CAP 30 - Part 11 - Moveset Discussion

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Quanyails

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CAP 30 So Far

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In this stage, we are determining the required and disallowed competitive moves by creating a list of approved movesets. The movesets will be decided based on the competitive needs and limitations of this project. We are not submitting full movepools at this time. There will be a later stage for movepool submissions (level-up sets, egg moves, etc) once the required and disallowed moves have been determined via the accepted movesets.

Moveset Discussion Rules & Guidelines

There should be five kinds of posts in the thread:
  • Moveset Archetype Submissions
  • Moveset Submissions
  • Moveset Edits/Option Submissions
  • General Commentary
  • Section Leader/Topic Leader Announcements/Updates
This means that no moves can be suggested or commented on unless they are part of a full competitive moveset submission or suggested as a additional option for one or more previous movesets. Any recommendations to disallow certain moves should only be in reference to moves contained in previously posted movesets.

The general flow of this thread should go like this:
  1. People post moveset archetypes.
  2. People post moveset submissions for these archetypes in a prescribed format (see below)
  3. Other people suggest to add/remove moves or other options to previously posted movesets (see below)
  4. Other people propose edits to the descriptive information with previously posted movesets
  5. Other people comment on the competitive pros and cons of previously posted movesets, additions/removals, and proposed edits
  6. Continuously over the course of the thread, the movepool leader updates the first post in the thread with the "currently accepted" movesets and other information related to the status of the intelligent community consensus (see below)
By the end of this discussion thread, we should have the following outputs:
  • The top post in the thread (maintained by the Movepool Leader) will contain a list of all edited, approved movesets
  • The top post will list controversial movesets and/or optional moves that need to be voted on by the community
Prohibited Moves:
Legendary Signature Moves are banned from discussion unless one (or more) is specifically allowed by the combined consensus of the TL and the Movepool Leader. The following moves are considered Legendary Signatures:

Aeroblast
Astral Barrage
Behemoth Bash
Behemoth Blade
Blue Flare
Bolt Strike
Crush Grip
Core Enforcer
Dark Void
Diamond Storm
Doom Desire
Dragon Ascent
Dynamax Cannon
Eternabeam
Fleur Cannon
Freeze Shock
Fusion Bolt
Fusion Flare
Geomancy
Glacial Lance
Glaciate
Heart Swap
Hyperspace Fury
Hyperspace Hole
Ice Burn
Judgement
Jungle Healing
Land's Wrath
Light of Ruin
Lunar Dance
Luster Purge
Magma Storm
Mist Ball
Moongeist Beam
Oblivion Wing
Origin Pulse
Photon Geyser
Plasma Fists
Precipice Blades
Prismatic Laser
Psycho Boost
Psystrike
Relic Song
Roar of Time
Sacred Fire
Searing Shot
Secret Sword
Seed Flare
Shadow Force
Spacial Rend
Spectral Thief
Steam Eruption
Surging Strikes
Sunsteel Strike
Techno Blast
Thousand Arrows
Thousand Waves
V-Create
Wicked Blow


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Moveset Submissions

Movesets should be posted in the following format:

Moveset Submission

Name: Agility Sweeper
Move 1: Agility
Move 2: Thunderbolt
Move 3: Energy Ball
Move 4: Earth Power / Focus Blast
Ability: Sheer Force
Item: Life Orb
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Timid / Modest
  • Agility doubles CAP X's speed, which allows it to sweep.
  • Because of CAP X's Electric typing, Thunderbolt can hit Water-types like Arghonaut and Toxapex very hard.
  • Energy Ball allows CAP X to break through common Ground-types which may look to switch into its Electric-type STAB, most notably Seismitoad and Hippowdon.
  • Earth Power lets CAP X hit Pokemon such as Excadrill, and Aegislash extremely hard, however, Focus Blast is also an option that allows CAP X to deal with Pokemon such as Equilibra and Ferrothorn if desired.
  • Life Orb's recoil is removed by Sheer Force and allows CAP X to hit even harder.
  • Timid is preferred as it allows CAP X to outpace Dragapult after it has used Agility, but Modest can be used for more breaking power, notably allowing CAP X to OHKO Toxapex.
Code:
[B]Moveset Submission[/B]

Name:
Move 1:
Move 2:
Move 3:
Move 4:
Ability: (optional)
Item: (optional)
EVs: (optional)
Nature: (optional)
[LIST]
[*]
[*]
[*]
[/LIST]
Please keep to the above format so the movepool leader can easily see which posts in the thread are proposing new moveset submissions, and can easily locate the information when updating the top post in the thread.

Ability, Item, EVs, and Nature are optional. All that is required are four moves, a name, and some descriptive information (in bullet form).

Any suggested moveset posted without any reasonable description will be deleted by the moderators. People should not spam movesets, post without checking the movesets already submitted, or post movesets without thinking them through.

Although we are not posting movesets in the full C&C analysis format, you should generally adhere to C&C standards where it makes sense. While there will not be excessively strict moderation on this, use common sense. Don't get too slash-happy with moves, no stupid names, use proper spelling and grammar, etc.

If you are unsure of the optimal ability, item, EVs, or nature -- you can leave it out and it can be edited in later over the course of the thread. By the end of the thread, every accepted moveset should be filled in completely. That doesn't mean we need to be 100% sure of every aspect of the moveset. It's fine if we go with our best guess and leave it to the playtest to optimize it.


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Moveset Edits/Option Submissions

Edits/options should be made by copying the most recent version of the moveset and description into an unattributed quote tags ([ QUOTE][ /QUOTE]). Then make any edits, additions, or replacements in bold text, removals should be in strike-through text. The most recent copy should taken from the top post or from the original submission post, depending on whichever one is most current.

Posters can and should comment on the reasoning and background for any proposed edits outside of Quote tags. Simple wording or spelling corrections do not need any explanation or commentary.

Additional move proposals must be made in the context of one or more movesets. The user cannot simply post "I suggest we add Taunt as an option to all non-choiced movesets", for example.


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Movepool Leader/Topic Leader Posts

The first post under the OP is reserved by the Movepool Leader, and will serve as the reference post for the current status of the discussion.

When the Movepool Leader determines that a moveset, option, or edit is accepted by intelligent community consensus, they will add/update a list of "Approved Movesets" in the first post. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add every submission to the first post automatically, simply because it was posted in the thread. The Movepool Leader SHOULD NOT add a submission to the first post if it was not actively accepted by intelligent community consensus. "Lack of any response" is not the same as "acceptance". As with all CAP discussion threads, the leader should always use their best judgement.

If a proposal has received significant intelligent feedback (positive or negative), but it has not yet reached consensus, the Movepool leader should add it to an "Under Consideration" list in the first post. If the thread ends with controversial items that can't reach consensus, they will go to a community poll. In most cases, the "Under Consideration" list should be comprised of full movesets or additional option proposals. Edits to the description of most movesets, probably will not require extensive discussion or polling.

As the Movepool Leader makes updates to the first post, they should also post announcements in the thread indicating what they have added or updated. This will allow active discussion participants to easily track the progress of the thread. The Topic Leader should also post regular feedback in the thread, like every other competitive discussion.
 
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Welcome to Moveset Submissions. I'm going to spend this first bit discussing how I envision this playing out.

We will begin with a short reevaluation of defining moves. Then, we will be doing formal submissions of movesets. Based on previous conversations and some test runs on the test server (more on that in a bit), 30b seems more up in the air moveset-wise than 30i, so I will first open moveset submissions for 30i only so that it is not immediately overshadowed by 30b. I will then also open submissions for 30b after a period of time, allowing for both forms to be discussed.

Regarding defining moves, here is a reminder of what we previously decided on:
Required: At least one of (Gunk Shot / Poison Jab / Sludge Bomb), at least one of (Brave Bird / Drill Peck / Hurricane / Air Slash), at least one of (Roost / Recover), Body Press
Optional: Taunt, Knock Off, Rapid Spin, Thunder Wave, Toxic, Ice coverage (at least one of Triple Axel / Ice Punch / Ice Beam), Fire coverage (at least one of Flare Blitz / Blaze Kick / Fire Blast / Heat Wave), Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Acid Armor, Coil

As well, here are the defining moves named by the stat submitters for each form. Note that these are not binding, just the suggestions of the submitters:
30b: Sludge Bomb, Hurricane, Ice Beam, Body Press, Roost
30i: Swords Dance, Brave Bird, Gunk Shot, Roost

Some questions:
  • How effective does Body Press currently look in the hands of 30b? Is there anything to watch out for regarding how either spread interact with Body Press?
  • Revisiting the Roost vs Recover question, how do the differences between the two moves affect each form? Would having both be too much?
  • Among the boosting options, which ones are the stat spreads in a position to take advantage of? How do their presence or absence play into what STABs we should have available?
  • Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?
  • Are there any other thoughts about the defining moves given by the stat submitters that have not been covered by the questions before?
This stage is more intended to be a way to reorient ourselves before we get into proper submissions, so I am not expecting to come to conclusions on everything in defining moves immediately. I am also not expecting to approve a whole lot in this beginning section alone, unless there is near-unanimous support for many moves. I'm tentatively giving 24 hours for discussion, although I can give more if needed.

One last note: the spreads are currently implemented on the test server (http://captest.psim.us). To use them, go to the teambuilder, click "New Team", then "Add Pokemon", then the Import button in the top right, and paste one of the following before clicking Save:
cap30bdapizzaman @ Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Stamina
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Sketch
cap30isnakerattler @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sketch
You can then change the EVs, nature, moves, and item (for 30b only) as you see fit. Be aware when building teams that 30b and 30i should not be on the same team, as this would violate Species Clause.
 
Reserving this post.

Body Press
Brave Bird
Drill Peck
Roost
Gunk Shot
Poison Jab
Imprison
Knock Off
Swords Dance
Coil
Stealth Rock
U-turn
Toxic
Thunder Wave
Hurricane
Sludge Bomb
Nasty Plot
Acid Armor
Earth Power
Mystical Fire

Note: some sets were approved with unapproved moves crossed out.
Name: Setup + 2 Attacks + Recovery
Move 1: Swords Dance / Coil
Move 2: Brave Bird
Move 3: Gunk Shot / Drill Peck / Knock Off
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Name: Scuffed Taunt + SD
Move 1: Imprison
Move 2: Swords Dance
Move 3: Roost
Move 4 : Brave Bird / Drill Peck
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Name: SubRoost
Move 1: Brave Bird
Move 2: Roost
Move 3: Substitute
Move 4: Swords Dance / Coil / Imprison
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
cap30isnakerattler @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Imprison
- Brave Bird
- Roost / Recover
- Stealth Rock / U-turn / Gunk Shot
cap30i @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off / Gunk Shot / Drill Peck
- Recover / Roost
- Thunder Wave
Name: Cleaner
Move 1: Brave Bird
Move 2: Gunk Shot
Move 3: Knock Off / Sucker Punch
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
Name: Imprison Utility Breaker
Move 1: Imprison
Move 2: Brave Bird
Move 3: Roost
Move 4: U-turn/Stealth Rock/Thunder Wave/Knock Off/Defog
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly
name: Pivot / Support
move 1: Brave Bird
move 2: U-turn
move 3: Roost
move 4: Toxic / Thunder Wave / Stealth Rock
ability: Tinted Lens
item: cap30item
evs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
nature: Jolly
Name: Coil Set-Up Sweeper
Move 1: Brave Bird/Drill Peck
Move 2: Coil
Move 3: Gunk Shot/Poison Jab
Move 4: Substitute/Knock Off/Roost
Ability: Tinted Lens
Item: cap30item
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Nature: Jolly

Name: Bulky Wincon
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Hurricane
Move 3: Body Press/Flamethrower Mystical Fire
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
Nature: Modest
Name: SpDef Nasty Plot
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Roost
Move 3: Hurricane
Move 4: Heat Wave Mystical FIre/Earth Power
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Calm
Name: Zetalz Deep State (Nasty Plot + 2 Attacks)
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Hurricane
Move 3: Earth Power / Mystical Fire
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 168 SpD / 92 Spe (or increase speed to outspeed Heatran)
Nature: Calm
Name: Zetalz Slow State
Move 1: Hurricane
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Nasty Plot
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 72 SpA / 188 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 5 Spe
Name: Acid Armor + Body Press
Move 1: Acid Armor
Move 2: Body Press
Move 3: Sludge Bomb / Mystical Fire
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Nature: Calm
name: Substitute + Acid Armor
move 1: Substitute
move 2: Acid Armor
move 3: Body Press
move 4: Roost / Sludge Bomb
ability: Stamina
item: Heavy-Duty Boots / Black Sludge
evs: 252 HP / 148 SpD / 108 Spe
nature: Calm
Name: 3 Attacks Spell Book
Move 1: Roost
Move 2: Sludge Bomb / Hurricane
Move 3: Mystical Fire/ Body Press
Move 4: Thunder / Hurricane / Scald
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Nature: Modest
Name: 3 Attacks + Roost
Move 1: Hurricane
Move 2: Earth Power
Move 3: Mystical Fire / Sludge Bomb
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 168 SpA / 92 Spe
Nature: Modest
Name: Stealth Rock
Move 1: Stealth Rock
Move 2: Hurricane / Heat Wave Mystical Fire
Move 3: Sludge Bomb / Hurricane / Knock Off
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 168 SpA / 92 Spe
Nature: Modest
Name: Zetalz Utility State (2 Attacks + Utility)
Move 1: Hurricane
Move 2: Earth Power / Mystical Fire
Move 3: Knock Off / Stealth Rock
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 168 SpA / 92 Spe (or increase speed to outspeed Heatran)
Nature: Modest
Name: Physically defensive Wall/Pivot
Move 1: Will-O-Wisp
Move 2: Body Press/Hurricane
Move 3: Hurricane/Sludge Bomb/U-turn/Knock Off/Stealth Rock
Move 4: Roost
Ability: Stamina
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 248 HP / 192 Def / 60 SpD
Bold Nature

Taunt
Recover/Milk Drink/Soft-Boiled/Slack Off
Rapid Spin
Speed boosting
Sucker Punch
Calm Mind
Amnesia
Cosmic Power
Fire coverage over 75 BP
Electric coverage over 75 BP
 
Last edited:

Astra

talk to me nice
is a Site Content Manageris a Top Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Top Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnus
Very quick midnight response before I go to bed.
How effective does Body Press currently look in the hands of 30b? Is there anything to watch out for regarding how either spread interact with Body Press?
Body Press seems to be useful enough for 30b with the Defense stat we're working with. I think it's enough to where it combined with Stamina shouldn't be too overwhelming as long as you play well around it. I doubt that 30i would be utilizing it, though, since it would have so many other better attacking options over it.
Revisiting the Roost vs Recover question, how do the differences between the two moves affect each form? Would having both be too much?
The most worthwhile discussion regarding Roost and Recover is that Roost gives the opponent more counterplay by making it harder to find opportunities to heal up against Pokemon with Ground-type moves. It shouldn't be too much of a obstacle for 30b because of its Speed, but it'll be more of an issue with 30i with how fast it is. Honestly, I would say that this would be up to whether or not we should give another obstacle for 30i alongside all of the other conditions it needs to get going, not to mention the amount of recoil it would be taking as well.
Among the boosting options, which ones are the stat spreads in a position to take advantage of? How do their presence or absence play into what STABs we should have available?
I don't really see 30b using any boosting moves over anything else it has access to. Acid Armor is probably the most likely one it would be running, but again, with how Stamina can build up so easily, it probably would be better for it to run something else. 30i can definitely find use with Swords Dance, as it was created with it in mind, though Coil can definitely be a possibility as well. Its Defense is at an already respectable number, meaning that getting an opportunity to boost, which is presumed to be hard with 30i, would be rewarded with making it even better. I don't think it would be a problem considering that the amount of recoil it may take can very well invalidate those Defense boosts.
Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?
I could see a very slight chance that 30b can manage to run a niche set with Ice coverage, but besides that, I doubt either forme would find any use with other forms of coverage, especially in 30i's case, since it'll already be nuking literally any switch-in with a boosted Brave Bird. Even if it has Flare Blitz, it'll still be taking recoil, and Blaze Kick would most likely be a worse option than Brave Bird. It would most likely rather run something like Knock Off or Rapid Spin, anyways.
 
  • How effective does Body Press currently look in the hands of 30b? Is there anything to watch out for regarding how either spread interact with Body Press?
  • Revisiting the Roost vs Recover question, how do the differences between the two moves affect each form? Would having both be too much?
  • Among the boosting options, which ones are the stat spreads in a position to take advantage of? How do their presence or absence play into what STABs we should have available?
  • Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?
  • Are there any other thoughts about the defining moves given by the stat submitters that have not been covered by the questions before?
Body Press works well with 30b with its good defense stat, and with Stamina it gets stronger fast, but it isn't more overwhelming then it should be with not having Stab with Body Press. 30i really can't do much with Body Press unless it decided to use Acid Armor, but even then it would be weak, and with Tinted Lens the coverage isn't necessary.
Roost letting Ground types hit 30i very hard, and 30b against Hippowdon, is a weakness in the long run because 30i really wants the recovery after Brave Bird recoil, but it leaves it vulnerable. It does make it lose its weakness to 3 types, but after the first or second time, its easy to predict and beat it. Recover would last more longevity to 30i, which could be good especially if its trying to set up Swords Dance.
30b could run Nasty Plot with its special pool, but Coil or Acid Armor could be more useful, because despite 30b's low attack, Hurricane only has 70% accuracy and very high defense. With a recovery move this would become strong fast, but the attack boost of Coil wouldn't be useful, so in general 30b probably wouldn't run a boosting move except maybe Acid Armor, but with recovery and Stamina it probably doesn't need that. 30i can run Swords Dance, which would make it very strong and able to sweep, although it would have to live a turn to get it up, and probably a turn of switching in, so it would not always be possible. With Tinted Lens, high attack, and Brave Bird and Gunk Shot, the doubled attack wouldn't really be needed all the time, but it would be an option. It could also run Coil to boost Gunk Shot's accuracy and give it some physical bulk and an attack boost without going overboard, and Brave Bird recoil makes it harder to live even after a boost, so it wouldn't get too strong.
30b would probably not run fire coverage or status, since it would want its 2 Stabs, recovery and Body Press. It could run something like Toxic, Thunder Wave, or Taunt, but it would most likely not do that. Fire Coverage on 30i doesn't really help it since it hits everything really hard anyway with Tinted Lens and strong Stab moves, so it could run Flare Blitz, but it would be less powerful then Brave Bird unless super effective. It could run Knock Off or Rapid Spin as an option to help its team if it can't do much to the opponent and doesn't want to switch, and to beat things like Toxapex and Blissey easier without their item.
Taunt on 30b might be too strong since it would let it get up free Stamina boosts from the opponent, possibly from Pokemon that can't hit it hard. Ice coverage , fire coverage, and utility moves could be useful but with only 4 move slots open, on both 30i and 30b it takes a move slot that would almost always be filled with certain moves like recovery, Brave Bird on 30i, and Body Press on 30b, they probably wouldn't see that much use despite being a decent option, just because they are outclassed by other moves.

30i specifically with Tinted Lens does not really need to run any coverage, especially with a boosting move, so with the defining moves right now it would basically always just run Brave Bird, Gunk Shot, Roost/Recover, and some boosting move, most likely Swords Dance. An option to change it could be to introduce moves that would be more valuable than a boosting move, since it would be hard to get up anyway. Swords Dance would still be a good option, but there could be another option for a move that would work well.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
30b would probably not run fire coverage or status, since it would want its 2 Stabs, recovery and Body Press. It could run something like Toxic, Thunder Wave, or Taunt, but it would most likely not do that.
I can't help but disagree with this notion honestly. In playtesting, Sludge Bomb honestly felt more like just another option that 30b could be using instead of a move that it needs to run, since most of the things you would be hitting with 30b already taking enough damage from Hurricane or Body Press. Granted I don't think its useless, as 2HKOing Clefable and nailing the Tapus on the switch is pretty nice, but its hard to say that it suffers from 4MSS in its current state.

I will expand on this post to answer the questions of the thread when I get out of work (which isn't for another few hours), but I sort of just wanted to get this off my chest right now.

Edit: Well as I promised, going to answer some of the questions

  • How effective does Body Press currently look in the hands of 30b? Is there anything to watch out for regarding how either spread interact with Body Press?
At the moment, Body Press looks to be quite effective with 30b. It feels effective enough that it is generally going to be always worth at least considering as a moveslot, if not just outright a default option for them, but at the same time it really doesn't feel overbearing at all, as while it does let 30b have a better matchup against Steel types in the tier, it doesn't outright demolish them until we get up a couple of Stamina boosts, which allows for adequate counterplay. I don't really in vision 30i getting too much use out of Body Press though, since Tinted Lens makes it incredibly redundant.

  • Revisiting the Roost vs Recover question, how do the differences between the two moves affect each form? Would having both be too much?
On 30b, the differences aren't too noticeable for the most part. I can really only think of three pokemon in the metagame who we are both faster than and run ground-type attacks at a semi-frequent basis (:Hippowdon: :Melmetal: :Equilibra:), and even those have caveats (Hippowdon is weak enough that we just wall it anyways if we are at decent enough HP thanks to Stamina boosts, Melmetal doesn't always run Earthquake, and Equilibra isn't super common right now). On 30i however, it's definitely quite noticeable because of our drastically increased speed, and as such the amount of mons that can exploit us giving up our immunity to ground for a turn increases tremendously.

Recover is obviously the stronger option, but I think Roost is worth exploring if we want to go with a weaker alternative so that we can give ourselves more freedom when it comes to picking our movesets. Going with both options in my opinion feels kinda pointless and not really worth exploring, but I honestly don't see any reason to disallow it.

  • Among the boosting options, which ones are the stat spreads in a position to take advantage of? How do their presence or absence play into what STABs we should have available?
30b actually appreciates Nasty Plot quite a bit, and I feel like people in the thread so far are sort of underselling its value (Which granted is like two people so that's not too big of a sample size). In testing, I found that having Nasty Plot on 30b actually to take on the role of a late-game sweeper fairly effectively, which I think is something that could definitely be used to allow it to stand out from a lot of different Flying-Types that are currently in the tier. It also didn't really feel super overbearing either, since our low speed and average special defense sort of felt like enough to prevent us from just getting a Nasty Plot and a bunch of Stamina boosts up and just outright 6-0ing most teams. I still think that 30b could perform a decent job without Nasty Plot, but I was kinda surprised about how much the move helped it out. I do think that if we go with Nasty Plot, we are going to need to be fairly careful with what coverage options we choose to go with, but apart from that, I don't see too many major downsides to going with it.

As for other options like Acid Armor and Coil, I'm not really convinced honestly. Acid Armor just feels redundant with Stamina and Coil doesn't really help us out all that much either apart from boosting our Hurricane accuracy (And while 70% is pretty bad, it's still perfectly manageable enough to be our main STAB attack even without a way to make it more accurate. This isn't really anything revolutionary though, seeing as how Pokemon like :Tornadus-Therian: and :Tomohawk: have been relying on it for years at this point).

30i obviously appreciates Swords Dance, given that was what snake_rattler built around with their spread, and I think we are weak enough that it's not too worrying if we decide to go with Swords Dance along with powerful stab options like Brave Bird and Gunk Shot. That being said, I wouldn't mind going with Coil as a weaker option instead, and while I do think that boosting Defense and Accuracy in addition to attack is nice, they sort of feel more like add-ons and even then we can't really fully take advantage of them if we decide to go with Brave Bird as our main physical Flying-Type attack (Our longevity is noticeably hurt thanks to Brave Bird recoil, and having Gunk Shot alongside Brave Bird feels kinda unnecessary).

Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?
Fire Coverage:

In terms of 30b, I deliberately left this out when I submitted my spread because I really don't like how it basically just almost completely overshadows Body Press (:Heatran: is basically the only reason it doesn't). Generally speaking, I feel as if 30b's ability to get past Steel-Types and not having a very good matchup against either of the Metal Birds in the tier are some of the things that help keep it in check, and Fire-Type coverage like Heat Wave and Fire Blast sort of negates all of that, and I feel as if it would be both too strong to have and arguably anti-concept as well (Since it means our ability matters less to our overall viability). I'm pretty much 100% against having this on.

In terms of 30i, I'm not completely against it like I am with 30b, but I don't really find it super necessary either, as I just don't think it would be all that useful. Most of the stuff we would be hitting with Flare Blitz takes enough damage from Brave Bird anyways, and Blaze Kick actually deals less damage to Steel-Types than Brave Bird unless we are either trying to hit :Ferrothorn: (Which while kinda nice, doesn't really feel super important to our overall viability) or we are backed by Sun support.

Status and Utility Options:

I actually don't really see 30b really going with too many options in this department honestly. I guess it could run something like Taunt or Knock Off, but I don't really like either of those options since the former sort of feels like it interacts with our ability too well and makes us too effective of a potential stallbreaker, and the later because it messes with :Slowking-Galar:, a fairly important counter for us.

30i on the other hand I can see a lot of different stuff though, because Brave Bird is good enough as our primary stab that it essentially just gives us two free slots to mess around with. Rapid Spin could make us a very nice hazard remover for Screens Hyper Offense that doubles as yet another sweeper for the team (Should we choose to go with Swords Dance or Coil), although its ability to run over faster offensive checks sort of makes me question if it would be too much or not, but if that's the case we could absolutely go with Defog instead which wouldn't have that issue. Knock Off could be another cool option as well, although like I said before I'm hesistant on it because I don't like how it interacts with 30b. Pivoting in the form of U-Turn could also be a pretty nice option as I feel that CAP30i can force enough mons to switch-out that it would be able to create momentum with it very well, and our inescapable hazard weakness alongside having to take constant recoil if we go with Brave Bird puts a timer on how many times we can do this as a means to balance it out.

Are there any other thoughts about the defining moves given by the stat submitters that have not been covered by the questions before?
The only thing I can really say is that Ice Beam feels kinda unnecessary on 30b, and in hindsight I definitely overstated its value when I submitted the spread. The main thing is that Ice Beam really only helps with two different Pokemon (:Garchomp: :Landorus-Therian:), both of which we beat anyways (Unless the former has Stone Edge which isn't super common, or the later has Smack Down which also isn't super common normally (Although people really love to use it in play testing, ya cheeky motherfuckers), and outside of that it just feels like a wasted moveslot. While I don't think its problematic by any means necessary, I don't think its really needed, and if somebody is able to make a convincing argument for why it shouldn't be allowed, I really wouldn't be super eager to argue against them.
 
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  • How effective does Body Press currently look in the hands of 30b? Is there anything to watch out for regarding how either spread interact with Body Press?
  • Revisiting the Roost vs Recover question, how do the differences between the two moves affect each form? Would having both be too much?
  • Among the boosting options, which ones are the stat spreads in a position to take advantage of? How do their presence or absence play into what STABs we should have available?
  • Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?
  • Are there any other thoughts about the defining moves given by the stat submitters that have not been covered by the questions before?
First question:
Body press in 30b seems pretty good, obiously synergizes with his ability, i think its one of his most prominent offensive moves, but in 30i, its not pretty good, body press atacks using the defense stat as thr attack stat, but it has more attack than defense, so its a little outclased by other moves, but in 30b, is really good

Second question:
Hmm, roost and recover have some good things and bad things in both forms, roost can save you from a superefective stone edge or some rock type attack that could ohko it, but welp, 30b is really phisicaly defensive and the majority of rock type moves are physical, but with ice type, then roost can really save you, but there is also one thing, it makes 30b and 30i get ohko by a lot of ground type moves, and landorus-therian is one of the mostly used mons, so it has a lot of good things, but a lot of bad things, and recover, welp, it makes you take the supereefective hits of rock and ice type, but it also can ignore earthquake and earth power, i think both moves are pretty good for cap 30 in general, i dont have a favorite, they are not too much in my opinion

Third question:
I think (this hurts me because its a flying type xD) that coil has the most advantage over all, makes his atacks like hurricane and gunk shot be more presice, and it also makes it more resistant to the majority of rock type moves, i can imagine a coil gunk shot set, can really become a threat to the opposing team if they dont have a fast special attacker, the 2nd best option in my opinion is swords dance, like coil but more debuffed, makes it go for other stab moves like poison jab... and thats all, because its almost the same with nasty plot, but this time, it has to change hurricane to air slash, if just nasty plot or swords dance could be choose for the moveset, that really could make one of the forms worse than the other

Fourth question:
I think fire coverage its, not so not nesessary, but its mostly not really needed, it can be just for ice types, the majority of his threats are resistant to fire, so its not really nessesary, at least tinted lens contrarests the resistnances,(Edit message: i was thinking about why magnezone and heatran counter cap 30 so goodly, and welp, i remembered they are steel type, and now i see that steel-type is a big counter to cap 30, and now i think a 50/50 about adding fire type moves to cap 30) but, it needs some status and utility moves, status to 30b and utility to 30i, 30b can easily become a fusion of mudsdale and toxapex with some status moves like toxic, thunder wave, etc, not that overpowered, but it could take the job of toxapex if you ask me, at least toxapex has his water/poison combination with scald stab, and welp, 30i its an UTILITY wallbreaker, why he shouldnt ger utility moves???, taunt is a great move for 30b, it stops completely mons like blissey and clefable to do something, and welp, i dont know a lot of utility moves xD, or at least not exactly, i think they are good fits, but some overpowered

Fifth question:
Hmm, idk, the thing i know, its that it needs something for electric types, electric types just counter it, rotom wash and heat counter body press and the physical atacks of 30i, tapu koko, zapdos and magnezone just ohko it, krillowatt blocks 30b, and a big etc, but welp, its a weakness that makes it more equilibrated =)
 
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MrDollSteak

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  • Revisiting the Roost vs Recover question, how do the differences between the two moves affect each form? Would having both be too much?
I think that in 99% of cases Roost is good enough for both Pokemon. That being said, Roost does technically make 30i worse into the Landorus-Therian matchup, as it can predict an Earthquake against us. For this reason it might be worth exploring having an alternate form of 50% recovery, however, as far as being a trade-off for Roost, it would make more sense for us to have to rely on one of the lower PP moves such as Moonlight or Morning Sun in order to not just directly outclass Roost on 30i.

  • Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?

I don't realistically believe that Fire coverage will be run by 30i, and I would much rather that 30b rely on Body Press to get through Steel types rather than a move like Flamethrower or Heat Wave, due to its synergy with Stamina. As for Status moves, the only one that might potentially be worth discussing further is Will-O-Wisp, as it is a really effective and punishing utility move when run by 30i in particular, as it can cripple some defensive switchins like Melmetal and Corviknight to quite an unhealthy degree. Thunder Wave is likely to be in a similar territory or position. Toxic, however, will realistically be fine on both forms.
 
Some comments on posts so far:
I could see a very slight chance that 30b can manage to run a niche set with Ice coverage
I would like to see some elaboration on why this chance is slight. Do you align with Da Pizza Man's opinion that we already generally beat the Pokemon that it hits, or are there other factors?

Ice coverage , fire coverage, and utility moves could be useful but with only 4 move slots open, on both 30i and 30b it takes a move slot that would almost always be filled with certain moves like recovery, Brave Bird on 30i, and Body Press on 30b, they probably wouldn't see that much use despite being a decent option, just because they are outclassed by other moves.
The reason why we chose look at the utility wallbreaker role for 30i was because Tinted Lens would allow us to compress moveslots, as coverage would not as important due to Tinted Lens removing resistances. I can understand the idea that we wouldn't want to run all of Ice coverage, Fire coverage, and utility moves on the same set, but I would like to see more elaboration if you think that it wouldn't commonly run even one of those.

I think fire coverage its, not so not nesessary, but its mostly not really needed, it can be just for ice types, the majority of his threats are resistant to fire, so its not really nessesary, at least tinted lens contrarests the resistnances,(Edit message: i was thinking about why magnezone and heatran counter cap 30 so goodly, and welp, i remembered they are steel type, and now i see that steel-type is a big counter to cap 30, and now i think a 50/50 about adding fire type moves to cap 30)
It is very likely (based on the current sentiment of this thread) that we will get Body Press, which already hits a number of Steels, including the ones you mentioned in Magnezone and Heatran (and Heatran is immune to Fire coverage). Given the general pushback against Fire coverage's necessity, I'm interested in hearing any more reasoning you have for including Fire coverage.

  • Revisiting the Roost vs Recover question, how do the differences between the two moves affect each form? Would having both be too much?
I think that in 99% of cases Roost is good enough for both Pokemon. That being said, Roost does technically make 30i worse into the Landorus-Therian matchup, as it can predict an Earthquake against us. For this reason it might be worth exploring having an alternate form of 50% recovery, however, as far as being a trade-off for Roost, it would make more sense for us to have to rely on one of the lower PP moves such as Moonlight or Morning Sun in order to not just directly outclass Roost on 30i.

  • Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?

I don't realistically believe that Fire coverage will be run by 30i, and I would much rather that 30b rely on Body Press to get through Steel types rather than a move like Flamethrower or Heat Wave, due to its synergy with Stamina. As for Status moves, the only one that might potentially be worth discussing further is Will-O-Wisp, as it is a really effective and punishing utility move when run by 30i in particular, as it can cripple some defensive switchins like Melmetal and Corviknight to quite an unhealthy degree. Thunder Wave is likely to be in a similar territory or position. Toxic, however, will realistically be fine on both forms.
Will-O-Wisp is not a defining move, but it seems like you are grouping it with Thunder Wave as "potentially unhealthy", so I'd like to get more thoughts on this. I would also like to hear more about the idea of having Roost and another form of 50% recovery.

Here's a few more questions to think about, along with the ones I posed in the opening post:
  • Besides our original roles of utility wallbreaker for 30i and tank for 30b, what other broad set archetypes could each form fulfill?
  • Are there any coverage types that might be too strong for either form?
Discussion has started a bit slow, so I'll be giving another 36 hours before we move on.
 

LucarioOfLegends

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Haven't had a chance to test, so take my words as mostly theorizing for the moment.

How effective does Body Press currently look in the hands of 30b? Is there anything to watch out for regarding how either spread interact with Body Press?
Gonna echo Estronic here. Body Press is a really solid option here for 30b, but not enough to snowball with Stamina if played right. 30i really just doesnt have the stats to use it when it has other coverage options or utility at its disposal.

Revisiting the Roost vs Recover question, how do the differences between the two moves affect each form? Would having both be too much?
For 30b these two are basically the same due to our low speed, but for 30i I think Recover becomes the superior option. Not being able safely heal on Ground-types is kind of a pain in a mon that already has difficulty with surviving, and 30i would rather just not take attacks with its bulk as opposed to reducing their damage through landing status. I'm impartial really to if both are added, but I would almost always choose Recover.

Among the boosting options, which ones are the stat spreads in a position to take advantage of? How do their presence or absence play into what STABs we should have available?
I was initially completely against setup on 30b as a slots deal but I think its less of an issue than I initially thought since Flying/Fighting coverage is very solid as is. I think that Coil is still mostly redundant for it since we already have Stamina to boost our Body Press damage. Nasty Plot does intrigue me though.

30i does have Swords Dance built in and I think an SD set would work well with it, but I remain a skeptic until I can see the +2 isn't overwhelming. If it is and we still want setup Coil (or Bulk Up if you are a rebel) should also do good as an alternative. Not much else to say past that though.

Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?
I see Fire-type coverage at this point to be almost entirely redundant for 30b, and moderately unnecessary for 30i. 30b relies on Body Press to get past Steel-types and was designed with that in mind. Suddenly giving it an option to bypass Corviknight and only really getting holed out by Heatran is kind of dumb. For 30i Fire-type coverage really isn't needed when we are going to be dealing so much damage with Tinted Lens Brave Birds anyways. Seems like a moderate waste of a slot when you would rather have something that isn't overlapping massively with your main STAB option.

Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp do certainly raise red flags as they could allow 30i and 30b to drop their stops (30i likes T-Wave since it can make it so faster checks like Weavile and Syclant can no longer win the 1v1 and it has 2 coin flips worth of chance to just stop them from doing anything, Wisp for 30b basically makes Corviknight lose the war of attrition and halts the more physical checks) but its too early to fully tell. Toxic though should be fine since we are generally stopped by Steel-types.
 
It is very likely (based on the current sentiment of this thread) that we will get Body Press, which already hits a number of Steels, including the ones you mentioned in Magnezone and Heatran (and Heatran is immune to Fire coverage). Given the general pushback against Fire coverage's necessity, I'm interested in hearing any more reasoning you have for including Fire coverage.
  • Besides our original roles of utility wallbreaker for 30i and tank for 30b, what other broad set archetypes could each form fulfill?
  • Are there any coverage types that might be too strong for either form?
My question:
Welp, yes, body press is for the mayority of steel-type mons that counter 30b, but for 30i, body press is not so viable, the biggest problem is that 30i is an physical attacker, not special, and the mayority of fire type moves are special, blaze kick is the best option for physical fire coverage, but i dont think its really nesessary, but welp, its possible to add, or blaze kick, or flare blitz, i think flare blitz its also a good option, but how i just said (and everyone said), fire coverage is not needed, and in fact, it could loose some counters with fire coverage
First question:
30b can really stall physical atackers because of stamina, toxic and roost/recover, and it can resist x4 close combat, the most used fighting type attack (i think), and if it didnt was because of the item restriction of 30i, it could be a great choiced attacker, but welp, its an item form, so it cant use items, i cant really see it like anything else than an utility mon, but i can see it a little, like a sweeper, with tinted brave bird, it can deal a lot of damage, but it can be easily countered by the x4 resistant magnezone, and other steel and electric type mons
Second question:
Ground type to both, the most prominent counters to cap 30, are steel and electric types, if you give it a ground type move (that i dont see probable because its a flying type), welp, it could have almost no counters
 
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  • Besides our original roles of utility wallbreaker for 30i and tank for 30b, what other broad set archetypes could each form fulfill?
With 30b's considerable 85/113 physical bulk, solid defensive typing (including 4x resistances to Fighting, Bug, and Grass), and Stamina to deter physical attacks even more, the role of defensive pivot seems inevitable even with no pivot moves.
 

Da Pizza Man

Pizza Time
is a Pre-Contributor
  • Besides our original roles of utility wallbreaker for 30i and tank for 30b, what other broad set archetypes could each form fulfill?
Well right away, I would argue that both forms, especially 30b, make pretty nice pivots even without access to any pivoting moves at the moment. Lectyrs already talked briefly enough on the defensive side of things for 30b, but I think 30i also doesn't do that bad of a job either even if it definitely has a lot less defensive utility than 30b (Not as bulky, worse defensive ability, unavoidable stealth rock weakness, and its main STAB move has recoil).

Both forms also can be quite good set-up sweepers as well, with 30b being more of a bulky set-up sweeper that I can imagine seeing more on bulky offense teams and 30i being a fast set-up sweeper that I can see on hyper offense teams. This obviously depends whether or not we give them access to boosting moves though (Nasty Plot for 30b, Swords Dance/Coil for 30i), so this one is definitely more up in the air.

  • Are there any coverage types that might be too strong for either form?
I already mentioned that I don't really like Fire Coverage on 30b but think its fine on 30i in my other post, so I don't really think I need to repeat my points on that topic, but I might as well bring it up just because its relevant to the question at hand.

In terms of coverage types that would be too much for both forms, like Gaboswampert already said, Ground would be too strong on both forms.

30b:

Not only does this have the same problem I have with Fire Coverage to an even worse extent (I can at least see a solid reason for going with Body Press over Heat Wave in that you can deal with :Heatran: easier, even if it is mostly overshadowed. I just can't see any for going with Body Press over Earth Power though), but I think it does too good against our non-Steel Checks/Counters as well. Giving us access to super-effective coverage against :Slowking-Galar: and :Toxapex: doesn't feel like the greatest idea, since while they can potentially deal with us anyways, it does sort of work to limit what options we can go with (If you like Knock Off (As stated prior I don't but I could see an argument for it, and this is just an example) then now you have to suddenly deal with our improved ability to get over Galarian Slowking). I also don't really like how it sort of devalues Sludge Bomb (Whose usefulness is sort of already being put into question) by giving us something that limits the ability for fast electric types (:Tapu Koko: :Zeraora: :Krilowatt:) to switch in on us and deal with Steel Types at the same time.

30i:

While Earthquake funny enough does less damage than Brave Bird to a lot of Steel types, the difference isn't super noticeable (200 v 216) and it also doesn't have any recoil so it helps with our longevity as well (Which is a bit of a concern since I kinda would like for us to have to deal with the problems coming from Brave Bird's recoil if we want to get over bulky steel types). It also basically flips our matchup against :Magnezone: completely on its head. Magnezone is interesting since it is one of the few pokemon in the game, and the only one who is relevant in the current metagame, who truly does resist 30b's STAB, and as such I think it would be appropriate to keep it as a hard check or even just a counter to 30i. Earthquake just flat out OHKOs it, and even weaker options like Earth Power and Bulldoze do enough to keep it from being a reliable answer to us. There is also a strong argument that it can be considered anti-concept as well since it hits many of the stuff we rely on our ability to deal with for super-effective damage anyways, thus demphasizing the importance of Tinted Lens to our overall viability.

Not too many other types of coverage really concern me all that much at the moment though, outside of maybe Electric on 30b (Don't like how it interacts with Pex and the Metal Birds too much, but that doesn't seem like a super big reason to sound the alarm, and apart from that it seems fine at the moment).
 
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snake

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Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?
A side note: I honestly think that this CAP30i spread would really appreciate Knock Off. However, I know there are concerns over Knock Off on CAP30b, and I don't want Knock Off to be a dealbreaker for my spread, so I'm willing to let that play out in movesets.
I don't think Knock Off has been properly addressed in the thread yet. If CAP30i is going to run a coverage move, it'd either need very high base power or be, frankly, Knock Off. Giving CAP30i Knock Off would fully cement itself as a "utility breaker" and would still work very well with boosting, which was popular amongst the stat submissions for CAP30i. Because Knock Off deals damage, it compresses having a non-recoil-inducing move on CAP30i and a utility move into one slot, alongside the boosting move of choice, Recover/Roost, and Brave Bird. There's also an opportunity cost with choosing Knock Off over Gunk Shot, given how much stronger Gunk Shot is. I don't view this as a negative though, as it should vary CAP30i's playstyle a little bit.

From my observations, most hesitations around Knock Off have revolved around CAP30b, which are very valid. Namely, Knock Off hits Galarian Slowking, which is supposed to be a consistent check to CAP30b. I would like to point out that CAP30b itself is still going to have a rough time against Galarian Slowking.

252 SpA (base 118) Crobat Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Slowking-Galar: 120-142 (30.4 - 36%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0- Atk (base 70) Crobat Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Slowking-Galar: 78-92 (19.7 - 23.3%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

And in return, Galarian Slowking can set a Future Sight that will undoubtedly force CAP30i out. Also I'm kinda doubtful that CAP30i will be running max Special Attack EVs anyway.

Here are the main takeaways:
  • Giving CAP30i Knock Off is one of the direct ways we can make it a utility breaker, especially if we want to give CAP30i Swords Dance or Coil.
  • Knock Off would provide some variance to the Boosting Move / Brave Bird / Gunk Shot / Roost set that's been commonly assumed for CAP30i.
  • Knock Off might make Galarian Slowking a less consistent check, but it otherwise seems ok on CAP30b.
 

quziel

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Here's a few more questions to think about, along with the ones I posed in the opening post:
  • Besides our original roles of utility wallbreaker for 30i and tank for 30b, what other broad set archetypes could each form fulfill?
Thanks to our high base speed, 30i is going to naturally lean into both Cleaner and Sweeper roles, if given the tools. Sweeper is a more contentious one, as it really does have the potential to run away with the game, but the moveslot compression offered by Tinted Lens, and the Toxic immunity offered by Poison mean that it could very effectively lean into that role. A Pivot role is also available given our high speed, but given our SR weakness I doubt it would excel.

30b is probably at its strongest when leaning into a Sweeper role as well, as Stamina, Toxic Immunity and high defenses make it nigh perfect in that archetype, aka deny CM please. That said, I do fear this could lead it to being too strong. 30b is also going to excel when leaning into a Wall role.

  • Are there any coverage types that might be too strong for either form?
I would like to force 30i to rely on Tinted Lens to deal with most Steel types. Any physical Fire, Ground, or Fighting coverage is something I would prefer to be disallowed to it. Frankly 30i is unlikely to need coverage in general given Tlens Flying.

30b is unlikely to be made broken by coverage moves, but I would be wary about specifically Ice coverage given that Landorus-Therian is a notable spdef pivot currently. Knock Off is the only coverage move here aside from Ice that worries me.


Discussion has started a bit slow, so I'll be giving another 36 hours before we move on.
 

spoo

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How effective does Body Press currently look in the hands of 30b? Is there anything to watch out for regarding how either spread interact with Body Press?
Body Press seems underwhelming on 30b to me, but likely still a necessary move. We have a decent enough Defense stat to where we'll actually get some mileage out of Body Press, but ultimately it's a fairly weak non-STAB move + we don't know if 30b will even run defensive EVs as of now. I suspect we'll still run it on our main set as coverage for Steel-types that also hits Heatran (opposed to Fire-type coverage), but I don't imagine it'll be anything we have to watch out for.

Revisiting the Roost vs Recover question, how do the differences between the two moves affect each form? Would having both be too much?
Recover is the objectively better option; I have no issue giving out both moves (Recover is competitively better and Roost is fine flavor), but if we were to give out only Roost it would likely be on the grounds of "the weaker option makes a more interesting product / we're already quite strong and the weaker option would be more balanced" or something similar, and I don't really buy into either of those arguments right now.

Among the boosting options, which ones are the stat spreads in a position to take advantage of? How do their presence or absence play into what STABs we should have available?
Boosting is a really interesting conversation here. I don't think either SD or NP should bar us from giving out BB or Hurricane, respectively; I highly doubt they would be broken in conjunction with each other. With respect to 30b specifically, I think people shouldn't be so fast to discount boosting options. While typing this out, quziel made a point above which I really agree with, that being our typing + immunity to toxic + good bulk + stamina encourages us to stay in for as long as possible, ie boosting could be really good. I suspect CM is too strong, but NP is a very interesting option I would like to explore.

I feel that it's important at this stage to ask ourselves "what can we do that other Pokemon can't," or "how are we really going to find ourselves on a team." As a wall / bulky pivot, 30b would be a bulky Flying-type in a tier with no shortage of good ones, and a bulky Poison-type competing with Toxapex and Galarking of all things –– in my (limited) attempts to build with 30b as a straight wall, it just felt super weird. NP could give us a cool niche (although we'd competing for a slot against NP torn which still isn't ideal) and I'm kind of leaning into that route over a standard wall build, though that could end up quite successful as well.

Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?
I doubt 30i will really use any coverage that isn't Knock Off (snake's post is good btw), and I think 30b will prefer Fighting > Fire coverage to hit Heatran. Thunder Wave could be okay on 30i to cheese through checks & counters, but I've yet to test / face it myself so it's hard to say. For the most part, Twave is just an inferior Taunt; ie, SD + Twave would probably be okay, while SD + Taunt scares me a lot. Taunt by itself could be great, though, and it's really just a matter of "do we want to be an SD sweeper/cleaner or Taunt abuser," because I think both routes are valid but would likely be too much on the same set.

Lastly, I do just want to raise the question of Sleep moves. I feel that Sleep would likely be too strong on either form –– it probably should have been a defining move if we wanted to use it at all –– but if there is any concern of us being too weak, Sleep would definitely help fix that + give us a niche over the competition (again, there's a lot of competition). I am leaning against Spore/etc right now, but figured I would at least bring it up since I haven't seen any talk of it so far.

Besides our original roles of utility wallbreaker for 30i and tank for 30b, what other broad set archetypes could each form fulfill?
I touched on a sweeper role for 30b, but a sweeper / cleaner role for 30i also looks very promising. Really just echoing quziel's thoughts here.

Are there any coverage types that might be too strong for either form?
Ice coverage on 30b is something I think would be fine, if not outright beneficial for us; I don't agree that we should preserve Lando as a threat because it literally can't touch us outside of Stone Edge (who runs that) and Knock. If Lando really wants to Knock 30b, too, it would be at risk of tanking a Hurricane switching in + one more clicking Knock + giving 30b at least one Stamina boost, so I'm super fine with just leaning into beating it. It would also let 30b counter non-Stone Edge Garchomp, which is very high value and helps give us a niche over other bulky Flying-types. I don't see 30i wanting to run any coverage other than STABS + Knock, and I don't think there's any coverage that would push 30b over the edge, so I'm going to tentatively say that we don't have to be afraid of coverage options at this stage.
 
The reason why we chose look at the utility wallbreaker role for 30i was because Tinted Lens would allow us to compress moveslots, as coverage would not as important due to Tinted Lens removing resistances. I can understand the idea that we wouldn't want to run all of Ice coverage, Fire coverage, and utility moves on the same set, but I would like to see more elaboration if you think that it wouldn't commonly run even one of those.
While you could run coverage and they could be useful in some cases, Tinted Lens makes Brave Bird and Gunk Shot deal basically the same damage as most super effective moves even if the 2 stabs are resisted because of Tinted Lens. There can be some more power from something like super effective Flare Blitz or Triple Axel, but the power isn't that huge, and generally the difference isn't big enough to warrant a different move. Coverage isn't bad and can be on the movepool but it taking a move slot isn't ideal especially with Swords Dance. Ice Coverage is better if one is taken, but I don't think it would be as useful as its other moves anyway with things like Stabs, set up moves, recovery, and Knock Off.
0 Atk Crobat Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctozolt: 204-242 (63.5 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arctozolt: 184-216 (57.3 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Sharp Beak Tinted Lens Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 124-146 (30.1 - 35.5%) -- 31.6% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Crobat Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Melmetal: 138-164 (33.5 - 39.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 Atk Crobat Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 168-198 (47 - 55.4%) -- approx. 72.3% chance to 2HKO
0 Atk Poison Barb Tinted Lens Crobat Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hippowdon: 144-172 (40.3 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

  • Are there any coverage types that might be too strong for either form?
Ground type coverage lets 30b hit Pokemon like Galarian Slowking, Heatran, Toxapex, and a ton of steel types super effectively, and since those are mons that could normally beat it, giving it access to Stamina and coverage for a lot of its checks and counters would make it very strong.
Ground coverage has the same problem on 30i, letting it hit a ton of things super effectively that would normally beat it, although this is less of an issue since it hits them hard anyway with Tinted Lens. Basically I agree with what Da Pizza Man and Gaboswampert said.
 
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Astra

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I would like to see some elaboration on why this chance is slight. Do you align with Da Pizza Man's opinion that we already generally beat the Pokemon that it hits, or are there other factors?
I would say that my opinion does have that similar reasoning to Da Pizza Man's opinion, though another reason that I would like to bring up is that Ice coverage would most likely act as a stronger more reliable and option over 30b's potential options over certain matchups. For example, if 30b is up against Landorus-T, Ice Beam would obviously be more useful if it's at full health, but if it's already been weakened, it would be safer and stronger option over Hurricane and Sludge Bomb, respectively. I guess you can argue the same thing with Fire coverage and Body Press, but Body Press is already going to be doing decent amounts of damage to Steel-types even without Stamina boost, so Fire coverage doesn't seem too necessary unless we want to consider something like Mystical Fire with its Special Attack drops.

Besides our original roles of utility wallbreaker for 30i and tank for 30b, what other broad set archetypes could each form fulfill?
With how much recoil 30i would be receiving throughout an entire game, I think it also work as a late-game cleaner when its checks and counters have been weakened enough or taken out of the game to allow to come in without needing to consider the conditions it needs compared to having it come in during the middle of a game. I'm struggling a little bit to think of what other role 30b can fulfill, though. My best proposal would be a defensive wall, but its initial Defense doesn't seem high enough, and it's not like those Stamina boost stay when it switches out.

Are there any coverage types that might be too strong for either form?
I feel like this has been covered pretty well already. Ground coverage seems to hit a large group of Pokemon that should be able to take 30b on decently well otherwise, so we should be cautious in terms of that. Knock Off is also something that may be overwhelming on either forme as well. Besides that, I can't really think of anything else.
 

Rabia

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GP & NU Leader
  • How effective does Body Press currently look in the hands of 30b? Is there anything to watch out for regarding how either spread interact with Body Press?
  • Revisiting the Roost vs Recover question, how do the differences between the two moves affect each form? Would having both be too much?
  • Among the boosting options, which ones are the stat spreads in a position to take advantage of? How do their presence or absence play into what STABs we should have available?
  • Fire coverage, as well as most status and utility options, went unmentioned between both stat submitters. In the context of our stats, will any of these moves make either form too strong, be good fits, or not have much use?
  • Are there any other thoughts about the defining moves given by the stat submitters that have not been covered by the questions before?
Body Press with Stamina is a really good combination if 30b is given the turns necessary to get several boosts. Pokemon like Ferrothorn, Equilibra, and Corviknight become much shakier answers in the long fight against 30i as the damage continuously increases. The addition of a reliable recovery move makes this interaction even more intriguing to me; if you take Mudsdale as an example, the biggest issues it faces are a reliance on Wish support to stay healthy, poor Speed, and a weakness to Knock Off (losing Leftovers is unfortunate long-term). Combined, these issues make it much harder to actually stack up Defense boosts and take games over. With 30b, the longevity issue is wholly solved, and I think its ability to function as a secondary wincon of sorts will be interesting.

The debate of Recover vs Roost vs both is not that important to me. I think the main debate here would be how well we want Ground-types to match into 30. If you go with Recover, then 30 isn't worried as much about being exploited by a foe like Garchomp or Landorus-T (yeah they could set up, but you're not being threatened with damage on that specific turn). Roost opens you up to getting smashed by a really strong STAB attack. I sort of prefer it for that reason because having situational counterplay built into 30's kit is a good thing I feel.

Setup moves are pretty straightforward here: 30b should be using Nasty Plot if it gets a boosting option---maybe Coil could have some fringe use, but I really doubt it---and 30i should be using Swords Dance or Coil (or another Attack-boosting move). The attacking stats of both forms are so juxtaposed that there isn't really much, if any, room for overlap here.

I honestly don't view Fire-type coverage as too useful for either form. I think between Body Press on 30b and Tinted Lens on 30i that their matchups into Steel-types will be naturally acceptable and that adding more coverage gives too much cheese potential in situations that it shouldn't have that. I think status moves do deserve some extra discussion on 30b because focusing wholly into "how do we make this Pokemon sweep with Body Press + Stamina" is a very limited perspective that doesn't fully take advantage of the kit as outlined so far. I think looking into status moves like Thunder Wave and Toxic would work well here.
 
A few conclusions before we move on:

I feel fairly confident in immediately approving Body Press. It's concept-relevant, the stat spread was built with it in mind, and general opinion in the thread of it has been fairly positive, so it seems like a shoo-in.

I am less confident on the Roost vs Recover debate. The general sentiment is that Roost opens 30i up to Ground-type attacks from slower Pokemon, which acts as an additional balancing tool, while Recover is better for not leaving that weakness open. There doesn't seem to be a very strong majority for either one (or giving both), so I'll be leaving the question open for now.

Fire coverage as been named as unnecessary and conflicting with Body Press. Ice coverage hasn't gotten a lot of discussion, but there have been a mix of opinions among the discussion that has happened. The listed utility moves (Knock Off, Taunt, Rapid Spin) and status moves (Thunder Wave, Toxic) have all drawn interest for how they could possibly be used, although Taunt has also drawn worry that it could be too strong in combination with setup. For setup, Nasty Plot has been the primary move of choice for 30b, while Swords Dance and Coil have been pointed towards for 30i.

I've also decided to shift the direction of this stage a little, in light of this Policy Review thread. Rather than completely opening moveset submissions, I'll be directing discussion around the archetypes that have been submitted so far. This is what we have so far from the thread:

30i: utility wallbreaker, offensive pivot, cleaner, setup sweeper
30b: tank, defensive pivot, setup sweeper, wall

For 30i, I've decided to collapse the wallbreaker, pivot, and cleaner sets into one archetype, as these sets will likely extremely close to each other. The setup sweeper set could potentially look different, so it will be its own archetype.
For 30b, I've done something similar by collapsing the tank, wall, and pivot sets into one archetype. Again, I've separated setup sweeper as its own archetype.

We'll be starting with 30i and the "cleaner/breaker/pivot" archetype. If a set leans towards one aspect of this archetype, you can title it as that aspect. I'd like to see full sets to start off in order to establish as baseline, although as discussion goes on and more sets are submitted, you are free to suggest individual moves as modifications to existing sets.
 

Astra

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Going to be starting this off with the most basic set 30i could possibly run.

cap30i @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Coil / Swords Dance
- Roost / Recover
- Rapid Spin / Knock Off / Taunt / Thunder Wave / Toxic / Substitute

This is a very standard set for 30i that can most likely work as either a wallbreaker, setup sweeper, or late-game cleaner. Brave Bird combined with either Coil or Sword Dance makes 30i an absolute nuke to quite literally everything bar maybe Magnezone, and Roost is pretty much a necessity given the amount of recoil it'll be taking. Given that it has a good amount of conditions for it to come in and find a free turn, it could easily result in a free KO with setup; on the other hand, once its main concerns have been weakened or eliminated, it can come in late-game much more easily and may not need to use up a turn to set up. For its last slot, I just threw all of its potential utility moves together since it can find some use for all of them, some more than others. Rapid Spin, Knock Off, and Taunt seem to be the most useful, and I could justify Rapid Spin being a little dangerous for allowing it to outspeed its would-be offensive checks. I also listed Substitute as a potential option thanks to how useful it can be on the same turn as the foe switches out, allowing 30i to get off a free Brave Bird or set up. The only issue I see with it, though, it that it HP reduction will stack up a lot with the recoil it'll already be facing, though being able to freely heal up with Roost with Substitute up is also always an option. Running Gunk Shot or Poison Jab instead could be an option so that you won't need to suffer the recoil against Fairy-types like Clefable and Tapu Fini, though I've yet to determine the usefulness in that over its other options.

Edit: Jumped the gun a little bit with a setup set, so my bad for that. Regardless, I suppose that moveslot can be filled with an additional utility move or secondary STAB, though I'm not entirely sure how optimal that'll be compared to other options.
 
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quziel

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Yo, for "fast utility breaker" I think the following is very cool.

cap30isnakerattler @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Imprison
- Brave Bird
- Roost / Recover
- Stealth Rock / U-turn / Gunk Shot

Set should be apparent, but Imprison is a lower power, but more targeted version of Taunt. Choice of recovery is based on whether we want the set to take on Pex or Corv better. Last slot is optional, would not hate SR being denied, but it acts as a pseudo taunt vs stuff like Lando. U-turn is probably not that smart for us to include, but listing it here as it would technically allow us to fully cteam corv. Gunk Shot is the safe option, and is the lowest added power level.
 
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Rabia

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GP & NU Leader
cap30i @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Roost
- Taunt / Imprison / Defog / Toxic

This is literally "utility Crobat but my Brave Birds are the bravest of them all." The first three moves are explanatory enough, but I think there's an awful lot of options you could do in the last slot. Taunt has some people questioning its power level, and I think it's a bit unwarranted. Most of the potential targets for Taunt would include neutral switch-ins like Toxapex, Slowbro, and Ferrothorn that switch into and potentially force out cap30i with the threat of status. I think there are valid concerns about shutting down recovery from some of these Pokemon, particularly the ones that can't rely on Regenerator for recovery, but a fair few would be hard pressed to recover vs cap30i in the first place. Corviknight is really the only switch-in that gets hard punished by this interaction. I do want to bring up Imprison like quziel did because it's functionally the same albeit without shutting down every status move possible. Other just generally nice utility options I could see finding their way onto cap30i are Defog and Toxic because... Crobat but built different.
 

spoo

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CAP Co-Leader
cap30i @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Knock Off / Gunk Shot / Drill Peck
- Recover / Roost
- Thunder Wave

BB / recovery is self explanatory, Knock Off leans into "utility breaker" and is very good but doesn't break our power level, Gunk Shot / Drill Peck are no-recoil STAB options which can be slotted over Knock pretty easily, and Thunder Wave is a less reliable form of denying recovery a la Taunt that lets you power through stuff eventually. Fairly standard "utility breaker" build –– not reinventing the cap30i wheel but I think something like this should be good for our purposes.
 

snake

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CAP Co-Leader
cap30i @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- Coil / Swords Dance
- Roost / Recover
- Rapid Spin / Knock Off / Taunt / Thunder Wave / Toxic / Substitute

cap30i @ cap30item
Ability: Tinted Lens
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Roost
- Taunt / Imprison / Defog / Toxic
I know we're not supposed to discuss setup quite yet, but my concerns over Taunt involve setup. CAP30i is in a unique position (due to Tinted Lens) to be able to run a set that's along the lines of Setup / Brave Bird / Taunt / Recovery, and I'm not sure whether or not that moveset is too strong. As evident by my stat submission, I want to see CAP30i use Swords Dance, so I'm very hesitant about including Taunt before discussing how Taunt interacts with setup.

Other than that, I don't really have many issues with the rest of the moves included. Imprison is really cool, and I'm glad that Knock Off is seeing some support so far.
 
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