Resource BW Simple Questions, Simple Answers Thread

[Finchinator]

Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

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Also look into the RoA's BW resources as well!

RoA BW Resources and Guides

Guides & Resources

BW Smogon Dex
Smogon's database for all BW Pokemon analyses.

5th Gen RMT Archive
A collection of great and metagame-defining teams from BW.

Warstory Archive
A collection of high-quality BW battles, with insight from those battling.

Metagames

OU

BW OU Hub
Central Hub for all things BW as well as a thread to share and discuss teams and sets.

Introduction to Team Building
A guide meant to teach new players how to build in BW OU.

Eevee: An Introduction to Spreads
A guide for how to make the most out of your EV Spreads.

Guide to Weather
A closer look at Weather in BW OU.

Preview Analysis
A guide to better your understanding of Team Previews.

BW OU Viability Rankings
A look at how viable Pokemon are in BW OU.

BW OU Sample Teams
An archive for teams that are representative of the current metagame.

BW OU Speed Tiers
Important Speed numbers for BW OU.

BW OU Teambuilding Compendium
A list of which Pokemon fulfill various roles in BW OU.

Ubers

BW Ubers Resources
Includes viability rankings, sample teams, and relevant mechanics.

BW Ubers Sample Teams
An archive for teams that are representative of the current metagame.

BW Ubers Speed Tiers
Important Speed numbers in BW Ubers.

BW Ubers Threat List
An overview of Pokemon to watch out for in BW Ubers.

BW Ubers Teambuilding Compendium
A list of which Pokemon fulfill various roles in BW Ubers.

UU

BW UU Resources
Includes viability rankings, sample teams, and relevant mechanics.

BW UU Sample Teams
An archive for teams that are representative of the current metagame.

RU

BW RU Resources
Includes viability rankings, sample teams, and relevant mechanics.

BW RU Resource Hub
More detailed resources for the BW RU Metagame.

BW RU Viability Rankings
A look at how viable Pokemon are in BW RU.

BW RU Sample Teams
An archive for teams that are representative of the current metagame.

BW RU Speed Tiers
Important Speed numbers in BW RU.

BW RU Threat List
An overview of Pokemon to watch out for in BW RU.

BW RU Role Compendium
A list of which Pokemon fulfill various roles in BW RU.

NU

BW NU Resources
Includes important resources for BW NU.

BW NU Viability Rankings
A look at how viable Pokemon are in BW NU.

BW NU Sample Teams
An archive for teams that are representative of the current metagame.

BW NU Speed Tiers
Important Speed numbers in the BW NU metagame.

BW NU Threat List
An overview of Pokemon to watch out for in BW NU.

LC

BW LC Viability Rankings
A look at how viable Pokemon are in BW LC.

BW LC Sample Teams
An archive for teams that are representative of the current metagame.

BW LC Speed Tiers
Important Speed numbers in the BW LC metagame.

BW LC Threat List
An overview of Pokemon to watch out for in BW LC.

DOU

Doubles OU Viability Rankings
A look at how viable Pokemon are in BW DOU.

Doubles OU Sample Teams
An archive for teams that are representative of the current metagame.

VGC

VGC 2012 Speed Tiers
Important Speed numbers in VGC 2012.

Side Formats

Other Metagames

BW PU Resources
Includes a threat list, viability rankings, sample teams, and speed tiers.

BW AG Resources
Includes sample teams and information regarding the tier.

BW 1v1
Includes viability rankings, sample teams, speed tiers and more for BW 1v1.

[/CENTER]

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A major shout out to FNH for essentially making this OP and taking charge with recent BW developments. Anyway, you guys can ask away!

 

[Sagdiyev]

why isn’t keldeo banned.

How come Gengar isn’t seen as much as an offensive spinblocker on psyspikes? Is it because of its psychic weakness, Volcarona weakness or a mix of the both, while also making the bad Smurf matchup worse?

 

[Finchinator]

How come Gengar isn’t seen as much as an offensive spinblocker on psyspikes? Is it because of its psychic weakness, Volcarona weakness or a mix of the both, while also making the bad Smurf matchup worse?

The issue is that Gengar is a spinblocker that does not actually defeat either common Rapid Spin user. It is still fringe viable on the premise of being a Ghost type and having some good luring qualities for Psychic types -- landing a burn on Tyranitar and/or breaking Chople Berry can go a long way for sure. The issue is that it is a dead slot defensively besides against Breloom and SD Gliscor, which are both paired with Pursuit frequently, and it loses to both spinners it is supposed to block. It is also true that it makes some common weaknesses -- i.e: Scizor and Volcarona -- even worse, which makes these teams far more match-up prone.

 

[oldcvcv]

What do you think about Hydreigon on sand teams ? I feel like it's a bit underrated, i never watched a serious game in like spl or classic, with Hydrei.

 

[Finchinator]

What do you think about Hydreigon on sand teams ? I feel like it's a bit underrated, i never watched a serious game in like spl or classic, with Hydrei.

Specs Hydreigon is a good complimentary piece to open up for Latios or Alakazam, but it is very prediction reliant. The main niche and the sole selling point is the lack of Pursuit weakness. You can fit it, but a lot of teams are ok just tradding one fast, hard hitter with Tyranitar to open up for another at that point. The loss in speed causes limited entries, so you have to be cognizant of that when proceeding with Hydreigon. Non-specs sets are generally dated and produce diminishing returns outside of very specific match-ups, too.

 

[A Welcome Guest]

Why is Chansey considered better than Blissey according to some? I always thought of Blissey as the better one because it's less susceptible to Trick, since it doesn't need to hold Eviolite. I know they're both not very good mons but whatever.

 

[Finchinator]

Why is Chansey considered better than Blissey according to some? I always thought of Blissey as the better one because it's less susceptible to Trick, since it doesn't need to hold Eviolite. I know they're both not very good mons but whatever.

Chansey is better in generation 5 (and 6-7) despite Trick and the rising popularity of Knock Off in all honesty. Let's talk about it in BW. Blissey is so much less durable on the physically defensive end of the spectrum, leaving it particularly vulnerable to being trapped by Tyranitar and threatened immensely by Ground types, even if they lack Swords Dance. Chansey is able to hold its own comfortably, even stomaching Supperpower or Pursuit on the switch from Tyranitar comfortably. It is true that Trick from Latios or Knock from Ferrothorn can be a disturbance, but these things are avoidable and people can plan for that when using this Pokemon. Sand chip is also less of an issue as Chansey is solely used on Rain and Sun stall teams, which aim to minimize Sand's presence in any given game. Run some calcs comparing damage output on both -- you will see that Chansey's physical bulk goes a long way here. Of course, Blissey can be deemed viable with Mail or just Leftovers on a bulkier Sand team or even one of the Sun/Rain teams that fear Latios moreso, but this is a fringe strategy at best that has not seen much usage yet.

 

[asterat]

What is going on with potential tier tweaks? Volcarona suspect?

 

[Finchinator]

What is going on with potential tier tweaks? Volcarona suspect?

We're in the middle of a vote on King's Rock, but there is a delay due to some unforeseen circumstances (come back Caetano ;_;). This will likely wrap up in the near future, but I see us using the upcoming Smogon Classic to gauge further change unless there is a stronger push in the coming days. Then, we will evaluate the evolving metagame accordingly

 

[Smurf.]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-1364264557
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-1363924890

Is Volc actually broken or is its dominance just a function of lazy team building and/or wrong mentality? Rather than stressing about having a 100% counter to all its variations, should people focus on making momentum-holding teams that focus on keeping SR/spikes up? A smart Volc user will be forced to bring it in sooner rather than later and set up on the SR user as rocks go up, before its would-be checks are chipped/too compromised. An example of a good team in this respect is SR user / scarf tar / jellicent / [3x filler]. This structure is very good at not giving Starmie room to spin - which means unless Volc switches in as rocks go up, it is likely to come in at 50% later on.

 

[Finchinator]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-1364264557
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-1363924890

Is Volc actually broken or is its dominance just a function of lazy team building and/or wrong mentality? Rather than stressing about having a 100% counter to all its variations, should people focus on making momentum-holding teams that focus on keeping SR/spikes up? A smart Volc user will be forced to bring it in sooner rather than later and set up on the SR user as rocks go up, before its would-be checks are chipped/too compromised. An example of a good team in this respect is SR user / scarf tar / jellicent / [3x filler]. This structure is very good at not giving Starmie room to spin - which means unless Volc switches in as rocks go up, it is likely to come in at 50% later on.

I think this is a great question and the jury is still out as to the answer. I feel a lot of the complaints have been shortsighted and with some adaptation and open mindedness, the metagame will be better off against a lot of issues though, Volcarona very much included. I agree with your assessment of offensive pressure as well.

 

[BoomFantastic]

What's Smurf?

 

[Finchinator]

View attachment 360844
View attachment 360845

What's Smurf?

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/gliding-over-all.3576311/

 

[peng]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-1364264557
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-1363924890

Is Volc actually broken or is its dominance just a function of lazy team building and/or wrong mentality? Rather than stressing about having a 100% counter to all its variations, should people focus on making momentum-holding teams that focus on keeping SR/spikes up? A smart Volc user will be forced to bring it in sooner rather than later and set up on the SR user as rocks go up, before its would-be checks are chipped/too compromised. An example of a good team in this respect is SR user / scarf tar / jellicent / [3x filler]. This structure is very good at not giving Starmie room to spin - which means unless Volc switches in as rocks go up, it is likely to come in at 50% later on.

Meant to reply to this sooner but better late than never. This will just be a long rant about Volcarona and current meta thoughts that I've previously spoken about on the BW discord.

I was vocally anti-Volcarona for a while as I thought it adds a ton of bs match-up into a metagame where you already can't cover everything, but there are for sure situations where players just allow Volcarona to steamroll them. I think both of the replays listed are examples of teambuilding really badly vs Volcarona and also making the worst possible set of plays to autolose to it. Often, people cite games like this as being "helpless vs volc" which couldn't be further from the truth.

Specifically, I think Stealth Rock on the Grasses is basically unviable in BW right now, with the exception of Rain Ferrothorn. Slapping SR Celebi or SR Ferrothorn on a sand team is the quickest way to get fucked up by Volcarona in Gen 5 - I think this is something that the top players adapted to very quickly following the Volcarona uptick in SPL, what with Celebi usage tanking, but idk if there's actually been a post about it on the forums mentioning this.

The reason is obvious - using SR Celebi or Ferrothorn guarantees that you will have to face down a 100% Volcarona, every time. These are Stealth Rock users that Volcarona actively switches in on as they set-up, and then gets a free QD on. As a result, vs any competent player you will never actually hit Volcarona with SR. As far as I am concerned, with the exception of very specific structures, these 2 SR users are flat-out unviable on Sand in the current metagame, and you only have yourself to blame when you lose to Volcarona. These are not good reasons to ban Volc - the blame sits squarely with the person using ill-fitting SR Pokemon in a metagame where you know the moth is abundunt.

Look at both of the games that Smurf listed and note where Volcarona comes in. It looks like Volc hard swept the opponent, but only because they comitted 2 cardinal sins 1) using SR grass type on Sand and 2) actually clicking SR and letting Volc in. Deserved losses, zero evidence here that Volc is broken.

-----------------------------

My own personal opinion on Volcarona has mellowed in recent weeks/months as I've come to realise that it is possible to adapt your teams to it, but it involves being hyper-critical of teambuilding minutae and small interactions. For some, the restrictions imposed make the game boring. However, I've really enjoyed the challenge and the creative teambuilding it forces. I feel like I can now routinely build sand teams that have really really good Smurf MUs, although the actual species of Pokemon I use is probably less diverse than ever.

e.g. look at my "boring" roapl teams






important patterns for anti-smurf teambuilding are SR placement, keeping hazards up, and having 2 fast mons

Stealth Rock placement matters. 99% of Celebi sands are out - including both the McMeg-style Celebi+Magnezone and the Celebi+2Ground styles that we saw earlier in the year - as beautiful as these teams are, they just haemmorage momentum to weatherless offense and can never click SR. Same for sand Ferrothorn - SR on it is too big of a Volcarona invitation and I would only use it if I had ScarfChomp or something. Gliscor, Lando-T, Garchomp are the premier rockers as Volcarona can't set up on them. Everything else is a MU fish, which you don't really want when it comes to something as pivotal as SR. Not a rocker, but Facade-less Breloom feels rough in Volc meta too.

Keeping rocks up is important. Jellicent is the obvious way - I'm a big advocate of Eject Button Jellicent + Starmie killers as a way to keep momentum vs Smurf, but I've been using support Gengar recently and it does a decent job too. People shit on Gengar as it actually loses to most spinners, which is true. However, sacrificing Gengar to spinblock is not bad if you have good partners that force Starmie out afterwards. Gengar/EB Jellicent + ScarfTar keep rocks up vs Starmie super easily. Gengar isn't new meta or anything, but it is certainly a viable adaption on Psyspam which otherwise gives away easy spins.

Designing revenge killing plans is also crucial. Importantly, you can't try to check Garchomp, Breloom, and Volcarona with 1 revenge-killing slot as a combination of priority and Pursuit Scizor will fuck you up. This is one of the main reasons I'm kind of down on Scarf Latios right now, as you need to run it alongside a second fast mon to beat Garchomp otherwise the revenge Garchomp -> Pursuited by Scizor -> swept by lategame Volc line is too easy - unfortunately, Latios is the splashable fast mon, so it can be tough to find a second one to go alongside Scarf Latios. Personal rule, which I know a lot of other people also use albeit subconsciously, is have minimum 2 mons faster than Garchomp, ideally 1 of which can revenge kill +1 Volc. Latios (nonscarf) + Alakazam comes to the fore as the offensive core to fuck up Smurf as you can use Latios to revenge kill Garchomp, chip Scizor, and keep Sash Alakazam intact for Volc. Teams with slower scarfers (Lando-T, Rotom-W, Excadrill, Jirachi) can't afford to have any Volc set-up fodder, whatsoever, if you want a salvageable Smurf MU. Sand with Scarf Keldeo has the potential to be interesting but remains unproven for at least 5 years.

4 attack Alakazam probably needs Psyshock if it wants to deal meaningful damage to Volcarona, or just run TWave. Psychic / Focus / Ice / Gknot Alakazam is not a good Volcarona check.

Offensive mons that do OK vs Volc have huge value right now. Flame Charge Heatran, Scarf Salamence, Tornadus, Gyarados.

Might add to this with more thoughts as they come.

 

[mad dawg]

Could we please get an updated speed ties thread? The current one while usable is missing certain Pokemon and modern spreads and while I appreciated gorebyss + friends being on there when I feel like building filth I don't think its necessary. Cheers

 

[laserduck]

What's the best way to get involved with BW lower tiers? I'm a new player who is interested in trying BW UU or BW RU but there is no ladder for them on Showdown.

 

[Fakee]

What's the best way to get involved with BW lower tiers? I'm a new player who is interested in trying BW UU or BW RU but there is no ladder for them on Showdown.

i recommend you to read some analysis of the Pokémons that are at the top of the viability ranking and watch a few replays of the tier, also there is a discord server where you can ask for battles of those tiers, here are some threads that can help you learn a little more about these tiers: bw uu hub, bw ru resource hub, replays from bwpl, bwpl usages and the discord server
you can also check the UU and RU categories and look for some replays if those are not enough

 

[Wizard]

Please bring back DryPass. There's no reason to not preserve it bar tiering fanaticism.
And stop fiddling with old tiers while you're at it.

 

[FNH]

Please bring back DryPass. There's no reason to not preserve it bar tiering fanaticism.
And stop fiddling with old tiers while you're at it.

If you recall from the policy review thread, this "quick ban" only applies until SPL has concluded. Afterwords a vote will be conducted. Whether BP is nuked completely or a complex option is put in place will be determined then.

After a series of long discussions, the BW OU council has concluded that we will ban the move Baton Pass from BW OU. We will conduct a vote -- including options of Banning Baton Pass, banning the passing of stats, and reverting back to the pre-ban state of Baton Pass -- after the ongoing SPL as well.

 

[Wizard]

Free the dry BP. I miss celebi already

It's not dead BUT the baton pass ban could hurt its viability in the long run (something similar happened with Amoonguss after the sleep ban, now it's pretty much a sitting duck and no near as common as it was before) and considering we're talking about defensive glue mons in a tier with a crapload of threats then yes the ban should be revised to account for it

If you recall from the policy review thread, this "quick ban" only applies until SPL has concluded. Afterwords a vote will be conducted. Whether BP is nuked completely or a complex option is put in place will be determined then.

So the council can just randomly quick ban things for months, giving returning players heart attacks? Bro 5 people can't have that much power over a tier that has been played by thousands of players, lol.

 

[Finchinator]

So the council can just randomly quick ban things for months, giving returning players heart attacks? Bro 5 people can't have that much power over a tier that has been played by thousands of players, lol.

Sir this is a simple question, simple answer thread. You have no questions and you have no answers. PM me or the council as a whole if you have grievances and I will gladly make sure they are heard and addressed.

 

[galarian darmanitan]

Can someone explain the point of salac mamoswine on rain? NMI just seems a lot better to me. The amount of damage you need for it to actually sweep any non drag-mag team is way too high, esp without sand. And it's just piss weak.

Not even being able to kill latios after rocks is TRASHHHH
Doing 30% or less to skarm and rotom is TRASHHHH

 

[Gamer1234556]

Can someone explain the point of salac mamoswine on rain? NMI just seems a lot better to me. The amount of damage you need for it to actually sweep any non drag-mag team is way too high, esp without sand. And it's just piss weak.

Not even being able to kill latios after rocks is TRASHHHH
Doing 30% or less to skarm and rotom is TRASHHHH

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-xii-bw-discussion-thread.3675727/post-8795733

 

[galarian darmanitan]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-xii-bw-discussion-thread.3675727/post-8795733

He even admits its a CT lol

 

[Gamer1234556]

He even admits its a CT lol

Well, you were asking what the point of Salac Berry was, so there is your answer.