CAP 32 - Part 8 - Stat Limits Discussion

[quziel]

Ok, so I figure I should get some limits up for special sets.

If we assume that special should have the same "limited bulk" when maxing out SS, we get the following:
Hyper Voice:
BSR <= 506
SS <= 125
PT <= 109
ST <= 102
SpA <= 130

Boomburst:
BSR <= 450
SS <= 100.5
PT <= 109
ST <= 102
SpA <= 112

This translates to -56 BSR when including boomburst. This is a lot, but the move is substantially stronger than anything that Hvoice sets can realistically put out. I'm also applying two additional SpA ceilings. For Hyper Voice I'm simply trying to ensure that our stats "appear" within the realm of bang average, which generally is at 130 at the very most. For Boomburst 113 SpA is what you need to 2HKO Clodsire with Choice Specs Modest Tera Fairy Boomburst, which is a lot. This ensures that we don't end up with an utter monster of a Special Attacker. For Reference, Sylveon is at 110 and is a fairly capable mixed mon.

=========================

For mixed spreads its been a bit difficult for me to really feel out how to handle them well. However I have what I view to be a solution.

When a spread is counted as Mixed by OCAT:
BSR <= 467
SS <= 125
PS <= 106
S <= 110
PT <= 109
ST <= 102
SpA <= 130
Atk <= 125
When determining your BSR, treat your lower attacking stat as if it was 5 points lower.

I've tried to give mixed spreads a tiny bit more power than they'd otherwise have, and that's in the shape of giving you 5 attack "for free". You still need to abide by the lower of the two spread's overall BSR, but I think this might work?

When a spread is counted as Mixed by OCAT and uses Boomburst:
BSR <= 450
SS <= 100.5
S <= 100
PS <= 106
PT <= 109
ST <= 102
SpA <= 112
Atk <= 125
When determining your BSR, treat your lower attacking stat as if it was 5 points lower. You must still abide by PS, SS, and S limits.

Same deal

============================================

Limits

OCAT = Physical:
BSR <= 467
PS <= 106
PT <= 109
ST <= 102
Atk <= 125

OCAT = Special:
BSR <= 506
SS <= 125
PT <= 109
ST <= 102
SpA <= 130

OCAT = Boomburst and SpA > 70:
BSR <= 450
SS <= 100.5
PT <= 109
ST <= 102
SpA <= 112

OCAT = Mixed
BSR <= 467
SS <= 125
PS <= 106
S <= 110
PT <= 109
ST <= 102
SpA <= 112
Atk <= 125

OCAT = Mixed and Boomburst
BSR <= 450
SS <= 100.5
S <= 100
PS <= 106
PT <= 109
ST <= 102
SpA <= 112
Atk <= 125

============================================

Remember, a spread only starts counting as mixed when the Attack stat is roughly 80% of the Special Attack stat, and vice versa, with some caveats based on the raw stat.

1) Does treating the lower attack stat as if it was 5 points lower help mixed spreads with BSR in a functional manner?
2) Are there any issues with the limits set
2 a) Boomburst, as is, has a very heavy tax on BSR; is this appropriate for physically biased mixed spreads as well, is there a way to mitigate this?
3) Are there any issues with the ceilings set.
4) Other Defining Moves: How much should Armor Cannon, Bitter Blade, Strength Sap, Torch Song reduce overall BSR by
5) Heat Crash is substantially better than Flare Blitz, and I am debating a BSR reduction for it, should I?

 

[Brown4Sides]

I meant to post this after your post regarding physical limits, but I wasn't sure how to word it: I think the BSR for physical sets could use an increase to maybe 475. Barely surviving 2+ 5 fainted allies Sucker Punch Kingambit is a low bar to clear. Allowing us to potentially avoid a 2HKO from Choice Band Meowscarada's Flower Trick while still having flexibility in other areas could be beneficial for us. Not to mention 475 is still what I would consider Bang Average. The only fully evolved CAP below 475 BSR is Pyroak. Our ceiling on Attack will help ensure we don't just have a Rampardos spread.

4) Other Defining Moves: How much should Armor Cannon, Bitter Blade, Strength Sap, Torch Song reduce overall BSR by

Strength Sap could maybe see a minor hit to BSR like -5 given that you are weakening your opponent's attack power while healing yourself. I don't think any of the other moves you mentioned need BSR hits.

5) Heat Crash is substantially better than Flare Blitz, and I am debating a BSR reduction for it, should I?

Yes, but only a minor one like -5.

 

[shnowshner]

Want to focus on 2a quick:

The goal of a mixed set is going to be particularly dependent on what the submitter is aiming for, whether that's "obligate" mixed that almost always wants to run Phys/Spec moves, or a more "habitual" mixed that runs one side predominately but uses a move of the opposite side for a specific purpose.

For Boomburst specifically, the move has such great power attached to it that even a spread with fairly low Special Attack may decide to simply don the Choice Specs and start blasting, even if designed around being more Physical and with Boomburst as a minor consideration. We need to keep our overall stat power low as a result, but this would come at the cost of our other stats, and at a certain point a mixed Boomburst spread might just be wholly less efficient as a piece of the metagame than a full-on Boomburst focused spread.

I'm thinking that a potential solution would be extra limits on SS and max Special Attack for mixed Boomburst spreads, but with a slight increase to overall BSR to compensate. This essentially allows for a Boomburst spread that trades maximizing damage output for broader avenues of play, whether that's having strong Physical hits or additional bulk. I don't want to get into exact numbers or methodology as it's far from my strong suit, but I hope it's a somewhat useful launchpad to work off of.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

1) Does treating the lower attack stat as if it was 5 points lower help mixed spreads with BSR in a functional manner?

I would say so. I'm not sure if the exact value is enough or too much, since I haven't really messed with it all that much, but the idea in general is fairly solid and does help with one of the major problems that mixed spreads faced in the BSR Formula being heavily biased against them.

2) Are there any issues with the limits set

3) Are there any issues with the ceilings set.

I still like the idea of raising the Attack ceiling from 125 to 130, but apart from that I don't really have an issues with any of the ceilings that have been set.

4) Other Defining Moves: How much should Armor Cannon, Bitter Blade, Strength Sap, Torch Song reduce overall BSR by

Armor Cannon: -5 BSR sounds about right for this. This drop basically correlates to dropping from 88 Speed (Outspeeding Great Tusk) to 85 Speed (Outspeeding Gholdengo) on max offenses and "standard" bulk , which I think is fairly reasonable trade to make for the increase in power. D
Bitter Blade: Doesn't need a penalty, as it will be presumably taking the place of Flare Blitz/Heat Crash on physical sets, and I think that the power drop is enough to compensate for the extra longevity the move brings.
Strength Sap: I'm honestly not sure on this one.
Torch Song: I think a -10 BSR reduction would be good here. This drop essentially just correlates to apply the Armor Cannon penalty twice, which I think is warranted due to how it snowballs itself and our other moves as well. To put things into perspective, this is essentially dropping our Speed (On max offenses and "standard" bulk) from 88 Speed to 82 Speed, making it so that Adamant Colossoil now outspeeds us.

5) Heat Crash is substantially better than Flare Blitz, and I am debating a BSR reduction for it, should I?

I think -5 BSR would be fair for the same reasons that I gave for Armor Cannon (Essentially forcing us to drop our speed a little bit). These two moves are about on par with each other in terms of how much better than they are than their weaker counterparts, so it makes sense to treat them equally in my opinion.

 

[quziel]

Ok, so I've had some PM, Discord, and Thread convos, and want to propose these as my "semi final" limits:
Choose one of these:

Physical or Physically Biased Mixed w/ Boomburst
BSR <= 480
PS <= 115
SS <= 90
S <= 102
PT <= 109
ST <= 102
Atk <= 130
SpA <= 99

Special or Specially Biased Mixed
BSR <= 510
SS <= 126
PS <= 95
S <= 112
PT <= 109
ST <= 102
SpA <= 130
Atk <= 100

Special or Specially Biased Mixed w/ Boomburst
BSR <= 465
SS <= 108
S <= 95
PT <= 109
ST <= 102
SpA <= 112
Atk <= 130

These have a bit more creep, and I'm omitting an explicit category for physically biased mixed with hvoice and espeed. That said, I think they have a bit more room for the BSR penalties that I'm going to be applying here. Generally speaking I've allowed all the spreads to go about 5 speed faster.

-10 BSR: Torch Song
-5 BSR: Heat Crash, Armor Cannon, Bitter Blade
-3 BSR: Strength Sap

I'd like some final feedback before I open stat subs tomorrow. I'm also considering dropping the idea of reducing the lower attack stat, as I've been a lot more generous with BSR, and due to how sweepiness works the penalty really isn't that big.

 

[Brown4Sides]

I appreciate the BSR raise. These limits look great, my only suggestion would be to remove the BSR penalty for Bitter Blade, while it does have healing properties, the lower power means it is about on par with Flare Blitz IMO.

 

[bigtibba]

I think the BSR limits are also fine. Will second the idea that Bitter Blade shouldn't have a penalty, while it does increase longevity, it is a lot easier to switch into.

 

[Wulfanator]

A significant improvement over the original limits. I feel that the additional penalties for Armor Cannon, Bitter Blade, and Strength Sap should be dropped. The limits, while more generous, are still very restrictive compared past projects. They should be enough to keep these moves in check. These moves also feel like a lateral move as opposed to a direct upgrade from alternative moves like Flare Blitz and Fire Blast. I also see us experiencing the same issues as Kitsunoh with regard to strength sap on a semi-frail build. These are the type of adjustments best reserved for the post play lookback instead of being imposed from the jump.

The additional restrictions for Heat Crash and Torch Song are appropriate.

 

[Amamama]

I’ve been futzing around with higher speed spreads and as usual you can see that at the highest speeds there’s barely any punishment for outspeeding more Pokémon.
The difference between 117 and 142 speed at a turn value 2,5 is only 4 SpA which barely changes any relevant calc.
Setting the turns limit at 1,5 increased this slightly to 6spa (which still isn’t a lot tbh) although it also means, that max spa spreads now can be slightly faster while there’s also a much heavier punishment on bulk.
I don’t think this is ideal since the limits will get even more complicated.
I believe simply setting a speed limit similar to the attack limit is the easiest way to curb high speed spreads.
Unless you think Weavile will make a grand return in OU I think 124 Speed is a good cap, as it allows 32 to outspeed every relevant unboosted fairy target except Pult, letting you threaten Meow and Greninja, while being slower than Strata.

 

[quziel]

Limits:
Choose any of the following that fits your spread; the names suggest what they're used for, but as long as you fulfill all requirements for one of these your spread is valid.

Physical or Physically Biased Mixed w/ Boomburst
BSR <= 480
PS <= 115
SS <= 90
Atk >= SpA
S <= 102
PT <= 110
ST <= 105
Atk <= 130
SpA <= 99
Spe <= 129

Special or Specially Biased Mixed
BSR <= 510
SS <= 126
PS <= 95
SpA >= Atk
S <= 112
PT <= 110
ST <= 105
SpA <= 130
Atk <= 100
Spe <= 129

Special or Specially Biased Mixed w/ Boomburst
BSR <= 465
SS <= 108
S <= 95
PT <= 110
ST <= 105
SpA <= 112
Atk <= 130
Spe <= 129

Defining Moves:

-10 BSR: Torch Song
-5 BSR: Heat Crash, Bitter Blade

Reasoning:
I have removed the tax on Armor Cannon, as it realistically is not that much better than Fire Blast. I have kept the tax on Heat Crash and Bitter Blade, as their lack of recoil effectively increases the bulk of any spread that chooses them, so I felt a mild reduction in BSR (in effect bulk) was appropriate. I have also placed a ceiling on speed of 129; this ensures that we can outrun Meowscarada if we choose, but can never outrun Stratagem. I'm also setting attack > spa on the first spread, as its the more generous of the boomburst allowed spreads, and its not my intention to allow folks to have a modest special sweepiness spread with 480 BSR worth of bulk.

 

[spoo]

It’s only fitting that a stat centric project has limits as comprehensive and specific as these. Incredible work y’all. APPROVED!