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[some_random]

years since i last posted on this forum (had to made a new account since couldnt even find the one i used to use) but just made it here because just discovered gems are no longer avaible and wanted to say somewhere i cant decide what's the dumbest choice made lately regarding this tier: baning dugtrio and gothitelle, banning chlorophyl+sun (it wouldve been faster to simply ban ninetales lol), baton pass entirely, or now the gems.

i guess this post breaks god knows how many rules of the forum and will be erased and the account banned but couldnt care less lol, just been playing the tier on ladder since day 1 and its so frustrating to see all those senseless bans because veryimportantperson1 won who gives what tournament against veryimportantperson2 using a cloyster, while things like latios, keldeo, ttar, toed, zam or lando-t have centralised the tier for years; but yeah better to ban anything which could be used to be a little innovative

just let the tier die and stop making it worse and worse by each random ban mother of christ

 

[Monai]

years since i last posted on this forum (had to made a new account since couldnt even find the one i used to use) but just made it here because just discovered gems are no longer avaible and wanted to say somewhere i cant decide what's the dumbest choice made lately regarding this tier: baning dugtrio and gothitelle, banning chlorophyl+sun (it wouldve been faster to simply ban ninetales lol), baton pass entirely, or now the gems.

i guess this post breaks god knows how many rules of the forum and will be erased and the account banned but couldnt care less lol, just been playing the tier on ladder since day 1 and its so frustrating to see all those senseless bans because veryimportantperson1 won who gives what tournament against veryimportantperson2 using a cloyster, while things like latios, keldeo, ttar, toed, zam or lando-t have centralised the tier for years; but yeah better to ban anything which could be used to be a little innovative

just let the tier die and stop making it worse and worse by each random ban mother of christ

Be veryimportantperson3 voting against it then it only passed by one vote my guy

 

[clementinabroccolina]

years since i last posted on this forum (had to made a new account since couldnt even find the one i used to use) but just made it here because just discovered gems are no longer avaible and wanted to say somewhere i cant decide what's the dumbest choice made lately regarding this tier: baning dugtrio and gothitelle, banning chlorophyl+sun (it wouldve been faster to simply ban ninetales lol), baton pass entirely, or now the gems.

i guess this post breaks god knows how many rules of the forum and will be erased and the account banned but couldnt care less lol, just been playing the tier on ladder since day 1 and its so frustrating to see all those senseless bans because veryimportantperson1 won who gives what tournament against veryimportantperson2 using a cloyster, while things like latios, keldeo, ttar, toed, zam or lando-t have centralised the tier for years; but yeah better to ban anything which could be used to be a little innovative

just let the tier die and stop making it worse and worse by each random ban mother of christ

Would you care to explain how banning gems will make the tier worse? How is it stifling creativity when the best way to handle gem spam HO is to run the most restrictive archetype in the tier in rain, or is this just concern trolling. I'm leaning towards the latter because it's pretty disingenuous to act like Ttar and Lando-T are as problematic as drizzle, latios, or especially keldeo lol

If you want the tier to die (many, including me soooomewhat want it to) it would have to stop being allowed in tournaments since that's where things actually matter and what the meta actually is lol

 

[Bri~]

Clefable in BW OU.

Hello friends, Brian here. (Some may know me as Brn or Brine)

I don’t really post on the forums, like, at all. But I’m active in the BW discord, feel free to say hi to me if you’re in there.

Today I want to talk a little about Clefable. I felt like, with gems now banned, this would be the perfect time to look at Clefable.

Clefable (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Stealth Rock
- Thunder Wave/Knock Off/Counter/Healing Wish/???

The set I believe to have the most potential is the stealth rock set. It makes good use of its 95/90 special bulk, bolstered by Magic Guard to come onto the field vs special attackers and passive, status spreader type mons alike.

Item:

Leftovers are almost non-negotiable in my opinion. You want Clefable to switch into things like scalds from bulky waters and Rotom Volt Switch. Leftovers allow it to do so with relative ease.

Ability:

Magic Guard is controversial for a reason, this ability is strong. Clefable would not cross anyone’s mind if it didn’t have access to this absurd ability. You all know what Magic Guard does, immune to burn and poison, immune to spikes, immune to rocks. This means, in tandem with leftovers, Clefable will gain health if it is double switched upon and has to switch out again, making it tough to wear down.

EVs & Nature:

252 HP & 252 SpD boosted by a Calm nature means Clefable is as specially bulky as it can possibly be. This is useful for, once again, getting on the field by shrugging off weak scalds and volt switches so it can start being annoying. It can even switch in on something like Heatran magma storm if it is at full HP, Magic Guard really makes Clefable deceptively bulky. Going this hard on SpD EVs is by no means necessary, I personally like having some Def EVs, so you withstand hits from the likes of Ferrothorn and Pursuit Tyranitar.

The first three move slots:

Seismic Toss, Soft-Boiled and Stealth Rock are all required for Clefable to function as a stealth rocker. Seismic Toss means it isn’t passive in the face of anything bar ghost types. Soft-Boiled allows it to stay healthy throughout long games, or just when stalling out a paralyzed opponent. Stealth Rock is what you want to get Clefable on the field for in the first place. It throws them up on just about anything not called Excadrill, who admittedly is near impossible for Clefable to handle if it isn’t running Knock Off in its final move slot.

The final move slot:

Clefables support move pool is… extensive to say the least. It gets just about any support move you could think of. Thunder Wave, Knock Off, Counter (for the aforementioned Excadrill, but just generally nice to keep physical attackers off your back), Healing Wish, it’s all there. I’m sure there’s a lot of other options with potential that I simply haven’t looked at yet. Look at what your team needs and Clefable will probably have access to it.

In short, the good:

• Gets on the field easily, due to;
• Decent bulk, bolstered by Magic Guard;
• Immune to hazards, status chip and weather chip, due to Magic Guard;
• Access to Stealth Rock and so many support moves that it can deal with any spinner that tries to get those rocks off the field after Clefable has put them down.

Other options:

I have seen talk of using Clefable as an offensive breaker with Life Orb or as a Calm Mind setup sweeper. The thing is, in my opinion anyway, Reuniclus does both of these better than Clefable every could. I would love to be proven wrong on this though and see someone come up with a niche for offensive Clefable.

That’s about all I have to say about Clefable currently, I hope this post has motivated you to atleast try and make use of Clefable in BW OU.

If I said anything stupid or just straight up forgot to mention something that you feel is worth mentioning, feel free to ping me on Discord.


Thanks guys :).

Bonus muffin pic for your time:

 

[peng]

i think the discord clef hype train is getting a bit ahead of itself but i do think its a solid rocker for hail- on everything else, i’m yet to be convinced

been using the above clef set a lot this week on an adapted version of ABR’s SPL hail (blissey -> clef with some other changes)



For hail, Clefable is a weather+hazard immune rocker, also one of the incredibly few hail heatran checks, invalidates poli/tenta/gastro, general annoyer mon that is just hard to remove. Bliss is obviously the first mon you’d look to here but being a mon that actively heals in hail while everything else gets chipped is huge. Not hating spikes also just eases a lot of pressure meaning drill only needs to spin on the odd occasion you want to use aboma, not every time you want to tank scalds which is often- residual damage pressure racks up super quick on blissey and spin drill often can’t keep up in longer games esp in hail

another reason clef is good on hail is that it removes the need for knock off to punish excadrill, so you get to use twave. This is rly rly big imo, since knock + stoss clef feels really abusable by offenses, and twave is great into those + helps support late game reun (para ttar / poli / jirachi / scizor = gg reun). I would worry that stoss/knock clef on sand is too abusable by offense, whilst stoss/twave struggles to punish the wear-and-tear resistant mons like drill. Hail support with twave 4th overcomes both of those issues nicely

i mean, its fine. The traits it has as a MG rocker with passable stats + recovery means it instantly has a place somewhere in bw, but for now at least i think its relegated to being a low B/C tier mon that boosts the consistency of hail teams. If SD glisc was better rn then maybe clef as a way to justify taking rocks from gliscor would be fine, but sd glisc doesnt feel worth it as a mon? Excited to see what people do with it, anyway

edit: maybe potential for stoss / knock / twave / soft with a different rocker but then you lose out on the role compression which is what makes you use clef in the first place? Idk

 

[Samu77]

I want to bring attention to something in the BW metagame that I believe is generally unhealthy in the current BW Metagame: Acupressure.

Hear me out, while Acupressure is an incredibly fickle move that sometimes does absolutely nothing for you, sometimes it does the exact opposite and wins the game on the spot depending on the boost, and while there's practically only one Pokemon that can feasibly use it in Tentacruel, I'd still say that it should not be allowed. There are several reasons as to why I believe Acupressure should be discussed.

1: It should arguably be banned on principle of Evasion Clause. While yes it is random that you not only have get the evasion boost but also dodge the subsequent attacks that follow just for it to be useful, it still throws a massive luck factor into whatever game it does crop into (let's not forget that Acupressure boosts every stat by two stages, so even 100% accurate moves still can have a hard time connecting). Combining this with Tentacruel's ease of being able to spam Substitute and Protect to not lose any HP while still rolling for chances for the opponent to miss can often mean that one Evasion boost can easily snowball into Tentacruel being able to stack even more boosts unless the opponent has a direct answer such as Thunder to bypass Accuracy checks.

2: While Evasion is definitely the most obvious sin that Acupressure holds, it is not the only one. While not as overtly broken as an Evasion boost, boosting Tentacruel's speed can arguably be even worse for the opponent depending on the situation. With a speed boost, suddenly Tentacruel is able to stall out even more Pokemon then before, such as being able to sub and protect on Alakazam and potentially stall it out of it's Psychic move PP. A fast Keldeo that had Scald that might have been able to check Tentacruel with a Burn after breaking it's Sub is suddenly unable to because Tentacruel will always outspeed and substitute on it. Would be checks like Max Speed Thundy suddenly get stalled out ect.

3: Acupressure can also just completely change the check that the opponent would have on their team based off of a whim. For example a Tentacruel might have not been able to consistently been able to take on a Power Whip Ferrothorn without risk of it losing valuable Substitute and Protect PP, however suddenly a defense increase means that Ferrothorn is completely unable to check it, similar occurrences can happen with boosting special attack. The ability to change checks in the middle of a match even if by complete random is utterly absurd, it undermines teambuilding against Tentacruel because by an unfortunate circumstance your opponent happened to pull a specific boost, a threat that you accounted for dismisses your ability to check it.

4: It's a Matchup fish. While I'm mainly talking about Tentacruel's absurd ability to completely dominate many rain teams it comes against, it arguably is completely useless in any other match. Sand alone can be hard for Tentacruel because of the necessity to win the weather war before even attempting to go for boosts, however Pokemon such as Jellicent and Gastrodon compound the issue by turning Tentacruel a liability because it can't fit toxic to beat these threats, even if it can stall them out. Haze Politoed (while incredibly rare) similarly invalidates your Tentacruel. Weirder options such as Psyshock Latios invalidates, Toxicroack can be impossible to beat. However the fact that Tentacruel can simply Substitute on opposing Tentacruel, all Keldeo and any non-Encore Politoed and proceed to win the game makes it a complete fish in a similar way Liepard was.

One might ask ""Why is it Acupressure here that's pushing this over the edge and not just Subtect Cruel?" While Subtect cruel in it's own right is a very strong Pokemon, it's the random aspect of Acupressure coupled with how much of a Matchup fish it can be that makes it so unhealth. Acupressure is incredibly undertested, teams that can reliably remove it's checks such as Jellicent or find more consistent ways for Tentacruel to go for multiple boosts are only the start of how optimized this Pokemon can become. While I'm not claiming that Acupressure Tentacruel is some broken, omnipresent force that will easily win any game it's brought into, it's not exactly healthy for the metagame in it's current state and I think it's worth discussing. Tentacruel by itself can already be an annoying Pokemon for some teams to deal with and I feel as if letting this Pokemon have access to a move that shifts it's checks or win games by one lucky turn isn't good for the metagame.

 

[MANNAT]

Hi there, I made a video on why gems were so powerful prior to being banned, would appreciate if you guys watched through the whole thing, commented, subbed, etc!

I wanted to use this video to kick off some discussion on replacement items to use on mons that were really good with gems before. I'll start off by talking about a replacement for water gem keld, the featured mon here.


Keldeo @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
Hidden Power: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SpA
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Surf

Modest specs keld is an absolute menace in rain, being able to do mind boggling things like OHKOing dnite after SR, 2HKOing tenta through rain dish + tect, 2HKOing ferro, etc. I prefer hp grass to options like ghost or icy wind because you already smoke latios with pump in rain and can pair this set with scarf sciz if you so desire, whereas hitting gastro and seis seems a lot more important given how common the slug sand team is rn. There's honestly not much to elaborate on this thing is just really strong and fun.


Volcarona @ Insect Plate
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Fire Blast
- Psychic

Volcarona is a menace as always, and modest + insect plate is enough juice on it to make it so that ttar still can't consistently deal with it without the aid of tanga berry. Dropping attack on ttar is really dogshit with how good reuni is right now in particular, so volc can capitalize on this with insect plate. This set has a 75% chance to OHKO 88 attack adamant ttar after SR and is pretty much just as good as gem volc at busting through ttar in particular. Obviously, this doesn't have the absurdity of being able to do stuff like muscling through spdef politoed and having odds to OHKO garchomp on the switch with a spike up, but it's still very strong and a good anti-sand pick.

Let me know what you guys have been using as replacement items on former gem abusers, I'd love to hear it!

 

[BeeOrSomething]

Adding on to Mannat's post:


Cloyster @ Never-Melt Ice / Hard Stone
Ability: Skill Link
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Shell Smash
- Icicle Spear
- Rock Blast
- Ice Shard

Alright this mon is an absolute menace, even without the ice gem or rock gem. After a shell smash, it is able to OHKO most things in the tier without hazards and with stealth rocks or maybe a spike there is so much more it can drop. The main way to stuff cloyster was with really fat water types (such as politoed, keldeo, jellicent, and rotom-w), heatran, magnezone, and priority via either A. dragonite extreme speed due to the superior priority compared to ice shard, or B. something like scizor bullet punch where the mon can easily stomach a boosted ice shard and kill back. As for the latter, there wasn't too much cloyster could do about this unless it was at high HP which is unreliable considering it's rocks weak, vulnerable to sand and spikes, has no recovery, takes a turn to boost, and drops its defensive stats using the boost. As for the former, however, that's where the item comes in. Previously, before the gem ban, it would slap on a gem suited to help break a defensive check as everyone I assume knows quite well considering the whole blow up in gem discussion leading to the subsequent ban as of recent. But now, after the gem ban, you may be thinking that cloyster is a lot worse off without its gem to blow through massively bulky resists like heatran and jellicent. However, that's where never melt ice and the rarer but arguably more devastating hard stone come in. Never-melt ice is to be expected, consistently boosts both icicle spear and ice shard without having to potentially burn the gem before getting max value, and also it's just generally great on a pokemon like this. The main item I wanted to focus on though is hard stone. Hard stone allows cloyster to break some of its defensive checks a lot easier, namely heatran, jellicent, politoed, as well as one I neglected to mention earlier, which is mamoswine that manages to stay at high health throughout the match (reason I neglected to mention earlier is because it's a pretty improbable thing to happen especially when you'll probably be using cloyster on setup spam HO along with things like dragonite and breloom where mamoswine will be switching in and taking hazards (and also an e-speed from nite)). Went on a bit of a mini-tangent there, so going back to hard stone cloyster. The main drawback of hard stone compared to the gems of the past is that you can no longer blow through heavy defense invested stuff like max phys def jelli or max phys def tran without many rounds of hazards (which can vary with play, hazard setter of choice, if they have a spinner, etc). However, hard stone still allows you to break the more standard sets (let's just take max phys def politoed, standard jelli, specially defensive tran, and specially defensive rotom-wash as cherry picked sets because I believe them to be the most common variants (maybe besides tran, tbh idk how much max hp tran is used compared to the offensive variant) of oft-used pokemon that happen to be good cloyster checks in a vacuum. Also I will list the calc's below.)

”Calcs"

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 210-250 (54.6 - 65.1%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Hard Stone Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Politoed: 255-300 (66.4 - 78.1%) -- approx. 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes


+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Jellicent: 280-330 (69.4 - 81.8%) -- approx. 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Hard Stone Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Jellicent: 335-395 (83.1 - 98%) -- approx. 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 230-275 (59.5 - 71.2%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes
+2 252+ Atk Hard Stone Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 280-330 (72.5 - 85.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 20 Def Rotom-Wash: 225-270 (74.2 - 89.1%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Hard Stone Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 20 Def Rotom-Wash: 270-320 (89.1 - 105.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also these calcs may seem a little redundant or unnecessary, the point was to show that even after the gem ban cloyster can still do the same wild stuff as before the gem ban, contrary to I'm sure quite a few peoples' beliefs, just with a round or two of hazards more compared to the gem variants which aren’t hard to grab if other members on your team demand some attention from cloyster’s nemeses.

Main reason I neglected to mention the fact that a lot of Cloyster run rapid spin over rock blast is that I wanted to put a lot of focus on hard stone, as I'm sure you could tell if you read the post.

(I may have rambled on for too long lol, I just really wanted to discuss the broken-ness that is shell smash cloyster.)

Oh and one last thing: don't run jolly cloyster please, adamant is the only thing you should be using. The only time I would ever run jolly is for a joke (emphasis on JOKE) set with liechi berry and natural gift to lure scarf keldeo.

 

[IUPLC]

Some Gem abuser alternatives:


Volcarona @ Life Orb
Ability: Flame Body
EVs: 72 HP / 252 SpA / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain

Life Orb anything dies pretty quickly, but the power boost in tandem with possible Giga Drain healing makes Volc's longevity just enough to get the KOs it needs. It's flawed, but there are some disgusting calcs on moves beyond Bug Buzz that add some payoff to the costly HP loss.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 356-421 (110.2 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Fire Blast vs. 24 HP / 104 SpD Thundurus-Therian in Rain: 208-246 (68.1 - 80.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 172 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 335-398 (83.1 - 98.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Garchomp: 337-398 (94.3 - 111.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

The main drawback of Giga Drain on non-LO (beyond being walled by Tenta) is that it fails to KO a full HP Keldeo, so the healing of Giga Drain and the sizeable power boost of LO go hand in hand. Giga Volc in general has the added benefit of being able to set up on Jellicent with ease as well as completely flooring Gastrodon. Additionaly, Giga Drain (regardless of item choice) helps Volcarona beat Alakazam lacking Thunder Wave.



Latios @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Surf

The loss of Dragon Gem hurts, but now Latios can combine the flexibility Colbur Berry grants with the prolonged threat Calm Mind makes it. It can still beat Tyranitar 1v1 at only +1 and Stealth Rock on the field. Even min rolls on Surf and Draco Meteor will combine to KO 252/172 Tar after rocks, and without crits Latios takes a maximum of 61% from Crunch (assuming Colbur Berry is intact).



Terrakion @ Payapa Berry
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Quick Attack

The loss of the ability to burst through bulky fighting resists such as Reuniclus or Gliscor hurts, but Payapa has always been an option available to give Terrakion a 1-use ticket to avoid being revenge-killed by Alakazam. It can be difficult to maintain this if hazards are down AND its defense has dropped from using Close Combat, but for what its worth:
252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. -1 4 HP / 0 Def Payapa Berry Terrakion: 220-261 (67.9 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

At +2 Terrakion 2HKOs with Quick Attack, but at +0 Close Combat + Quick Attack KOs Zam. Payapa Berry also lets Terrakion more consistently check Volcarona as Psychic is its strongest option against it other than Life Orb Giga Drain (which will not KO even after taking SR damage twice in Sand).

 

[Azure_Crystal]

Adding a bit on to BeeOrSomething response...

Cloyster has to be one of the most Game-ending Sweepers in OU imo. All it needs is a +2 boost which isn't that hard since it can switch-into common Physical Grounds in the tier like Lands, Chomp, and Exca with Cloysters base High Defense and Shell Smash because not alot of mons that prevent Cloyster from doing that before it happens. Cloyster is the King of HO and one of the Sweepers that was responsible of the recent BW Gem Ban as with Ice / Rock Gem, alot of supposed Cloyster Checks/Counters likely dropped.

Calcs:

+2 252+ Atk Ice Gem Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 295-345 (91 - 106.4%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Ice Gem Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 20 Def Rotom-Wash: 250-295 (82.5 - 97.3%) -- approx. 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Rock Gem Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 124 Def Jellicent: 410-485 (101.7 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Rock Gem Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Heatran: 340-405 (88 - 104.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Now there are alot of other intersting Calcs with +2 Gem Cloy but I think you got the Point. Gem Ban, well deserved.


Now, after looking at replays of Dice signature Hail HO Team with Lands / Aboma / DNite / Volc / Cloy / Jirachi he used to Success, I had a Idea of something similar in-vein of Dice's 6.

Double Ghost Hail HO
---Click here for Hyperlink---

• Though niche, Froslass is actually good here and has rare trails like being able to set Spikes and block spin at the same time. Icy Wind slows down faster opponents, Taunt to prevent other leads from setting Hazards, and Destiny Bond to take down opponents with it. Simple, Basic Lead.

• This Lands set is designed to set up Rocks along with Froslass' Spikes for wearing down mons for teammates to take advantage of. Imprison is an interesting move here, as it prevents slower mons from getting their Rocks with Imprison sealing that move. Lastly just to go out with the Boom, Explosion on Lands can do heavy damage to especially the Neutral targets while OHKO Lands itself. This provides safe switch-ins and good Momentum. Mental Herb on Lands is an interesting tech here, as it prevents Taunts from Faster Leads so it can set Rocks / seal there Hazards can get damage off before dying.

• Mix Abomasnow goes simple here, the Main purpose of the Combo of EQ + HP Fire is to just chip/weaken every Steel that resists its STABs. Wood Hammer and Blizzard are base 120 moves that hit mons that are weak to it like Ttar and Politoed both being weak to Abomasnow's STAB respectively. With its arguably natural Fraility, having Focus Sash allows it to take any one such hit and to deal it back. EVs wise, it outspeeds everything up to Special Defensive Wash and Standard Jelli while the rest of its EVs are dumped into Attack and Special Attack.

Note: Snow Warning is nice here since it disrupts other Weathers like Sand and Rain and chips everything that isn't Immune.

• Jelli is perfect mon here as it strengthens the Rain MU, provides another Fast Taunt / WoW user, and acts as another spinblocker just to keep Rocks and Spikes Froslass and Jirachi layed down. It also covers the Keldeo weakness well. Air Balloon is a nice tech on HO as with Jelli, it can switch-in on EQ / help spinblock Excadrill better. Standard EV Spread : ]

• The 2nd to Last mon being Cloyster as the WinCon of the Team. EVs allow it to outpace Scarf Lands with a Shell Smash Boost and every other scarfer above Scarf Lands with a 2nd Boost which is usually hard to do. The Rest is put into large amounts of Power and bulk. After the BW Gem Ban, Hard Stone became one of my Favorite items to use on Cloyster because it retains the boost to Rock Blast unlike the Rock Gem one time boost, now with Hard Stone having a calculated BP of 30 and still hits stuff like Heatran & Waters hard with Shell Smash Boost.

• Jirachi is a study Psychic & Dragon resist the team needs and has good utility for a Scarfer with Trick & Healing Wish. Perfect for HO Teams, Choice Scarf allows for this team's speed control, otherwise the team would be slow. Trick can cripple a defensive or offensive Sweeper if Scarf isn't necessarily needed and HealingWish can bring back a teammate who's been inflicted status and or @ low HP. So just a solid utility Scarfer with a good Speed benchmark allows it to outpace everything up to Scarf Lands in EVs so it can either Pivot out with U-turn or pick it off with Iron Head's 60% flinch rate. Ice Punch > Trick if you want.

Well, thats just about it. Appreciate the help from BeeOrSomething to building the Team.

Have a great day everyone!

 

[Soiramio3000]

I believe that there should be a rule against riolu's prankster+copycat+roar spam.

this tactic causes THE EXACT SAME PROBLEMS WITH THE PRANKSTER+ASSIST+ROAR spam which caused the move assist to be banned.

according to smogon modderators themselves the move assist was banned because that spam was " the definition of uncompetitive." it does not have"skillfull counterplay" "it removes player interaction" and also"giving phasing moves priority in conjunction with hazards being set creates an uncompetitive dynamic in the eyes of some players".

the copycat spam and the assist spam cause the exact same problems.

while the copycat spam is easier to counter compared to the assist spam, there is a major difference between them:the rest of your team.
the assist spam practically forces you to make a bad team since you HAVE to make sure that there will not be any moves that can be selected with assist.meaning that once you manage to counter it you have essentially won.
the copycat spam by the other hand only forces you to use one slot in your team for a hazard setter and an othe one for riolu.
the other 4 slots can be whatever you want to.

now that I explained about the problem here are some suggesstions on how to deal with it(if you have better solutions just mention them):

1. ban copycat
2. ban riolu
3. ban the combination of prankster and copycat
4. ban the combination of copycat and roar
5. ban the combination of prankster copycat and roar(probably the best solution,forcing the player to pick 2 out of 3 seems less strict)

 

[peng]

Riolu discussion is welcomed because sure there are similarities with Assist, but to me the consistency/potency are nothing alike


I can say now though that its not a priority for us to look at. Its nowhere near as consistent as the Assist team which didn't require prior set-up to begin calling Roar/Whirlwind, was able to beat most Priority moves bar ESpeed Dragonite, wasn't affected by Protect, and had the option of late-game NP Dark Pulse Liepard to break would-be counters like Reuniclus. Riolu by comparison is a frail Pokemon which needs to run Leftovers rather than Eviolite to be remotely useful vs Sand, needs a highly situational set-up turn that the opponent can interfere with before Copycat can call Roar, is shut down by any priority over base 60 and also is shut down by Protect. Riolu also has no real offensive pressure to tackle hazard-immune mons in the way that Liepard did.

Its a cheesy strategy but based on what i've seen all major team archetypes carry several options to stop the endless Roar spam:

1. Protect users - Excadrill, Gliscor, Heatran, Politoed, Tentacruel, Breloom, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Jirachi, Gastrodon, Terrakion
2. Most priority - Breloom, some Scizor, Mamoswine, Cloyster, Dragonite, Terrakion, Endure Garchomp
3. Hazard immunities - Reuniclus, Alakazam, effectively Gliscor and Excadrill

...whilst you can also interact during the game to prevent Riolu ever setting up:

1. Avoid clicking Roar/Whirlwind if you have it yourself
2. Hard punish Riolu on switch-in or the initial Roar turn - Riolu is frail af

Right now, Riolu is a terrible terrible gimmick that may catch people out once but you really shouldn’t be losing to this once you know what it wants to do. Not only that but it is shut down by a huge number of incredibly common pokemon listed above, so even if you play bad vs it and let it set up Roar then you really should have options to stop it on the vast majority of structures. Its nowhere near as anti-interactive as Liepard Assist.

 

[Soiramio3000]

Riolu discussion is welcomed because sure there are similarities with Assist, but to me the consistency/potency are nothing alike


I can say now though that its not a priority for us to look at. Its nowhere near as consistent as the Assist team which didn't require prior set-up to begin calling Roar/Whirlwind, was able to beat most Priority moves bar ESpeed Dragonite, wasn't affected by Protect, and had the option of late-game NP Dark Pulse Liepard to break would-be counters like Reuniclus. Riolu by comparison is a frail Pokemon which needs to run Leftovers rather than Eviolite to be remotely useful vs Sand, needs a highly situational set-up turn that the opponent can interfere with before Copycat can call Roar, is shut down by any priority over base 60 and also is shut down by Protect. Riolu also has no real offensive pressure to tackle hazard-immune mons in the way that Liepard did.

Its a cheesy strategy but based on what i've seen all major team archetypes carry several options to stop the endless Roar spam:

1. Protect users - Excadrill, Gliscor, Heatran, Politoed, Tentacruel, Breloom, Keldeo, Thundurus-T, Jirachi, Gastrodon, Terrakion
2. Most priority - Breloom, some Scizor, Mamoswine, Cloyster, Dragonite, Terrakion, Endure Garchomp
3. Hazard immunities - Reuniclus, Alakazam, effectively Gliscor and Excadrill

...whilst you can also interact during the game to prevent Riolu ever setting up:

1. Avoid clicking Roar/Whirlwind if you have it yourself
2. Hard punish Riolu on switch-in or the initial Roar turn - Riolu is frail af

Right now, Riolu is a terrible terrible gimmick that may catch people out once but you really shouldn’t be losing to this once you know what it wants to do. Not only that but it is shut down by a huge number of incredibly common pokemon listed above, so even if you play bad vs it and let it set up Roar then you really should have options to stop it on the vast majority of structures. Its nowhere near as anti-interactive as Liepard Assist.

The fact that it is easier to deal with is irrelevanylt since not all teams run priority moves and even if they do there is no guarantee that the pokemon running them will show up early enough to put an end in the spam.
Some of your pokemon can still die or at least take q ton of damage from stealth rock and they will not be able to do anything against it.

Also your argument for the riolu's frailty is incorrect.
First of all there is no guarantee that the enemy team will have a sandstorm setter and it is not like tyranitar can not be defeated with a simple mach punch from breloom.
And the sandstorm can be removed with a drought or drizzle user meaning that riolu CAN run eviolite.(every single time I used this tactic I ran eviolite).

 

[Monai]

The fact that it is easier to deal with is irrelevanylt since not all teams run priority moves and even if they do there is no guarantee that the pokemon running them will show up early enough to put an end in the spam.
Some of your pokemon can still die or at least take q ton of damage from stealth rock and they will not be able to do anything against it.

Also your argument for the riolu's frailty is incorrect.
First of all there is no guarantee that the enemy team will have a sandstorm setter and it is not like tyranitar can not be defeated with a simple mach punch from breloom.
And the sandstorm can be removed with a drought or drizzle user meaning that riolu CAN run eviolite.(every single time I used this tactic I ran eviolite).

What you run is not reflective of what's effective. Riolu can pull Tyranitar in to change its favorable rain/sun with sand and be put on a timer again. Protect and Priority is also extremely commonplace in BW, more so than pretty much any other generation, so running into neither of those is extremely rare. Even in the case that Breloom Mach Punch or Cloyster Ice Shard or whatever the fuck doesn't kill Riolu, Riolu's copycat streak will be broken and it will have to take another attack to begin chaining copycats again. Which it cannot do because Riolu is quite objectively frail.

 

[Soiramio3000]

What you run is not reflective of what's effective. Riolu can pull Tyranitar in to change its favorable rain/sun with sand and be put on a timer again. Protect and Priority is also extremely commonplace in BW, more so than pretty much any other generation, so running into neither of those is extremely rare. Even in the case that Breloom Mach Punch or Cloyster Ice Shard or whatever the fuck doesn't kill Riolu, Riolu's copycat streak will be broken and it will have to take another attack to begin chaining copycats again. Which it cannot do because Riolu is quite objectively frail.

even if it is an inneffective tactic it still needs to be banned for being too anti-competitive.
there are pokemon like volcarona that can die by stealth rock in just 3 turns and have no way of fighting back.
let's not forget that this riolu does not NEED to be used early in the battle, it can always be used as a late game cleaner after its counters have been dealt with.

 

[Samu77]

I have personally never seen a serious team in modern BW OU that doesn't run protect or priority, almost every rain uses it on either Politoed or Tentacruel, Sand uses it with things like Glisc and Excadrill and even wears down Riolu through said sand and HO is loaded with priority. Unlike Liepard, where protect was an inconvinience, albeit a significant one, Riolu get's completely shut down by it. I'd honestly say that not having one Pokemon on your team without protect or priority that is hard-dealt with by Riolu is poor teambuilding given the strength of said moves and I would say deserves to be punished for. I wouldn't say that Riolu is competitive by any stretch, but I think it's incredibly inoffensive given how when loading a Riolu team somebody is basically banking on the opponent not having either protect or priority, which is an unviable strategy in the current metagame.

The argument of Riolu being used as a late game cleaner after it's checks have been removed is somewhat negligible in my opinion. If the player has the means with which to deal with Riolu when it's seen in team preview then it is the players job to navigate their team so that Riolu is never given the chance to wipe the remainder of the team.

 

[Ununhexium]

Riolu also can’t kill the last Pokémon with hazard shuffling, which is a big issue if you’re tryna use it as a late game cleaner

 

[Soiramio3000]

it still needs to be nerfed.
didn't you read the part where volcarona can die with no way of fighting back?
it isn't much different than banning arena trap.

 

[Lumi_Nati 31]

it still needs to be nerfed.
didn't you read the part where volcarona can die with no way of fighting back?
it isn't much different than banning arena trap.

Just because volc is quad weak to rock doesn't mean that it's a problem because of a few reasons:

1. Volc is mostly seen on HO teams. These types of teams have at least 2 priority users, and usually they have 3 or even 4. This means that the odds of volcarona forced in by roar/whirlwind more than once before you can break the copycat chain are incredibly small

2. You're assuming that riolu gets the copycat chain going in the first place, but it should realistically never happen on the types of teams volc finds itself in. These teams never use whirlwind or roar to begin with, which means that the only way the copycat chain can be set up is by the opponent using it and then hard switching riolu in. Against an HO team, doing this is basically impossible due to how powerful the pokemon on these types of teams are. Riolu should always get 2 hit KO'd by them even without a boost (even when taking eviolite) and they often use a spinner meaning that you can sometimes spin the rocks away before the copycat chain can even start.

3. Even if we disregard all of the previous points, were still talking about just 1 pokemon (maybe 2 if we choose to consider moltres on rain but that mon is very niche). I don't think I've ever heard someone say that magnezone should be banned just because of how well it traps ferro and skarm (among other things), two pokemon which are more relevant than volcarona in the current metagame imo and magnezone deals with them much better than riolu deals with volcarona.

Hopefully this (combined with the explanations of everyone else who commented on the subject) is enough to explain why the combined of copycat+prankster shouldn't be banned despite being somewhat uncompetitive. Uncompetitive things should only be banned if they have a negative effect on the metagame, but copycat + roar doesn't even affect the metagame in my opinion because, just like everyone else said, every competitively viable team can deal with it in some way(priority, protect, magic guard, or preventing the chain before it can even happen in the first place).

 

[Soiramio3000]

Just because volc is quad weak to rock doesn't mean that it's a problem because of a few reasons:

1. Volc is mostly seen on HO teams. These types of teams have at least 2 priority users, and usually they have 3 or even 4. This means that the odds of volcarona forced in by roar/whirlwind more than once before you can break the copycat chain are incredibly small

2. You're assuming that riolu gets the copycat chain going in the first place, but it should realistically never happen on the types of teams volc finds itself in. These teams never use whirlwind or roar to begin with, which means that the only way the copycat chain can be set up is by the opponent using it and then hard switching riolu in. Against an HO team, doing this is basically impossible due to how powerful the pokemon on these types of teams are. Riolu should always get 2 hit KO'd by them even without a boost (even when taking eviolite) and they often use a spinner meaning that you can sometimes spin the rocks away before the copycat chain can even start.

3. Even if we disregard all of the previous points, were still talking about just 1 pokemon (maybe 2 if we choose to consider moltres on rain but that mon is very niche). I don't think I've ever heard someone say that magnezone should be banned just because of how well it traps ferro and skarm (among other things), two pokemon which are more relevant than volcarona in the current metagame imo and magnezone deals with them much better than riolu deals with volcarona.

Hopefully this (combined with the explanations of everyone else who commented on the subject) is enough to explain why the combined of copycat+prankster shouldn't be banned despite being somewhat uncompetitive. Uncompetitive things should only be banned if they have a negative effect on the metagame, but copycat + roar doesn't even affect the metagame in my opinion because, just like everyone else said, every competitively viable team can deal with it in some way(priority, protect, magic guard, or preventing the chain before it can even happen in the first place).

I am not assuming that riolu gets a copycat chain,I know that it absolutely can do it because all it has to do is to switch to something that can't kill it while holding eviolite.
what if dies to sandstorm?the damage it will deal before it dies will still be pretty big.
if you manage to set 3 layers of spikes there is a good chance you will either kill at least one opponent or will leave them severely injured.
and again THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT THE PRIORITY USER WILL SHOW UP EARLY ENOUGH.

also magnezone is bad comparison since having a steel trapper actually benefits the metagame and does not reduce player interaction that much.
does riolu offer any benefit the metagame?nope,it just harms it by being anti-competitive.
pokemon that take 25% from stealth rock can still suffer a lot from this spam.

 

[Samu77]

it still needs to be nerfed.
didn't you read the part where volcarona can die with no way of fighting back?
it isn't much different than banning arena trap.

This is not true

Using Volcarona as the player makes it your responsibility to keep Hazards off and position yourself well. Teams like Smurf were very good at this (still can be, although needs more testing now that gems are banned). When gems were still allowed Volcarona was a Pokemon that it was absolutely worth it to keep rocks off to give it a shot at sweeping the opponents teams. Having "Volcarona die with no way of fighting back" is a skill issue. With the right support/matchup/coverage move Volcarona can destroy a significant amount of an opponents team, this is completely different from Riolu, who needs just as much support to have hazards up as Volcarona does to keep hazards off, and statistically is unlikely ever to accomplish much in any given match even if it has that support.

Don't even pretend that this is anything like Arena Trap. Arena Trap was absurdly broken ability that made every team had to walk on eggshells just to have a chance of not rolling over to it. It's an insanely chokeholding ability where even if you had the tools for counterplay in your teambuilder still required ridiculously precise play so as not to get completely dominated by whatever broken threat your opponent had. Comparing a silly ladder gimmick to one of the most restricting playstyles of it's time is just dumb.

I am not assuming that riolu gets a copycat chain,I know that it absolutely can do it because all it has to do is to switch to something that can't kill it while holding eviolite.
what if dies to sandstorm?the damage it will deal before it dies will still be pretty big.
if you manage to set 3 layers of spikes there is a good chance you will either kill at least one opponent or will leave them severely injured.
and again THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT THE PRIORITY USER WILL SHOW UP EARLY ENOUGH.

also magnezone is bad comparison since having a steel trapper actually benefits the metagame and does not reduce player interaction that much.
does riolu offer any benefit the metagame?nope,it just harms it by being anti-competitive.
pokemon that take 25% from stealth rock can still suffer a lot from this spam.

You are assuming that Riolu get's a copycat chain, Riolu doesn't automatically set up three layers of spikes and rocks up when it drops on the field. You as the player should be preventing this situation by either A: making sure the opponents hazard setter doesn't have the chance to set up rocks by keeping it bombarded with offensive pressure or by Taunt or B: simply using Rapid Spin. All of this has to occur before Riolu get's in and get's a chance to annihilate you. Don't also pretend like Riolu can just "survive hits". It's still weak to spikes and sandstorm, by the time you've gotten it in, done hazard damage to it and have hit it with a move it's so close to dying (assuming it already hasn't) that it's "ability to survive hits" is almost nonexistent. The damage it deals will NOT be pretty big in this case if it's dying to sandstorm because it's already almost dead from the time it starts setting up it's chain.

It's true that Riolu does not benefit the metagame as well, however by dying on this hill that something should be banned (that also isn't being used at all) because it doesn't benefit the game makes it so that I expect you to want everything banned that doesn't benefit it. I think Kyurem-Black is a Pokemon that doesn't benefit the game at all, and is much more impactful then Riolu. Riolu is an easier target to ban because it's strategy is silly nonsense, but it's still not really fair to take this branding iron to it instead of other things that might actually harm the metagame, whereas Riolu won't for a long time, if ever.

 

[FNH]

it still needs to be nerfed.
didn't you read the part where volcarona can die with no way of fighting back?
it isn't much different than banning arena trap.

I'm sorry to say this, but, while riolu can be at times an annoying cheese strategy to face, when considering the metagame at large, it really is balance wise a non issue, so it's best to drop the matter at this point.

 

[Soiramio3000]

why don't BW forums have a "creative sets" thread?
because the magnezone set I made up is pretty good and I want to share it.

 

[peng]

why don't BW forums have a "creative sets" thread?
because the magnezone set I made up is pretty good and I want to share it.

Just post it here

 

[Soiramio3000]

I call the set I wanted to share "bulky magnezone".

the set is this:

EVs:
252-hp
68-def
168-spdef

NATURE:calm(-atk +sp.def).

ITEM:
choice specs

moveset:
actually the moveset depends on what you are trying to do.(it is not like its movepool is that versitile).
-thunderbolt
-hidden power fire/ice
-flash canon
-volt switch/signal beam

the reason I am sharing this is more about the EV spread rather than the moveset.

the choice specs totally make up for the lack of sp.atk investment.
the defensive investment allows it to survive a lots of attacks that would other wise kill including a STAB fireblast as long as the attacker does not have a benefitial nature.
the 68 def EVs alone let it to survive a choice band boosted super power from scizor even without hp investment.

the signal beam is meant for the celebi which resists thunderwave and has a 4 times weakness to bug.this set is a guaranteed 2HKO as long as the celebi does not have hidden power ground.

too bad that this set can not survive any earthquakes.

EDIT:I accidentally wrote hidden power ground instead of hidden power ice.