the discord discussions. I loved how organized discussion was with multiple channels. I loved how the UL team was out in force to ensure everything went smoothly. I fucking adored how people stepped up and created a support team to deal with movepool construction while the ULs lead their respective discussions. The livechat discussions were the definite high point of the process and I felt like they were immensely successful. We had a goal and we achieved it. I enjoyed discussing and debating with everyone which is all that I could ask for.
2. I think livechat discussions are the way to go with updates. For the sheer volume of Pokemon and moves we had to discuss, discord was the most efficient system for rapidly discussing topic to topic. Compared to forums, the pace of discussion is faster and its easier to get a consensus when you can literally ask the chat if they support a decisions. Forum threads were tedious to make and maintain and often times the quality of posts made discussion poor; discord side stepped that entirely. Moreover, the workload for each generation is only going to increase as we release more CAPs, so we need to use the most efficient form of communication to ensure updates don't drag on.
3. Was my voice heard? Absolutely, but that's to be expected when I'm a UL. For the mons that I wasn't the UL for, I still felt like my opinion was being heard and I can't think of a single instance where I was outright ignored. I ran my mons on a move to move basis, where I brought up a move for discussion and made a decision based off chat feedback before moving onto the next. I believe that my chats were structured and benefited from it. By doing so, we were able to go through a dozen moves in less than two hours, which I viewed as productive.
5. I think the biggest downside to the discord chat was that it gated participation behind availibility. I default to forum posting as my go to place for CAP discussion because it allows posters to reply to eachother across differing timezones. Discord does not allow that due to the rapid pace of discussion. Some potential ways to circumvent this in the future is to create a schedule ahead of time detailing when each Pokemon would be discussed so people can plan accordingly. Hosting livechat discussions alongside an open forum thread would allow users to give feedback on the mon without being gated solely by availability.
 

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