CAP 30 - Part 16 - Flavor Ability Discussion

[Tadasuke]

CAP 30 So Far

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Please pay very close attention to Tadasuke's posts during this thread and remain on topic. DO NOT begin by posting massive lists of abilities!

Some general rules for this discussion:

• Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
• There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.

The following abilities are banned from this discussion:

Fully Banned Abilities group

Arena Trap
As One
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Chilling Neigh
Dark Aura
Dauntless Shield
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Dragon's Maw
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Grim Neigh
Gulp Missile
Hunger Switch
Ice Face
Illusion
Imposter
Intrepid Sword
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Transistor
Turboblaze
Unseen Fist
Victory Star
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Soft Banned Abilities group

These abilities are banned by default and should not be discussed barring exceptional cases. If you believe one of these abilities should be considered, you can make a post trying to explain why an exception is warranted in this specific case and if both the TL and Ability Leader agree, it will be allowed. If the TLT disagrees with the unbanning proposal, they should be considered fully banned and should not be further discussed.

Bulletproof
Color Change*
Defeatist
Dry Skin
Flash Fire
Fur Coat
Gorilla Tactics
Huge Power
Ice Scales
Libero*
Levitate
Lightning Rod
Magic Guard
Mimicry*
Motor Drive
Parental Bond
Protean*
Pure Power
Regenerator
Sap Sipper
Slow Start
Stall
Storm Drain
Truant
Volt Absorb
Water Absorb
Water Bubble

*These abilities can only be considered for an unban if the Ability stage is done before typing.

Secondary Ability ban group

Beast Boost
Comatose
Drizzle
Drought
Electric Surge
Fluffy
Grassy Surge
Innards Out
Magic Bounce
Misty Surge
Prankster
Psychic Surge
Sand Spit
Sand Stream
Snow Warning
Speed Boost
Stamina
Steam Engine
Triage

Flavor ability only ban group

Ball Fetch
Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power Spot
Power of Alchemy
Propeller Tail
Receiver
Run Away
Stalwart
Symbiosis
Telepathy

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Primary Ability banlist

Fully Banned Abilities group + Soft Banned Abilities group + flavor ability-only group

Secondary Ability banlist

Fully Banned Abilities group + Soft Banned Abilities group + secondary ability group + flavor ability-only group

Flavor Ability banlist

Primary ability group + secondary ability group

Ability banlist PRC threads:

• US/UM: http://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7391668
• SW/SH: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3659245/

 

[Tadasuke]

Surprise surprise everyone, we're back for another round of ability discussion!

Since we're already so deep into the project, our options are a bit limited at this point. With this in mind, I'd like to address the following routes before we open any discussion on specific abilities:

• No Flavor Ability
• Flavor Ability for 30b
• Flavor Ability for both forms

The first option is the most simple, keeping both forms as they are and mandating use of the abilities that the concept was centered around. The second option leans towards mirroring the ability distribution on both forms of Giratina, while the third ignores the flavor aspect and opts to give both forms a bit more depth. I did specifically leave off a fourth option which would give 30i an ability but not 30b because it seems to transgress pretty heavily on flavor aspects.

I'm going to leave this initial discussion open for 48 hours, then we'll see how best to proceed from there.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I personally think based on existing mons like Giratina, the most logical option is a flavour ability for 30b only.

 

[Zetalz]

Flavor Ability for 30b most accurately recreates Giratina as was stated but No Flavor Ability is equally viable imo just to reduce on clutter. Ability for both is not it chief.

 

[dex]

there should not be any flavor abilities.

 

[knightToday]

Given the fact each ability represents a single form, flavour abilities would be actively reducing this correspondence. Best to have none.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Flavor Ability for both forms: This sort of goes against the idea of the framework so I don't really like this option.

No Flavor Ability: Both forms already make good use of their abilities and are a core part of their place in the metagame. I don't think we really have to be concerned about having another ability being harmful to the concept as a whole, especially when most of the abilities we are going to be propsing are pretty much guaranteed to be outclassed by Stamina and Tinted Lens. I would also argue that it has the same problem of going against the framework that putting an ability on both forms does. Definitely my least favorite option.

Flavor Ability for 30b: Does the best job at reflecting the framework and lets us mess around with this stage. I really don't see any reason not to go with this option.

 

[kjnjkmjk1]

I'll preface this by saying that my preferred option is Flavor Ability for 30b. It still gives a flavor ability to this Pokemon and mirrors Giratina.

I will also argue against the idea that there shouldn't be any flavor abilities. For one, this is not a Chromera situation, where its concept-central ability in Color Change is in constant danger of having something else run over it. There are very few legal choices for flavor abilities that are also capable of overshadowing Tinted Lens for 30i. While Stamina for 30b is certainly a lower bar to clear in terms of something else finding use, it is still a strong ability in its own right, and I think we have more than enough choices out here that we can pick an ability with plenty of flavor that doesn't overshadow Stamina. Cyclohm is a Pokemon that ran almost an identical concept, and we still managed to find a flavorful (and mostly useless) hidden ability in Damp that didn't overshadow either one of Static and Shield Dust. I don't think a flavor ability is "clutter" to the point that we should be disposing of it in this scenario.
From a flavor standpoint, I looked into which Pokemon have only one ability, and tried to find patterns. Here are the patterns I noted:

• Legendaries (a status we are almost certainly locked out of because this Pokemon gets egg moves)
• Ultra Beasts
• Event-only Pokemon (Spiky-eared Pichu, Cosplay Pikachu, Own Tempo Rockruff/Lycanroc-Dusk, etc.)
• Mega Evolutions
• Pokemon with specific form-changing abilities (Castform, Mimikyu, etc.)
• Levitate Pokemon (Gastly line, Misdreavus line, Unown, Vibrava/Flygon, Carnivine, etc.)
• Some cocoon-like Pokemon (Metapod, Kakuna, Pupitar, Silcoon, Cascoon); most of the rest have at least two abilities

Most of the rest of the Pokemon fall into a set I would call "demonstrator Pokemon", as these Pokemon all feature an ability that was introduced in that generation and was exclusive to them for at least that generation (and in a considerable number of cases, these abilities are still exclusive to them). Examples include Shedinja, Cofagrigus line, Archeops line, Zoroark line, Furfrou, and the Clawitzer line. Venomicon fails to fit into this category, as its entire concept is based on taking already-existing abilities that have not performed well in the CAP metagame.

Of course, there are a few exceptions. Turtonator's only ability is Shell Armor, which is neither exclusive nor new to it. I think this exception is the best flavor justification for Venomicon not receiving any flavor abilities. There are also Pokemon like Gengar, Vigoroth, Cherubi, Deino/Zweilous, Honedge/Doublade, and Grubbin, which each have only one ability that is not exclusive to them and is not new. However, they are also part of lines that do meet at least one of the patterns above, which likely had some influence on their own lack of abilities:

• Gengar is formerly a Levitate Pokemon, and its prevos still have Levitate.
• Vigoroth evolves from Slakoth and into Slaking, both of which are demonstrator Pokemon for Truant.
• Cherubi evolves into Cherrim, which is a demonstrator Pokemon for Flower Gift.
• Deino/Zweilous evolve into Hydreigon, which has Levitate.
• Honedge/Doublade evolve into Aegislash, which has a specific form-changing ability in Stance Change.
• Grubbin evolves into a Pokemon that meets the "demonstrator" criteria (Charjabug with Battery), which evolves into a Levitate Pokemon (Vikavolt).

There might be more exceptions I have missed somewhere. All of this is to say that I think there is a strong flavor incentive to add at least one flavor ability, and little competitive incentive to stop it from happening.

 

[Bloopyghost]

Siding with Flavor Ability for 30b. Not only because it is the most faithful option for its concept, but I’d also like to use Tornadus, Thunderus and Landorus as examples we can look at.

Besides Giratina, these three are the only Pokémon whose forms specifically alter abilities and stat distributions in addition to these forms only being interchangeable outside of battle. And these Pokemon can have a hidden ability in their base Incarnate forms, but can only have one ability in their Therian forms. So keeping with this trend as well (even if the genies change form with a key item rather than a held item), I’d say Flavor Ability for 30b.

 

[Reviloja753]

Going to add to the chorus and advocate for a flavor ability for 30b only, as it mirrors Giratina’s setup, and therefore is the most emblematic of the framework’s intentions. I honestly think that there is no flavor ability we could give 30b that would ever make it drop Stamina, especially considering the appeal of having a Stamina Pokémon with reliable recovery. Also, as others have mentioned, we managed to give a flavor ability to Cyclohm with abilities that are nowhere as impactful as Stamina, so I see no reason not to give 30b a flavor ability. I also disagree with the idea of giving no flavor abilities to either form due to there being very few Pokémon that are not actively showcasing new abilities, having or being part of a family with Levitate, or are legendaries which only have a single ability and no hidden abilities. I wouldn’t mind both forms getting a shared hidden ability, but I believe just giving 30b access to it is more symbolic of the framework so I prefer that.

 

[Astra]

I advocate for a flavor ability for Venomicon only for mostly the reason already mentioned above (mainly how it mirrors Giratina and how abilities are treated for other Pokemon for comparison), though I suppose that I would be fine with no flavor ability if it still is somewhat accurate and reasonable to actually happen in the main games and means that Tadasuke can finally rest his toes for this CAP process. A flavor ability for both formes is the only one I'm against just because of how I don't really see Venomicon-E having two abilities making sense as a forme change.

 

[1BluLizard]

I prefer a flavor ability for 30b only. This fits with the flavor of the framework and would still include the process of another ability without going against the flavor framework. I do prefer ability for neither over ability for both, since the 30i's design was made to show that it has Tinted Lens, and since its a form it should keep the ability that it has without the option to get a different one. An ability for neither would be less interesting and make less sense for flavor in my opinion, but it is an option.

 

[K. Roolest Shark]

I'd go for the flavor ability for 30b only much like how Altered Giratina has its own hidden ability. Also I can't really see any ability other than Tinted Lens on 30i and also not to mention Origin Giratina lacks hidden abilities too. Sounds like a repeat of the other people I know but honestly it's the best choice in my opinion.

 

[Jewvia]

I would go for either Flavor Ability for 30b only or No Flavor Ability. However, I would hope that the poll for the flavour ability itself will also include the option No Flavor Ability rather than putting this choice to a poll instead. It seems mostly unanimous to not give Epilogue form a second ability based on consistency with Giratina and even the Therians.

 

[Mova]

I would also go for Flavor Ability for Prologue only or nothing. Epilogue for sure doesn't need a Hidden Ability. It makes it more consistent with Giratina and the genies.

 

[LowenCraft]

I'm for FA for only 30b

 

[Tadasuke]

Alright pals, given the nearly unanimous decision amongst those who posted in this thread, we're going to forego any sort of poll and open up submissions for flavor abilities. Keep in mind that the ability we'll be picking is exclusively for Venomicon-Prologue, so any flavor reasoning that corresponds to the Epilogue form should be left out. Please double check that any ability you suggest follows the banlists in this thread's OP.

When submitting a flavor ability, it's highly important to keep the following questions in mind:

• Will this have any serious competitive use given its interaction with our typing, movepool, stats, etc?
• Will this in any way overshadow the primary ability?
• How can specific flavor aspects of this mon be used to justify a submission?

Happy submitting! I'll be back in 48-72 hours with another update.

 

[Panic Station]

As I said before in the discord, Power of Alchemy seems to be the best fit for a flavor ability on Venomicon-Prologue. Suitable for a tome full of arcane secrets and only has any competitive use in doubles (someone tell me if CAP Doubles is actually a thing or not). The only way it could be considered overshadowing Stamina is if we actually wanted Venomicon-Prologue to run any ability other than Stamina. EDIT: And, having been informed about the nonexistence of CAP Doubles, invent a new format.

 

[Tommaniacal]

I'll be submitting Liquid Ooze, it has few implications competitively and perfectly fits a book oozing out ink

 

[Earthflax]

Submitting Poison Point. It’s highly outclassed by its competitive ability if it sees use at all, and it fits the flavor well (namely, that of the poisonous book’s quill.)

 

[Da Pizza Man]

I would like to submit Magician. Given that Venomicon is meant to be a magical book, it just makes perfect sense for it to have this ability, plus the ability is pretty bad outside of extremely niche scenarios,, and Venomicon doesn't want to give up its item slot anyways.

 

[Astra]

Gonna go with the boring cookie cut option and submit Telepathy. It has no effect outside of Doubles, and I would say that it’s fitting for a flavor ability. Telepathy involves communication through means other than the senses known to us, and books are a means of communication. Considering that Venomicon is a magic book, I would say that it’s reasonable to see it communicating telepathically. Out of the option posted so far, though, Power of Alchemy is for sure my favorite.

 

[K. Roolest Shark]

Submitting Gooey. As Prologue Venomicon has a more goopy outer layer to it and on the book itself so I think it would be nice to have. Likely not going to be particularly useful when compared to Stamina so it works as flavor.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Submitting Gooey. As Prologue Venomicon has a more goopy outer layer to it and on the book itself so I think it would be nice to have. Likely not going to be particularly useful when compared to Stamina so it works as flavor.

Unfortunately I think Gooey would have a fair number of competitive implications. Given that Cotton Down was talked about a fair amount during movepool discussions (Granted Gooey is weaker since it only works with contact moves, but what it does is exactly the same) and how Speed is widely considered to be the most important stat in the game, it isn't exactly out of the question for people to want to use Gooey over Stamina as a way to have Venomicon form as a minor form of Speed Control at the cost of physical bulk.

 

[Bloopyghost]

I’d like to submit Overcoat. Nothing fancy. Immunity to sand and hail chip alongside powder moves is much too niche to be run over Stamina.

As for flavor, Ven’s hardcover could shield its pages from the elements, and also because it has an overcoat of ink.