Metagame Camomons

in the hills

spreading confusion
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Camomons Viability Rankings
S Rank

S

:mew: Mew [Water/Ground, Steel/Flying, Water/Fairy, Water/Flying, Electric/Flying, Water/Electric, etc]
Tornadus-Therian [Fighting/Flying, Dark/Poison, Fire/Flying, Dark/Fighting]

A Rank
A+

Clefable [Electric/Fairy, Poison/Dark, Fire/Fairy
Hydreigon [Fire/Ground, Ground/Water, Ground/Steel, Dragon/Steel, Water/Dragon, Poison/Dark, etc]
Landorus-Therian [Bug/Fighting, Bug/Ground, Dark/Ground, Bug/Steel]
Latias [Water/Poison, Water/Dragon, Water/Electric, Fire/Poison, Electric/Poison, Electric/Ghost, etc]
Zeraora [Electric/Fairy, Steel/Flying, Electric/Flying, Fighting/Flying, Electric/Fighting]

A
Arcanine [Normal/Fairy, Normal/Fire, Normal/Dark]
Garchomp [Water/Ground, Ground/Steel, Dragon/Steel, Water/Steel, Water/Dragon, Water/Poison]
Heracross [Normal/Ghost, Normal/Dark, Fighting/Dark]
Latios [Dragon/Water, Water/Electric, Dragon/Ghost, Dragon/Electric]
Pheromosa [Fighting/Ice, Bug/Fighting, Fighting/Poison, Fighting/Dark]
Rillaboom [Grass/Fighting, Grass/Ground, Grass/Dark]
Spectrier [Dark/Ghost]

A-
Blissey [Normal/Ghost, Normal, Normal/Psychic, Normal/Fairy]
Cresselia [Fairy/Poison, Fairy/Ghost, Fairy/Electric]
Entei [Normal/Fire]
Heatran [Fire/Ground, Steel/Ground, Fire/Steel]
Dusk Form
Lycanroc-Dusk [Fighting/Dark, Dark/Steel, Dark/Fairy]
Magearna [Steel/Fairy, Electric/Fairy, Steel/Ghost]
Reuniclus [Steel/Ghost, Steel/Psychic, Steel/Fairy]
Salamence [Water/Ground, Steel/Flying, Dragon/Ghost]
Slowbro [Water/Ghost, Water/Fighting, Ghost/Fighting, Water/Psychic]
Slowking-Galar [Water/Ghost, Water/Poison, Poison/Dark]
Toxapex [Poison/Dark, Poison/Water]
Victini [Fire/Electric]

B Rank
B+

Alakazam [Ghost/Fighting, Ghost/Fairy]
Dragapult [Dragon/Ghost, Water/Ghost, Water/Dragon, Water/Electric]
Excadrill [Normal/Ghost, Ground/Ghost, Ground/Steel]
Haxorus [Bug/Ground, Bug/Fighting, Fighting/Ground]
Hippowdon [Ground/Rock, Rock/Poison, Rock/Dark]
Kommo-o [Fire/Normal, Normal/Dragon, Ground/Steel, Ghost/Fighting]
Melmetal [Steel/Ground, Electric/Steel, Fighting/Poison]
Naganadel [Dragon/Poison, Fire/Poison, Dragon/Fire]
Scizor [Steel/Flying]
Slowking [Water/Ground, Fire/Ground]
Volcarona [Fire/Psychic, Fire/Grass]

B
Buzzwole [Steel/Flying, Fighting/Flying, Flying/Ground]
:celebi: Celebi [Fairy/Ghost, Ghost/Ground]
Cinderace [Poison/Fighting]
Coalossal [Ground/Steel, Fighting/Steel, Water/Fighting, Water/Ground]
Drednaw [Water/Ground]
:jirachi: Jirachi [Steel/Fairy]
Kingdra [Water/Flying]
Lucario [Normal/Fire, Normal/Ground, Normal/Dark, Normal/Ghost]
Necrozma [Dragon/Fairy, Fire/Ground, Psychic/Ground]
Pelipper [Water/Bug, Dark/Poison, Water/Flying, Water/Dark]
Porygon-Z [Electric/Ghost, Electric/Ice]
Regieleki [Electric/Normal]
Rhyperior [Water/Steel, Water/Ghost]
Tapu Lele [Psychic/Fighting, Psychic/Fairy]
Urshifu-Single-Strike [Poison/Dark, Steel/Dark, Fighting/Dark]
Volcanion [Fire/Ground, Poison/Ground, Steel/Flying]
Zarude [Grass/Steel, Dark/Steel]

B-
Araquanid [Water/Poison]
Barraskewda [Water/Fighting, Water/Psychic]
Blaziken [Dark/Fighting, Ground/Dark, Ground/Fire]
Conkeldurr [Normal/Fighting, Fighting/Dark]
Nidoking [Ground/Poison, Fire/Ground]
Noivern [Normal/Dark, Normal/Ghost, Normal/Fire]
Tangrowth [Poison/Grass, Dark/Poison]
Tapu Koko [Electric/Grass, Electric/Fairy, Steel/Flying]
Tyranitar [Rock/Dragon]
:zygarde-10: Zygarde-10% [Normal/Ground]

C Rank
C+

Avalugg [Steel/Fighting, Dark/Steel]
Azelf [Normal/Dark, Fire/Electric]
:chansey: Chansey [Normal, Grass/Poison]
Ferrothorn [Grass/Steel, Grass/Poison]
Glastrier [Ground/Steel, Dark/Fighting, Dragon/Steel, etc.]
Jellicent [Water/Fairy, Fire/Fairy]
Magnezone [Steel/Electric, Electric/Fighting]
Mandibuzz [Poison/Dark, Poison/Flying]
Moltres [Fire/Flying, Fire/Ground]
Toxtricity [Normal/Ghost, Normal/Electric]
Vaporeon [Water/Ghost]
Zapdos [Electric/Flying]

C
Blacephalon [Ghost/Dark]
Chandelure [Ghost/Grass]
Cloyster [Normal/Ice]
Corviknight [Steel/Flying]
Crawdaunt [Water/Fighting]
Diggersby [Ground/Bug, Ground/Dark, Poison/Dark]
Gengar [Fairy/Electric, Ghost/Fighting, Poison/Fairy, Electric/Poison]
Hatterene [Fairy/Grass, Grass/Fire]
Hawlucha [Fighting/Flying, Steel/Flying]
Keldeo [Water/Fighting, Flying/Fighting]
Stakataka [Steel/Ground, Steel/Fighting]
Torkoal [Fire/Fighting]
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike [Water/Electric, Water/Psychic]
Venusaur [Poison/Ground, Fire/Ground]
Zapdos-Galar [Dark/Fighting]

C-
Aegislash [Ghost/Fighting]
Aerodactyl [Normal/Dark]
Barbaracle [Ghost/Dragon, Ghost/Fighting]
Dhelmise [Steel/Ghost]
:ditto: Ditto [Normal]
Espeon [Water/Fairy]
Grimmsnarl [Fairy/Dark]
Sigilyph [Steel/Ghost]
Slurpuff [Bug/Fairy]
Terrakion [Bug/Fighting]
The new Camomons VR is out! Enjoy! A lot of changes due to WCoOM allowing for a more developed meta, so these changes should reflect that.
 

a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
I'd like to nominate Pikachu to join the VR. The depths of C- seems most fitting, but through multiple ladder runs this generation I believe Pika has a legitimate place in the metagame.


/

Pikachu (F) @ Light Ball
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Play Rough / Knock Off
- Extreme Speed
- Knock Off / Double Edge / Toxic

Pikachu sets itself apart from other Extreme Speed users with its access to Fake Out. This move is incredibly effective when matched up against offensive teams since most frail breakers can't stand up to FakeSpeed and are 2HKOed by the combo. This includes but isn't limited to: Lycanroc-D, Zeraora, Dragapult, Latios, Haxorus, and even Hydreigon after Stealth Rock. Pika's best secondary STAB (imo) is Fairy via Play Rough as it is decently strong and gives it some great immunities to Ghost, Dragon, and Electric via Lightning Rod. Each of these immunities comes in handy against foes like Dragon / Electric Latios and Dragapult in a pinch. Knock Off is another option that provides better coverage against Steel-types and nice initial Base Power along with an immunity to Psychic moves which could come in handy in late game situations. The fourth moveslot is used the least but can be tailored to whatever you see fit, with the above options being fine and other things like Nuzzle or Volt Switch having use too.

Pikachu's power is slightly greater than Life Orb Arcanine's but comes at the cost of tons of bulk and utility since basically any move deletes or heavily cripples Pikachu.

252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 165-196 (48.3 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Light Ball Pikachu Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO



/

Latios (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Surf
- Calm Mind
- Psyshock

While I'm here I'll shoutout an underrated rain abuser, Latios. This guy isn't as fast as Kingdra in rain but benefits from a much higher SpA and access to Calm Mind. Latios in rain tears through slower balance teams. Both its STAB moves benefit from rain and Psyshock is there for Blissey mainly but can come in handy in a Calm Mind war if necessary.
 

in the hills

spreading confusion
is a Top Artistis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Hello everyone! The Camomons council is putting out a public survey to gauge the opinions on the current metagame. Anyone with a Smogon account is welcome to respond and give input!

You can find our survey here. Let us know if you have any concerns! This survey is largely to see the community's opinion on the metagame as OMPL approaches and if any course of action needs to be taken in preparation for it, so we appreciate any feedback you have!
 
Umbreon @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Moonlight
- Iron Tail
- Heal Bell
- Wish

Nominating Umbreon to join the VR, it has a really convenient stats spread as well as a diverse movepool with key moves such as wish and heal bell. In a stalled battle, it can help teammates out-sustain the enemy team, while being very hard to chip down.
 

in the hills

spreading confusion
is a Top Artistis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Sorry for the wait, had a few things come up the past few weeks and I didn't have time to close out the survey. Here are the results:
1619193541666.png

Overall Response: Overall, the community seems to be enjoying the current metagame! With an average of 7.73, most people find the metagame enjoyable at the moment!
1619193638980.png

Prospects of a suspect: There was a pretty large split here on whether or not a suspect is needed at the present moment, though the results lean more towards the community wanting to see something suspected.
1619193781824.png

Healthiness of metagame threats:
Averages
Zeraora: 3
Spectrier: 3.2
Pheromosa: 2.93
Hydreigon: 2.4
Tornadus-Therian: 2.13

Again the results here show that there's not very concrete opinions from the community on what to suspect. There's a very notable split between people who think Zeraora is unhealthy and those that do not, likely because everyone is not yet aware of the Flying-type sets that have lead to most people wanting it to be suspected. Spectrier is the front runner in this survey (totally not an intentional horse racing pun) by a hair, with more consistent results than any of the others. Pheromosa was the only Pokemon to receive 2 votes for 5th tier unhealthiness, but otherwise the results for it were very low.

As for our optional written responses, there wasn't much of note outside of general descriptions of what these Pokemon do and more division on what is broken at the moment. As an aside, I do want to note that we did receive multiple responses regarding bulky setup (specifically Clefable and Latias), so I will be readdressing that at a later time as I think there's a lot of validity in that concern and a lot that can be discussed on that topic.

Following these results, we still didn't have a very clear course of action, so we decided to put Zeraora, Spectrier, and Pheromosa to a vote. The votes are as follows:
Pokemon​
a loser​
Chazm​
Euphonos​
in the hills​
The Number Man​
RESULT​
Zeraora
Do Not Suspect​
Abstain​
Suspect​
Suspect​
Do Not Suspect​
Do Not Suspect
Spectrier
Do Not Suspect​
Suspect​
Suspect​
Do Not Suspect​
Suspect​
Suspect
Pheromosa
Do Not Suspect​
Do Not Suspect​
Do Not Suspect​
Do Not Suspect​
Do Not Suspect​
Do Not Suspect
As a result, we will be suspecting Spectrier in the near future! Keep an eye out for the suspect thread within the coming days for more information! Thank you all for your responses on the survey.
 

a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
After playing a lot of Camomons recently, I've become increasingly aware of how strong Calm Mind users are. To be clear, I'm not necessarily saying Calm Mind users are unhealthy for the metagame but I am saying they are very good and a force to be reckoned with. However, it isn't very fun to watch or be a part of Calm Mind wars between the mons I'll discuss below. These Calm Mind wars are often decided in the teambuilder based on who you want to Speed creep or not and usually end up in some sort of hax like a critical hit, freeze, or paralysis. Haze deserves mention here as a nice "stop" to Calm Mind spam, but the best Haze user is Toxapex and it can easily be worked around with the right Calm Mind user and/or team support. Sadly, the other Haze users that also have reliable recovery include Articuno, Milotic, Croygonal, Quagsire, Mantine, Vaporeon, and Crobat, with each of these not being the best picks for the metagame.

These are the main offenders, in my opinion, as they have excellent movepools that let them choose great offensive and defensive typings along with reliable recovery options. Quite often I see these mons as late-game wincons that just clean up the opponent's team because they have nothing left to handle their boosted attacks or take them out before they can set up and recover.
:latios:Latios (M) @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt / Surf
- Ice Beam / Draco Meteor / Shadow Ball / Surf
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Potential Typings:
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/
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**
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**
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**
/

Latios is definitely the most offensive oriented Calm Mind user of the bunch thanks to its nice Speed and SpA. It has a ton of typings to choose from, shown above, and this doesn't include niche sets with Aura Sphere, Energy Ball, Mystical Fire, Tri Attack, Air Slash, or Psychic moves. It is very tough to wall this mon with one set because its STAB coverage is so variable and it can also give you a Choice item with Trick. Luckily, Latios is vulnerable to various types of priority to be revenge killed, but this varies depending on its typing.

:latias:Latias (F) @ Black Sludge / Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic / Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
- Surf / Thunderbolt / Mystical Fire
- Calm Mind
- Recover

Potential Typings:
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**
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Latias offers more defensive utility but its nice Speed sets it apart from other defensive Calm Mind users. Poison / Water is very difficult to bring down without physical Electric-types like Zeraora and Scarf Victini or revenge killers like Zygarde-10% and Scarf Earthquake Haxorus. Toxic annoys everything not immune to it and keeps Latias from being worn down itself by Toxic. Latias doesn't necessarily need full Speed investment, as it can use 192+ to Speed creep Garchomp (or a little less to just creep Hydreigon) and invest the rest elsewhere. Latias can also choose more offensive typings, which open it up to Toxic, but pulls from the same deep movepool as its twin brother.

:clefable:Clefable @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe or 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Bold / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Thunderbolt / Flamethrower / Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled

Potential Typings:
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**
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Clefable is a very effective late-game cleaner with very spammable STAB options that also translate into great defensive typings. Magic Guard lets it ignore most status side effects and Life Orb recoil and Soft-Boiled is icing on the cake. Moonblast aids Clefable in Calm Mind wars thanks to its high chance to drop the opponent's SpA and its secondary STAB options are pretty complementary to Fairy. Although much less explored, Clefable has move options like Focus Blast, Grass Knot, Blizzard, and even Water Pulse to take on other dual typings depending on its teammates and this makes Clefable fairly unpredictable. The EV spread is also pretty customizable, as you can make it physically bulky or more offensively oriented.

This group contains viable Calm Mind users that aren't quite as effective or splashable as the first group, but still solid options. The Slowkings and Reuniclus stand out here for having access to Regenerator and reliable recovery moves with 16 PP, not to mention pretty deep movepools for other coverage and utility. Cresselia is much more passive and has recovery options with only 8 PP, but is a solid Calm Mind user anyway thanks to its incredible defensive stats. Magearna also has an insane offensive movepool but can only gain recovery via a weak Draining Kiss.
:slowking:Slowing / Slowking-Galar @ Leftovers / Heavy-Duty Boots:slowking-galar:
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald / Flamethrower
- Shadow Ball / Hex / Sludge Bomb
- Calm Mind
- Slack Off / Substitute

Potential Typings:
/
**
/
**
/

The Slowkings don't offer quite as many viable STAB typings as some Calm Mind users but make up for it with an excellent ability in Regenerator and access to Slack Off if they want that too. The EV spread is fairly customizable too, as you can tweak it to tank certain hits or outspeed guys like Toxapex with Haze. Galarian Slowking is a bit more effective at this role with its higher SpA and ability to use Scald / Sludge Bomb, but both kings are solid options. Slowbro deserves an honorable mention here but is not on the same level as the Slowkings.

:reuniclus:Reuniclus @ Life Orb / Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard / Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon / Focus Blast
- Shadow Ball / Psyshock / Energy Ball
- Calm Mind
- Recover / Stored Power

Potential Typings:
/
**
/
**
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**
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**
/

Reuniclus is neat here because it can choose from two great ability, Magic Guard and Regenerator. Magic Guard pairs well with Life Orb to make it more threatening and avoid chip damage from status, but Regen is cool to shrug off damage and come back in to set up later. I'm not incredibly familiar with using this mon so I'm not sure what the ideal spread is for Calm Mind sets but physically bulky seems nice. Reuniclus has a lot of good defensive typings to choose from thanks to an interesting movepool. Thunder is another option if you don't mind missing every now and then that gives Reuniclus even more typing options.

:cresselia:Cresselia (F) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Toxic / Shadow Ball / Thunder Wave / Charge Beam
- Moonblast
- Moonlight
- Calm Mind

Potential Typings:
/
**
/
**
/

Cresselia isn't quite a top tier Calm Mind user only due to its limited healing PP in Moonlight, which can hamper its ability to win Calm Mind wars without landing a crit. In my experience, Cresselia has playing defense as its primary focus and Calm Mind is there just in case you have to use it. Most sets usually have Moonblast as the only attack, unless running Toxic prone Shadow Ball sets or a nice Charge Beam, and this also sets it back slightly as opposing Calm Mind users normally have two attacks to choose from. That being said, Moonblast is a great option to have.

:magearna:Magearna @ Lum Berry / Leftovers / Sitrus Berry / Grassy Seed
Ability: Soul-Heart
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball / Flash Cannon / Thunderbolt / Shift Gear
- Draining Kiss / Fleur Cannon / Flash Cannon / Focus Blast / Energy Ball
- Calm Mind
- Shift Gear / Stored Power

Potential Typings:
/
**
/
**
/
**
/
**
/
**
/

Magearna's offensive movepool is insane. Its coverage options are almost endless and this isn't even considering Ice Beam, which isn't used as STAB often because of its poor defensive qualities. The only thing really holding Magearna back is access to reliable recovery, as its only option is Draining Kiss (and Pain Split, I guess). While Magearna can struggle with Unaware Clefable at times, it can also tailor its set to beat it Steel / Fairy sets that can spam Fleur Cannon.

This last group has niche options for Calm Mind users that won't be seen often but can still wreck unprepared teams. (Almost) Each of these have fairly colorful movepools for coverage, recovery in one way or another, and interesting abilities.
:necrozma:Necrozma @ Leftovers / Weakness Policy
Ability: Prism Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power / Flash Cannon
- Psyshock / Heat Wave / Earth Power / Stored Power / Dragon Pulse
- Calm Mind
- Moonlight / Rock Polish

Potential Typings:
/
**
/
**
/
**
/
**
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**
/

Although Hydreigon's presence makes Necrozma less useful, it has an interesting movepool, solid bulk, and a recovery option. But its access to Earth Power is really what makes it stand out from other Calm Mind users. Necrozma has some neat typings to choose from that function both offensively and defensively. Earth Power is great as it hits Unaware Clefable and you even get Photon Geyser as an option to deal with in the hill's Fairy / Poison Clefable set (although Photon is generally not useful outside of this). Necromza can go full bulky setup or invest in some Speed and SpA paired with Rock Polish to play as a sweeper with Weakness Policy.

:spectrier:Spectrier @ Leftovers
Ability: Grim Neigh
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex / Shadow Ball
- Dark Pulse / Taunt / Substitute
- Calm Mind
- Will-O-Wisp / Hyper Beam

Potential Typings:
/
**
/

Spectrier is much more well known as a Nasty Plot user, but can also be effective with Calm Mind. Its shallow movepool doesn't allow for much variation in typing, but support moves like Taunt, Substitute, and Will-O-Wisp can make it very difficult to break past especially once Grim Neigh begins to snowball. The EV spread can be tweaked a bunch to Speed creep certain foes or to tank hits from guys like Rillaboom.

:sigilyph:Sigilyph @ Life Orb / Metronome / Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard / Tinted Lens
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball / Energy Ball / Dark Pulse / Heat Wave
- Flash Cannon / Dark Pulse / Dazzling Gleam
- Calm Mind
- Roost

Potential Typings:
/
**
/
**
/
**
/
**
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**
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**
/

Sigilyph is the frailest Calm Mind user discussed so far, but its solid movepool, two interesting abilities, and access to recovery give it a solid niche. There are a ton of useful typings to choose from and Magic Guard + Life Orb is always fun to use. Although another neat option is available with Tinted Lens + Metronome, but this is a little hard to pull off considering Knock Off is everywhere coming from fast guys like Tornadus-T.

:hatterene:Hatterene (F) @ Leftovers / Heavy Duty Boots
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Giga Drain / Draining Kiss
- Shadow Ball / Dark Pulse / Mystical Fire
- Calm Mind
- Substitute / Trick Room / Psyshock / Nuzzle / Aromatherapy / Healing Wish

Potential Typings:
/
**
/
**
/
**
/
**
/

Hatterene has plenty of things holding it back, but makes a name for itself as the slowest Calm Mind user that also has a neat ability in Magic Bounce. Lacking recovery outside of Giga Drain and Draining Kiss is a bummer, but Hatterene can still do some damage if it is able to set up. Hatterene has some interesting typings to choose from and its fourth moveslot is somewhat free, with options like Substitute, Trick Room, coverage, or team support all being useful.

:blissey:Blissey (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball / Flamethrower / Thunderbolt
- Dazzling Gleam / Hyper Voice
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled

Potential Typings:
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**
/
**
/
**
/

Blissey's role as a pivot, cleric, and rocker is much more established but it has a niche as a Calm Mind user too. I haven't seen too much of it yet, but it has some neat typing options and excellent special bulk that could catch opponents by surprise.

:mew:Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Timid / Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Pick anything
- Just pick literally any move
- Calm Mind
- Soft-Boiled

Can't talk about Camomons without mentioning Mew. With so, so many moves to choose from Mew is a very customizable Calm Mind user with well rounded stats. It can choose any of the above mentioned typings and perform on a similar if not slightly less effective level. Calm Mind Mew isn't very common, but Mew can do whatever it wants so you have to be prepared for it regardless.
 
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in the hills

spreading confusion
is a Top Artistis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Spectrier remains unbanned in Camomons! Thank you to all of those who participated in the suspect.

So what's next?

Following the low turnout of the Spectrier suspect, it is unlikely that we will be running another suspect any time soon unless something changes with our ladder activity. However, there are quite a few issues people have expressed with the metagame during the past few weeks that we have already begun to discuss and lay out plans for.

:ss/Zeraora:
Zeraora has become an absolute menace in the metagame with Acrobatics sets resurfacing in the metagame.
To quote Chazm,
"Zeraora is a highly frustrating mon. It practically forces certain Electric-types onto teams just to check it - not all of which will work - and most typings of Zeraora are practically incapable of being revenge killed, making it extremely tough, if not impossible to deal with reliably. Even if you manage to deal with the Flying sets, there's always something like Electric/Fairy or Fairy/Fighting there to screw all of that over without significant edits to a team. This thing needs to go, and is the easiest mon to get out of the metagame."
The council is definitely in agreement that Zeraora is the most oppressive Pokemon currently in the metagame, and we plan on dealing with it ASAP.

:ss/hydreigon::ss/latios::ss/latias:
Bulky setup sweepers were the other thing consistently brought up throughout the suspect was an increasing displeasure for bulky setup in general in the metagame. After our discussion, we pointed towards 3 main abusers in the metagame; Hydreigon, Latios, and Latias.

Hydreigon is fairly restrictive due to its wide movepool that have massively different defensive counterplay. Dragon and Steel type sets are very difficult to switch into after a Nasty Plot, and Steel-type Hydreigon's immunity to Toxic makes it potent against some opposing bulky Pokemon. Hydreigon is held back by its Speed tier, notably losing out to both Latis and Garchomp, while also struggling in some bulky setup wars if it doesnt get off Nasty Plot first. Despite this, Hydreigon has found itself at the forefront of the bulky setup issue in a lot of people's eyes. Similar to Hydreigon in that it is a strong speedy breaker, Latios isn't held back by its speed tier nearly as much and Calm Mind gives it a better matchup against bulky teams. Latias on the other hand is a bulkier alternative to the two, using its bulk to more consistently setup and threaten teams in the long run. Latias' bulk also allows it to run Toxic CM sets effectively, restricting its counterplay in the teambuilder even more. What it lacks in immediate power it makes up for in consistency and variability. These three Pokemon are the main things the council is looking at in the present moment regarding bulky setup, and we'd love the community's feedback on these three and bulky setup in general in the current metagame.

:ss/pheromosa:
Pheromosa still has shown to be a nuisance to deal with, though it still has the same issues that has held it back. Bulky Water types and Rocky Helmet Pokemon in particular shut down Choice Band sets, while Protective Pads sets lack immediate power. To be honest, I think Pheromosa is bad personally, but I do question whether its a healthy presence. As it stands, the general consensus is that it's fine, but we may look into it down the line.

We decided after our conversation to hold a vote on Zeraora and Hydreigon, here are the results:
Pokemona loserChazmEuphonosin the hillsThe Number ManRESULT
Zeraora
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN​
BAN (5-0)
Hydreigon
DNB​
ABS​
DNB​
BAN​
ABS​
DO NOT BAN (1-2-2)
With that, Zeraora has been banned from Camomons! We'll continue to discuss bulky setup as a whole for a bit and get back to you all. We'd love to hear your thoughts on this issue as we didn't really cover it in our previous survey. Thanks!

Tagging Kris to implement the Zeraora ban.
 
Honestly thought that Abomasnow would be better, with pretty good stats, defensive and offensive. It just had a terrible defensive typing, prob. the worst in the game. Now that can be fixed, and he has Hail. Why its not really a part of the metagame?
 
Honestly thought that Abomasnow would be better, with pretty good stats, defensive and offensive. It just had a terrible defensive typing, prob. the worst in the game. Now that can be fixed, and he has Hail. Why its not really a part of the metagame?
Abomasnow might have a decent offensive movepool and ability but it's stats are terrible, with abysmal speed for an offensive pokemon, bad defenses, and below average offenses. There are multiple pokemon that outclass is completely.
 
Camomons has received a viability ranking update! Details are below:

Rises

:latias: Latias: A+ -> S

Latias is infamous in the current metagame. Various viable typings combined with high levels of bulk and a lack of general passivity creates a monstrously potent wincon that is capable of clearing through most builds. Water/Poison variants are infamously difficult to KO, and other variants such as Fire/Poison, Electric/Poison and Dragon/Electric provide significant defensive utility whilst being fairly difficult to approach.

:latios: Latios: A -> A+

Similarly to Latias, Latios also rose, but not for the power of its bulky CM sets - rather, the extreme potency of its offensive CM sets utilizing Dragon/Water and Dragon/Electric. Both of these variants are not only difficult to deal significant damage to but also pump out significant damage themselves, making it a much more explosive wincon than Latias. The lack of immediate answers to these sets warranted a raise in ranking.

:slowking-galar: Slowking-Galar: A- -> A+

Slowking-Galar has seen a meteoric rise in the bulky setup metagame, with Water/Poison sets rising to the forefront of viability. Water/Poison Slowking-Galar's ability to spread status and check various types in the metagame as well as be a tough Pokemon to force out in combination with Cm are undeniably powerful traits that were considerably underrated when this VR was first released. This warranted a two rank rise.

:naganadel: Naganadel: B+ -> A-

Naganadel sees a small rise in viability as its Nasty Plot sets are incredibly difficult to wall and punish fat builds exceedingly well, with few Pokemon being able to blanket resist Naganadel's Dragon/Poison/Fire combination. Whilst Naganadel is pretty hard to get on the field safely, when given proper support, either through pivoting or Screens, its traits tend to shine brightly.

Tyranitar: B- -> B

Tyranitar received a small rise in viability due to the role compression of its Rock/Dragon set, which is capable of forcing out multiple bulky setup users within a game through Dragon Tail.

Cloyster: C -> B-
Hawlucha: C -> C+
Dhelmise: C- -> C
Metagross: UR -> C+
Pikachu: UR -> C-

These 5 mostly received a rise either due to competitors like Zeraora leaving the metagame or a newly unique niche was discovered for them. For Cloyster and Metagross, they received increased rankings due to their capability to act as an Explosion lead on Hyper Offense and often trade better than 1 to 1. Pikachu was ranked due to its ability to revenge kill a large portion of the metagame and act as a potentially frustrating wallbreaker if given the right support.

The majority of these drops were due to overranking in the VR and the need to cut back on niches not really used in Camomons, but the major ones shall be described below:

Drops

:landorus-therian: Landorus-Therian: A+ -> A-

Landorus-Therian suffers heavily in the metagame due to its typings generally being antagonized defensively and a lack of niche over most defensive Tornadus-Therian sets. Its lack of reliable forms of recovery also dig into it heavily as in a bulky setup metagame, Landorus-Therian often finds itself incapable of checking threats throughout the game.

Heracross: A -> A-
Cresselia: A- -> B+
Entei: A- -> B+
Magearna: A- -> B+
Salamence: A- -> B+
Slowbro: A- -> B+

:excadrill: Excadrill: B+ -> B-
:haxorus: Haxorus: B+ -> B-

Excadrill and Haxorus were dropped due to a lack of usage and power to back up their previous ranking. Their lacking bulk and generally low speed make them rather ineffective wallbreakers in the current metagame.

Hippowdon: B+ -> B
Kommo-o: B+ -> B
Kingdra: B -> B-
Araquanid: B- -> C+

:nidoking: Nidoking: B- -> UR

In a Lati dominated metagame, Nidoking simply cannot carve a niche for itself. Its range of typings are simply outdone by other Pokemon, like Clefable and Mew.

Avalugg: C+ -> C
Azelf: C+ -> C
Jellicent: C+ -> C

:mandibuzz: Mandibuzz: C+ -> UR

Mandibuzz was unranked as the council did not see what significant niche this had over other Dark/Poisons like Tornadus-Therian, Toxapex and Unaware Clefable.

Moltres: C+ -> C-
Toxtricity: C+ -> C
Zapdos: C+ -> C-
Blacephalon: C -> UR
Corviknight: C -> UR
Stakataka: C -> UR
Zapdos-Galar: C -> UR
Barbaracle: C- -> UR
Sigilyph: C- -> UR
Slurpuff: C- -> UR
Terrakion: C- -> UR
 
Hello friends, I'm back here for the time of OMPL :blobnom: The Camomons council already know my opinion on the different Pokémon mentionned in the survey (TL;DR: Fuck Hydrei, suspect Phero, Zera and Spectrier and TornaT is fine) so I won't go back over it. Here, I want to discuss an absolute central point in Camomons. People might take exception to what I'm about to propose but I would like you to take the time to read and seriously think about it. So here we go...

cm_camo.png

(high quality picture made by myself!)

As you can see from this beautiful picture, we're going to talk about Calm Mind in Camomons. My goal with this post is to show to the council and the community how broken CM is in Camo and why, in my opinion, we need to ban it.

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Calm Mind in brief

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Yeah I know all of you probably know the effect of CM but you never know...

A more interesting thing about CM is, who learn it and are viable in Camomons ?

:latias: :latios: :clefable: :magearna: :reuniclus::spectrier: :cresselia: :slowking-galar: :slowbro: :jirachi: :celebi: :hatterene: :necrozma: :keldeo: :raikou: :sigilyph: :chandelure:

In OU (used as reference meta):

:clefable: :slowking-galar: :tapu-lele: :tapu-fini::reuniclus: :suicune: :primarina:

There's plenty of CM users in Camomons and more than half of them are A- or higher (20/05). Moreover, 10 of them have access to a reliable recovery.

For the comparison, here the users of Bulk Up, the physical version of CM:

:urshifu::buzzwole: :zarude:

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Calm Mind and Camomons mecanic interaction

Again, I'm not teaching you anything but Camomons mecanic is based on the typing change according to the movepools. This mecanic allows to some Pokémon to get a better typing with more resistances and less weaknesses which particularly benefits from bulky mon.

In particular, bulky setup sweepers are among the biggest winners. Indeed with the Camomons mecanic, you can eventually get the Poison or Steel typing to gain an immunity to Toxic ; a classical answer against setup sweeper. You can also perfectly abuse from your talent immunity (like Levitate). Finally, it's possible to get a STAB on a "not walled by an immunity move" (Water, Dark, Steel, etc) which help a lot mono attackers to break despite resistances or huge bulk (+6 0 SpA Latias Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 322-381 (45 - 53.3%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO).

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Calm Mind in practise, how much is it centralising and harmful for the metagame?


Firstly I want to redirect lectors to a loser's post which explain very well the importance of Calm Mind in the metagame and present its main users.

Before we begin in more detail, I want to show you a comparison to highlight how much Calm Mind is strong on Camomons.

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For non-initiated, I present to you the pink demon of ORAS OU, :clefable: ! Clefable is the only S tier mon in ORAS OU and it's easy to understand why. Clefable indeed has a unique but not less excellent Fairy typing usefull against Dragon and good in general coupled to a really decent bulk which allow it to handle mon like Alakazam-Mega, Thundurus, TornadusT, Rotom-W, Lati@s, Scarf Lando and Ttar, etc with Soft Boiled as recovery move.
Magic Guard immune it against all the non-direct dammages (immu to Poisonned and Burned status, hazards, sand/hail, RH, etc) which constitute an excellent ability.
Finally, Clefable has a really good movepools with Moonblast as an excellent STAB, Knock Off to punish usual SI like Excadrill, TornaT or Heatran, Thunder Wave which is an incredible move in ORAS, Stealth Rock, Flamethrower to punish all the Steel which may attempt to come on it, Bolt-beam combo with Tbolt and Ice Beam and last but not least, Calm Mind to break. There's also some niche move like Encore used in particular cases to win CM war. Even mon like Tran can lose against CM Clef with a para.
With all this quality, isn't a suprise that Clef is one of the biggest threat of the ORAS OU metagame.

Now, let's go back to Camomons.

We also have Clefable! But now Clefable isn't only Fairy but can be Fairy/Elec, Fairy/Fire, Fairy/Ghost and other. For example, you can wall Fairy/Elec Clefable with mon like Grass/Steel Zarude or Poison/Grass mon but in that case, you completely lose against Fairy/Fire one. Ground/Fire AV Slowking win against both but lose against Fairy/Ghost. What I wanted to show here is how hard is it to get an overall answer against the different version of CM Clef.

But now, imagine there's no one Clefable with several version but many Clefable which each have several versions. Welcome in Camomons guys!
wigauboutderouleau.png


The "other Clef" are all the mon listed above. Indeed, without Magic Guard, you have the possibility to get the Poison or Steel typing to become immune to Toxic. Each mon have a particular coverage with move like Surf for Lati@s, Flash Cannon and Energy Ball for Reuniclus, Scald for Slowking-g, etc. Many of them have access to a reliable recovery move (Soft Boiled, Roost, Recover, Slack Off, etc). Finally all the CM users have enough physical bulk to limite prospects of rk (without taking account their generally have a physical defensive oriented typing).

So, what can we do against CM and its users?

:blissey: ?

Blissey is a good SpD sponge but absolutely not works against usual CM users. Clefable is immunise to Toxic (and TW sometimes) and can easily win. Generally all the Poison/ CM users win against Blissey despite it may seriously annoy them with TW.

Blissey also generally run Shadow Ball or Dazzling Gleam to get the Normal/Ghost or Normal/Fairy typing usefull against many threats. But in that case you have to choose between SR, Teleport, Toxic, TW or Seismic Toss as your two last slot. Blisseys which can't run Seismic Toss just lose to all the CM + Sub mon.

So no, Blissey isn't working against CM users in general (despite it can win against specific users).

Others passive SpD wall like :slowking:,:slowking-galar:, :tornadus-therian: ?

It really depends on the CM user. Yeah, Slowking Ground/Fire or Ground/Water can deal with Clefable Fairy/Elec or Fairy/Fire with EQ. Nevertheless, you need to keep your pp to hit Clef otherwise you'll end up losing. Theses two obviously lost against all the Lati@s in general (Choice Specs with the Psychic typing and Psyshock usually win but in that case, it's not a "passive SpD wall"). Tornadus-T AV absolutely can't do anything against the CM users in general. More generally, AV users lost against almost CM users because of their passivity and the possibility for the CM users to heal themselves.

Ttar and Hippo can respectively run Roar or Whirlwind to save yourself for a while but that's not a guarantee to win on the long run.

Mew provides an excellent utility but is unarmed against CM users.


What I wanted to show here is, you can't use usual answer to Special Attacker/Breaker to beat CM users. So you need (in BO/balanced/fat style) one mon to manage Special threats (Hydreigon lol, Dragapult, Specs Lati@s, Naganadel, TornaT, etc) and one mon to manage CM users. One mon to manage CM users? hahaha you're funny!


Here are the usual CM answer used actually and why their are not absolute against CM users.

:clefable:
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With Unaware, Dark/Poison Clef is one of the best answer to CM users. It's immune to Toxic and Knock Off has a good utility and a lot of pp in the optic of pp stalling. The large majority of the CM users haven't Ground moves so they can't break this Clef. Ngl this is probably the best answer we have against CM users without being absolutely shit.
But, be careful, if CM users don't win the 1v1 in general, that doesn't mean they won't get you in the end! This Clef is a good Knock Off + Toxic absorber but, without Boots or Black Sludge, it's easier to pressure it in the long run.​
Which win, a Fairy/Elec CM Magic Guard Clef or Dark/Poison Unaware Clef ?​
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Clefable: 76-91 (19.3 - 23.1%)​
0 SpA Clefable Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Clefable: 73-87 (18.5 - 22.1%)​
21,2% mean roll for Moonblast and 20,3% mean roll for Thunderbolt.​
21,2 * 24 + 20,3 * 24 = 996%​
Max recovery with 16 Soft Boiled: 50 * 16 = 800%​
Max health: 900%​
Fairy/Elec CM Magic Guard Clef can win against Dark/Poison Unaware Clefable. "can" because here, I considered an itemless Unaware Clefable. Fairy/Fire Clef can also win like Fairy/Elec.​
But hey guys, if one CM user isn't enough to pass Unaware Clef, what's about two ???? Unaware Clef can't deal with 2 CM user. It hasn't enough recovery or pp to win in general.​
:slowking-galar:
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0 Atk burned Clefable Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Slowking-Galar: 82-97 (20.8 - 24.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO (on Ghost Slowking-g)​
With a good invest, SubCM Slowking-g also can win against Unaware Clef (even if it's weak to Knock Off) with a Scald burn.​
:suicune: :raikou: :entei:
With Pressure, Sub and Scald/Lave Plume, these three can easily break Unaware Clef.​
:celebi:
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Unaware Clef is weak to Earth Power so it can't win (Toxic and run is useless on the long run because Celebi has Natural Cure to come back).​
Taunt
There's not so much relevant CM users with Taunt but it's obviously an easy way to setup on Unaware Clef. Futhermore, Taunt helps a lot against slow pivot like Blissey or Slowking preventing them to Teleport on a strong breaker.​
Substitute in general
Like Slowking-galar, it's possible to prevent Clef from using Toxic and break it. Mon like SubCM Fight/Elec, Dragon/Fight, Fight/Flying Latios are effective against Poison/Dark Unaware Clef thanks to their resistance to Knock Off. Otherwise, you can develop a strategy which consist to burn Clef to sufficiently weaken Knock Off to enable the Sub to hold. With many pp Clef will not be able to block you.​
Nevertheless note that Unaware Clef can run Seismic Toss which help a lot against Taunt and Substitute users.​

Normal/Fairy Clef with Encore win against Unaware Clef lol.​

Poison/Fairy Unaware CM Clef is a CM user which win against the others CM users LOL.

:toxapex:
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The best Hazer of the tier. It has exaclty the same problem as Unaware Clefable but, with another Regenerator, it's easier to pp stall.

Play HO (ORAS's moment lol). HO generally don't let the time of CM users to place themselves and focus on Physical Breaker which can't be walled by all the SpD tank like Bliss and AV mon. CM users aren't so good in this MU.

Play Stall with Unaware + Haze Pex and eventually Confide Blissey lol.

Choice Trick. You have one chance but that can save you (if there's just one CM lol).

Zeraora Elec/Fairy was a good answer with slow pivot against Lati@s Dragon/Elec, Water/Poison, Dragon/Water, etc but it's banned now so this is one less answer.

Be lucky and win your CM war with Freeze, Para, Burn or Crit!

There's other solution but, like I said before, they really depend on the MU. In OU, you have just ~4 mon (with high viability) and most of them have just one set so this isn't so hard to prep against but in Camo your head gonna explode if you try to check all the possibility.

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Conclusion

Considering what I said before, it's easy to understand why it's really hard to counter CM users with just classical answer (physical breaker, super-effective physical moves, etc). Let's be clear, it's impossible to be prepared against all CM users. You have to make choices and accept the idea that the MU could completely decide the game. MU is already very important in Camomons and CM accentuates again the part of MU on the outcome of the game.

CM isn't broken in itself but its interaction with the Camomons original mecanic make it absolutely out of control since you can minimize your weaknesses on your bulky setup sweeper and drastically change your check with just a typing change.

The state of the metagame is also inclined to maximize the efficiency of CM users. Indeed, there's more Special Attacker in Camomons which are unarmed against CM users.

Ban Lati@s isn't a real solution for me because the problem is deeper. Without L@tias we probably need to ban Pheromosa which can be out of control (and ban Hydreigon too but it's already out of control!). There's many other CM users which can shine despite being less efficient while taking advantage of the Lati@s ban.


For all of these reasons, I would like council actions against CM. Rather QB because suspect test in Camomons is a really bad idea considering the state (completely dead...) of the Camomons's ladder. Also reqs are too low so anyone which take time can vote without knowing the issues of the suspect and this isn't good for the metagame (not particularly a problem of Camomons but OMs in general in fact).

Obviously I don't say "BAN IT NOW ITH OR THE FRENCH ARMY WILL SHOW UP AT YOUR DOOR TO TAKE YOUR HEAD, LONG LIVE THE REVOLUTION!!" or "I DON'T WANT TO BUILD IN CAMO FOR OMPL WITH CM IN SO BAN IT!!". No, I really want to hear your thought about CM in Camomons and I want this post to be the beggining of a discussion on Calm Mind where all have his word to say!

Thanks for your lecture and your consideration!

TL;DR: CM users are numerous and completely centralize the metagame. All turn arround on "How can I win with my CM and win against the other?". But isn't possible to answer all the possibility allow by the Camomons mecanic (immunity to Toxic, better defensive typing to prevent rk and better STAB). Ban Lati@s isn't a solution considering the fact there's just a part of the problem. For the sake of the Camomons metagame, ban or suspect Calm Mind.
 
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Haha you thought I would give up for so little? You don't know me very well! So here we go again but with a more metagame-oriented approach and counter argument.

Introduction

From recent discussions I've had with Camomons players, everyone agrees on one thing globally: the Camomons has internal problems that make the tier unplayable and too dependent on the MU to make it a balanced tier where talent comes first.

I am one of the people who agree with this opinion, but I don't think that it's inevitable and that nothing can be done about it. That's what struck me the most when I heard from other players. The players agree that the tier has problems as it is, but no one is trying to get things done and find solutions. There is a kind of fatalism mixed with disinterest in the situation.

However, I'm convinced that if the invested players like me and the council decided together to think about how to improve the situation, we would find solutions. By solution, I don't mean "a miracle cure that will solve all the problems", everyone knows that it's impossible. Nevertheless, even if there is no perfect solution, any step taken to improve the state of the metagame is good and should be taken.

Please read this post if you're concerned about the future of the Camomons metagame and, even if you're not agree with me, tell it me, tell us! We are in a forum to discuss and debate no?

"Calm Mind is just a part of the problem, the real one is bulky setup and we can't do anything against that"

This affirmation is interesting although partly incorrect. I find that it correctly summarizes an opinion shared by many players and I will try to convince you that this statement is incorrect.


Like I said in my previous post, there's a great interaction between Camomons's mecanic and setup. Camomons allows mon to get better typing offensively and defensively which help a lot bulky setup. Indeed, you can maximize your resists and/or minimize your weaknesses which really help to stay in, a essential criterion for a setup mon.
In particular, we can minimize the perspective of rk (good defensive typing with few weaknesses), avoid to be Toxic'ed, a really classical solution against setup, abuse from an imunnity talent (Levitate, Flash Fire, etc) and obtain a STAB on a move with a really good coverage (Surf, Moonblast, Dark Pulse, etc).

So yeah, buky setup mon has all the reasons to be more annoying in Camo. Let's take a look at the bulky setup mon (appart from Calm Minder).

Hydreigon

:hydreigon:
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Hydreigon is, without a doubt, the perfect example of bulky setup sweeper with NP which abuses from its talent and the Camomons's mecanic (from its incredible movepools).

Hydreigon has a really good bulk for a setup sweeper 92/90/90 which prevents to rk it easily. Levitate is amazing on it because it paired very well with
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or
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which can obtain. Finally it can perfectly abuse from its bulk, resists and talent to stay thanks to Roost.

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is for me the most annoying one. 1 weakness for 9 resists and 2 immunity. Offensively
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paired very well to
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to break
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mons. Yeah, technically you don't really touch
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but, what's
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can do against you? Generally, nothing. You can just setup on
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mons and break it.

Note that Hydreigon can be a better Dragon Dancer than Mew thanks to Levitate more usefull for a setup sweeper. DD Hydreigon can easily suprise "check" like Blissey or Slowking which wanted to pivot to a rk.

What can we do against Hydreigon?

Nothing? Yeah I'm exaggerating but let's look at it in detail.

:tornadus-therian:
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Tornadus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 36 Atk / 152 SpD / 72 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Knock Off
- Superpower
- U-turn

The "classical" AV TornaT. You need 36 EVs in Atk to 2HKO Steel variants of Hydreigon and 72 in Spe to outspeed it. But:

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+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 333-394 (91.9 - 108.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
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+2 252 SpA Hydreigon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-Therian: 356-420 (98.3 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

And, without taking account those calc that shows you that at best, it's a 50/50, Hydreigon can just Roost on the Superpower if it suspects it and easily win the duel. If you just want to slowpivot on it, use max SpD spread instead.

TornaT obviously loses again the other variants like
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or
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because it cannot do enough damage.

You can try other versions of AV TornaT like
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with 148 EVs in Atk to OHKO
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variants of Hydreigon.
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and
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with no invest in Spe can work as slow pivot (loses against
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variants).

:slowking:
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Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Spa / 152 SpD (incomplete)
Sassy Nature
- Earthquake
- Scald / Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Dragon Tail / Focus Blast

An amazing SpD sponge. 152 EVs on SpD avoid 3HKO from Specs Spectrier and 2HKO from +2 Hurricane TornaT. 52 Spa to 2HKO Offensive
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TornaT with Ice beam and 2HKO
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Hydreigon with Focus Blast. Nevertheless, despite it's a really good mon against many Special thread, Slowking generally loses against Hydreigon. It can't do enough damage to 2HKO
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variant without Focus miss and just loses against
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,
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, etc. It's a decent check at best.

Without AV to pivot on a rk with Teleport, you need to be full SpD but take a look:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 363-426 (92.1 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Enjoy your 50/50!

Slowking-galar is exactly in the same position. Unless you highly invested in Spa, which mean less bulk, you can't 2HKO it so it can just Roost and continue its setup.

:blissey:
1622382189869.png
1622382432304.png
/
1622382432304.png
1622382167075.png

Blissey (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave / Toxic / Seismic Toss
- Teleport / Move listed above

At best, Blissey can pivot on a rk. You can use Toxic against others yeah... after all Toxic is a good move against setup sweepers in Camo...
1622382189869.png
1622382432304.png
loses against Spectrier and
1622382432304.png
1622382167075.png
take (71 - 84.1%) on Flash Cannon at +2 (with LO) and will probably be useless for the rest of the game. You know what to do now... Note that
1622382189869.png
1622382432304.png
take +2 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 413-487 (57.8 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO before pivoting. A decent check yeah but you know what? Hydreigon can run Taunt instead of NP (in particular in non-Steel variants) to prevent Blissey from pivoting (and Toxic/TW). Subsitute also works to prevent rk and Toxic/TW.

:reuniclus:
1622382167075.png
1622382286605.png
/
1622382286605.png
1622382416095.png

Reuniclus @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Charm / Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off

Not particularly good atm. Win against Steel variants if Focus miss hits and loses against others. Nothing more to say.

:latias:
1622382279573.png
1622382416095.png
/
1622382416095.png
1622382131656.png
/
1622382201466.png
1622382131656.png
/
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1622382416095.png
/
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1622382131656.png
/
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1622382131656.png
/
1622382416095.png
/
1622382201466.png
1622382189869.png
/ …

Can't touch
1622382295498.png
1622382286605.png
Hydreigon so it can just setup in front of you. At best, if you're faster, you can try to CM but Hydreigon normally win if it has 1 turn ahead:

+6 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. +3 252 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 341-403 (93.6 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+4 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. +3 252 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 257-304 (70.6 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nevertheless, you win against the others in general (Steel, Fire, Water resists + immu Ground).

:mew:
The Camomons's theorem says: "∃ a Mew which is a solution to your problem" Nevertheless, I don't find one here... If a mon break the Camomons's theorem we obviously need to ban it!

:clefable:
1622382114832.png
1622382131656.png


Unaware against NP!!! Hmm? It loses against Hydreigon because it's weak Ground and, otherwise, there's a good chance to 2HKO it with Flash Cannon + Draco Meteor (need LO). Also don't forget Hydreigon can run Taunt UwU

The other usual SpD wall lose against Hydreigon in general (Cress against Steel, Tran against Ground, etc).

Conclusion about Hydreigon

BAN IT!! Hmm hmm excuse me, I got carried away. No seriously, Hydreigon was in tier 1 in the initial watchlist and, despite the metagame is faster now, there's no more SI to Hydreigon and it's also hard to rk it. You basically need an answer against
1622382295498.png
1622382286605.png
and against others but is it really possible to handle Hydreigon?
People say "Hydreigon suffers from the competition from Lati@s and other faster NP like Naganadel or TornadusT" but is it right? Latias has a different role generally so no. Latios yeah, it also has an amazing movepools, a good bulk, Levitate, Roost and CM. The main difference is, we can wall all the classical Latios with mon like Fairy/Poison Cresselia, Dragon/Fairy Mew/Necrozma, Fairy/Elec Clef (no Specs Surf). We also have more time to pivot in front of Latios because Calm Mind is slower than NP to boost yourself. Generally, Latios isn't Poison (preferred on Latias for its bulk) so Toxic can work against it. Naganadel is just wall by mon like Ground/Steel or Ground/Fight Heatran/Coalossal, it's generally weak to Ground (Dragon/Fire, Dragon/Elec, Dragon/Poison, Elec/Fire, Fire/Poison, etc) so AV Ground/Water or Ground/Fire Slowking works very well against it. Moreover, Naganadel is a setup sweeper not a bulky setup sweeper so, despite its high speed, it's easier to rk it with faster mon, choice scarfer or priority. Finally TornaT is a serious competition yeah but generally we prefer play it for its Defensive Utility set or AV one. Also, as i mentionned before, it's possible to handle TornaT with mon like AV Slowking and Rock/Poison Hippo, Elec/Poison Tias, etc.

The main difference between Hydreigon and the other mentionned above is Hydreigon has access to a Ground STAB and a good Steel move. Steel provides an immunity to Toxic and many resists and Ground breaks usual response to Special mon like Dark/Poison TornaT, Dark/Poison Clef, etc. Virtually, there's no check to usual Hydreigon while there is for the other. This mon destroys Balanced and can be effective in others MU. Hydreigon is broken, we need to ban it.

Tornadus-Therian (offensive)

:tornadus-therian:
1622382336413.png
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/
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/
1622382398639.png
1622382114832.png
/
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/
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and
1622382336413.png
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/
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/
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1622382131656.png
/
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/
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1622382131656.png


Another really strong bulky setup sweeper, TornaT has an incredible movepools with strong one like Hurricane or Focus Blast and a good coverage with Sludge Bomb, Dark Pulse, Heat Wave, etc. With NP it can be an amazing breaker with the advantage to take a chance several times thanks to Regenerator. NP TornaT is definitely a great threat we need to think about in the builder but, it has weaknesses.

Firstly, its powerfull STAB, Focus Blast and Hurricane are obviously problematic for a setup sweeper. Compared to the defensive or support variants, you must hit at +2 otherwise you lose an incredible amount of damage and open the door to your oppo to kill TornaT. That's why
1622382336413.png
1622382398639.png
offensive NP TornaT isn't really played (in addition to being walled by
1622382336413.png
1622382416095.png
/
1622382416095.png
1622382131656.png
which are common defensive typing).
1622382114832.png
1622382131656.png
is really interesting on the paper but just hard walled by
1622382114832.png
1622382131656.png
like Clef, TornaT AV or Pex.
1622382398639.png
1622382114832.png
with Sludge Bomb to hit Fairies isn't bad tbh but this is the only version which can be rk it by Rilla.
1622382398639.png
1622382131656.png
is just walled by all the
1622382131656.png
mons so isn't so good despite a good typing.
1622382398639.png
1622382279573.png
with Psychic to hit
1622382131656.png
like
1622382201466.png
1622382131656.png
Latias or Sludge Bomb to hit
1622382201466.png
1622382167075.png
Mew is interesting tbh.
On all of this variants you can put HDB or LO because you're not weak to SR.

1622382279573.png
is good but is walled by
1622382463590.png
mon like Ttar or Hippo. Bulky Water like Slowking-galar works and there's also mon like
1622382201466.png
1622382416095.png
/
1622382295498.png
1622382416095.png
Latios. Blissey can Teleport without taking a lot one the Hurricane at +2. A good version overall which especially has a good defensive typing usefull against mon like Rilla, LandoT, etc.
1622382279573.png
1622382114832.png
is interesting with a good coverage (especially with Sludge Bomb to hit
1622382167075.png
or
1622382167075.png
1622382279573.png
Clef or Psychic to hit
1622382398639.png
1622382201466.png
like Slowbro). It's also a really nice answer to Spectrier!
1622382336413.png
1622382131656.png
is pretty similar to
1622382336413.png
1622382279573.png
but is immune to Toxic and isn't weak to Water, a common typing in Camo. You have to run Heat Wave or Focus Blast to deal with
1622382286605.png
or
1622382463590.png
.
1622382114832.png
1622382336413.png
isn't bad with Sludge Bomb coverage to hit
1622382167075.png
1622382416095.png
Clef or Heat Wave against
1622382286605.png
1622382167075.png
but Dark Pulse can lack of power even at +2 to kill
1622382416095.png
mon like Lati@s. Finally
1622382279573.png
1622382131656.png
with Psychic coverage to hit
1622382201466.png
or
1622382131656.png
is a good one despite being hard walled by the common
1622382279573.png
1622382179397.png
or
1622382179397.png
1622382201466.png
.
You necessarily has to run HDB on these versions because of their weakness to SR.

can be played too but haven't so much defensive utility in general (
1622382279573.png
and
1622382398639.png
can be played ig).

So TornaT is effectively an amazing bulky setup sweeper which can provide a decent defensive support. It particularly benefits to its large coverage to virtually hit everything. Nevertheless TornaT has to choose what it wants to hit in practice and suffers from the 4 ms syndrome. The effectiveness of TornaT highly depends of the MU.

Nevertheless, there's response to all the TornaT, let's take a look:

:slowking:
1622382279573.png
1622382179397.png
/
1622382179397.png
1622382201466.png

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Spa / 152 SpD (incomplete)
Sassy Nature
- Earthquake
- Scald / Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Dragon Tail / Focus Blast

Prob the best counter to TornaT, outside of Grass Knot, AV Slowking can check all the NP TornaT and 2HKO it with Scald (
), Ice beam (
1622382336413.png
) or Earthquake (
1622382131656.png
).
1622382398639.png
1622382114832.png
is the only one which can potentially pose problems because you can't 2HKO it (you have to hit FB) and you're 2HKO by LO FB and 3HKO by LO Dark Pulse. But ngl this a really good counter.
Obviously you also can play :slowking-galar: , better SpA but weaker EQ.

:blissey:
1622382189869.png
1622382432304.png
/
1622382432304.png
1622382167075.png

Blissey (F) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Dazzling Gleam / Shadow Ball
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock / Thunder Wave / Toxic / Seismic Toss
- Teleport / Move listed above

Well let's be clear, Blissey can't win against TornaT in 1v1. But Blissey is a good pivot against most TornaT. You can playe 252 Def / 252 SpD to maximize your SpD and avoid 2HKO from Focus Blast or Hurricane LO at +2. TornaT is always weak to Thunder Wave and if you paralysed it, it will become more or less useless for the rest of the game. Note that
can't handle correctly
1622382131656.png
variants and
has trouble against
variants. A good check overall that you have to paired with a rk like Dragapult.

:tornadus-therian:
1622382131656.png
/
1622382355391.png
1622382286605.png
/
1622382336413.png
1622382286605.png
/
1622382398639.png
1622382114832.png
/
1622382398639.png
1622382279573.png
/
1622382286605.png
1622382279573.png

Tornadus-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 36 Atk / 152 SpD / 72 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Knock Off
- Superpower / Heat Wave
- U-turn

1622382114832.png
1622382131656.png
is the only version which can check decently all the TornaT. You always can endure one hit from +2 LO FB/Hurricane and U-Turn on a rk but you take a huge bar and you won't be able to come back on an offensive special threat. Not a really good check but can save you at least once. Others work again specific version.

:clefable:
1622382114832.png
1622382131656.png


Works very well ngl. Just has to keep attention to LO Focus Blast or Hurricane because 252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus-Therian Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 161-191 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery.
:reuniclus:
1622382167075.png
1622382286605.png
/
1622382286605.png
1622382416095.png

Reuniclus @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Flash Cannon
- Charm / Thunder
- Focus Blast
- Knock Off

1622382167075.png
1622382286605.png
works again all but
.

:latias:
1622382279573.png
1622382416095.png
/
1622382416095.png
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/
1622382201466.png
1622382131656.png
/
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/
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/
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1622382131656.png
/
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/
1622382201466.png
1622382189869.png
/ …

Generally a decent check to TornaT ngl. You can cover many of them and checks others with another bulky mon.

:latios:
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/
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1622382416095.png
/
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/
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/
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1622382201466.png
/ …

Similar at Latias, can check and kill many of them.

:hippowdon:
1622382463590.png
1622382131656.png

Hippodown @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Black Sludge
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Rock Slide / Stone Edge
- Toxic
- Steath Rock / Whirwind / Curse
- Slack Off


Check all appart from
1622382398639.png
1622382114832.png
/
1622382398639.png
1622382131656.png
. Be careful about Psychic too.

:tyranitar:
1622382463590.png
1622382189869.png
/
1622382463590.png
1622382201466.png
/
1622382463590.png
1622382295498.png


All but for the Rock/Ghost and all but
1622382398639.png
for the other.

:cresselia:
1622382167075.png
/
1622382167075.png
1622382416095.png


Considering its high bulk, its acces to CM and Toxic, Cresselia is a decent check against TornaT. Nevertheless it loses against
1622382336413.png
1622382279573.png
,
1622382336413.png
1622382131656.png
,
1622382279573.png
1622382131656.png
and prob against
1622382398639.png
1622382131656.png
and
1622382131656.png
so isn't very good in fact.

:heatran:
1622382286605.png
1622382279573.png
/
1622382286605.png
1622382179397.png
/
1622382295498.png
1622382286605.png
/
1622382286605.png
1622382114832.png


All but
1622382398639.png
or FB as coverage.

Special mention to Coalossal here with
1622382286605.png
1622382179397.png
/
1622382286605.png
1622382279573.png
or
1622382286605.png
1622382201466.png
which did the same thing.

I will stop here but there's other checks to specific version like Mew
1622382201466.png
1622382416095.png
or
1622382279573.png
1622382416095.png
Victini.

Conlusion about TornaT

Globally, it's hard to endure all the TornaT variants but, you can check many of them with 2 slots. If I only have to consider its offensive aspect, I think I will be for a ban. But obviously TornaT doesn't have only this bad side. The pivot and AV are really good and help to balanced the metagame. I think TornaT is less broken as Hydreigon despite Regenerator and its high speed because you can check it with many of viable mon (Slowking AV, Unaware Clef, Lati@s, etc) and it's easier to rk it with mon like Dpult or Choice Scarfer.

Volcarona

:volcarona:
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/
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1622388098303.png
/
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1622382355391.png
/
1622382279573.png
1622388198992.png


Volcarona more like Volcorona... This mon is particularly annoying in Camomons. It takes advantage (like CM users) of the passive walls used against some breaker and the special orientation of the metagame (it's hard or impossible to rk it with special mons).

We all know Volcarona, Fire coverage, Quiver Dance, Roost and Flame Body. Idk if this is me but I feel Volcarona is clearly unhealthy for the meta and banworthy.

As I said earlier, it's really hard to rk Volcarona. All the special breaker like Dragapult, Latios, Noivern, etc can't do enough dammage after one or two QD. It can just continue to setup on your face. Rillaboom can't rk Volcarona. Extreme Speed users lack of power to rk Volcarona and, if you're not
1622382279573.png
(
1622382279573.png
1622382432304.png
K9/Entei) you risk a burn on Flame Body. Event mon like Pheromosa (faster than bulky Volcarona) can't do anything against it.

1622382279573.png
1622382336413.png
is an excellent typing for Volcarona provides it a
1622382179397.png
immunity and a
1622382398639.png
resist, two common physical typing. Especially the
1622382179397.png
immunity is the perfect counter to EQ that didn't fear Flame Body.
1622382279573.png
1622388098303.png
is an anti-meta version. The most common answer to Volcarona is Toxic and, in Camomons, most of the Toxic users are
1622382131656.png
and weak to Psychic. Even mon like
1622382114832.png
1622382131656.png
AV TornaT can lose against this Volca because it can spams Roost until you being burned.

Note: Volcarona can be
1622382131656.png
to prevents to be poisoned despite that more niche (you're mono attacker or no Roost).

What we have against it? (see the note above).

:heatran:
1622382286605.png
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/
1622382286605.png
1622382179397.png
/
1622382295498.png
1622382286605.png
/
1622382286605.png
1622382114832.png


Tran needs Toxic to win against Volca. Stone Edge also works. Roar can save you during a moment.

:blissey:
1622382189869.png
1622382432304.png
/
1622382432304.png
1622382167075.png


Needs Toxic or Confide lol. You can try TW + Teleport on a physical rk like Cinderace or Lycanroc-Dusk.

:slowking: ?
1622382279573.png
1622382179397.png
/
1622382179397.png
1622382201466.png

Slowking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Spa / 152 SpD (incomplete)
Sassy Nature
- Earthquake
- Scald / Flamethrower
- Ice Beam
- Dragon Tail / Focus Blast

Remember this one? Don't work against
1622382279573.png
1622382336413.png
Volca. At best you can force it to switch thanks to Dtail.

:tyranitar: & :hippowdon:
Hard counters to Volca with the
1622382463590.png
typing.

:clefable: & :toxapex:
1622382114832.png
1622382131656.png


Works unless it's
1622382131656.png
or Safeguard Volca. In that case you ended up being burned and prob lose on the long run (if no Seismic Toss Clef).

Generally you need a good special bulk or a
1622382279573.png
resist + Toxic to check Volca.

There's also decent check like
1622382279573.png
1622382416095.png
Victini,
1622382279573.png
1622382432304.png
K9/Entei,

CM vs QD war? Haha yeah that's a way... a fun way...

Conclusion about Volcarona

Volcarona is a mon which has always depended to the MU. In Camomons this fact is accentued by the
1622388098303.png
variant used to hit
1622382131656.png
+ Toxic mons. It's possible to check Volcarona but it's super hard to revenge kill it with common mons. Generally, the answer to Volcarona is Toxic but there is a world where Volca is immune to Toxic thanks to Toxic or Safeguard. I feel Volcarona is unhealthy for the metagame but for the moment, isn't a priority.

Slowking-galar

:slowking-galar:
1622382201466.png
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/
1622382131656.png
1622382279573.png
/
1622382279573.png
1622382201466.png
/
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1622382114832.png
/
1622382201466.png
1622382131656.png


With a great movepool, a really good bulk, Regenerator and NP (and CM), Slowking-g is definitely a really nice setup sweeper. Physcial answers have troubles to come on it because of Scald and it's hard to OHKO it with special attackers thanks to its amazing SpD. He can easily Sub on a passive mon and see what's happening without losing health thanks to Regenerator. More threatening that we cannot believe. However i think CM is better than NP on it.

It's hard to find a really good SI to all variants of Slowking-galar but it's generally possible to play arround it. A bit like Volcarona, this mon is an anti-meta thing which abuses from the special orientation of the metagame and Scald against physical mon. Scald is also a good way to pressure usual SI like
1622382131656.png
1622382114832.png
Unaware Clef or
1622382131656.png
1622382114832.png
Pex/TornaT. Really good mon but not necessarily stupid with NP (but CM...).

Celebi

1622394535065.png


:celebi:
1622382179397.png
1622382189869.png
/
1622382179397.png
1622382167075.png
/
1622382179397.png
1622388098303.png


Let's be clear,Chazm is right! NP Celebi is better in general. But, CM also has a niche on it. As CM Spectrier can be used instead of NP Spectrier. You sacrifice a lot of power but become harder to revenge kill. For example CM Celebi can place itself on Slowking and break it then NP it forced to switch out.

Celebi is an interesting bulky setup sweeper with NP, Recover and Natural Cure. The
1622382179397.png
typing is really efficient against some anti-setup thing like
1622382114832.png
1622382131656.png
Unaware Clef or Pex. Celebi is similar to Mew with a much smaller movepools but a better talent. Generally isn't so hard to wall it with Levitate, Fly or Water mons. It can surprise sometimes but it generally outclassed by other breakers more powerfull and more faster breaker.

Mew

:mew:


Mew is a good setup sweeper thanks to its really good bulk, its access to Roost/Soft Boiled and... ITS INFINITE MOVEPOOLS!! Indeed, outside of its amazing coverage with eveything that you want, Mew has NP, SD, CM, BU and DD. You can play it as physical breaker with SD, special breaker with Nasty Plot, Bulky Special/Physical Breaker with CM/BU or finally, Physcial Sweeper with DD.
Mew is the perfect mon for whatever you want on the paper.

Nevertheless, Mew has many defaults. It really lacks of immediate power so you have the time to react against it. It's generally weak to Toxic (Toxic mon are generally
1622382131656.png
so they don't fear Synchronize). If you want te be a bulky setup sweeper, you need a recovery move and a setup move that imposes half of your moveslots. You have 2 moves to hit and with that, you can't have a perfect coverage although its movepools would have allowed it. If you also want an immunity to Toxic, you must run a
1622382131656.png
or
1622382286605.png
(these two typing are weak to
1622382179397.png
) move so you just have one last slot.

Mew is the perfect example of the perfect mon on the paper but encounters many problems in practice. Attention, I don't say that it's bad far from there, just it must to make choices that will leave it at the mercy of the MU. Moreover, Mew is often outclassed by on other setup sweeper. For exampe,
1622382286605.png
1622382336413.png
is outclassed by Hydreigon which has Levitate and more immediate power,
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is outclassed by Lati@s generally,
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is overpowered by TornaT, etc

Mew as bulky setup sweeper isn't really a problem despite we can have a more or less good MU against it (dw it's just Camo here).


Below we're looking at Physical bulky setup sweepers. Note that all of them are weak to Scald, a really common move in Camomons. Moreover there's mon like LandoT, Salamence, Buzzwole and Cress which are generally efficient against physical bulky setup sweepers. Finally, considering the state of the metagame, mon generally run physical def oriented typing to abuse from move like CM so, physcial setup sweeper are clearly in a less good position compared to the special setup sweepers.

Buzzwole

:buzzwole:
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Well generally Buzzwole isn't seen as "bulky setup sweeper". In fact it run Bulk Up simply because it has nothing better lol. However Buzzwole is a good setup sweeper with an amazing physical bulk and many good typing. Unfortunaly for it, it's slow and its SpD is too bad. The metagame don't play in its favor and we can wall all of them simply with a
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slowbro for example. Lati@s and TornaT also gives an hard time to Buzzwole in general.

Garchomp

:garchomp:

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Chomp is a good bulky setup sweeper despite it hasn't recovery. Usually you play 2 STAB + SR + SD. But ngl there's plenty of checks to it like Lati@s, LandoT, Salamence, Buzz, Cress, etc. Not a problem.

Gyarados

:gyarados:
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Pretty similar to Salamence but without Roost. However you have Power Whip to hit Waters. With Gyaradosite and the
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typing it's a excellent answer to CM Levitate shit like Cress or Lati@s.
Pick
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Latios, easy win.

Landorus-Therian

:landorus-therian:
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Nop LandoT is a bad bulky setup sweeper. Easy to wall and rk it. Play Garchomp or Terrakion instead of it.

Salamence

:salamence:
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With a good bulk & movepools and access to DD and Roost, Salamence is a decent bulky setup sweeper. Ngl isn't really good and generally it's not so difficult to check it but can be effective in certain MU. I will no extend on its case because there's many check despite the several versions and in practise, isn't so difficult to check it.

Scizor

:scizor:
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Dual Wingbeat + Bullet Punch with Technician brrr. A really interesting mon on the paper with a nice defensive typing and Roost + SD. Nevertheless there's many
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in the metagame and Scizor setup sweeper has a really hard time against them.


And we've done the trick, haven't we?

So what to remember?

No, this is wrong, there are not as many bulky setup sweepers as you think appart from Calm Minder and it's possible to deal with in general despite the number of variants for one mon. Hydreigon is the only exception here because yeah it's broken. TornaT and Volcarona are really good and, in the future can be banworthy. However responses against them exist and are viable. Slowking-g is also annoying but, without CM, which is the batter version in my opinion, will be more managable. Mew is too versatile but not broken. Celebi is a good anti-meta setup sweeper but isn't complicate to deal with in general.
Finally, all the physical bulky setup sweepers are fine and, despite many versions sometimes, we don't have to bring stupid shit like Unaware mons to deal with them. We just have to build properly and especially have offensive counterplay.

There're other setup sweeper but no really bulky. We can think to Naganadel with NP but easier to rk with priority or scarfer mon. SD like Blaziken, Lycanroc-Dusk, Haxorus or Weavile are extremely frail so it's easy to rk them. Work Up mons like Entei or K9 aren't broken at all. DD Haxorus is really frail.

But Calm Minders are on a totally different level (see post above).

"Calm Mind isn't a problem, we only have to watch its main abusers and ban them"

This isn't a objective and durable solutions guys seriously. Yeah you can ban Latias and Latios but there're just a liiiiitle part of the problem. It won't solve anything! There're many Calm Mind abusers, more than all the other bulky setup sweepers (just look!). Banning Latias and Latios will just let Hydreigon absolutely destroy all the metagame and can put TornaT, Pheromosa and Volcarona out of control (isn't an argument, if they're out of control we just ban it). Mons like Raikou, Slowking-galar, Magearna, Spectrier, Reuniclus, etc will be happy to rule over the metagame with Calm Mind until now in the shadows of CM Lati@s. It won't solve anything.
At best, you will have just reduced and moved the problem.

"Calm Mind is a move, we can't ban it lol. You're stupid man"

W.o.r.s.t a.r.g.u.m.e.n.t e.v.e.r.

Because Calm Mind is a move we can't ban it? Excuse me, what's about Baton Pass in OU? Baton Pass, like Calm Mind in Camomons isn't broken in itself. But why BP is banned? Because, in the recent gen, there's many abusers (passer and receiver) that make it a stupid move, unbalanced. Users itself aren't broken and receivers either but, the combination of the two make it broken. Ban the main passers and receivers is stupid when you just "nerf" the problem and ban mons which are not broken. So yeah, we decided to ban Baton Pass, a move.

We also ban moves in STABmons.

"Yeah but that's normal Siamato, in STABmons it's logical to ban powerful moves"

Oh yeah you're right! No shut up. In STABmons we're banning moves when there's many abusers and that is the only solution. Otherwise, we ban mons. Glacial Lance isn't banned but Kyurem and Mamoswine are. Simply because Glacial Lance put Kyurem and Mamosine out of range but is fine on the other mons.

There's exactly the same logic in BH. If there's many abusers, we ban the move/talent but if there's only a mon which is the problem, we ban it.

More recently in the Smogon's history, Sleeping moves have been banned from BW OU. Many abusers and uncompetitive move. The OU council also think to discuss move like Teleport. But they are wrong! We can't ban a move from OU no?? Haha imagine.

So yeah i said it again even if you think I'm stupid, we can ban Calm Mind despite it's a move!

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Forget about the "W.o.r.s.t a.r.g.u.m.e.n.t e.v.e.r." i finded one better!

How can I say that without getting carried away?

LOL really man are you fucking serious?!?! We don't give a shit about what the other think! Many people don't like Camomons and they have the right to do so, but they will NEVER have a word to say in the evolution of the tier. You can't be influenced by them. I try to improve the metagame and I don't care at all that people call me "stupid" or something like that. What i do is just for the sake of the Camomons's metagame and for its playerbase.

"Camomons is unfixable"

Finally i will finish with that screen:

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Are you the Camomons's tier leader in the hills ? Because, well, you recognize that your tier has a problem but well, it's too complicate to resolve it so, you give up? It's fine if the tier dies in silence because nobody wants to play it considering this tier is broken. I appreciate you ITH but ngl, this isn't the mentality that a TL should be have. If you're not ready to do whatever you can for your tier, just leaves your place and let another motivated man (certainly not me because i'm technically retired) take care.

Camomons obviously has inherent problem and we can't do anything about that. You're right. This is also the case in AAA or BH. There's many possibility and generally you can't cover all of them easily and have to accept the idea that the MU has more importance. Camomons isn't more broken than these tier lol. OMs in general are less competitive than official metagame because there's more possibilities. But this is also what is interesting no?

Conclusion

Like I said before, there's plenty of CM abusers, more than all the other viable form of bulky setup. There's no effective balanced counterplay and especially offensive counterplay against CM abusers. The other setup mon like NP, Bulk Up, Sword Dance, etc are easier to rk considering the special oriented state of the metagame. Mon like Specs Dpult, Pheromosa, Scarf Lati@s/LandoT/Urshifu/etc can rk it in general. Calm Mind completely centralize the metagame arround its users and forces to play not so good or unviable mon against it (for example Unaware Clef loses against Hydreigon, Celebi and physical oriented setup so isn't a miracle solution against setup). All you can do against CM is pray to have chose the correct answer against the CM bulky setup mon(s) of your opponent. Calm Mind highly invalidate Balanced team which is a real problem when Smogon's tiering policy is to balanced, as much as possible the tier.


I don't know if i finally reached you with my post but i really do whatever i can to show you the problem. I tried to be as objective as possible without personal bias. I discused your arguments and I highlighted that there are wrong or inexact. I was open to discussion in my previous post but no one has deigned to respond despite my best efforts. I had to ask myself some players for feedback in pm or on the OMs server.

Thanks for reading, apologies for my english and my outburst but, I feel like I've found a solution to considerably improve the state and the balance of the metagame and no one has interest to it... Maybe i should have stop this game forever and stop losing my time.
 

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Hi there Siamato - I'm writing this post late into the night because I feel like a response to this is needed from my position as a council member. This post is not actually in opposition of a Calm Mind ban - infact I've actually become more enlightened to this as an actually practical tiering solution, like the recent Light Clay ban in UnderUsed. I honestly do not know why your post is attracting so much negativity from someone who is so passionate about their beliefs in helping the metagame progress. I do however, have some thoughts to post regarding both your post and the tiering actions that I think should go forward.

Regarding: Setup quantity

:latias: :latios: :clefable:

The post is a little misleading in an attempt to promote Calm Mind users here. Not all of the CM users listed in the first post were exactly viable options: I had a discussion in a private discord with anaconja over this, and here's the image that anaconja gave me whilst discussing the viability of these options. Though I do disagree with some of the opinions (most of these CM users are legit, they just aren't used that often, aside from Spectrier), I do feel that it's a good listing with regards to some of the more dubious picks in this list.

camo setup exhibit 1.png

(White slashes are variants not seen, orange slashes are variants not considered viable as bulky setup (I only believe Jirachi is the unviable out of these), and red are mons with little viability overall.)

If you disregard this, you may also notice that there are a fair amount of other "bulky setup" users which can abuse a few different moves.

Howl

:arcanine: (Actually a very solid utility mon, but can still snowball with Howl + Morning Sun on certain Normal/Fire or Normal/Dark sets.)

Nasty Plot

:alakazam: (Can use Recover on NP sets to abuse certain pivots like Slowbro and Blissey reliably, and has a high speed tier which can make it tough to approach) / :porygon-z: (Likewise with Alakazam, it can use Recover to abuse certain pivots) / :slowbro: / :slowking: (Viability questionable)

Swords Dance

:mew: (Actually a potent option of this, but it's Mew, what are you gonna do?) / :rillaboom: (Surprised this mon got missed given how it's capable of trading with a lot of otherwise decent answers by virtue of its bulk.)

To me, this pushes the count of viable options up from the amount of CM users listed. I don't think CM is necessarily the world-saving solution, but it is certainly the biggest problem with bulky setup and not a bad compromise given the amount of the top tiers that are included within CM users.

Regarding: Celebi

:celebi:

don't touch my baby, I will protect them

The reason I tend to find Celebi better with NP rather than CM is that the CM sets tend to be outdone by another, better bulky setup user (like the Slowtwins or Clefable). However, NP does have its own, very solid niche as a breaker that abuses even the best typings in the current meta and has the ability to run the blessed Ghost/Fairy typing, a unique aspect not a lot of mons can replicate. NP sets also tend to synergize better with Natural Cure, as it means other bulky setup or just bulky mons in general can't stall it out as easily. Whilst not unviable, I believe it's important to mention that I feel they're outclassed.

Regarding: Inability to fix bulky setup

Coming from me, and me alone on this point. Nobody else is responsible for what "bulky setup is unfixable" in Camomons means to anyone else. But to me, I admit it was a fatalistic way of mentioning my own opinions on bulky offense, and that is effectively that I will always believe that bulky setup will be a centralizing aspect. I have slowly opened my eyes up to CM ban as an emergency life support option. But I've also realized that Camomons has a bunch of other centralizing aspects that are just unique to it. Think of why the best typings like Dark/Poison, Water/Poison or Water/Ground are spammed as they are: they're by design good typings that can't really be avoided without a horrendous complex ban that would remove that individual typing from the metagame. The same thing goes for Latias really - its typing range is centralizing, but not necessarily overpowered. It will always be a good option due to how it synergizes with top tier typings and its access to Levitate + multiple different utility aspects just make it an inevitable tier staple. But those CM sets are not necessarily overpowered due to the lack of power behind them and the poor punishing power they have, making Latias vulnerable to Electric types, status immunes and a plethora of other good types that also wall Latias out for days like Dragon/Steel. A simple combination of a few good typings can just flatout beat most bulky setup users - I'll mention the ones I think are actually problematic below and what reasonings I have for them.

Regarding: My opinions on how to go forward with regards to bulky setup:

A lot of the following will be based on the presumption that you can build checklists-by-typing, as I find this to be the most effective way to not only deal with bulky setup but to deal with nearly every threat in Camomons, period. This is also the way I tend to deal with mons like Hydreigon, Clefable and Latias / Latios and why I tend to believe they're very powerful but not broken (aside from maybe Latios, I think Latios might be a little too much). The best bulky setup abusers tend to either be capable of negating these problems or are capable of outright surpassing them (see: Slowking-Galar).

Possible bans that could go through as a result of not using the Calm Mind ban:

1) Slowking-Galar

:slowking-galar:

Holy shit I hate this mon. I hate this mon so much - even WITH banning CM, this mon ends up being insanely obnoxious down to its 30% status inflicting moves and access to Regenerator, allowing it to pretty much 0 risk bruteforce its way past otherwise good answers like Electric Latios. There are pretty much no good answers to this mon in the current metagame without either putting excessive offensive pressure onto the teams that Slowking-Galar ends up being on, or initiating a setup war with a specific answer like Reuniclus, Latias or certain typed physical mons given cleric support, which is STILL bruteforcable due to status percentages and Slowking-Galar's amazing capability to run effectiveness berries, making counterplay even more strict. This mon I feel needed a quickban even before this conversation, and I have only seen more evidence pointing towards Slowking-Galar being broken.

2) Hydreigon

:hydreigon:

Has a ridiculous typing pool, and is capable of making itself the master of multiple matchups. I've even been trying out some typings that would seem awkward, but exploit the typing-based builds that Camomons houses, forcing particular typings like Steel/Flying onto teams that don't exactly have many good users. I do not feel very strongly about Hydreigon but I do believe a quickban is in order to dampen matchup issues even outside of bulky setup.

3) Reuniclus and Tornadus-Therian

:reuniclus: :tornadus-therian:

These two mons act in a different way to Slowking-Galar but can be just as obnoxious. Both of them have access to Regenerator, simply making the chip game impossible - you'll either need a hard answer or enough offensive pressure to just overwhelm them. However, this is where the similarities end. Reuniclus also has access to some pretty frustrating Magic Guard sets (Ghost/Fighting, Psychic/Fighting) that outright change the way that Reuniclus is approached and tends to mess up scouting opposing typings. In combination with the Regen + CM sets (Steel/Psychic, Steel/Ghost), this can make Reuniclus extremely frustrating to pivot around as the counterplay is nearly entirely different for both variants, and with play needing to be perfect around a mon that has nearly no risk of staying in and clicking moves, it makes Reuniclus overall a headache to deal with. Tornadus-Therian acts quite differently however, being a mon that has a lot more proactivity in its setup capabilities, however, due to its access to Sludge Bomb and various other strong typings in its own right, not only does it end up being an exceedingly splashable wincon but a wincon that is also capable of forcing heinous pressure on balance & bulky offense. Recent play has opened me up to believe that NP Tornadus-Therian could be broken anyway, just down to how unpredictable and frustrating it can be to misplay against it.

These two I think should be looked at in weeks 1-7 of OMPL IX.

4) Latias and Latios

:latias: :latios:

These two mons have always been fairly controversial for me. I already described Latias above, stating that it's just a very good abuser of how Camomons is and that it does have some pretty solid counterplay, but I do feel a lot more frustrated with Latios and how its Water/Dragon and Electric/Dragon sets specifically are extremely frustrating to deal with*, and out of this list it's actually the setup mon I've swept the most teams with. Counterplay to those particular typings when backed with the insane power that Life Orb Draco Meteor has really isn't that great when you also consider Latios' excellent speed tier that puts it above strong picks like Mew, Hydreigon, Victini and Salamence. The extra SpDef compared to Hydreigon can also make it difficult to approach without being Dragon-type yourself, which aside from a very particular typing in Dragon/Fairy that only one Pokemon (Necrozma) can really run effectively, making it exceedingly hard to check with a competent build. Whilst you could also complain that Latias has these qualities, it does not have the same SpA that Latios does, making checks like Clefable and Toxapex more viable.

*(even outside of CM, I think these sets are broken; with a BW style Trick + Recover Specs set, Latios is extremely frustrating to approach and only has a few good answers, even by typing, such as Zarude, Coalossal or Ferrothorn)

Because of Latias' importance, I believe that it should only be looked into banning after OMPL unless a tech is discovered that outright breaks it, but I do believe that Latios should be looked at in weeks 1-7 of OMPL IX.

5) Clefable

I don't think Clefable is broken right now. It's a paragon of bulky setup but it's also one of the easiest mons to take advantage of by typing, which has already been seen by players like The Number Man running certain Steel-types & Fire/Grounds to get around Clefable's various antics, both of which effectively shut it down permanently. Not only this but Clefable is also an excellent role compressor and a key defensive Pokemon for balances wishing to get around bulky setup as is.

Finally - if all of these end up being too much for you to ban and you feel would completely annihilate the identity that Camomons has as a metagame, the simple next best solution is...

6) Ban Calm Mind.

Put very simply I think banning CM is a pretty bandaid solution and if this still doesn't work to help the metagame if this path is chosen, then I feel unbanning Calm Mind and banning the broken abusers is simply the next step to take forward, like the posts in regard to UU's Light Clay ban. The same can be said if most of the Pokemon here are banned anyway without having access to Calm Mind - reinstating Calm Mind because most of the abusers are gone is simply the next tiering step forward. However, this would also be the simplest ban to help return the metagame to a balanced state - this is where I think your decision really comes into its own and gives us some more time to decide whether the following are broken before Sword & Shield come to an end. This tier needs help, and this is not a solution I'd like, but as an ultimatum; to me it is either the plans I have listed out above, or it is this. If anyone else can come up with another solution that gets around this and doesn't complex ban multiple aspects from the game, I would love to hear it.

P.S - I actually hate Magearna in Camo - I feel like it's too slow and doesn't have enough longevity to compete with the best and tends to sit in a rather stale limbo where it wishes it could just get the right pacing.

This is me signing off for now. Let me know if you have any developments regarding the meta and what you've been using, it's awesome hearing the community collaborate and race for the best in a metagame designed around the builder.
 

in the hills

spreading confusion
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Thank you for the post Siamato, I will try to keep this reply brief because I believe you have already talked enough for the both of us.
I'd like to start off this post that yes, while I did say this issue is unfixable at it's core, I never said we weren't going to try doing anything about it. The assumption and accusation that I would just give up on this tier after all of the years of work I've put into it is highly insulting and I want to get that out of the way before anything. I want what's best for this metagame, and I (and the entire rest of the council) do not believe that banning Calm Mind is what is best for this metagame. Additionally, as an OM moderator, I have discussed this with the OM leaders and we are in agreement that discussion of this ban should not continue.

To highlight some of the discussions we've had in our council chat, we've discussed looking into numerous number of Pokemon throughout OMPL and making decisions once we receive actual community feedback for once. We do not think making hasty decisions at this time is a good idea nor do we believe this situation is one that should be taken lightly, so we are being cautious on making the right choices. This caution should not be mistaken as us not wanting to do anything about it. You said in your first post that you weren't saying "BAN THIS NOW" but make a post a few days later attacking our supposed lack of response? I'm not sure I understand why your post came with such hostility towards us, though I can sympathize with your frustration about this situation.

We've discussed Clefable, Hydreigon, Slowking-Galar, Reuniclus, and the Latis plus a few others potentially down the line. I personally am of the opinion that Hydreigon should be quickbanned, while I'd like to see more development on the rest. As it currently stands though, I personally think that Clefable and the Latis are worthy of being banned early on, and I'm beginning to agree more on Slowking-Galar. I do not currently believe Reuniclus is an issue at the moment, though I will see what happens down the road. I'll end this post here since Chazm just posted, but expect to hear more in the near future as OMPL brings long needed metagame development.

If you have issues with me as tier leader, please direct them to me personally; I do not appreciate being called out in some sort of 'gotcha' post that twists my words after all of the energy I have put in to get this tier to where it is now. Thank you.
 
Thanks for your answer Chazm. Your post is of high quality and proposes concrete solutions to explore during or after the OMPL to improve the state of the metagame. I think we are in general agreement on the issues that need to be addressed, but I will try to answer point by point where I may have some disagreements. While you don't think that banning CM is the solution, I thank you for simply considering it as a possibility worth discussing.

The post is a little misleading in an attempt to promote Calm Mind users here. Not all of the CM users listed in the first post were exactly viable options: I had a discussion in a private discord with anaconja over this, and here's the image that anaconja gave me whilst discussing the viability of these options. Though I do disagree with some of the opinions (most of these CM users are legit, they just aren't used that often, aside from Spectrier), I do feel that it's a good listing with regards to some of the more dubious picks in this list.

camo setup exhibit 1.png

(White slashes are variants not seen, orange slashes are variants not considered viable as bulky setup (I only believe Jirachi is the unviable out of these), and red are mons with little viability overall.)
Indeed, :latias: :latios: :magearna: :reuniclus: :slowking-galar: are more viable than the others. But is mon like Raikou, Keldeo, Necrozma, Slowking, Slowbro (and galarian-Slowbro) are bad and we should not take it into account?

I don't think so. In the scenario where the most actual CMs users are banned (Lati@s and G-Slowking in particular), the above mentioned mons will simply come out of the shadows. Why? Well, they're not bad after all but they're currently outclassed by other CM users. Raikou can be a good alternative to some versions of Lati@s as a fast CM setup sweeper with Thunderbolt, Scald, Shadow Ball and Aurasphere. Without Slowking-galar, what's about Slowking, Slowbro and Slowbro-galar? I agree there're currently outclassed by G-Slowking but, even if it's banned, they're very good alternative. Slowking is a bit weaker (offensively) but appart from Sludge Bomb, it can do more or less the same job. G-Slowbro globally has the same movepools as G-Slowking and CM helps its low SpD stat. Jirachi is a low cost Clefable in general but it still has move like Draco-Meteor, Flash Cannon and Encore. Its Sub can be fat enough to endure move like Moonblast or Tbolt from Clef so it can click Moonblast with 60% chance to drop Spa and is virtually immune to crit thanks to its Sub. Odds are always in your favor when you play Jira. Hatterene isn't in a good position rn but isn't bad nevertheless. A set with Draining Kiss, Nuzzle/Giga Drain, Psyshock/Stored Power/ and CM can be effective. Necrozma isn't a great CM abuser but
1622382295498.png
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with Metronome can works against other Calm Minder.
1622382167075.png
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also provides a really good defensive typing with EP or Heat Wave as good coverage. Sigilyph was good until it wasn't. It's faster and stronger than many CM users (we always think in the optical of a Lati@s ban) with a really good movepools.
1622382286605.png
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Tinted Lens with Ice beam to freeze and win you CM war or beat Unaware Clef, it's an ABR strat but why not?
You also can play Psyshock to CM war. The biggest problem of this Pokémon as a bulky setup sweeper is its bulk but, outside of that, it has many qualities. Keldeo can be good but really suffers from Lati@s and Clefable ubiquity. Chandelure is bad yeah.

Also don't forget, if one CM abuser isn't enough, you can play too of them lol.

What I wanted to show here is, no, the "slashed" mons aren't bad, they're just outclassed for the moment but can be tomorrow's problems in the case of a ban from the actual most powerfull Calm Minders.


Regarding: the mons you mentionned as bulky setup sweepers

:arcanine:

A fun mon ngl. But despite it can sweep a weakened BO after Howl with Extreme Speed, it's really easy to wall it in general. So yeah, it derserves to be mentionned here (i thought i did it) but Arcanine is clearly not a problem as bulky setup sweeper.

:alakazam:

Uh not exactly what i thinking about when i read "bulky setup sweeper" but i understand the idea. With Magic Guard and Recover, Alakazam can place itself on passive mon. But which mon in fact? AV mon like TornaT or Slowking do enough damage respectively with Knock Off and EQ so Alakazam can't break them.

Can use Recover on NP sets to abuse certain pivots like Slowbro and Blissey reliably
Yeah but, isn't a problem no? You just have to put a fast rk like Rilla or Pheromosa (scarfer too but they're aren't highly viable considering the state of the metagame). Also Zam is just walled but
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Blissey because Shadow Ball do enough on Ghost variants. Zam isn't a problem as bulky setup sweeper.

:rillaboom:

I didn't mention Rillaboom yeah mb for that. I thinking about it but Rilla has limited options and is generally better as a stong breaker and revenge killer with Choice Band. But yeah SD isn't bad after all and can sweep if your check is weakened. SD set particularly suffers from Defensive TornaT, Lati@s, Hydreigon and LandoT which can easily force it to switch out.

:celebi:

Nothing to say. I perfectly agree with you on it. CM can be mentionned but is in fact completely outclassed by NP on this mon. You can defined it as bulky setup sweeper ofc but is not a problem considering it can only run 3-4 sets in practise and they're all fine.

Regarding: Inability to fix bulky setup
"I will always believe that bulky setup will be a centralizing aspect."

Bulky setup will always be good in Camomons yeah, no doubt about that. But outside of Calm Minders, there's not so much viable bulky setup sweepers and, appart from some mons (like Hydreigon or TornaT), that's easier to deal with especially with offensive counterplay.
In Camomons, i accept the idea that i can't manage everything with defensive counterplay but i can handle it with offensive counterplay. Unfort, find an effective offensive counterplay against Calm Minders is really hard considering there're many abusers which many typing. It's hard to rk it with physcial sweepers/breakers thanks to their physical def oriented typing and it's hard (impossible?) to rk it with special sweepers/breakers due to Calm Mind boosts.

"Think of why the best typings like Dark/Poison, Water/Poison or Water/Ground are spammed as they are: they're by design good typings that can't really be avoided without a horrendous complex ban that would remove that individual typing from the metagame."

Yes they are but is just a consequence of the Camomons's mecanic in fact. There's a lot of possibilities in Camomons so, to try to manage them, we run "blank" defensive typing with as few weaknesses as possible and we count on high bulk to endure hits. For example Camo has
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mons and AAA has Swampert. But there's not so much bulky setup sweepers that abuse from those typing tbh. Also, since those typing are spammed we have just to prep against. What I wanted to say here is, yeah there's some really good and splashable typing defensively that can be a bit unhealthy but they help to balance stong offensive typing like Fire, Elec, Dark, etc. They are not a problem.

But those CM sets are not necessarily overpowered due to the lack of power behind them and the poor punishing power they have, making Latias vulnerable to Electric types, status immunes and a plethora of other good types that also wall Latias out for days like Dragon/Steel.
CM Latias isn't overpowerd yeah. It's just a little part of a larger problem incarnated by CM. That's perfecly true that Latias lacks of immediate power but what? All the CM users lack of immediate power in fact except from Latios. Nevertheless counterplay perspectives are really limited ngl. Ok Latias will not pick kills instantly but what you can do against it?

  • Hard a rk or a stong breaker to force it to switch out. It works as long as the breaker has enough health to stand up after CM. Not a durable solution.

  • Bring back a hard counter. For example, Volcanion
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    hard wall Latias in general. You can also think to
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    Zarude because Mystical Fire isn't common on the CM set (for obvious reason). I didn't choose these mon at random. They're both great against some good CM users like
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    Clef, many Ti@s, Slowking-g, etc. But there's 2 things to notice.
  1. Are they good in general and not specific tech against those CM users?
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    Volcanion isn't bad but is really passive, a good Defogger at least. Zarude is fun but you need BU to break CM users and Jungle Healing to avoid Scald's burn. So yeah you completely walled by Steel or Fire.
  2. What's about the others? Slowking-g and Clef can be Fire against Zarude. Spectrier is Spectrier but NP is more played anw.
Which is winning?
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Zarude or
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Latios ?​
+1 252 Atk Zarude Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 167-197 (55.4 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​
+2 252 SpA Latios Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zarude: 153-181 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery​
+2 252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Zarude: 221-261 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​
The winner is... *drum roll* Latios!​
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Latios get a 2HKO on Zarude with Shadow Ball at +1(Latias too but need a good invest in Spa).​
You also can try gimmick/niche version like
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Lati@s. Necrozma
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win against both (bulk against Volcanion and Heat Wave vs Zarude). Something like
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/
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/
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(tinted for this one) Reuniclus easily win. There're other CM users that win against both of those "great mon against CM users in general" but i will not mentionned them due to their lack of viability.​
  • Play Unaware
    1622382114832.png
    1622382131656.png
    :clefable: , a "general" answer to Special setup. I discussed in my first post about CM why this mon isn't really good and it's dangerous and illusory to think this mon will protect you against special setup. It's one of those mon that can momentarily prevent a sweep but are not directly capable of defeating the setup sweeper. In-game it's easy to prep against Clef with Knock, Scald and hazard to pressure it and finally sweep. Also like i said before, :clefable: generally can't win against 2 CM users (for example take Necro
    1622382167075.png
    1622382286605.png
    and
    1622382167075.png
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    Clef with both CM and Unaware Clef will run out of pp and one of them will be able to potentially sweep).

One thing i want to remind to show how much CM users are make strong thanks to the Camomons mecanics (despite i mentionned it in my previous post) is the great gain they have by changing typing.

Pokémon
Initial typing
Weaknesses
Resists & Immunity
:latios: :latias:
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Toxic
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:slowking-galar:
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:reuniclus: :necrozma: :cresselia:
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Toxic (except :reuniclus:)
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More than half of the mon i mentionned before as strong CM users are
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. This typing isn't great for a setup sweeper. Yeah, it provides a few weaknesses that is a good point but only 2 resists that leaves a lot of possibilities to break. Also,
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is bad offensively with a restricted coverage.

That's why, althought CM versions of these mon exist in their respective tier, they are not so good generally. Once again, Calm Mind isn't broken in itself. But the capacity that many mon can perfectly abuse from it makes the move unhealthy. Many abusers (more than just Lati@s, Clef and Slowking-galar), pairs very well with the camomons mecanic and is perfectly adapted to the meta with physical def oriented typing and the lack of good physical threat.

A lot of the following will be based on the presumption that you can build checklists-by-typing, as I find this to be the most effective way to not only deal with bulky setup but to deal with nearly every threat in Camomons, period.
I agree with that. This is generally how we deal with threat in Camomons. We have to count more the defensive (and offensive) synergy between our mon to check effectively most of the metagame. But for me, this isn't apply to CM precisely. You quoted
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as a good typing to check Latias but do you know that, with one CM in advance, a classical
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Tias can win against
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NP Hydreigon?

+4 0 SpA Latias Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 171-201 (52.6 - 61.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. +4 248 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 286-337 (78.7 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Against CM users you need an adapted typing to resist AND the power to break it otherwise, outside from your typing, you will lose. The first condition is really easy to fit but the second one is more problematic ngl.
Resists are almost nothing if you can't break. Resists + CM isn't really a solution too because, the winner will be the first to crit lol.


I really believe that ban Calm Mind is the easier way to balance the metagame and deal with many of unhealthy things.

Outside from a Calm Mind ban, here is my watchlist:

1. :hydreigon:

Quickban it as soon as possible. Already explain why Hydreigon is completely absurd.

2. :slowking-galar: :latios:

Slowking-galar is really annoying due to Scald and Sludge Bomb completed with good moves like Shadow Ball or Flamethrower. Really unpredictable and hard to pressure due to Regenerator. Substitute has proven to be an excellent slot preventing from being Toxic'ed or rk. Latios extra power makes it difficult to deal with. Despite an incredible movepools, it's generally vulnerable to Toxic but, like Volcarona, it can just bring a Sub set and fuck you. Unlike Slowking-galar, Latios is hard to rk due to its high speed. With Hydreigon, it limits so much Ground mon in the meta which can be good against many CM abusers.

Quickban them soon after hydreigon's ban.

3. :volcarona:

I'm surprised you didn't mention it because ngl this mon is dumb. More versatility than in OU. Psychic is used against Poison mon which try to Toxic it. Flying prevents Earthquake from hitting and also provides (with the Fire typing ofc) a really good physical defensive typing. Sub, Toxic and Safeguard can be used against Toxic, one of the best usual answer to Volcarona. With Flame Body even mon like
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AV TornaT ended up losing against Volca.

Supect or quickban it

4. :reuniclus: :tornadus-therian: :latias:

I don't think at the moment they're broken and deserve to be quickbanned or suspect tested. Reuniclus is quite similar to Clefable which is not broken imo. TornaT certainly has a broken aspect but, in particular in the optical of a CM ban, AV mon will be in better position and mon like Dragapult and Choice Scarfer can finally come back to help against fast NP users like TornaT, Alakazam or Naganadel. I already spoke about TornaT in my previous post and yeah this mon certainly has a broken and unhealthy aspect but there's also a healthy aspect with support and AV set. Finally Latias is similar to Latios due to its lack of immediate power, offensive counterplay is more allowed. Also some Latias sets are outclassed by Latios which has a strong DM

Keep your eyes on it.


Thanks in the hills for your answer. Several things to say:

1 - I apologize for being rude with you, this wasn't the goal though, believe me. I've written my post on the spot after being annoyed by your (lack) of reaction in the OMs Discord considering the efforts i made to write these posts. I probably misunderstand your words and reacted on the spot. Please forgive me for that, even though i think your tier management wasn't perfect, i nevertheless recognize your efforts for the tier.

2
Additionally, as an OM moderator, I have discussed this with the OM leaders and we are in agreement that discussion of this ban should not continue.
Uh, i don't understand that. Why invoke your position as a moderator? Why should the moderators have a superior power to prevent discussion about a possibility that seems legitimate to me (and not only to me)? Until proven otherwise, I'm calmly debating the subject of a possible CM ban (just with Chazm in fact because he's the only one to respond with valid arguments). I'm really curious to know why OMs moderators are concerned by the perspective of a CM ban in Camomons. Firstly because moderation and metagame management isn't the same thing and secondly because, appart from you, i highly doubt their capacity of judgment in a tier they don't know as well as we do.

I already quoted that an eventual CM ban isn't against Smogon's tiering policy so i really don't understand why i will not be able to discuss it?

3 - Thanks to present what you do in the council. It's impossible to see what the council do without a public message which relates discussions so it's always good to keep people regularly informed espcially in the context of OMPL where the tier is active.

ou said in your first post that you weren't saying "BAN THIS NOW" but make a post a few days later attacking our supposed lack of response?
Don't make me say what I didn't say :p The "BAN IT NOW" was obviously not an order but a joke.

Obviously I don't say "BAN IT NOW
4
If you have issues with me as tier leader, please direct them to me personally; I do not appreciate being called out in some sort of 'gotcha' post that twists my words after all of the energy I have put in to get this tier to where it is now. Thank you.
The first screen was just to justify my second post. For the last see point 1.

Thanks you for your answer ITH. I hope you will take part in this discussion to explain your opinion on Calm Mind and why you think ban it isn't a solution which deserves to be discussed despite all my arguments. I'm not a man closed to debate so, if your arguments seems legitimate to me, i can accept that we don't agree! We also can work on another solution even if, to me, ban CM (and Hydreigon) is the best way to improve the state of the metagame without banning many mon whose the only broken aspect comes from CM.

Thanks for your reading and i hope more people will participate to the discussion on how improve the state of the Camomons's metagame!
 
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in the hills

spreading confusion
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Sorry for the late response, I've been ill all week and haven't found the energy to write anything up after our conversation in the OM Discord. I'll keep it brief as I'm still not all the way back and we seemed to reach to an agreement or at least understanding on how Calm Mind should be handled moving forward.

Pretty much just to sum up the conversation from before, the issue with banning Calm Mind is that there has been no attempt at this moment to ban abusers so there's no viable precedent set that Calm Mind is inherently an issue. The argument that Calm Mind abusers outside of the currently popular ones (Latis, Slowking-Galar, Clefable, Slowking-Galar, Cresselia) are broken is entirely theorymon and isn't something I agree with, especially abusers without reliable recovery. There's no indication that these Pokemon are overwhelming due to Calm Mind, and I haven't been convinced that the current ones are broken solely because of Calm Mind rather than the special qualities they bring to the table (high stats, good abilities, good coverage, etc) in combination with Calm Mind. There's really not much else to it, it makes much more sense to look into specific abusers of the move before considering Calm Mind as an inherently broken part of the metagame.
TL;DR as it stands none of the Pokemon we've banned since DLC2 have been due to Calm Mind, so there's no precedent for banning the move before looking into specific abusers as that goes against the status quo of tiering policy.

Apologies if this isn't as long of a post as you were hoping, but I did want to make sure to cover my thoughts at least briefly before I completely forgot. I'll be back soon with some other stuff! Thanks!
 

in the hills

spreading confusion
is a Top Artistis a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Senior Staff Member Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Good day! As I mentioned in my last post, I'm back with an update.

It's been an amazing ride these past few years watching Camomons go from a tiny metagame without a ladder to where we are today, and we couldn't have gotten here without the support from the community. It's been great being at the head of this metagame for so long, but the time has come for me to step aside as its tier leader. This has been something I've been mulling over for a while now as I've slowly fallen out of love with this metagame throughout the generation and decided to stop putting it off. It's time for me to move on from this metagame and let some new faces take the helm.

I'm incredibly excited to announce that a loser and Chazm are now co-leading this metagame! Their dedication to this tier is admirable and I'm confident they'll continue to help Camomons grow.

Thanks again for everything! I'll still be around as much as before so don't worry!
 
So I've actually been spending a lot of time fooling around with this meta over the last month or two. My experience is admittedly limited, but the Camo mechanic keeps me coming back because of the creativity it allows, letting mons who may have been held back or unable to capitalize on their movepools as much as they could because of a less-than-ideal typing, and giving hidden gems, uncommon or unseen in other metagames, a chance to shine.

...or so I thought. Most of my experience has been battling against the same two or three battlers, but it seems pretty clear that by and large, if you're not using mons with 530 BST or higher (ie mythicals, legendaries and pseudo-legendaries), you're not really viable. I think it's really unfortunate that the presence of things like Hydreigon, Garchomp, Latios, Mew and Torn-T completely stifles other things that might have been able to rise to more prominence, just like in standard metas. Now, by no means am I in any position to dictate on what is/is not viable (as my ladder position illustrates) and I fully understand that you stand the best chance of winning by building a team of success-proven staples, but as a newcomer to the metagame I can't help but be disappointed when ideas that would only work in Camomons
Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
Ability: Iron Barbs
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Body Press
- Power Whip
- Gyro Ball
- Curse

Bulky Offense Trick Room Ferro. Didn't have a ton of success with it, but Curse helps all 3 of his attacks, and Gyro Ball smacks Flying and Poison types.

Marowak-Alola @ Thick Club
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Brave Nature
- Outrage
- Poltergeist
- Iron Head
- Bonemerang

Dragon/Ghost Marowak; Iron Head for Fairies and Bonemerang for Steels. Pair with Twave or webs support.

Hippowdon @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
-Body Press
-Stone Edge
-High Horsepower
-Slack Off
Giving him Rock typing lets him capitalize on the sand buff to his Sp. Def. Body Press runs off of his substantial Defense. HH is good coverage for Poison types or Steel/Ghost types.

Torkoal @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drought
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Eruption
- Solar Beam
- Earth Power
- Body Press

Fire/Grass works on a lot of different guys (Volcarona, Venusaur, Celesteela, etc) and this is an adaptation on that. It isn't outspeeding anything so try to bring it in on something it will force out so it can Erupt with full power. Modest is ok because Body Press doesn't run off of attack.

Copperajah @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Iron Head
- Heat Crash
- Earthquake

One of several forgotten Sheer Force users. Steel/Fairy is solid, and Heat Crash hits Steel types hard even without Heavy Metal. EQ is somewhat redundant, being only really useful on Water/Poison, Water/Steel and such, and it can be subbed for something like Power Whip if you want.

Dragalge @ Black Sludge
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 HP / 224 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
- Sludge Wave
- Thunderbolt
- Flip Turn
- Toxic Spikes

If you anticipate an incoming Ground-type, Flip Turn outta there. With its high Sp. Def and Adaptability boost it can take a resisted hit (you do have a couple good resistances) and force it to switch.

Rillaboom @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- High Horsepower
- Drum Beating
- Grassy Glide

The unheard-of non-Grass Rillaboom. This Bug/Ground variant uses its meaty 125 Attack to hit with hard U-turns. You still have Grassy Glide for coverage on Water. I opted for Drum Beating to slow down a switch-in, outspeed it on the U-turn, and bring in something.
don't get a "fair shake" when they get swamped by Hydreigon immediately.

Again, I want to underline that I love the concept of this mechanic and constantly find myself crafting new ideas for it. I love the fact that Dynamax is not legal here, which is probably the main thing that drove me away from things like Random Battles and Monotype. I almost wish there was a "Camo UU" that gave some of these other guys a piece of the spotlight and really dig deep into the metagame.
 
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Hello, everyone. This post will be a little different from my usual speech on Camomons.

The Camomons council plans to vote on: Hydreigon, Latias, Latios, Slowking-Galar, and Tornadus-Therian.

I suggested this change a few days ago in order to combat the highly centralized nature of Camomons games at the moment, and the immense restrictions that these five Pokemon place on teams. However, when discussing these Pokemon individually, I often got a lot of arguments that due to one Pokemon being checked by multiple of these top 5, the mon wasn't conclusively broken. However, it has become clear to me that in recent times, these five have all been culprits theirselves in one way or another.

Whilst I have already talked to death about Latias, Latios and Slowking-Galar in the metagame, I do believe that Hydreigon and Tornadus-Therian need a bit more explanation as to why I believe these Pokemon are broken.

:ss/hydreigon:

If you take one set of Hydreigon in isolation, for the most part, that set is easily dealt with. But for me, the combination of these sets and the Dragon setup variants (Dragon/Steel, Dragon/Ground) can make Hydreigon extremely frustrating to consistently deal with. These two sets alone already have exceedingly limited counterplay - most Steel/Flying types simply cannot hurt these two variants, and any other form of resist aside from some CM users / pivoting methods (i.e CM Latias, some variants of AV Torn) tend to get torn apart by Draco Meteor, Flash Cannon or Earth Power, or cannot do enough damage to the set that lies infront of them. Not only this, but offensively pressuring Hydreigon is a hard task when resists to Water/Poison wincons are needed on nearly every team. It often ends up being that Hydreigon will easily grab multiple KOs in a game because of this, resist or not.

:ss/tornadus-therian:

Prior to OMPL, I would have probably said this would have been a fine addition due to how good the defensive sets were for the meta, but as of the time that I'm writing this, Assault Vest variants have mostly fallen off, and recently, Nasty Plot Shuca Dark/Poison variants have started to become more potent. The main issue with this set is that it is immensely difficult to OHKO, often meaning that Tornadus-Therian will be able to grab a KO vs a Ground-type, switch out, and then manage to be at 50+% the next time it comes in, allowing for very easy setup. Its defensive utility, like with Hydreigon, also makes it very difficult to offensively punish, even outside of Shuca Berry sets, with sets like Dark/Flying and Poison/Flying getting some occasional usage.

This change will likely be an exceedingly drastic change to make, especially in the middle of OMPL, so I would like some input on these five to determine if they should go. I am in firm belief that all five of these Pokemon are broken no matter how you view it, and it is only down to Camomons' greater ability to check certain typings that have really allowed these Pokemon to go unbanned for so long, because they do have counters - it's just they're often incapable of being placed on teams when trying to deal with alll five of these threats.
 
The votes are in. Today, the face of Camomons will be changed forever.

a losrChazmThe Number ManFinal Verdict
HydreigonBanBanBanBan
LatiasBanBanBanBan
LatiosDo Not BanBanBanBan
Slowking-GalarDo Not BanBanBanBan
Tornadus-TherianDo Not BanBanDo Not BanDo Not Ban

Therefore, Hydreigon, Latias, Latios, and Slowking-Galar are now BANNED from Camomons.

Tagging Kris to implement.
 
Pleased as I am with these developments, it’s gotten my mind moving…3 of those banned were Levitate users, which is certainly a key feature in their exceptional viability thanks to, in many cases, removing one of their type weaknesses, namely on Steel, Poison, and Electric variants. It also gave immunity to all hazards except Rocks, lessening the need to carry Boots. Do we think any other Levitate users might “rise” to fill the void, such as Flygon, Rotom-A, or the Lake trio? Also does the reduced number of viable Levitate users, at least for the present, make hazard-stacking or Webs more viable, and will that, in turn, spur an increase in Boots usage at the expense of other items? Lots to think about.
 
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a loser

I'm a loser, baby, so why don't you kill me?
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
camo team.png
I wanted to share a team with you all that has done really well for me on the ladder (helped me the suspect voting reqs) and in tournaments (helped me get my first room star). This team actually survived the big ban unscathed and still performs well against current metagame threats. The main idea of the team is to stack Spikes, spread status, and gain momentum with pivot moves.

:clefable:
I have to credit in the hills for this idea as I stole it and made it specially defensive instead of physically defensive. Clefable, with some help from Tornadus-T, is my main check to special setup sweepers like Spectrier, Volcarona, Naganadel, and opposing Clefable. Toxic puts them on a timer while Moonblast and Calm Mind let me set up alongside them and turn into a late-game wincon thanks to Unaware ignoring their boosts.
:mew:
Physical defense pivot Mew is just so good. It isn't unbeatable and can be lured by coverage moves, but being able to recovery reliably, pivot in and out with boots and Flip Turn, stack Spikes, and spread burns all in one set is hard to beat. This checks Garchomp pretty reliably too, and is able to live +2 Outrage from full and burn it again if it is Lum Berry.
:Tornadus-Therian:
Taunt on this set is extremely clutch for this team and is needed to prevent opposing walls like Mew, Clefable, and Blissey from healing, defogging, setting hazards, and all that. It also prevents Trick Room teams from setting up pretty well too. Knock Off and Sludge Bomb are just nice utility STAB moves and U-turn is great for momentum. The spread looks weird with Speed EVs and a -Spe nature, but I find it nice to be a slower pivot while still outspeeding guys like Modest Porygon-Z and random Specs users like Toxtricity.
:Melmetal:
Bulky Melmetal has been a pleasant surprise. I borrowed this spread from Jrdn and it has put in nice work. DIB hits neutral targets really hard even without Atk investment and is great for taking on annoying mons like Poison/Fairy Cresselia. High Horsepower is used over EQ in case of opposing Rillaboom but this can be changed if you aren't scared of it. Body Press is nice coverage and hits pretty hard thanks to Melm's nice Defense. Protect is honestly really good here for scouting choiced breakers and even just stalling out a turn to get Leftovers recovery.
:Pheromosa:
I was originally worried Pheromosa's damage output would suffer using boots over LO or band, but it is still a very effective late-game cleaner thanks to its very nice Attack even without boosting items. Axel is scary at times but still pairs so well coverage wise with Close Combat. U-turn is great for scouting switch-ins and I've had more success with Phero as my hazard control than I'd have ever thought possible. But this is helped by Mew stacking Spikes, which generally prompts the opposing team to Defog and this eases the pressure on Pheromosa.
:Salamence:
Salamence is my backup physical wall that is particularly helpful against threats like Victini, most Rillaboom, and most Extreme Speed users. Dragon Tail is nice for phazing things out that can't immediately threaten it and Wish is very handy for healing up teammates in a pinch and for gaining momentum when you force something out.

Threats
:heracross::pheromosa::garchomp:

Each of these can be scary in different ways. Heracross can boost itself to scary levels with Guts Facade and has ways to hit Mew and Salamence very hard. Melmetal can at least deal with Normal/Ghost and Normal/Dark fairly well but has to watch out for Close Combat coverage. Pheromosa is manageable, especially if choice locked, but can punch holes nonetheless. Mixed and non-choiced versions can be more troublesome though, as Ice Beam shreds Salamence and coverage lures like Shock Wave can finish off Mew. Garchomp isn't too bad but certain variants like Water/Dragon with Lum Berry can be a pain to deal with if you don't get the burn. Opposing Steel-types like defensive Mew and setup sweepers like Necrozma and Magearna can be annoying for the team, but Melmetal is generally able to pressure the setup guys before they cause too much trouble.

Replays
Handling Setup Spam
Against Balanced Offense
Against Bulky Setup
Long Game Against Bulky Offense
Surviving Against Hyper Offense
 
I know it’s probably not realistic for any of a number of perfectly valid and understandable reasons, but I’d like to again raise the concept of a “Camomons UU”. As the meta currently stands, I feel that pretty much everything commonly seen is there for a reason, and not at the level of being suppressive or restrictive (perhaps with the exception of Spectrier and Naganadel). I had mentioned in past posts that, as with every meta game and playstyle, the top tier naturally give you the best chance to win but at the same time can be dull to play against. For a meta game so steeped in creativity it is still frustrating to be unable to get past the ever present Mew. Would anybody else be interested in trialing a small-scale mod (or at least theorymonning for one) with a banlist of, say, everything B+ and above in the viability rankings?
 

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