Gen 5 BW OU Viability Ranking Thread - RoA edition

[Finchinator]

Why Suicune and Snorlax are Unranked?

Sleep mechanics and fight spam no help but no ranking for this mons sounds crazy. Also, Snorlax is good checking Volcarona and rarely loses to it unlike Heatran (hp ground) and other mons that are destroyed with the correct coverage move.

On paper these historically OU viable pokemon may seem like they're viable, but in practice they're both pretty lackluster in my opinion.

Snorlax can act as a specially defensive pivot or tank that isn't as passive as a Chansey or Blissey, sure, but it's still unbearably slow and it's not breaking through much, either. Curse variants would probably need rest or they wouldn't be lasting too long given the myriad of strong special attackers in the tier - if it has rest, it's rendered passive and useless for a couple turns upon resting and pretty much every team has either some combination of hazards, taunt, phazing, and/or recovery OR attacks that can break through Snorlax given the couple turns it is asleep to freely attack. Offensively, a cb or attacker set wouldn't be ideal as it compromises a lot of survivability and it doesn't have the power to break through things like Hippo, Skarm, Jellicent, Reuniclus, etc.

Suicune would be very hard to fit onto a team because there are so many waters out there and cune's only niche in the meta would be as a fat cm restalk mon. With all of the utility checks, strong attackers, spikes, etc. going around, it would never be worthwhile to use on a team, in my opinion, so it shouldn't be ranked.

 

[BKC]

Suicune does have one niche, it's a solid Tailwind HO dude and does its job well enough there for me to feel it deserves some sort of rank

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

Suicune in D or C-. I actually used it in BW2 on a couple teams simply as a general defensive pivot and it wasn't too terrible then. Tailwind's there (though I like Prankster Tornadus better for that).

 

[dice]

snorlax's a fantastic way to compress a lati@s check, fire check, starmie check, and general special sponge on sun. band pursuit is hella cool to support venusaur and being a solid volcarona/heatran check is fantastic

suicune is great as a tailwind user on ho and can also effectively act as a switch into dragonite/garchomp/terrakion/land-t etc much better than other offensive waters like keldeo. cm/hydro/ice beam/tailwind @ leftovers is def the best set

 

[Jirachee]

hey, here for another round of changes.

Rotom-W A+ => A-

Rotom-W isn't a good Pokemon. It's kind of weird that it's ranked above Jellicent, 2 ranks above Gastrodon, and 4 (!) ranks above Slowking which are all better suited for the bulky Water role. All three of them check Keldeo, which is crucial for a Water resist. Rotom is one shotted by CM Fight Gem Keldeo, 2HKOed by Specs, and hell even Scarf and EBelt will do a lot of damage to it. The other 3 will beat most sets rather easily. Rotom also hardly "does anything" compared to them. Jellicent's Ghost typing allows to spinblock most if not every Spinner in the game, which is a huge perk in a metagame as Spikes centric as BW. Gastrodon can stop Volt Switch momentum grabbers like Rotom-W itself, and Slowking's large movepool gives it a good offensive presence. Rotom can spread burns with Will-O-Wisp, but so can Jellicent. In the end the only things Rotom-W has to differentiate itself from the others are a Ground immunity and STAB Volt Switch, but not beating Garchomp kinda puts a damper on the first one, and I don't think Volt Switch is enough to keep it so high. It has a few niche sets like Scarf and Specs but they're only good as a surprise.

Skarmory A => A+

I don't think I will surprise anyone when I say Spikes are BW's main focus atm. Skarmory and Ferrothorn are both excellent Spikes setter and I think the list needs to reflect that. Its Specially Defensive set can set up on so many things it's crazy. Not only that, but it still beats Ground types pretty easily, doing an even better job handling Fire Blast Garchomp. To me it's kind of a no brainer to move it to A+, I don't have much more to add.

Dragonite A+ => A

Dragonite is honestly not that good. With all the bulky Steels running around, Outrage sucks to be locked in. You don't wanna be turned into Spikes fodder. DD has a rough time doing anything more than trading since most teams carry a faster Scarfer with a Rock / Ice / Dragon move, and if they don't (ie ScarfTar teams) they will probably have the bulk required to handle it without a problem. CB is nice but again Outrage sucks for similar reasons, except you're also revenge killed by Garchomp or Starmie or Scarftar or whatever. Dragonite doesn't really need Rocks gone but it sure loves it, and it can be very hard / it's not always worth spinning, and it will be hard for it to keep up then. Mixed / SubDD / etc are good sets but very niche

Celebi A+ => A

Celebi's classic pivot set is very outdated. There's just so many pokes that will take advantage of it, and a lot of them are extremely dangerous. Skarm gets free Spikes, Hydreigon waltzes in as it pleases, Volca gets free set up, etc. and it doesn't even beat some of the things it's supposed to. It can't be relied on as a Keldeo check because if you happen to face EBelt HP Bug it just dies to it after little damage, and that set is common. Can't take advantage of that Ground resist either because the two most common (by far) will beat it very easily (Garchomp just SDs, Lando U-turns). Can't check Alakazam either because Signal Beam exists. It's also forced into its recovery all the time because of hazards + sand. To top it off it's Pursuit weak... NP is alright, does a lot of work vs certain teams but usually won't do much because it's just walled by common stuff like Skarm and easily revenged.

also pls swap Hydreigon and Kyurem-B! I think the logic of my previous post still stands. Hydrei really needs A+

 

[Ciele]

I think that Hydreigon is a bit too inconsistent to warrant being moved up to A+. It really struggles against most offense teams and offers very little general defensive utility/synergy. It's quite strong against balance/stall but even then its vulnerability to passive damage (Sand, LO recoil, all forms of status) means it has to rely quite heavily on prediction. I could see Kyurem-Black dropping to A since they're kinda similar in quality but that might be controversial.

Celebi should drop even further down to A- or even B+. Its defensive sets are mediocre at best in this gen, serving mostly just as a cleric or PSonger if the team absolutely requires one. It struggles against most offensive Waters, loses to offensive Grounds, and serves as set-up fodder for loads of other stuff. Its 4x weakness to U-Turn and its need to Recover after pretty much every attack it takes means it also gives a ton of momentum away. Its wonderful win % in Tour will be of interest to some. Nasty Plot sets (with or without BP) are admittedly decent but average speed, flawed coverage, and lack of room for Recover without being a complete support set means they will rarely make a big impact. At least not enough so to deserve being in A rank.

Agree with the changes proposed for Rotom-Wash and Skarmory (indifferent to Dragonite).

 

[Kingler]

Even against offense tho, Hydra can usually get at least a few hits in; while a lot of stuff on offense does outspeed it, it can hold its own against most Politoed, non-Scarf Ttars and even like non-Ice Beam Starmie. Its typing is also pretty decent vs stuff like Heatran. A correct prediction on a key turn can basically guarantee a kill which is a pretty good reward for the risk of prediction. Idk, Hydra isn't too great vs. offense but I don't really think it's useless in any given matchup as offense basically has to sac stuff/predict around it if it gets in on something that it can 1v1. Hydra in A/A+ seems nice either way!

SubDD Dragonite is a pretty cool set vs balances but it does kinda struggle when skarm can basically set up spikes on you forcing you out when behind a sub :( it's probably more well-suited to A than A+ because it's p slow and scarftar etc. really annoys it. Plus Ice coverage on a lot of things can screw it once multiscale is broken which makes it risky to bring it in on certain stuff.

 

[Lord Ninjax]

Seconding all Jirachee 's proposals.

Also remove sun mons and Stoutland

 

[Luckstard.]

Also remove sun mons and Stoutland

WCoP metagame is not the official one. Chlorophyll users and Stoutland are still legal. There is no reason to remove them.

 

[Magcargo]

Speaking of Sun mons, is there any chance of Venusaur moving up to A+ rank?

 

[ForgottenOnes]

imo Venusaur should stay in A rank. It is too dependant on sun + Chlorophyll to warrant A+ rank imo.

 

[ReshiRampage]

Suicune does have one niche, it's a solid Tailwind HO dude and does its job well enough there for me to feel it deserves some sort of rank

Definitely agree with this considering Cune also has the bulk to tank a hit if necessary if you lose momentum with an HO team and can be a threat itself if it runs Calm Mind. I've even used CM HP Fire on it to weaken Ferro which can really help a lot of teams. Not sure what rank it deserves but it definitely deserves to be ranked.

 

[Jirachee]

so uh

Excadrill should be a B rank mon. It's not very good by itself honestly. It has a hard time pulling off spins unless it sacrifices itself and it's way too slow in general. The offensive sets are outdone by both Garchomp and Landorus-T which are both top 5, making it kinda miserable, especially since they both beat it 1v1. Not even outspeeding Adamant Garchomp is terrible

Donphan should drop to D. Not only did it lose its main niche (spinning on Sun), but Excadrill itself outclasses it as a Ground spinner...

Ninetales should probably be C. Sun is relegated to gimmick status but it's not THAT bad, as Fire types in sun still hit extra hard and Volcarona is as dangerous as always.

Venusaur should be in D. It's actually a nice gimmick. Sunny Day gives rains a super hard time as well as some offenses. Weather inducers can't switch into its main STAB which is extra nice. Also provides a nice check to stuff like Keldeo. But probably outdone by Kingdra as a standalone weather poke in general. Its defensive sets are /ok/ but essentially just a stronger Amoonguss that gets worn down easily (so not that great)

Dugtrio could probably drop to B or B-. It's still very good on yolo ass Rain squads but it's not as dangerous as it was on Sun.

I'm not sure about Darmanitan and especially Victini. They are pretty unexplored outside of Sun but Victini is pretty dangerous and doesn't need weather support.

please unrank those fuckers: Sawsbuck / Lilligant / Victreebel / Exeggutor

 

[Magcargo]

please unrank those fuckers: Sawsbuck / Lilligant / Victreebel / Exeggutor

Stoutland and Sandslash should probably be unranked as well.

 

[Omfuga]

Why is raikou in D-rank? I think it has some pretty good sets-- particularly sub CM thunder on rain teams. It really gives trouble to opposing rain and can also run specs volt switch and serve as a pretty nice momentum-grabber. I don't think Raikou is really "outclassed" by Jolteon who has piss bulk and no set-up moves, on top of an even worse movepool than Raikou.

Raikou also has access to Aura Sphere. Although Raikou must use a rash nature to use Aura sphere, it's still worth noting as the coverage is great to hit Tyranitar/Ferrothorn/Magnezone/Kyurem/Excadrill. Aura sphere isn't really worth using most of the time, but it can be useful depending on your team structure, and I think it's worth noting.

Raikou had a pretty terrible match up vs sun, but now that sun is gone I think Raikou becomes slightly more viable. Dugtrio and Donphan being less common will also be good for Raikou. Excadrill can be problematic for variants of Raikou without Aura Sphere, but I predict Excadrill to be far less common than Land-t and Garchomp, which get nailed by hp ice.

Overall Raikou clearly isn't a perfect mon... However, it can give certain teams a lot of trouble, and has decent utility over Jolteon as a specs volt switch user.

 

[Lavern]

I disagree with Ninetales being in C-Rank solely for the reason that Abomasnow is B-. SunBalance is still better than hail, so Ninetales should be B- as well. I think Ninetales should be a rank higher than Abomasnow, but B is a bit too high for Ninetales and I don't really think that Abomasnow fits in C-Rank.

 

[BKC]

the difference is abomasnow is a perfectly good pokemon on its own whereas ninetales is gutter trash

 

[Smurf.]

Sawsbuck > Jolteon... come on. Jolteon has an awesome niche on rain squads, because their biggest issue is losing momentum. A moveset of Thunder / Volt Switch / hp [ice] or [grass] / signal beam @ expert belt is great, as it lets you lure in problematic mons for rain like celebi and gastrodon, bluff a choice set, and nuke them with the appropriate coverage move. Volt switch lets you easily pick up momentum on swtich ins like tyranitar, allowing you to pivot out to politoed and get rain up again. With some hazards this very quickly wittles sand balance teams and gives you an edge in the weather war. Also being faster than scarf tar is cool. This set works really well with specs tornadus and bulk up breloom, they have great offensive synergy to trouble cookie cutter sand builds. Jolteon allows you to really penalise your opponent for switching their amoongus [insert grass mon here] into jolteon, because it gives tornadus a free hurricane. Bulk up Loom gets free set up on ferrothorn and many other switch ins to jolteon.

 

[Martin]

Excadrill should be a B rank mon. It's not very good by itself honestly. It has a hard time pulling off spins unless it sacrifices itself and it's way too slow in general. The offensive sets are outdone by both Garchomp and Landorus-T which are both top 5, making it kinda miserable, especially since they both beat it 1v1. Not even outspeeding Adamant Garchomp is terrible

I disagree with Exca being as low as this (imo, it should be a sub-rank higher than B); sandstorm is really good even without it, and the ability to just flat out shred it (good on sun balance, for example) is hugely important for a large number of teams, while it also pairs well with various pursuit-weak 'mons due to its ability to flat out take advantage of the best pursuit trapper in the tier (t-tar), discouraging it from coming in. Also, something that is relatively unexplored and effetive atm is bulky driller. I've been testing out a variant of the ubers bulky set and I've had good success with it.

Excadrill @ Leftovers / Air Balloon
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs/Nature: See description for some viable spreads
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance / Iron Head
- Substitute / Stealth Rock

Mold Breaker allows it to not get walled by levitators (namely Rotom-W switch-ins). Sub is great as it allows it to take advantage of switches it forces v.s. stuff like Tran, Magnezone and Rotom-W and it is capable of blanket checking a large number of special attackers due to its decent natural special bulk (for example, it beats Forretress in the special bulk department); it fits well onto bulky offense and balance, and it is a very capable 'mon when facing powerful special hits. I chose adamant over careful despite adamant allowing a higher attack stat as it improves Excadrill's overall bulk. There are lots of different things you can do with the EVs though, making it customisable to the team's needs: running a spread of 172 hp/12 atk/252 SpD/72 spe with a jolly nature outpaces jolly scizor and lets Excadrill make 101 HP substitutes; a spread of 216 hp/12 atk/252 SpD/28 spe with a careful nature outruns uninvested lando-t, hits a leftovers number and increases its ability to take hits at the cost of power and speed; 120 hp / 8 atk / 252 SpD / 128 spe with an adamant nature takes the first spread and exchanges a little bulk and speed and the ability to make 101 HP subs (EV'd to live specs surf from latios after rocks and outpace jolly t-tar) in exchange for a little power.

The thing about this set is that it can take advantage of a reasonable pool of pokemon due to its ability to take special hits decently well, combat Rotom-W and act as a shaky check to Lati@s and Hydreigon, and it can blanket check any special attackers lacking an SE hit reasonably well.

Also, I wouldn't discount its more offensively-inclined sets. While it may not have the momentum-grabbing ability and power of Landorus-T, and it may not have the god-tier typing or contact-punishment of Garchomp, but its ability to punish sandstorm, spin v.s. non-Focus Miss Gengar (unless under sandstorm or holding choice scarf, in which case it beats Focus Miss variants 1v1 and has free spinning power for the rest of the game) and (if Mold Breaker) beat Rotom-W 1v1 gives it good utility and niches over Lando and Chomper. Also, its neutrality to ice allows it to check BoltBeam users - most notably HP Ice Magnezone - better due to the increased number of switch-in opportunities v.s. such pokemon.

Also, I think you are underselling Exca's ability to spin. Sure, it isn't the best spinner around by a long-shot. However, it does force a large number of switches and, due to the meta not demanding Rock Slide like ORAS' meta does, it has space to run both SD and spin; this allows it to be more threatening in the spinner role (the ability to not only take advantage of Tyranitar, but to also set up for a sweep and to remove hazards for things like QD Volc is hugely valuable) and it allows it to fit onto a far greater number of teams to support 'mons such as pursuit-weaks, fire-types (and by extention sun 'mons) and other rock-weaks like Volcarona, Kyurem/KyuB, Tornadus and DNite.

I respect that it has flaws (pretty cookie-cutter when it comes down to its coverage options, not as consistent as chomper/lando, struggles to break through certain 'mons, has to choose between losing to rotom-w, gengar or fastmons), but it is reasonably versatile when it comes down to spreads it can run and the roles it can fill on a team.

I think that B+ is a better representation of Excadrill's qualitites in the metagame than B-, as it is definitely the best weather-punisher in the meta atm due to its great typing and good utility on a variety of teams. However, Mold Breaker sets are also perfectly viable for their ability to beat things which it and its ground brethren otherwise loses to, such as Rotom-W, and it does have a fair share of flaws which I feel mean it shouldn't be in the As.

 

[Jirachee]

I disagree with Exca being as low as this (imo, it should be a sub-rank higher than B); sandstorm is really good even without it, and the ability to just flat out shred it (good on sun balance, for example) is hugely important for a large number of teams, while it also pairs well with various pursuit-weak 'mons due to its ability to flat out take advantage of the best pursuit trapper in the tier (t-tar), discouraging it from coming in.

Excadrill doesn't countersweep common sand builds because a large portion of the balance ones carry Skarmory which just stops it. Landorus-T is another common Sand poke that gives Excadrill quite a lot of trouble. So how exactly are you shredding it? Not to mention that just throwing Excadrill is not that great of an idea considering in weatherless or Rain matchups it'll be quite useless.

Mold Breaker allows it to not get walled by levitators (namely Rotom-W switch-ins). Sub is great as it allows it to take advantage of switches it forces v.s. stuff like Tran, Magnezone and Rotom-W and it is capable of blanket checking a large number of special attackers due to its decent natural special bulk (for example, it beats Forretress in the special bulk department); it fits well onto bulky offense and balance, and it is a very capable 'mon when facing powerful special hits. I chose adamant over careful despite adamant allowing a higher attack stat as it improves Excadrill's overall bulk. There are lots of different things you can do with the EVs though, making it customisable to the team's needs: running a spread of 172 hp/12 atk/252 SpD/72 spe with a jolly nature outpaces jolly scizor and lets Excadrill make 101 HP substitutes; a spread of 216 hp/12 atk/252 SpD/28 spe with a careful nature outruns uninvested lando-t, hits a leftovers number and increases its ability to take hits at the cost of power and speed; 120 hp / 8 atk / 252 SpD / 128 spe with an adamant nature takes the first spread and exchanges a little bulk and speed and the ability to make 101 HP subs (EV'd to live specs surf from latios after rocks and outpace jolly t-tar) in exchange for a little power.

The thing about this set is that it can take advantage of a reasonable pool of pokemon due to its ability to take special hits decently well, combat Rotom-W and act as a shaky check to Lati@s and Hydreigon, and it can blanket check any special attackers lacking an SE hit reasonably well.

That set is very flawed for a few reasons

a) Excadrill loses to common hazard pokes. What are the 2 most common Stealth Rockers? Garchomp and Landorus-T. The most common Spikers? Skarmory and Ferrothorn. Aside from Ferrothorn, bulky Excadrill is a direct invitation for them to switch in and get their hazards up again. Not to mention that Excadrill is vulnerable to Spikes and isn't exactly the bulkiest poke in the game and will be worn down quickly. How are you stopping sand balance from getting their Spikes up? You can't spin on Jellicent and Skarmory gets free Spikes when you switch in. You're not supporting something like a Volcarona easily either since as long as their SRer is alive you can't prevent it from setting up again, and Excadrill is terrible in late game situations because it's so damn slow and weak to everything.

b) What special attackers are you checking actually? I can't think of one bar double dance Thundurus-T. You keep mentioning Rotom-W but you sure as fuck aren't switching into Hydro Pump or Will-O-Wisp. Gengar without Focus Blast doesn't exist. It's such a shaky Latios check that I wouldn't even mention it, and even if you switch into Draco Meteor you lose about 50% of your health to do what exactly? Spin as they go to Lando and get their rocks up again?

Also, I wouldn't discount its more offensively-inclined sets. While it may not have the momentum-grabbing ability and power of Landorus-T, and it may not have the god-tier typing or contact-punishment of Garchomp, but its ability to punish sandstorm, spin v.s. non-Focus Miss Gengar (unless under sandstorm or holding choice scarf, in which case it beats Focus Miss variants 1v1 and has free spinning power for the rest of the game) and (if Mold Breaker) beat Rotom-W 1v1 gives it good utility and niches over Lando and Chomper. Also, its neutrality to ice allows it to check BoltBeam users - most notably HP Ice Magnezone - better due to the increased number of switch-in opportunities v.s. such pokemon.

Beating Rotom-W hardly is a niche. Garchomp does that too. And Landorus-T only needs it weakened to kill it with +2 Stone Edge (it actually has a chance to kill with SR.) I already mentioned that Excadrill doesn't countersweep Sand earlier in my post. And while I'm sure no one actually struggles with HP Ice Magnezone, I'd take Yache Garchomp as my Thundurus-T check 1 million times because Excadrill, not only because it's faster, but it also isn't weak to Focus Blast.

Also, I think you are underselling Exca's ability to spin. Sure, it isn't the best spinner around by a long-shot. However, it does force a large number of switches and, due to the meta not demanding Rock Slide like ORAS' meta does, it has space to run both SD and spin; this allows it to be more threatening in the spinner role (the ability to not only take advantage of Tyranitar, but to also set up for a sweep and to remove hazards for things like QD Volc is hugely valuable) and it allows it to fit onto a far greater number of teams to support 'mons such as pursuit-weaks, fire-types (and by extention sun 'mons) and other rock-weaks like Volcarona, Kyurem/KyuB, Tornadus and DNite.

If your goal was to support a Volcarona sweep, why would you not use Starmie as your spinner? Not only is it much more threatening offensively, but it actually beats most of the Stealth Rock users in the metagame 1v1 and is incredibly fast, allowing it to be relevant in every match-up. Excadrill isn't consistent enough to be a viable spin support for Volcarona, because if you face an offense team you can be damn sure you won't spin. And that makes you lose games.

 

[Disaster Area]

why is Hydergion lower-ranked than Kyurem-Black?

 

[ReshiRampage]

why is Hydergion lower-ranked than Kyurem-Black?

I can see your point considering how good Hydreigon is right now with all these Bulky Sand teams running around considering the way to beat Hydrei is offensive pressure as it doesn't have any real counters. I think it's a real candidate for A+ due to these reasons because it's certainly as good as Kyu-B if not even better. Kyurem-B has better attacking stats and also better defensive ones allowing it to tank Water-moves not called Scald better than Hydrei but if you're looking for a wallbreaker than Hydrei is the better choice due to its insane coverage

tl;dr Hydreigon for A+

 

[Luckstard.]

I think it's a real candidate for A+ due to these reasons because it's certainly as good as Kyu-B if not even better. Kyurem-B has better attacking stats and also better defensive ones allowing it to tank Water-moves not called Scald better than Hydrei but if you're looking for a wallbreaker than Hydrei is the better choice due to its insane coverage

Hydrei can take Scald as well and is even not annoyed by burn most of the time (well it is because of the -12%, but it does not get a power drop on some moves as Kyurem does (only true if it does not have superpower tho).

The defensive types of Kyurem-B is bad, it does not resist to fire when Hydrei does (well at least it's not weak to Ice attacks), and if you want to make a comparison between Kyurem and Hydreigon, you should take thses sets into account :

(M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk (if no Superpower)
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast / Focus Blast / Superpower
- Roost

@ Life Orb
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 16 Atk / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Mild Nature
- Ice Beam
- Fusion Bolt
- Earth Power
- Roost

They are similar. Main differences are :

Hydreigon not having a real counter, Kyurem Black is stopped by sDef Jirachi (unless drops from Earth Power).
Hydreigon is immune to Spikes and is neutral to SR when Kyurem-B takes damages from Spikes and lost 25% on SR.
Hydreigon can easily switch on Water-type moves (mainly Scald) since he does not mind a burn (unless Superpower), Kyurem-Black would loose power with Fusion Bolt.
Hydreigon can prevent CM Reuniclus to set up.
Hydreigon is faster than Kyurem-B.
Kyurem-B has a batter bulk (able to take a Secret Sword from Scarf Keldeo at full and OHKO back with Fusion Bolt).
Kyurem-B is a better switch in to Bulky Grounds like Hippowdon.
Kyurem-B does not suffer 4MSS to hit everything it wants to hit (well, it could happen if you opt for Focus Blast > Earth Power to have an easier time with Ferrothorn)

For all these reasons Hydreigon is better than Kyurem-B when it's about to be a mixed attacker.

But Kyurem-B does not stick to mixed attacker, it's the most powerful Outrage on earth, banded Kyurem-B is a beast, it OHKOs a lot of stuff (Skarm with Fusion Bolt being the most impressive) and can be a good Scarf (being faster than +1 Dnite / Gyara and threatening them is cool).

So I'd say Hydreigon and Kyurem-B should be at the same level.

 

[Typhlito]

Dont forget to take into account that hydreigon has access to taunt which makes it a great stall breaker. Also, hydreigon actually does make it a good bulky ground switch in with its immunity to eq and a way to stop toxic.

 

[Kingler]

Actually a burn fucks Hydreigon over really hard and is often the difference between winning or losing if you're really depending on it; it's absolutely huge and a 22.5% loss whenever you attack (not to mention sand and possibly the opp's attacks) really sucks. Also losing superpower damage means that you can't break through its targets very well like tran etc. Hydreigon is absolutely incredible though and I would defos support a rise to A+.