BW OU Viability Ranking, mk. 3

[Caetano93]

Alrighty, I see your point. I have a few replays with this pokemon, but I don't think I'm of the caliber for them to be "noteworthy." I encourage anyone to try it in the meta since I think it has potential, but until then my boy will sit in unranked.

If you have tour usage wins or high ladder games with it then I think the replays are valid especialy for C rank mons.
You don't need to be a BW expert to nominate just need to be consistent with your theory and have replays to prove your points.

 

[Deleted User [433215]]

Kyurem B- --> mid-high B

I'm nomming Kyurem up from where it is because I think B- underrates its threat level and effectiveness in the metagame very much. One reason I think it's so good is this metagame's tendency for lacking too many great Ice resists. Another is I think the Pokemon above it (Slowking, Chansey, Salamence, etc) all have less of a good niche in the current metagame compared to Kyurem and either has more severe issues than it and don't provide as much in return, are very specific in what structures it fits on, etc.

Matchup against sand: Most of these teams rely on Rotom-W as their Ice resist, and it gets used as a Substitute opportunity due to its inability to hit it for good damage. And in rain, Kyurem can PP stall it thanks to Hydro breaking the Sub in one shot. Meanwhile, in sand, Rotom isn't recovering and needs to Pump + Volt to break the Substitute, thus having to take an Ice Beam, which is permanent damage if rain isn't up as it comes in. Also, the main Steel-type on these types of teams atm is Ferrothorn, which loses to Substitute Kyurem (the best one) if lacking Gyro Ball. Other common sand staples, namely Gliscor, Amoonguss, etc are also destroyed by Kyurem. Excadrill is a pretty good check who can take at least one hit and heal up as Kyurem is forced out if not behind a Substitute. However, Excadrill can be worn down and crippled out games. Plus, offensive variants can't take Earth Power or Ice Beam well enough to consistently switch in or anything. Meanwhile, Kyurem can even offensively pressure Latios while using its choice lock into Surf as momentum, which can be dangerous for the common types of Latios sands atm. Breloom based sands, such as the one Finchinator used vs Soulwind in SPL, are also in major danger against Kyurem. While Latios, Choice Scarf Landorus-T, and Keldeo can offensively check Kyurem, they can't easily switch in, even Keldeo doesn't like taking chip as it likes staying somewhat healthy to check things like Gliscor and it has a propensity to get knocked into Earth Power range due to its lack of recovery. Landorus-T has also been running much more defensive Leftovers variants, making Kyurem have less to fear from it. Tyranitar, while it can't KO Kyurem back if Kyurem is in high health, Kyurem doesn't do too much damage. However, Tyranitar is prone to being worn down, mainly by Stealth Rock, so this issue is pretty minimal. It also needs to watch for Knock Off or Toxic from Ferrothorn and Gliscor.

Matchup against rain: While rain has more checks, namely Latios, Keldeo, and other Ice resists, Kyurem's matchup against them is quite good as well. There's the aforementioned Rotom interaction, but Kyurem absolutely destroys Tentacruel and Politoed and uses them to get up a Substitute, especially if it lacks Sludge Bomb. Ferrothorn is abused in the same way on rain as on sand. Jirachi is a tough matchup for Kyurem but Kyurem forces it to use Wishes and can even force it out when behind a Sub by spamming Earth Power and trying for defense drops. Thundurus-T can win against a worn down Kyurem if running Focus Blast, but BoltBeam only variants lose to Kyurem, especially if Thundurus isn't behind a Substitute to fish a paralysis before switching. Keldeo is, again, a tough matchup but due to lack of Leftovers, it can be potentially worn down, and Kyurem can take a non-Secret Sword hit from choiced Keldeo (mainly Scarf) if hazards are gone. Tornadus is a harder one to beat, but fitting Tornadus checks isn't the hardest thing to do.

Some other notes: Even if Ferrothorn is Gyro Ball, Kyurem can stall throughout the game due to Pressure. It's also in part why it's so good against what it is with Sub, namely Rotom. Jellicent sands are in trouble due to Jellicent not being able to break 101 HP Substitutes with Night Shade while not healing in sand and Kyurem being able to fish SpDef drops or even freezes (if it lacks Scald) on it.

The Set:
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 52 HP / 220 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Roost

This gets 101 HP Substitutes and outspeeds Jolly Excadrill, Dragonite, Landorus-T, and most common Gyarados. However, Modest has even more power to pressure these teams and only misses out on outspeeding the Jolly variants of the previously mentioned Pokemon and can still outspeed all Mamoswine variants. This set is to be used on rain, as recovering with Leftovers is crucial and rain provides necessary like spinning. 3 Attacks Roost is another set I've been experimenting with, but I've found it less effective.

If anyone has any questions or would like to discuss this nom more, feel free to ask me.

 

[LuckOverSkill]

I agree with zf: Moltres deserves to be ranked, it's definitely a better pokemon than Kingdra, or even Tangrowth. I'd say B- fits it nicely.

I've been spamming Forretress on the ladder, and I've been positively impressed by it. I've also used in CPL, and I must say my opinion on it changed. I'd argue for it to rise at the top of B-, or even go up to B. Just remember to run EQ and HP Ice on it. Volt Switch is not that useful, I've only ever wished I had it when I needed to pivot around Reuniclus, but overall I could live without it.

Gyarados could probably drop to B, or even B-. Everything works against it, there are so many conditions you need to satisfy to get it to work, while also needing heavy support. It's a shame because in theory it's amazing, until you try it and understand that it's not.

 

[Hematemesis]

If you have tour usage wins or high ladder games with it then I think the replays are valid especialy for C rank mons.
You don't need to be a BW expert to nominate just need to be consistent with your theory and have replays to prove your points.

I’ve used it in three of my wins in BW cup, and although I did hax my opponent in a few of the games, Registeel kills the Mag on Dragmag in at least one of them (don’t remember the other two iirc). I can post them if you think it’s valid!

 

[Caetano93]

Kyurem B- --> mid-high B

I'm nomming Kyurem up from where it is because I think B- underrates its threat level and effectiveness in the metagame very much. One reason I think it's so good is this metagame's tendency for lacking too many great Ice resists. Another is I think the Pokemon above it (Slowking, Chansey, Salamence, etc) all have less of a good niche in the current metagame compared to Kyurem and either has more severe issues than it and don't provide as much in return, are very specific in what structures it fits on, etc.

I have tested this mons for years but never have any satisfactory result with it. Ok that he can defeat alone some very especific team structures but that can be said for all B- mons. Salamence defeat all standart sands with Lando-t / Excadrill as his scarfers, Chansey destroy psy spams, Slowking fill holes in HO shenanigans...

Some other notes: Even if Ferrothorn is Gyro Ball, Kyurem can stall throughout the game due to Pressure. It's also in part why it's so good against what it is with Sub, namely Rotom. Jellicent sands are in trouble due to Jellicent not being able to break 101 HP Substitutes with Night Shade while not healing in sand and Kyurem being able to fish SpDef drops or even freezes (if it lacks Scald) on it.

The Set:
Kyurem @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 52 HP / 220 SpA / 236 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Substitute
- Roost

This gets 101 HP Substitutes and outspeeds Jolly Excadrill, Dragonite, Landorus-T, and most common Gyarados. However, Modest has even more power to pressure these teams and only misses out on outspeeding the Jolly variants of the previously mentioned Pokemon and can still outspeed all Mamoswine variants. This set is to be used on rain, as recovering with Leftovers is crucial and rain provides necessary like spinning. 3 Attacks Roost is another set I've been experimenting with, but I've found it less effective.

If anyone has any questions or would like to discuss this nom more, feel free to ask me.

Pressure stall is the only reason to use Kyurem (a specs set is powerfull but better used by a lot of diferent mons because of his vulnerability to hazards). The viable set is Timid 56 HP / 200 SpA / 252 Spe (56 HP makes it have 405 total and can enter 5 times in SR, speed is because we want it to be faster than Landorus, Excadrill and almost all Tentacruels, rest in spa).
The problem with Kyurem is that normally all teams have ways to force him to drop the stall. Examples are Encore Politoad and Alakazam, spd Jirachi, CM users like Reuniclus, Trick users... the list goes on. Also, another thing to keep in note is that for him work you NEED to have absolutely control over hazard wars as it is destroyes by Spikes, SR and T Spikes and this is bigest issue for all teams that try to fit the tao dragon in it. The black version don't have this problem because it is used normally as a suicide wall breaker with it obscene Outrage damages.

I don't suport the rise as i see Toxicroak, Chansey and Salamence much more powerfull and usefull mons. In my eyes even Hippo and Xatu are better than Kyurem. To be fair the only mons that Kyurem is better in B- atm are Tangrowth and Bronzong.

 

[Caetano93]

Let's start the big guns:

Riolu Unranked --> C:

Ok, i know what a lot of players are thinking "wtf this little s*** does?" Well, to anyone that follow my replays and small tours have already see me with my Riolu Squad team. And it works (most of the times).
Prankster Copycat have a LOT of utility but his foremost use is to have priority Roar. This win games alone if well played. The set:

Riolu @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roar
- Copycat
- Circle Throw
- Final Gambit

The idea is to bring him versus something that can't ohlo it and start having fun. Jolly makes you faster than Scizor and Breloom so they can't criple you with theyr prioritys. Leftovers is to nulify sand damage. Suport from Screens / Memento is apreciated.
Final Gambit is used when you don't need Riolu anymore and want to preserve momentum.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-489218 showing Copycat and Final Gambit Utility.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-925739958 Riolu put Garchomp in Terrakion CC range.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-913262484 Riolu sweep x spinless team (old replay but still have it point show).

It's NOT a mon that work everytime, need a lot of team support but have a nice niche, exactly like all other C rank mons. That's the reason i want to see it ranked too.

 

[Icemann]

I agree with zf: Moltres deserves to be ranked, it's definitely a better pokemon than Kingdra, or even Tangrowth. I'd say B- fits it nicely.

I've been spamming Forretress on the ladder, and I've been positively impressed by it. I've also used in CPL, and I must say my opinion on it changed. I'd argue for it to rise at the top of B-, or even go up to B. Just remember to run EQ and HP Ice on it. Volt Switch is not that useful, I've only ever wished I had it when I needed to pivot around Reuniclus, but overall I could live without it.

Gyarados could probably drop to B, or even B-. Everything works against it, there are so many conditions you need to satisfy to get it to work, while also needing heavy support. It's a shame because in theory it's amazing, until you try it and understand that it's not.

I echo pretty much all of this especially forre and moltres.

Not much for me to say on moltres that already has been said, and I think its clear it should be ranked around the B-ish area

I think Forre is pretty slept on and is actually pretty good despite the many good spinners it competes with. I really like forre with some special attack investment being able to deal with most dragonites depending on your set. It can also handle scarf chomp nicely among others. Earthquake is especially nice for terrakion if you need an emergency check for it on your team. Toxic spikes has potential but I don't see it super often. I also think volt switch is ok, but earthquake/hp ice are overall better options. TBH ,in my heart i think its just below Milotic, and above Cresselia, but that may be stretching it so B- is good.

My own Nom:

I also am going to say again that I think Weavile should be ranked, right above Kingdra in C. Its cool for HO rainsquads so lati doesnt F your mons. Saw a cool team by zf I think, with sub, protect, scald, secret sword keld, and spdef breloom. The team had no real lati switch in, and you just use weav to take it out and you wreck stuff with your two fighting mons. It also pairs well with those two mons especially because they often cannot touch jellicent what so ever, so it can help deal with that. With banded Weavile (which is a good set IMO) you can ohko jellicent with nightslash and rocks (unless they are like max hp max def bold, which in all fairness could be used) if they think they are slick and can stay in. Priority ice shard is of course great as well, and enjoys having dragonites multiscale broken by rocks so it can ohko. All in all its a niche mon, but I think it should be placed.

 

[Bughouse]

Let's start the big guns:

Riolu Unranked --> C:

Ok, i know what a lot of players are thinking "wtf this little s*** does?" Well, to anyone that follow my replays and small tours have already see me with my Riolu Squad team. And it works (most of the times).
Prankster Copycat have a LOT of utility but his foremost use is to have priority Roar. This win games alone if well played. The set:

Riolu @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roar
- Copycat
- Circle Throw
- Final Gambit

The idea is to bring him versus something that can't ohlo it and start having fun. Jolly makes you faster than Scizor and Breloom so they can't criple you with theyr prioritys. Leftovers is to nulify sand damage. Suport from Screens / Memento is apreciated.
Final Gambit is used when you don't need Riolu anymore and want to preserve momentum.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-489218 showing Copycat and Final Gambit Utility.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-925739958 Riolu put Garchomp in Terrakion CC range.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-913262484 Riolu sweep x spinless team (old replay but still have it point show).

It's NOT a mon that work everytime, need a lot of team support but have a nice niche, exactly like all other C rank mons. That's the reason i want to see it ranked too.

fwiw your last replay is a game where you tried to start the riolu roar chain against a LO garchomp that had already revealed dragon tail yet they didn't click it again... you were not in a position to start rioluing there and only benefited from your opponent having a brain fart.

 

[Caetano93]

fwiw your last replay is a game where you tried to start the riolu roar chain against a LO garchomp that had already revealed dragon tail yet they didn't click it again... you were not in a position to start rioluing there and only benefited from your opponent having a brain fart.

Because of Prankster, Roar is faster than Dragon Tail so i will go first and start the chain anyway. He did the correct play trying to crit me.

 

[Caetano93]

My own Nom:

I also am going to say again that I think Weavile should be ranked, right above Kingdra in C. Its cool for HO rainsquads so lati doesnt F your mons. Saw a cool team by zf I think, with sub, protect, scald, secret sword keld, and spdef breloom. The team had no real lati switch in, and you just use weav to take it out and you wreck stuff with your two fighting mons. It also pairs well with those two mons especially because they often cannot touch jellicent what so ever, so it can help deal with that. With banded Weavile (which is a good set IMO) you can ohko jellicent with nightslash and rocks (unless they are like max hp max def bold, which in all fairness could be used) if they think they are slick and can stay in. Priority ice shard is of course great as well, and enjoys having dragonites multiscale broken by rocks so it can ohko. All in all its a niche mon, but I think it should be placed.

I support this nom. Weavile needs more love and C rank fit nicely for it (it is a lot better than Sableye and Kingdra, lmao). His CB set hits hurt and can even run alongside Eject Button mons to have an easier time traping his targets. I see it as a B- mon but i'm nice with it as a C for a start.

 

[Bughouse]

Because of Prankster, Roar is faster than Dragon Tail so i will go first and start the chain anyway. He did the correct play trying to crit me.

Could have sworn Dragon Tail was 1 prio ahead of Roar so all Prankster would do is make them line up, but obviously Chomp is faster than Riolu... alas it is actually same prio. My b.

 

[Hematemesis]

Let's start the big guns:

Riolu Unranked --> C:

Ok, i know what a lot of players are thinking "wtf this little s*** does?" Well, to anyone that follow my replays and small tours have already see me with my Riolu Squad team. And it works (most of the times).
Prankster Copycat have a LOT of utility but his foremost use is to have priority Roar. This win games alone if well played. The set:

Riolu @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roar
- Copycat
- Circle Throw
- Final Gambit

The idea is to bring him versus something that can't ohlo it and start having fun. Jolly makes you faster than Scizor and Breloom so they can't criple you with theyr prioritys. Leftovers is to nulify sand damage. Suport from Screens / Memento is apreciated.
Final Gambit is used when you don't need Riolu anymore and want to preserve momentum.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen5ou-489218 showing Copycat and Final Gambit Utility.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-925739958 Riolu put Garchomp in Terrakion CC range.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen5ou-913262484 Riolu sweep x spinless team (old replay but still have it point show).

It's NOT a mon that work everytime, need a lot of team support but have a nice niche, exactly like all other C rank mons. That's the reason i want to see it ranked too.

Yeah, the fact that copycat roar can obliterate certain teams when you get hazards up if they don't have priority means this heinous, gimmicky little dude is at least mildly viable. I support this nom.

 

[ani ibi procidat]

I must profess my confusion with regards to the fact that Celebi is ranked such lowly for a pokemon with great versitility ! Perhaps it is a good time to reconsider this ? Please share your thoughts for debate.

 

[Icemann]

I must profess my confusion with regards to the fact that Celebi is ranked such lowly for a pokemon with great versitility ! Perhaps it is a good time to reconsider this ? Please share your thoughts for debate.

Yeah Celebi may have a lot going for it on paper, but a lot of other pokemon can do what it does better in may situations. You're often strapped for team slots, so celebi isn't super common right now. Spdef Breloom is especially really good right now, so that also hurts it in this current meta because of how amazing breloom is (not to say celebi is bad though). Its really only super viable set is a nasty plot baton pass set. The more defensive sets have fallen out of vogue recently. Still a decent mon, just not super common right now.

Mew, a pokemon who in theory is even MORE "versatile" than celebi, is ranked even lower. Just because the amount of moves it can run/sets it can run is huge, does not translate to viability (often times those sets get outlcassed by others). Mew gets outrage but that does not mean its going to be taking a team slot over kyub/nite/chomp or others.

 

[Finchinator]

Seeing as we are discussing Riolu above, I figured it would also be a good idea to include Lucario in the viability rankings. It has seen much better days, even being considered a strong option during the days of modern BW, but it has fallen off a lot since then. I would not personally advise using it in serious settings, but it is still a fringe viable option, leading me to believe it should reside in C+ or B- alongside a lot of other fringe picks.

 

[phosphor]

I'm supposed to be quitting but this post is living rent-free in my head and I wanted to do one last contribution to repay a favor so here are my horrible opinions nobody likes from a guy who doesn't even play anymore then I'll be back to bothering nobody.

It's actually pretty hard for me to stick to what I believe in in the presence of a consensus (aka me putting Jira in A- despite it being more popular now), but I kinda tried. The ban on Sleep kinda shifted the meta away from the very fat playstyle (drop on Glis Reun Tran Amoong) which kinda broke apart the circle they formed with Loom and Tenta. As much as the metagame has drastically changed because of this, I may be biased towards not dropping specific mons too hard just because they are staples.

My Personal Viability Rankings

S

I think all the S Ranks got better. Triple Psychic and Ground is more of a thing now, and the metagame change benefitted all of Latios/ Ferro/ Lando-T/ TTar

- It was consensus the best before the metagame shift that gave it an extra slot, and now here we are. I reserve S+ for mandatory mons like RBY Tauros or GSC Snorlax or SS Clefable, but you can run Latios every game of BW you will ever play TBH. The only thing stopping me from making this S+ is the existence of quite a few teams that aren't really disadvantaged by not running Latios. I wanted to say something new here, so I don't want to describe what we all know Latios already does. However, I believe that Sand's finally being cemented as the best weather, the Sleep ban, and the resulting freed Latios moveslot are all related so some stating the obvious is in order.

Latios is actually a key component of weather wars happening (ugh I hate using the term weather wars in 2020). Weatherless teams must be able to weather (heh) Latios, outpace it, or die, which leads to balances having TTar to trap it (and with TTar comes Sand) and offenses either running Toed to make Latios switch into boosted Water-type attacks to die fast or just going the DragMag route and be powerful enough to trade kills with it. In the specific cases of weather vs weather, Rain has traditionally employed Latios to get TTar in to trap it and get it to low health for Rain to win over vs Sand, and Sand has traditionally used Latios to Trick on Rain builds with only one Steel type. So where do the recent metagame changes affect this in such a way that Sand is now consensus better? Is it really just more Trick leading more ratio of Sand Latios using Trick against Rain Steels limiting Rain to structures that can deal with that happening to them (AKA PHeal Loom, Thundy-T, or dual Steel builds)?

I thought about it and found my answer here- it all boils down to Latios being the only mon in the tier where its sheer presence outweighs any possible negatives of it, and the free slot really just solidified this general aspect. I have seen teams this SPL where the only Water resists were Latios and PHealLoom, and it was competitive because even though he won't defensively provide for the team, Latios always claims his due.

- I looked at my builder and realized Ferrothorn is my most used mon, along with two peculiarities with how I used it in each team. First, when I was using it in a team with a second Steel, I always made sure that that second Steel couldn't be trapped by Zone, almost as if I either accepted that Ferro was gonna die to get up two layers of hazards or that I can use Worry Seed to escape (and accordingly, all my Ferro are either dual hazards or Worry Seed lol). Second, there was never an awkward set I had for it. I could tailor Ferrothorn to anything I wanted for my team as every single move it has pretty much defines its role. Teams that suffered from fat Gliscor abuse where I had no spinner and didn't want Tar to get hurt by Meteors early? Worry Seed. Psychic-spam where I wanna get both hazards up ASAP and everybody else kills Tenta (like PsySpam)? Dual Hazards Gyro Knock. I even managed to make Chople work a lot (I will stand by this tech BTW so feel free to call me bad).

This guy is so good that I fully believe if Latios gets the boot, this guy will also be kinda borked (since Latios is actually how a lot of teams pile damage on Ferro). Whip is stronger than ever as Tenta is more SpDef than ever. Gyro is base 150 Power on everyone more than 250 or so Speed and if Thundy-T isn't Def+ Sub (and this set got much more popular this SPL) it can actually form part of a system of responses to Thundy (obviously not an answer or switch lol). In Rain people pretty much just use this as a suicide lead after getting Rain up so Zone doesn't just kill, but better cause it's defensively amazing until it gets trapped. Leech always keeps one layer of hazard up, Knock reduces the longevity of everything and is basically as good as a Burn on opposing Rotom-W in Sand, and so on and so forth. Keld doesn't even OHKO it and sometimes eating Specs Secret Sword to Power Whip for 80 is a play.

One can argue that in the same vein as Jirachi and Heatran, it got worse cause more Latios run Trick now. But the kicker is it gets Spikes, Latios is stronger than ever, and it always manages to trade itself for a net positive even in the worst scenarios. Before the Sleep ban, there were some games and matchups where, if your Ferrothorn is incapacitated, you just cannot produce pressure on your opponent's team and cannot win. The fact that some teams are confident with this handicap shows just how good this guy is, because it is so consistent in producing pressure. Many bulky teams had to be littered with Taunt/ Burn/ Knock to avoid having to play Choice Item games with it/ have to setup vs it when the opponent still had a stop for your setup mon (think BoltBeam Reun vs Ttar). And now those handicaps are gone.

- A team without a Scarfer/ booster faster than 309 Speed or a Rocky Helmet/ Iron Barbs/ Rough Skin user of its own must either be Stall or have its own Jolly Scarf Lando-T. This guy is more oppressive than some might think, if you look at it from a pure momentum standpoint- a team that this guy can freely U-turn on is a team that just will be kept on the back foot all game. Scarf has been ragged on a bit the past few years, but I still think Scarf is amazing, still the best set because of how flexible it is and how hard you can tailor it. I have never found Scarf wanting, like Ferro there is a Scarf Lando-T for everything. No solid response to Thundy-T/ Torn? Stone Edge on this+ Rock Slide on ChopleTar. Reun problems? Adamant Punishment. TTar is your Rocks user? Second SR user on last slot. Need to do all that at once? Explode. And that is still not accounting for the fact that Lando-T has non-Scarf sets. The fact that Defensive+LEFTIES (helmet was typo) came back definitely hurt Gliscor and such and is great vs Loom on Sand.

But enough about the obvious, how did Lando-T actually improve in this new meta? One of the reasons I can think of is (discounting the obvious Lando-T is a Loom Sleep target lol) the loss of Spore on Loom means it needs Attack investment to punish Latios switchins with damage (or just run ToxTect lol), which means less SpDef investment, which means Sand+ HP Ice can sort of check it early game lol. I am a non-believer in HP Fly, roast me (at least of Scarf). You're really gonna lock yourself on a lure move vs a mon who almost always runs Protect in exchange for your weapon against Glis and the DDing Dragons? If somebody can explain it to me I am all ears.

- This guy's position at S was most contentious right before the Sleep ban, but now that that is gone Ttar's position here is as cemented as before. The Latios set that got better is the one that beats Rain, although I must express my feeling that Ttar isn't explicitly run for Sand anymore (which is a bit of a lie since obviously Sand teams benefit from Sand just by the pressure it brings alone but you get my idea). Yeah, Sand's popularity has killed recovery-less LO users and put SR weak sweepers like Volc and Mence on a timer, and it cancels Rain which Rain teams really need, but honestly most Sand balances aren't really balance teams that use Sand to minimize the amount of opposing mons that can pose a threat over time/ as a method to pressure and cause net damage over long games, and more of... balance teams with TTar to trap Latios so it doesn't go ham. I actually had TTar in A+ (cue further laughter) before the Sleep ban and I feel this rise reflects Sand less than the rise of Ttar to answer Latios, which just so happens to bring Sand with it.

Funny thing to note is that against teams with Reun or Thundy or Volc, how much HP this guy has left often straight up tells you what phase you are in the game. Vs Latios+ Reun/ Thundy, even if I don't have Rocks on my field and an attack from Latios that I switch TTar in on would guarantee its demise, I would still rather sack my most useless guy just for that chance not to take that extra hit in the Crunch/ Pursuit mindgame. Sometimes Ttar feels more like a necessity than an asset.

A+

- I've noticed a new trend with Sand Force Excadrill wherein before, people used to carry it with two Rotom-W answers to compensate, but now people are beginning to care less about that. Anyway, Rotom-W and Loom got stronger (I'll explain this later), so I feel this got better. More PHeal Loom and Sand mirrors mean more Sand Force Drill, and more Rotom-W means more Mold Breaker Drill. He also has kind of an arms race with Scarf Lando-T where it wants Def for Terrak and Chomper but that leaves it slower than Jolly Scarf Exca, so any boost in Lando-T and drop for Gliscor is a win for Exca. Less Amoonguss is less opportunities to Spin, though.

I think what really brings Excadrill up is that fact that he makes team structures exist. I just can't see how a lot of these teams would work without Exca's ability to spin on Skarmory or a burnt Ferro, or invalidate Jirachi, or whatever. Being weak to Excadrill is just another unacceptable thing in the tier and one of the reasons why teams whose Ground resists are Levitators carry Magnet Rise Zone and why Scarf Lando-T is at least 414 Speed.

- I'm dissatisfied with the "people just weren't prepared for non-Spore PHeal Loom" excuse and I felt like I needed to put it into words to justify this rise because otherwise it will seems like everyone suddenly just 'woke up'. Was it simply just a shift in perspective, that most people just thought Loom HAD to use Spore and thus they didn't see how good it could be without it? Perhaps. But looking at the new sets where it seems the move substituted for Spore defensively covers what Spore defended against (even though more specifically, like Tect burning Draco PP or Facade 2HKOing Latios or Focus Punch punishing offensive checks), it becomes apparent that people weren't really using Breloom for Breloom. It was not just a case of being obligated to use Spore, but Breloom being used for Spore specifically, as if they had to choose between Breloom or Spore and always picked Spore. I'm more satisfied saying it that way, even if the difference can be perceived as minor.

- People have begun to really optimize their Toed usage, and the more BW play has refined itself the less Toed itself is just a fat Water roadblock who needs to stay alive for Rain. I now see max SpDef on Toed to take a hit from Torn, actually buffer Water-type attacks, and not lose your Rain when you switch in Toed on Reun to Encore and eat Thunder. Rain is definitely worse now, though, so a small drop is due.

- I have grown to like Keldeo more than I used to recently. Yeah, Tenta is more SpDef now, yeah FatLoom is everywhere and it can actually trade vs Keld, yeah more Latios than ever and yeah Scarf Adamant Sand Force Exca does like 80 with EQ. But Amoong is dead. Reun is weaker. And this makes Rain Keld better. Specs/ ToxTect are also awesome at dealing with cheese like Volc or Stall and can get Latios in for damage early game. Scarf destroys Offense. Also, I think an underappreciated quality of Keldeo is pulling unexpected bulk out of its ass.

- This is a big fall from grace which requires an explanation, IMO. Theoretically, with the loss of Spore on Loom turning Chomp's traditionally good matchup vs it into a winning one, Chomp would be better? But Latios is also better now, it's faster than Chomp, and the loss of Spore actually means Loom would run more Protect+ Bulk Up, or SubPunch, or Tox, or Band, or trade HP with SD+ Drain Punch which are all better vs Chomp than a Loom that has already Spored something. On a side note, more folks should use Band. People like to use Mixed to punish fat Sand but the more Latios who can switch in on SD and the less Skarmory there are in exchange for Lando, the better Band is. Protect can also be good nowadays. Scarf often has room on its last slot for SR or Tox for Cress. Be creative.

I guess an issue with Garchomp is it doesn't really fit defensively into teams, but you're not putting Garchomp on your team to defend (even though it does have a lot of great defensive qualities). You're throwing it in there to end the game.

- Important caveats with the popularity of PHeal Loom are as follows: PHeal Loom is slower than Rotom-W and can be Volted on, PHeal Loom's regenerative ability is drastically cut in Sand, more PHeal Loom means more Sand Force Drill which Rotom-W effortlessly counters, HP Fly> Pain Split is not actually that costly. Furthermore, there's less Tran which can actually harass this, there's more Ferro and Ferro walls Rotom-W worse than other mons who have Regenerator/ Natural Cure and gets Burned then Wisped on and switches into Spikes, and there's more Lando-T than ever. I find sometimes metagame effects of an prominent mon strengthens both those that complement it and those it directly counters and mostly weakens everyone outside that paradigm. Maybe Rotom-W is one of those cases.

A

- The rise of Trick Latios fucking Rain Steels has seen the rise of SpDef Tentacruel (it has always existed but not to this extent), and I think this explains why it is so good now. Tentacruel had the sheer bulk to adapt. People are also exploring more options on it, like Sludge Bomb (I think Sludge Wave is better on teams with both Loom and Rachi, tho). Also it has this sort of war with Ferro and Ferro is better than ever soooo

- More Latios means Rain needs to run guys who can hit it before getting hit, and both Agi and Sub sets do that. But there's also another effect that boosted Thundy's viability- it can threaten everything but Chansey and Gastrodon. As the breaker of Rain, it does what Latios does (get Ttar in and hit them for 60-70%) but with that nice bonus of being a Volcarona-esque sweeper after Agility. Thundy's job is to make sure meta teams don't get too weak to Thundy. I wish I had more to say about the rise of this mon, but he's pretty cut-and-dry. Above Gliscor because that guy is kinda no longer a Sand staple, while you often use Politoed for this guy.

- I disagree with the notion that now that Loom is more popular, that it's using sets that win against non-SD Gliscor, that LandoT is moving back to defensive sets which beat this, that LandoT checks non-booster Loom better (SubPunch mostly), and that Heatran and Jirachi is worse, that this guy is no longer as strong. IMO Gliscor was always more akin to a stallbreaker. And looking upwards from this ranking, Gliscor is actually looking pretty good. Specs Latios doesn't OHKO SpDef Glis from full. Taunt sets fuck Ferro. Only EBelt mixed TTar kills SpDef Glis from max. Excadrill hates Gliscor more than Lando-T cause it can atleast do permanent damage to the latter. Loom is iffy vs SpDef SD Facade. Turn 1 Toed is scouted for Choice or Defensive with Protect and if it is the latter taking 70 from Scald in exchange for Knock or Tox is very feasible IMO (worst case scenario is Tect to reveal Offensive Gem and clicking HPump where you die, second worst case scenario is them having Refresh but it's still information for the latter). Chomp, eh I'd say Chomp only loses to PhysDef Ice Fang or any Tox set but the latter switches out after and prays Chomp isn't sub (which isn't the most answerable prayer). Gliscor eats HPump once from Rotom-W and can Tox or Knock it which in Sand drastically cuts its longevity. If it has SD Facade, it just kills it except in a scenario where it's like 252/252 Bold lol. And Tenta trades its life for like 70% on SpDef Glis- most of the time not worth it. Yeah, I'm not dropping this.

- PsySpam is better than ever, Ferro is better than ever, guys who benefit from Zone (like Lando-T and Loom) are better than ever, therefore Zone is. If I were to add something though, is that the dichotomy of team littered with passive damage (Burn Knock Sand Taunt) vs teams with Zone (who don't need these shenanigans theoretically) is kinda gone now. Looking at Zone use last SPL, Zone is no longer used as a lynchpin for a team but as a Ferro remover for weatherless balance/ DragMag/ Spikeless PsySpam builds, pretty much, which kinda speaks to how centralizing Ferro is.

- if Latios is better why is Zam this low? I just think this is the highest I can place him. There's been a resurgence of teams with Alakazam but without Latios lately.

- Heatran's drop is no surprise. It has always traditionally relied on Protect+ Status or Magma Storm (both with Sand) to get the Latios chip, but now Recover Latios is more feasible and Rain is now using more Tenta Keld and Thundy-T. A switchin opportunity in Amoonguss is also gone. Also Spikes and yeah it gets walled by stuff

- everybody knows the more Trick= less Reun happening, but honestly the rabbit didn't fall so hard. With the Spore ban Reun no longer needs to creep Amoonguss and is now only creeping for other Reun, and he can check Loom/ Rotom-W/ Tenta/ Ferro/ Rain attackers after CM. I feel like the meta hinges more on Reun more than it externally appears. If your opponent has no remaining checks to Reun, if they can't offensively pressure you, Reun WILL sweep. Non-negotiable. It's this low by virtue of the metagame having adapted around it.

A-

- Exca got better and most Latios are now Trick. Jirachi's niche now I feel is confined to role compression for very offensive builds or Loom Rain and as such I believe a small drop is warranted. However, it seems that Jirachi is actually seeing more usage? I guess people really like those aforementioned styles.

- I feel like Terrakion is very underated simply because the metagame has adapted around it so much. Not having a solid Terrak check (or sequence) is actually a lethal mistake for a Sand team (whereas Rain can usually trade fire with Terrak cause it doesn't have to run a guy who is bait to it). CB Terrak is also great vs DragMag. However, being forced to diversify from Band and Protect+ SD says a bit about how the meta has changed lol. Defensively less viable, and people have worried less about Volc and Skarm which means less use.

- It doesn't actually Brave Bird more now cause PsySpam is better this meta and SpDef Helmet Taunt Skarm fits on that. Rain is weaker now and Skarm is dead weight vs Rain, also this both answers and supports Latios so despite the prevalence of Rotom and Mag I think this didn't get worse. Obviously though it picks its poison with Helmet for fat Exca and Lando vs Shed for Mag and Taunt for Ferro vs BB for Loom. I believe a lot of modern teams aren't as careful of Skarm now, actually.

- Anyone can say Nite has many sets. Band, Rain, classic DD, these all exist. But IMO there is only one set that is A- worthy and by proxy makes all the other sets scarier, and that is SubDD. SubDD takes a mile from any free turn it is given and is pretty much a PP burning machine.

- You could actually argue KyuB improved cause it has the similar checks to Latios so almost being B+ may be personal bias or something (I don't use KyuB that much). I'd say KyuB wins out on more Jirachi, Jira had to have like 40 Def EVs to eat Band KyuB Outrage after SR, and even then it had to also have U-turn into a guy who could OHKO or Body Slam+ Iron Head. If you can get an opportunity to Outrage, lone Steel Jirachi offense can be quite hurt by CB KyuB. Otherwise yeah it does a lot of damage but it opens up for Terrak and such.

B+

The B rankings are where I wanted to be most meticulous, and I tried to ask myself at every mon whether I believed it was better than the ones above it. The result of this line of thinking, though, may have been that I ranked those I felt threatened by higher and those I felt were useful in terms of utility lower. There are many mons here that I believe HAVE to be taken account when you are building a team (Volcarona, Mamoswine, the Wisp+ Taunt users, Chansey/ Sun Stall in general) to the point where if you are not thinking about them you are just... matchup fishing for standard, if that makes sense.

- I mean, objectively this got better, but it just doesn't feel that way for me. Probably better vs Rain, cause of all the Thundy-T and Loom and Toed is leaning towards SpDef, but Tenta is still running at least 285 Speed for it and Keld's still popular anyway. As for Sand, it no longer tends to follow the structures that Mamoswine really preyed on (which are bulkier) in favor of Rotom-W momentum-based stuff (and Rotom-W is more popular than ever, first 10 SPL games Rotom-W was in 8/10 of those). I don't know, he just feels like he got worse.

----- this is the point where my opinions start to diverge heavily from consensus -----

- I never really got why this guy would get ranked so low, and I have been an avid user of it. Specs kills every offensive mon and some defensive ones after SR, and outpaces Latios. Rain needs to have a plan for this or is screwed. Mispredict vs Sand and Tar's Pursuit doesn't even do more than 60%, meanwhile you get the same baiting in TTar aspect of Latios. Sure, the defensive elements are gone, but Torn has so many options. Knock, Tailwind, Taunt, Superpower, Tect or Sub, I really don't get it and I wish somebody would just explain it to me already. Speaking of Knock, that+ Superpower is awesome vs Chansey builds.

- People really don't give a crap about Volcarona anymore, as evidenced by the multitude of teams showing up whose answer to it is... TrickScarf Rotom-W. Are they really so confident that no team will have both Volcarona and strong backup, or that they will get Rocks up early and never drop them? I guess the risk of running into Tenta+ Keld and playing 5-6 is just unacceptably high (and yes it's pretty easy to check with some thought, despite the existence of teams who don't think about it)

- Long-term progress maker in the same vein as Rotom-W, except with Taunt, Recover, and the ability to totally wall Keldeo without Tox/ PHeal Loom without Seed Bomb or Toxic. On a side note, I'm not a believer in TSpikes for handling this and Gastro on Rain builds. I guess the purpose is to burn Recover PP when it switches in on one layer assuming they can't prevent them from going up? I love this guy, but it just wants to be fast soo baad and it wants that max Defense sooo baaad. Flawed mon.

- The bane of Rain Offense. It trades status with Rotom-W and prevents it from gaining momentum with Volt Switch. It also kinda deals with Keld and Mie and screws with Thundy-T. However, it's less of a general purpose wall and more of a specific answer to those guys that happens to have a Ground type (and thus deals with Rachi shenanigans) cause it's lacking in sheer bulk and that makes it hard to wield in Sand mirrors. It also Thundy for Ttar so it doesn't have to be Chople, I guess. But then you still need that for Zam and Reun and you're not any better against Volc.

- Yeah, Amoonguss has a lot of cool properties. Absorb TSpikes? Wall Keld? Stonewall Chansey? Smex. But for an anti-rain mon it's just... too passive against rain (yeah it beats Thundy-T, Keld, and other stuff, yeah Latios doesn't just dunk on it, but you're so free for Ferro/ Jira/Tenta), and you're obligated to run at least one move on it that can break Thundy-T Subs. It relied so much on Spore to make progress that even if you say Stun/Drain/HP Ground/Sludge Bomb or something expands its list of guys it answers it's still getting Spiked on and hardstopped by Ferro in Rain.

- Starmie sucks. Defensive is one of those weird sets where it's frustrating on the other side but does nothing when you use it. Defensive can be hell for passive teams to deal with and it can also burn Ferro and Ttar, but it has more chance of being Ttar/ Ferro bait or it runs something like TWave or Reflect Type in which case it's bait for something else. Offensive LO just dies so fast, and having another item means you avoid 2HKOs on the fat Water of choice with TBolt/ Thunder. Specs in Rain is cool. Starmie would be lower if it weren't for the new trend of usng it with Exca so the mole doesn't have to use Spin and can be the best offensive materiel in BW.

- Sun is worse now. Ninetales' viability is heavily tied to the viability of its posse (Chansey and Cresselia), and the rise of Loom/ Keld/ Zor/ Glis does not bode well for those guys (most of the Rains I saw this SPL were no longer the Loomless/ Keldless/ Zorless?? builds Sun usually preys on, Knock Torn is also standard now).

- I think the biggest issue with Slowbro to me is how much I have to compress EVs on him, and how he can't use Rocky Helmet in Sand which makes my team much more passive vs Lando-T. Yeah sure, he's thick, but he's grounded and not as thick as Tang. Stuff to deal with Tran is also in less demand and he also eats like 40-50 from Ttar Crunch. You can use this over Lando-T to free up a Ground-type slot if you don't like having 3 Grounds, but having 3 Grounds isn't bad.

B

B to me is the last of the "threatening" mons, and by that I mean your team needs to have at least a very small plan for every mon up to the end of this list, cause having zero defense vs them, unlike in B- and below, can end you

- The onion saw quite a resurgence recently. I've actually seen people use 3 attacks NP on teams where you're led to believe it will be passing boosts, so there's that.

- Yep, I am drinking the Kool-Aid Tang. It saddens me to see people have such little faith in it as I am a really big believer in this guy and also believe people will wake up to this in the future. It's a Regenerator mon that both blanket answers pretty much every physical attacker except Scizor, but also can Worry Seed on Breloom and Gliscor. Yeah, it lost Sleep Powder like Amoonguss, but Tangrowth's sheer bulk and much higher attacking stats means it relied less on that Sleep to be active cause it could do the job itself. And yeah, like Bro you can use this over Lando-T to free up a Ground-type slot if you don't like having 3 Grounds.

- God, every metagame I expect this to be good already and it never follows through. People keep showing up with teams that get massacred by Night Shade Stallbreaker Mew and still nobody brings it. I don't get it. I trust my judgment on this mon, though, and I believe its time will come.

- This is the mon where if you have a plan for it, it's pretty underwhelming, but if you don't have a plan for it you auto-lose. Fortunately, most of the extra stuff you can be carrying to defeat Chansey often ends up being the best option for your team by themselves (like random item removal, poison-immune mons with Toxic like Glis, Tenta, MagmaTran in Sand)

- Gigantic asshole that necessitates the presence of something like SD Terrak or SD Chomp or BandLoom on fast paced offense (though IMO like Chansey you should be having a guy that beats Cress anyway aside from just Ttar). However, she's not as much of a problem for slower paced breakers. Even with Skill Swap, SD Loom and SD Glis can always just swap out immediately, meanwhile Moonlight only has 8 PP. Having to run either Skill Swap or Reflect greatly increases the number of mons that can harass Cress, and even with either there is stuff you lose out on (Skill Swap invites Tar, Reflect allows stallbreakers to be a problem). She also needs a Steel-type mon with a powerful STAB at her side to deal with Band KyuB, else she will have to Toxic it on the switch and spam Moonlight.

- Hell for PsySpam/ Double Grass to fight, but it's still pretty vulnerable to Spikes and just takes too much damage from Latios for me to like it. Hardest counter to Reun in game.

- One of those mons Rain has to have an answer to or autoloses against. However, it's so vulnerable to chip, often doesn't hit immediately hard enough for its opportunity cost, and Ferro and Rotom-W are more popular than ever. This may be much lower than where others would place it, but I am okay with him being here.

- Actually operates very differently from Gastrodon, as unlike the slug Seismitoed has all of Stealth Rock, Knock Off, and Refresh, and is more than willing to use them on the same set. In a sense, less of a wall and more of a progress starter vs guys like Toed or Rotom-W. It can keep up Rocks vs Tenta, too.

- Another of those mons which Rain has to have an answer to or autoloses against. I am a believer in SD LO 3 attacks and not much else.

- yep you heard me. It's only here though because teams exist than can be screwed by Xatu alone. Only true Ferro counter in the game

----- up to here is where I believe ends the list of mons that can screw you if not prepared for -----

B-

- Specs or SubWisp is cool

- good vs slow fat balance, awful vs fast paced offense. However, looking at the current standards, you see teams of Tar/ Ferro or Loom/ Rotom-W/ Tran or Reun and teams like this are prime targets. Also I always use this with Superpower lol

- I like to substitute Specs Latias for Specs Latios on teams which are a bit too vulnerable to Thundy-T and Keldeo. She can also pull off some Colbur Berry/ Psycho Shift shenanigans. CM I dunno if I am keen on. In general, Latias is just way too easy to trap.

- Slowking this far behind from Slowbro? LOL. Anyway, sometimes I forget how durable this guy really is. He just doesn't die. He feels more like a luxury than a hole patcher, TBH. Keldeo counter that doesn't lose to Amoong or Tenta and can possibly threaten Ferro out.

- DragMag staple, can really wreck Sand whose Scarfer is Lando-T

- PP stalling Sub machine that preys on players who aren't aggressive enough/ use mons that can't break this guy's subs/ bring teams without Reun. Similar to Volc and Thundy, but with speed problems.

- provides Sand for builds that have enough Steels to shrug off Latios without having TTar, and in that vein gives a Chomp/ Terrak answer and a guy who can keep up Rocks vs Drill/ sometimes Tenta??

----- up to here is where I believe should be everything you would normally be seeing in BW -----

C

- simultaneous soft check for Volcarona and Ground-types, Burn is not that bad on it and Para lets it check everything, but just way too passive especially with Hypnosis gone.

- no experience with this never used, Scarf can be cool

- Basically Jirachi, but it floats so it beats Lando-T, SF Drill and Garchomp. However, it just doesn't have enough SpDef to take Specs Latios Surfs and is forced to run max/max which leaves it weaker in dealing with the former mons. Kinda flawed.

- Sits behind a Substitute and spams Thunder and sometimes HP Ice or Baton Pass, sorta like Def Thundy-T without the doubt factor. Gives teams a solid standalone answer to opposing Thundy, but it is weak to SR and can do kinda way too little to Ttar

- defensive set keeps Spikes up vs Exca and prevents it from keeping up Rocks, also can one time check Terrakion

- spear/shard/razor/smash in rain is cool

- damage output suuuuuucks when you want it to hit hard, but giving it life orb kills its niche of being able to stand in sand to burn Rotom and not care about Lando-T, also makes ScarfTar Pursuit kill you much quicker. Spinblocker who loses to every spinner, inherently flawed mon. Great at making progress tho cause burn is so good in BW

- traps Latios, damaged Zam, and weakened mons. IMO Band Weavile is the closest thing BW has to Dugtrio

- cancels all the other weather and brings in a highly caustic one, but you lose a team slot.

- only Band but can get trapped by Ttar

- fuck DragMag specifically lol, also has shenanigans with Zor

----- this is the lowest I will go -----

A concluding remark I have is that even compared to last year, BW teams seem to no longer be as comprehensive as before. People respect fringe threats like Mamoswine or Volcarona less, but I can understand why if you think of it as your opponent also taking a risk bringing them.

EDIT- made changes since I overlooked some meta shifts, like Keld above Chomp, Thundy-T above Glis and Zor above Gyara

 

[LuckOverSkill]

Excadrill is progressively becoming more prevalent in the metagame. I wonder if it is S worthy, or if it will be if the trend continues. I would say yes, especially since Skarmory's usage is low at the moment.

I like SubTect with Sand Force, but Mold Breaker Toxic, or Sand Force Spin + STABs + Protect are all excellent sets that can help your team out. Pairing it with Knock Off Landorus-T makes for a fearsome breaker, since you are most likely going to Knock Rotom-W and Skarmory.

 

[FNH]

Just a few nit picks based off of my observations recently. I agree with Luck>skill that excdrill is amazing atm, and if it continues he could almost be S rank. Just maybe.

Jirachi could go a closer to the bottom of the A rank. Bulky grounds are everywhere, and Excadrill being so damn good at the moment makes Jirachi just a harder mon to choose for a team slot. The sets that seems to work right now are Shuca SR leads for Drag mags and bulkier SR for rain offense. Based on my observations though, Excadrill just seems to make him less prevalent.

Amoonguss could almost go higher up in the B+ rank. Post spore ban he has maintained his relavence in part due to regenerator being a broken ability and he can sit on Breloom, forcing him out with HP fire/ice. The Defensive spreads for him really make him a great tank.

Sun is just meh now. There are some sun stall teams or the CB spams with like a victini + another phys fire that work, but these only seem to appear in less serious matches. Id be inlcined to drop him to B.

I love Gyarados, cool mon, but his staple set (Sub DD) just has so many conditions you need to meet for it to work. He also has the moxie scarf set which can work, but its really not the best option which is why it isnt used very often. With so many bulky Rotom's and Ferrothorns out, or bulky toeds looking to encore him, he just seems meh currently. I'd be inclined to swap his and Amoonguss's positions, but what do I know.

Moltres should definately make the C rank. He is certainly viable, just difficult to use. The 4x rock weakness sucks, but if you can keep rocks cleared, Moltres is certainly a threat. C is perfect rank for him.

 

[Ununhexium]

hi i have two nominations

A+ -> S

Excadrill is simply one of the best Pokemon in BW OU right now as it combines significant utility (Rapid Spin) with significant offensive power (Sand Force boosted attacks). In a metagame that is so dominated by entry hazards and sand damage, a Pokemon immune to sand and can remove entry hazards is simply too good to pass up for pretty much any team that isn't full of Spikes-immune Pokemon or Tentacruel. I cant really imagine building most sand teams in this meta without Excadrill because its simply just the best spinner in the tier.

That's nothing to say of its offensive capabilities. Sand Force allows Excadrill to heavily pressure the best hazard setter (Ferrothorn) and the best spinblocker (Jellicent) and can even wear Landorus-T down rather quickly in conjunction with Stealth Rock. I guess what I'm saying is that whenever I use Excadrill it pulls weight and is always a threat when it comes in. The only really hard counters to Excadrill are Rotom-W (for Sand Force sets) and Skarmory (which is kinda bad in this meta), as Gliscor has been running less Defense investment recently and Landorus-T can be chipped pretty quickly. It's really just a fantastic mon.

A -> A+

When I play against a rain team, no mon feels quite as threatening to me as Thundurus-T does. Its combination of coverage, immediate power, and ability to get behind a Substitute with ease just makes it super threatening, particularly other rain teams. It's one of the main reasons Latios is forced to run Recover on choiced sets. With a bit of bulk investment it can set up subs even more easily on Pokemon such as Ferrothorn and take a chunk out of whatever comes in. Also, its ability to set up subs so easily makes it even tougher for Pokemon such as Latios to check Thundy because taking an HP Ice means Latios has to Recover, giving you at least one free turn then and potentially another one later, depending on when the Latios chooses to Recover.

On top of that, it has its Agility sets which can absolutely decimate more offensive teams after it gets a boost because it absolutely smokes common Choice Scarf users like Landorus-T, Keldeo, and even Latios after it gets down to half. It's just terrifying to face and deserves a rise right now.

 

[Nalorium]

Hi everyone, I would like to propose some changes, I know that maybe my experience in BW is not as extensive but I think they are valid

B+ --> A-
Lately I have seen a lot of Jellicents on major tours, ladder etc. His ability to control pokes like Keldeo, Skarmory, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Breloom (in some cases), TTar (in some cases), Scizor, Heatran and with Taunt and good speed a (Politoed, Gastrodon and Seismitoad. Jelli is incredibly useful for control some MUs against rain or if your team needs something to stop walls. This is offered by Jellicent because with Taunt + WoW + Good speed it is very good to neutralize very annoying common walls such as Skarmory or Jirachi.

Jellicent has earned a spot on used teams on some important tours due to the way he puts pressure on the team forcing a trade. Either because he has the rival pokemon under a Taunt and with little life or because he managed to hit a WoW and the rival mon is being chippered by the burn. And in this way, by forcing a change you can put a WoW to the mon that is going to enter or use a Night Shade which means -33% (more or less) to the pokemon that is going to enter.

Unranked --> C

It is true that the use of Shaymin from sleep ban has been drastic but his offensive pressure is still immense. The pressure exerted by being LO is very useful to face Sands and Rain teams. Moves like Seed Flare, Earth Power, HP Ice / Fire or Air Slash can strike a team completely. Even Rest + Natural Cure combination is very useful to make the pressure exerted by Shaymin prevail. Even Healing Wish is very useful in helping mons like Thundurus / Latios etc.

Damages

Seed Flare Damage against Tyranitar;
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 218-260 (53.9 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Seed Flare Damage against Politoed:
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 424-502 (110.4 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Seed Flare Damage against Landorus Defensive:
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 244 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-Therian: 286-337 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Seed Flare Damage against Landorus Offensive:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-Therian: 286-337 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Seed Flare Damage against Gliscor:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 244 HP / 244+ SpD Gliscor: 187-220 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

Seed Flare Damage against Excadrill:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 302-356 (83.6 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Seed Flare Damage against Rotom-Wash:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 299-354 (98.6 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

HP Ice against Latios:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 153-182 (50.8 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

HP Ice against Thundurus:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 200-237 (55.5 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see the offensive pressure exerted by Shaymin is huge and it’s bulk does not fall behind having a bulk similar of Jirachi or Celebi, that allows it to withstand a good number of hits and keep the pressure active.

 

[Icemann]

Hi everyone, I would like to propose some changes, I know that maybe my experience in BW is not as extensive but I think they are valid

View attachment 262995 B+ --> A-
Lately I have seen a lot of Jellicents on major tours, ladder etc. His ability to control pokes like Keldeo, Skarmory, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Breloom (in some cases), TTar (in some cases), Scizor, Heatran and with Taunt and good speed a (Politoed, Gastrodon and Seismitoad. Jelli is incredibly useful for control some MUs against rain or if your team needs something to stop walls. This is offered by Jellicent because with Taunt + WoW + Good speed it is very good to neutralize very annoying common walls such as Skarmory or Jirachi.

Jellicent has earned a spot on used teams on some important tours due to the way he puts pressure on the team forcing a trade. Either because he has the rival pokemon under a Taunt and with little life or because he managed to hit a WoW and the rival mon is being chippered by the burn. And in this way, by forcing a change you can put a WoW to the mon that is going to enter or use a Night Shade which means -33% (more or less) to the pokemon that is going to enter.

View attachment 263010Unranked --> C

It is true that the use of Shaymin from sleep ban has been drastic but his offensive pressure is still immense. The pressure exerted by being LO is very useful to face Sands and Rain teams. Moves like Seed Flare, Earth Power, HP Ice / Fire or Air Slash can strike a team completely. Even Rest + Natural Cure combination is very useful to make the pressure exerted by Shaymin prevail. Even Healing Wish is very useful in helping mons like Thundurus / Latios etc.

Damages

Seed Flare Damage against Tyranitar;
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 180+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 218-260 (53.9 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Seed Flare Damage against Politoed:
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 424-502 (110.4 - 130.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Seed Flare Damage against Landorus Defensive:
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 244 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-Therian: 286-337 (75.2 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Seed Flare Damage against Landorus Offensive:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0- SpD Landorus-Therian: 286-337 (89.3 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Seed Flare Damage against Gliscor:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 244 HP / 244+ SpD Gliscor: 187-220 (53.1 - 62.5%) -- 72.7% chance to 2HKO after Poison Heal

Seed Flare Damage against Excadrill:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 302-356 (83.6 - 98.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Seed Flare Damage against Rotom-Wash:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 248 HP / 232+ SpD Rotom-Wash: 299-354 (98.6 - 116.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

HP Ice against Latios:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 153-182 (50.8 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

HP Ice against Thundurus:

252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Hidden Power Ice vs. 244 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-Therian: 200-237 (55.5 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

As you can see the offensive pressure exerted by Shaymin is huge and it’s bulk does not fall behind having a bulk similar of Jirachi or Celebi, that allows it to withstand a good number of hits and keep the pressure active.

The chia pet is pretty dope actually and I agree it should be ranked. Its pretty bad but considering other stuff in C, it probably fits in there somewhere. Anytime I try shaymin I pair it with zone so you can run hp ice so its not a free switch for nite or smthn. The thing about shaymin is that it gets worn down so easily and if you mispredict it gets worn down for nothing and you lose 1 of 8 seed flare PP which sucks. And its sorta like roserade where yeah it gets "reliable recovery" in natural cure rest... but that sucks. I ran specs shaymin once and its funny seeing the health go down crazy and then spdef drop lmao. I also at one time noticed shaymin gets air slash but have never experimented with it personally. Anybody else have thoughts? Also i think a rocky helmet user is nice with it in a similar vein as celebi cause its uturn bait lol.

This thing would be so much better if its hair grew like a chia pet

Also rank roserade cause its just as good as the crap in c lol. yes i have a thing for weird grass types